If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

[VP89]

No because he was backed and then his targets were fail.

I'm curious about this concept.

There are obviously targets that are the manager's ones.. and targets that are scouting efforts. For example Di Maria - was he proposed to LVG who then said "yeah, OK then" or did LVG go out of his way and say "go for this guy for me" like he must have done with Schweinstiger?

With Jose for example, take Bailey and Lindelof as examples. He went out of his way to say he knew Lindelof particularly well and knew his mentality when he signed him. Whereas Bailey could have been a scouting effort?

I'm unsure but I struggle to believe the concept that LVG and Jose both failed in the transfer market here because of their own mis-judgement alone. Rather I feel they must have overestimated the quality of our convoluted scouting set up which is beyond shite.

Particularly Jose who made so many terrific gem purchases over his career at every single club and suddenly fails here. It doesn't really add up.

 

[Enigma_87]

That wasn't the question though. The question was whether we would be challenging for the league. Liverpool and City being as good as they are has rendered the whole debacle irrelevant.

I was all for backing Jose last summer, and was in general a Jose fan. It was criminal that Ed decided he knew better and refused to sanction his targets, after which Jose basically became a dead man walking.

But the question wasn't "would we be third?" The question was "would we challenge?" We might well be sat in third right now on 70-odd points as you say, but would you call being 25 points off the top challenging for the league? Because I certainly wouldn't. Regardless of Jose's targets last summer, City and Liverpool are on another planet right now.

Agreed.

Although being third to this City/Pool side is no shame really. If we did finish 3rd I could easily see him getting yet another season at helm. Which in hindsight would be better than the Ole experiment we're about to undertake.

 

[Jonno]

It would have been an expensive bill, it would have cost a lot of money, but he is one of the most successful managers in history and if he had got his way last summer and again this coming summer, I think we’d be up there competing.

The football wouldn’t have been great and all of our team would have cost an absolute fortune, but at least the guy has a specific plan and it’s proven to work. I think we’d be racing City and Liverpool for a top 2 next season.

Sadly last summer the board having given him a long term contract, u-turned on his transfer policy, half way up the ladder, and pulled it away from him.

WHY did this board decide mourinho and his policies and strategies were the way forward, only to change their mind after 700m?! If you’re going to go with him, stick with him.

Now it will probably cost us close to a billion to re-build instead of the 300m mourinho would have needed

 

[RuudTom83]

I think the problems lie deeper than just a few transfers.

But the issues Jose saw and wanted changing will have to be changed eventually...he just wanted them to happen sooner.

 

[Lentwood]

As usual people jump in and miss the point....

Jose might have been given some money and allowed to choose some of the players but clearly, in his 3rd season in particular, our Board did not buy into what Jose wanted to do

What most posters will NEVER understand about football is the importance of the collective. Mlst posters experiences of football management come from Championship Manager or FIFA where players are ranked on their attributes and its simply a case of choosing the best rated

Its safe to assume that there are a handful of special players in the world. Messi, Ronaldo....potentially a few others. Beyond that, there are literally thousands of footballers who on any given day in any given team are broadly similar in terms of raw ability.

The key to a successful team is NOT necessarily trying to identify the eleven men who are best at kicking a football around on a training pitch. Its about identifying players with the right attitude, hunger, desire, will to win, determination, bravery, confidence and mental resilience AND even more importantly, bringing these players together as a collective unit that operate as a sum greater than their parts. Jose mastered this, in particular at Inter and Porto. Klopp and Pep have now mastered this at Liverpool and City.

What we have is a collection of players who have been thrown together. Some have the talent but not the mental attributes. Some dont have the talent. Many of them just don't complement each other on the football pitch in terms of style. They actually combine to be LESS than the sum of their parts

Until we have football men running the club, who appreciate the above, we can throw all the cash we like at individuals, we are going nowhere. Jose understood this. LvG understood this. I think Ole and Mike Phelan understand it. The problem is, I am not sure the real decision-makers do

 

[Morpheus 7]

Jose brought in Pogba, Miki, Bailly and Sanchez. He fell out with everyone of them and dropped them eventually. We wanted to buy Neymar, Boateng, Willian and Bale. Aye Jose would have solved it with money.

 

[WensleyMU]

Right? But they did, hence why we wouldn't be challenging.

Van Dijk was the final piece of the jigsaw. Yeah, put Harry Maguire in this team - but we'd still look creatively bankrupt going forward. Liverpool had a good team for him to step into, and that's the difference.

A half decent CB though would likely have helped prevent at least some of the absolutely disasters we had defensively though. And a decent wide man would have added a new, much needed dimension to our attack.

Who knows how many points they could have gained or prevented, but I would be very confident in saying we would be in a much better place just now.

 

[broccoli]

In his first Chelsea stint he could hand-pick the cream of Portuguese talent, hand-pick the cream of Spurs or any other Premier league club with just a phone call, could drop a new £50 million signing after their first 5 minutes of game time and demand a fresh £50 million for a new player to replace them... All this and more yet still couldn't last more than 3 seasons.

Jose is a brilliant brilliant manager for an underdog club but has been found out at elite clubs. His methods don't work for elite clubs who expect winning and at least a small measure of excitement. His ego outgrew his overhyped talent.

Roma, Lyon and Celtic are his true level of club where he could win a Europa league at one of those clubs, by signing a handful of 30 year old Portuguese and Italian defenders on massive salaries, and park the bus all the way to winning a Europa title for them.

Complete bollocks. His Real Madrid was one of the most devastating attacks on the decade. Take a look at how they fared before and after his reign.

Massive salaries you say? Perhaps you mean average English players like Young, Lingard, Jones etc?

I swear some of you would be better just admit you hate the man and be honest with it like "i just have an irracional dislike for the man and err, it's his fault my life is like this!"

 

[SirAF]

Yes.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Feck no and feck the Caf obsession with that toxic cnut.

Well said.

 

[2 man midfield]

A half decent CB though would likely have helped prevent at least some of the absolutely disasters we had defensively though. And a decent wide man would have added a new, much needed dimension to our attack.

Who knows how many points they could have gained or prevented, but I would be very confident in saying we would be in a much better place just now.

Of course. More signings are better than fewer, and I’ve got no doubts we’d be better off points wise, and who knows, maybe even in 3rd place and looking forward to champions league football next year.

But that isn’t challenging. We’d be way off the mark.

 

[Hulksmash]

Mourinho wanted bale, enough said.
His football is out dated he needs to change his style

 

[The Nani]

I strongly maintain that this was a missed opportunity for us to get back to challenging for the top honours and time will show whether this is correct.

Pretty sure if he was backed with first team improvements he would have challenged the title this year.

Time shall prove him right.

Scary culty.

 

[The Hacker]

No, I don’t think so. I do t actually think those players exist anymore anyway. Players who will play the defensive, slow and ‘wait for a mistake’ football he prefers. football has moved on but he didn’t move with it.

 

[broccoli]

Of course. More signings are better than fewer, and I’ve got no doubts we’d be better off points wise, and who knows, maybe even in 3rd place and looking forward to champions league football next year.

But that isn’t challenging. We’d be way off the mark.

And how would you know that? Last year he got you 2nd place when the players and club were still behind him. If the team was upgraded most likely the ambient in the dressing room wouldnt have exploded and you could very well be fighting for the title. Liverpool got one key addition and went from 3rd to possível champions.

 

[Canagel]

The Mourinho revisionism well I guess his signings have been proven to be success stories so we might be onto something.

 

[2 man midfield]

And how would you know that? Last year he got you 2nd place when the players and club were still behind him. If the team was upgraded most likely the ambient in the dressing room wouldnt have exploded and you could very well be fighting for the title. Liverpool got one key addition and went from 3rd to possível champions.

I don’t, it’s obviously an educated guess. But that’s all anyone has, and to be honest I think mine is a lot more realistic than one saying we’d somehow find ourselves challenging two teams on course for 97 and 98 points.

 

[WensleyMU]

Of course. More signings are better than fewer, and I’ve got no doubts we’d be better off points wise, and who knows, maybe even in 3rd place and looking forward to champions league football next year.

But that isn’t challenging. We’d be way off the mark.

I suspect we would have improved on 81 points. By how many, I don't know.

 

[Stactix]

This.

Jose wouldn't have built a pretty side, but an effective side. He has the track record for it. He would have not build an empire like Fergie and his character would bound to create rift with supporters, board and players in the long term.

All in all he didn't have the players for it and last season he didn't have the backing of it, so naturally he was bound to fail.

He has a track record in the short term at clubs, usually season 2 was the height and season 3 the cracks appeared in our case clearly defined before the fecking season even began.

His longest ever season at a club is 3 years and 1 month, that was at Chelsea in his first stint. He could of been given 500mill in the summer and I doubt things would of been much different.

When he first came it was all 'It'll be different here because Utd is his dream yadayada.'

 

[Casanova85]

No. Best case scenario (if backed-up in summer 2018): 3rd (behind City and Pool), knocked-out by PSG in the Round of 16, probable FA Cup final.

And we all know what happened in autumn/late 2018 when he wasn't backed-up.

 

[Stactix]

Well I understand it perfectly well.
He knows what is required to win competitions and has a proven track record for doing just that in Portugal, Spain, Italy and of course here three times in the PL on two occasions with Chelsea.

And he was on schedule to do the same with United, getting us to 2nd last season. I don’t agree with those who say it was a fluke. The records show that we finished second in his second season.
Success is never a straight line and there are always set backs and it has to be said that this season was a set back. But there are a range of mitigating circumstances for that including his mismanagement.
The fact that he was not supported by the club effectively made him a dead man walking and the majority of the players stopped working for him as a result.
Nevertheless, I strongly maintain that this was a missed opportunity for us to get back to challenging for the top honours and time will show whether this is correct.

He wasn't on schedule though, has he ever improved on the 2nd season at any club?
His longest tenure at any club is 3 seasons 1month, largely down to him.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

He has a track record in the short term at clubs, usually season 2 was the height and season 3 the cracks appeared in our case clearly defined before the fecking season even began.

His longest ever season at a club is 3 years and 1 month, that was at Chelsea in his first stint. He could of been given 500mill in the summer and I doubt things would of been much different.

When he first came it was all 'It'll be different here because Utd is his dream yadayada.'

This. He built his title winning team in season 2 as he always does.

This time City were just too good for him. His ideals of perisic and Willians may have gotten us closer to a title challenge than being out of it by December - however there is absolutely 0% chance that anything would have happened at season 3.

 

[Roboc7]

To be successful Mourinho would have had to pretty much start from scratch, he was already two years in and traditionally only last about three seasons.

There was no plus side to keeping Mourinho or giving him more money to waste on short term signings and new deadwood just to finish in the top 4.

To an extent he fulfilled his brief, took us from 5th to a points tally that could have won the league and a couple of trophies. But Pep built a much better team, one he couldn’t compete with.

After that it was going to go downhill, even when he’s more successful he can only keep it all together for that long.

 

[Reiver]

In terms of titles and Champions League? No, I don't think we'd be challenging.On the other hand, I think we'd secure top 4 but I wouldn't call that challenging.
I think he was backed to some extent though. Yes the Board could have done more. Something changed in his last close/pre-season and they got call cold feet about continuing to back him. Its led to this whole season being a write off and worsening the mess we were already in.

 

[Buster15]

He wasn't on schedule though, has he ever improved on the 2nd season at any club?
His longest tenure at any club is 3 seasons 1month, largely down to him.

Scary culty.

We can't all be wrong.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yes. I think we would. He would've lasted 4 seasons maximum though. But if we'd given him full backing we'd be in a better position.

 

[Casanova85]

What about Chelsea 2015-16? Wasn't he backed-up? Didn't he retain most of the 2015 Champions squad?

 

[RedDevil@84]

The club lost the plot when they put pressure on him to play the United way. He couldn't. He didnt know how. He tried to adapt and we got a football style which was crap in attack and defense.
And he lost the plot when he started to pick fights with players, media pundits and all.

In the end, we are left with lots of "if only" hypothetical arguments

 

[ROFLUTION]

I think no, but mostly because I think the fans would be too much against his playing-style.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

if given free reign we’d be challenging & nasty to beat. if you think peps tactical fouls are something - a jose united would take it to another level.

we’d have sold our ‘talented’ youngsters but i also think a lot of the long standing deadwood would be gone also.

i’m still unsure what the ‘united way’ is tbh; sir alex just won; i saw ronaldo up front & rooney on the wing in games; park put on to press from the front but more than anything the ‘united way’ i recognise is good football that more than often won games.

shouldn’t have employed him if we wouldn’t back him; especially after LVG who’s ‘philosophy’ is so far removed from mou’s he was left with a team he hated

 

[Champagne Football]

Complete bollocks. His Real Madrid was one of the most devastating attacks on the decade. Take a look at how they fared before and after his reign.

Massive salaries you say? Perhaps you mean average English players like Young, Lingard, Jones etc?

I swear some of you would be better just admit you hate the man and be honest with it like "i just have an irracional dislike for the man and err, it's his fault my life is like this!"

Don't rewrite your own history. He arrived at a club with the world's best players that included the second best player in history after Messi, added a handful more of the world's best players, and very quickly the likes of Cristiano and Sergio Ramos could see he wasn't up to it and turned on him.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...-reaction-Crushed-defeated-and-a-failure.html

 

[broccoli]

Scary culty.

Football fans arent very smart in general. Dont expect you to understand. All it matters is that you enjoy your club and if you think the problem was the manager than great. Once again time will prove who's right or wrong.

Don't rewrite your own history. He arrived at a club with the world's best players that included the second best player in history after Messi, added a handful more of the world's best players, and very quickly the likes of Cristiano and Sergio Ramos could see he wasn't up to it and turned on him.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...-reaction-Crushed-defeated-and-a-failure.html

I dont base my opinion on a manager by media gossip but on contextual results on the pitch. Otherwise every single great manager in the history of the game would be bad.

But for the sake it which managers you think are not only tactically superior but also never had conflicts with players?

 

[Irrational.]

No. We'd be in an even worse position with even more deadwood to shift.

He buys expensive players for the sake of it, and then disowns them/ throws them under the bus at the first opportunity. He's never happy with what he's got and constantly moaning about the grass being greener at other teams. He rinses and repeats this strategy until he flukily lands on a winning combination.

I used to think he was some kind of pragmatic, proactive managerial genius before he came here - but his stint opened my eyes to the miserable, uncharismatic, burnt out dinosaur he is. His tactics and ideas are about 10-15 years outdated and the sooner he fecks off into irrelevance the better.

 

[charlenefan]

Should he have been backed? yes

Would we be challenging? no

Like Fergie coming up against Pep's Barca in UCL finals, we'd of found it very hard to keep pace with Pep's City even if Mourinho did get everything his own way. They've been fecking lucky but Liverpool still deserve some credit for challenging them all the way. Freak season for them

 

[Buster15]

I think the problems lie deeper than just a few transfers.

But the issues Jose saw and wanted changing will have to be changed eventually...he just wanted them to happen sooner.

And who can blame him for being impatient. He knew that the lifespan of the modern manager is very short.

 

[Sauldogba]

Its more than likely.
Our squad needed a lot of work something that he himself and most fans btw have alluded to.
He wanted a new left back,right back,new winger and a new centre back.
All of which he should have been given.
The man is a proven winger and should have been backed.

 

[shabadu84]

Possibly but then we'd be in an even worse position for the next manager in a year or two.

Also, Woodward & Co would be viewed more favorably. At least now they've got nowhere to hide (though it won't make a difference with these owners).

 

[Ish]

Well I understand it perfectly well.
He knows what is required to win competitions and has a proven track record for doing just that in Portugal, Spain, Italy and of course here three times in the PL on two occasions with Chelsea.

And he was on schedule to do the same with United, getting us to 2nd last season. I don’t agree with those who say it was a fluke. The records show that we finished second in his second season.
Success is never a straight line and there are always set backs and it has to be said that this season was a set back. But there are a range of mitigating circumstances for that including his mismanagement.
The fact that he was not supported by the club effectively made him a dead man walking and the majority of the players stopped working for him as a result.
Nevertheless, I strongly maintain that this was a missed opportunity for us to get back to challenging for the top honours and time will show whether this is correct.

I don't think what you said is wrong, or unreasonable. I think we just differ in our opinion.

So we look at his proven track record because you've brought up his past, but has his past also not taught us that he's usually at his strongest during his second season? By the third/end of his third season, there's usually some sort of controversy/in fighting and he eventually walks?

On the bolded bit, I'm also not sure how time would prove either of the opinions on the matter right or wrong? Because essentially, there's just too many variables to consider when attempting to attribute any means of future success or failure to him. i.e. we will never know the answer to the question/scenario posed by the OP because Jose wasn't backed and ended up getting the sack.

One thing is sure though, I've never thought that he was 100% wrong or accountable for the issues at the club. That remains true to this day.

Spot on

 

[el3mel]

We would be in a better position with Mou if he cleared the toxic players out. It's funny how when Mou left everyone said the players are great and we just need a new manager. Now that Ole is doing poor, we have changed our tune to say the players are rotten. Football is a funny game.

It funny. Prior to the sacking the tone was the squad was good enough, can play great football and can challenge but they arbing hold down by Mourinho. Now the squad is crap and he's responsible for building such crap squad. No consistency whatsoever.

 

[Buster15]

I think no, but mostly because I think the fans would be too much against his playing-style.

There is some sense in that. But winning comes first. Then the prettier football follows just as it did at Chelsea.
He would have recruited leaders on the pitch who were able to boss the game.