If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

Rhyme Animal

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If Mourinho was FULLY backed, I think we'd be third this season and playing really shit (boring) footy.

Probably in the F.A Cup final.

A lot of posters become very emotional when talking about Mourinho, and for whatever reason they seem to dislike him like he's fecked their wives/girlfriends - but we have to acknowledge that the moment he wasn't backed, he threw that 3rd season.

His 2 seasons before that are the barometer of what he did here - mainly dull footy, but won trophies.

Best finish 2nd.

I think that was his Utd level, nothing to be ashamed of, but needed to go as Utd should be actually competing for the PL and CL.
 

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Funny that considering the club apparently let him down and he's to be absolved of any blame, that you don't hear of any top clubs clambering for him to be their next manager.

To answer the question: No, I don't think we'd be challenging. We definitely backed him ideologically to some degree - Matic being a prime example - but I can't see the likes of Willian and Perisic suddenly turning us up several gears. He was wanting players approaching their 30s who were at the prime point in their careers, yet their stats were similar to Rashford and Martial.

Perisic, Willian and Alderweireld combined would have cost us well over £150M. Do you really think they'd be enough to get us 95+ points, as that is what would be needed to challenge for the title? I don't. And then we'd be needing to replace them again in a couple of years.
 

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No team that is either extremely good at high pressing or extremely dominant in possession will challenge for the title in the next 10 years.

A mix of these two extremes is the way to go. And OGS does not seem to be a manager to implement this.
 

beergod

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What we have is a collection of players who have been thrown together. Some have the talent but not the mental attributes. Some dont have the talent. Many of them just don't complement each other on the football pitch in terms of style. They actually combine to be LESS than the sum of their partsdo
This is the key point in my opinion. Every manager since Fergie retired has struggled with it, since Fergie's final side was a bit of a hodgepodge so he could adapt to anything. Combine that with the radical shifts in philosophies since, the mess got even worse.

Getting a squad that is capable of pulling the same direction is a prerequisite for success. If Jose was allowed to reshape the squad to something coherent would we be challenging, probably. Would it be palatable, who knows?

As long as the suits keep commercial appeal and penny pinching above cohesion, we'll be asking this question six months after every sacking.
 

redshaw

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Not challenge for 95 points but if he was backed we would've been in top 4.

The football would still be dire and we would need to keep replacing these older players or failed signings he wanted at great cost.

People get a little snarky say, yeah right if Maguire was here we would be up there, it's not that though, Jose got a massive hump and tore the place down to prove a point, had he been backed the great unrest wouldn't have happened, it's not about Perisic or Toby transforming our side.

Jose did the exact same thing when Roman said no after winning the title. He fecked them over for that. When you come to Manchester United as manager after finishing second you don't expect the world's richest club to say no make do.

Ultimately he is a bad fit for us. Would've been okay for three years after Fergie but now Pep and Klopp are here he'll look a bad third best.
 

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Funny that considering the club apparently let him down and he's to be absolved of any blame, that you don't hear of any top clubs clambering for him to be their next manager.

To answer the question: No, I don't think we'd be challenging. We definitely backed him ideologically to some degree - Matic being a prime example - but I can't see the likes of Willian and Perisic suddenly turning us up several gears. He was wanting players approaching their 30s who were at the prime point in their careers, yet their stats were similar to Rashford and Martial.

Perisic, Willian and Alderweireld combined would have cost us well over £150M. Do you really think they'd be enough to get us 95+ points, as that is what would be needed to challenge for the title? I don't. And then we'd be needing to replace them again in a couple of years.
Yeah, I agree with this.
 

Buster15

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I don't think what you said is wrong, or unreasonable. I think we just differ in our opinion.

So we look at his proven track record because you've brought up his past, but has his past also not taught us that he's usually at his strongest during his second season? By the third/end of his third season, there's usually some sort of controversy/in fighting and he eventually walks?

On the bolded bit, I'm also not sure how time would prove either of the opinions on the matter right or wrong? Because essentially, there's just too many variables to consider when attempting to attribute any means of future success or failure to him. i.e. we will never know the answer to the question/scenario posed by the OP because Jose wasn't backed and ended up getting the sack.

One thing is sure though, I've never thought that he was 100% wrong or accountable for the issues at the club. That remains true to this day.


:drool:
I agree with parts of your comment although I do believe that the third season issue is more of a coincidence.
When I said time will tell I agree that this is not measurable.
What I meant was that rather than progression which up to the end of last season was happening it may well take a few years before we will repeat that second place finish and then start to challenge for the PL title.
I certainly don't expect many to share my view of Jose and that is fine but what ever view you have his record stands.
 

Ish

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I agree with parts of your comment although I do believe that the third season issue is more of a coincidence.
When I said time will tell I agree that this is not measurable.
What I meant was that rather than progression which up to the end of last season was happening it may well take a few years before we will repeat that second place finish and then start to challenge for the PL title.
I certainly don't expect many to share my view of Jose and that is fine but what ever view you have his record stands.
Agreed with that buster. It's going to be a long, hard road to the top (if we ever get there again), which is compounded by the owners/CEO/board and their idiotic decisions. Not sure we'll get back to the top with these in charge, but i hope to be proven wrong, obviously.
 

Charlie Yu

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No, but we will have top 4 at least
 
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Cassidy

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No. He was backed fully for 2 years and didnt come close to challenging
 

DeGea

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So do we think Ole is a better manager than Mourinho hence why we employed him? I am not Jose all the way but I do accept that outside of Pep, Klopp, and possibly Poch, Jose is the best in terms of track record.

I can understand us sacking Jose and not backing him if we were bringing in the next best guy realistically available i.e. Poch. But we didn't. We essentially took a punt at Ole and hope we get lucky. Is that better than backing Jose's authority to the end of his contract and shipping the rebellious players out? (yes it will be expensive, but Man United should not really moan about price, that is a small club mentality. City wouldn't moan about price..). I do not get that bit of what the club did.

So we are now essentially pouring hundreds of millions again in the next couple of transfer windows possibly, in the hands of someone who is unproven. And we think that is better than seeing the Jose project through? If the club puts aside its egos for one second and think about it logically, it does not make sense to me.
 

WensleyMU

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The question should be rephrased. Would you rather be where we are now, having not backed Jose and had a disastrous season, or would you rather we had backed him, finished in the top 3 and maybe have 1 or 2 more older players in the squad than we do now but have had a better idea of what it is we actually do on the pitch.

Because we are currently in a worse position than at the start of the season. We have less pulling power now, even less of an idea about the direction of the club, no Champions League, no real hope of rebuilding to the level we would like.

All this could have been avoided had our board backed the man they handed a contract to a few months before...
 

B20

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The irony is that mourinho probably had a very good idea of the toxic player culture at the club and who needed to go, but Woodward wouldn't have it and neither would the fans who saw it mourinho picking fights, hating youth, hating anyone who isn't a workhorse etc.

You basically shot the messenger for being a cvnt and then a year later find yourself digging for the message as it is still relevant.
 

Raees

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Jose was the wrong man. He wasn’t the only problem but he was a major obstacle and anyone that can’t see that is deluded. If the player culture was toxic, he was a big part in producing such a toxic player culture where every man is in it for himself with no real respect for the fans or the club. It was also deluded to think getting rid of him would automatically lead to us becoming a top club again.

This club needs a massive reset across all areas of the club, day dreaming about what Jose could have done when the football was shite under him and the signings were mediocre is ludicrous.
 

Buster15

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Agreed with that buster. It's going to be a long, hard road to the top (if we ever get there again), which is compounded by the owners/CEO/board and their idiotic decisions. Not sure we'll get back to the top with these in charge, but i hope to be proven wrong, obviously.
To my mind, any owner and CEO of a football club has a duty of care to all of their stakeholders and that must include the supporters.
Every thing that their club does ought to be focused on footballing excellence. After all, that is the business.
From there revenue and profits would following, subject of course to excellence in managing the clubs affairs.

The owners seem to think that they can treat this football club like any other piece of business, forgetting that first and foremost it is a football club.
They got away with it because of SAF brilliance.
That brilliance has gone and they are going to have to adapt to that buy not just significant investment but significant transformation of the structure to align with that loss.

Very little evidence of that and maybe it is us the fans who will have to reset our expectations.
 

Greck

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The irony is that mourinho probably had a very good idea of the toxic player culture at the club and who needed to go, but Woodward wouldn't have it and neither would the fans who saw it mourinho picking fights, hating youth, hating anyone who isn't a workhorse etc.

You basically shot the messenger for being a cvnt and then a year later find yourself digging for the message as it is still relevant.
What the heck are you talking about? A large amount of the toxicity was coming from him. Gee to have a Pool fan talking down on us from a position of cluelessness. This is rock bottom
 

Ish

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To my mind, any owner and CEO of a football club has a duty of care to all of their stakeholders and that must include the supporters.
Every thing that their club does ought to be focused on footballing excellence. After all, that is the business.
From there revenue and profits would following, subject of course to excellence in managing the clubs affairs.

The owners seem to think that they can treat this football club like any other piece of business, forgetting that first and foremost it is a football club.
They got away with it because of SAF brilliance.
That brilliance has gone and they are going to have to adapt to that buy not just significant investment but significant transformation of the structure to align with that loss.

Very little evidence of that and maybe it is us the fans who will have to reset our expectations.
That bolded bit is spot on - the Glazers do see it as a business, first and foremost. And as such, Woodward has brought in enough commercial sponsors to keep them happy (for now).

LvG said as much.
 

B20

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What the heck are you talking about? A large amount of the toxicity was coming from him. Gee to have a Pool fan talking down on us from a position of cluelessness. This is rock bottom
It was no doubt. Mourinho is as much the author of his own demise as anyone.

The idea that all his struggles and conflicts were conjured from a vacuum are proving to be inaccurate though. Solskjaer is now finding himself saddled with the same squad issues as mourinho. Will likely be less of a cvnt about it, but what needed fixing then still needs fixing now. Removing mourinho from the equation wasn't the solution people thought it was.
 

Un4givableB

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No doubt, it might be ugly but the Glazers have no interest in winning, the Arsenal model under Wenger is their perfect scenario and you know what Jose thought about Wenger's later years at Arsenal.
 

Greck

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It was no doubt. Mourinho is as much the author of his own demise as anyone.

The idea that all his struggles and conflicts were conjured from a vacuum are proving to be inaccurate though. Solskjaer is now finding himself saddled with the same squad issues as mourinho. Will likely be less of a cvnt about it, but what needed fixing then still needs fixing now. Removing mourinho from the equation wasn't the solution people thought it was.
You know Solsjaer's struggles could very well be that he is a worse manager than Mourinho. The squad may be low on talent but they aren't downing tools. Also Solsjkaer like Jose is digging his own grave with his loyalty to dross. Ole's favourites (Young, Jones, Rashford, Lingard) are an even worse batch collectively than Jose's favourites (Lukaku, Matic, Young, Fellaini) were last season
 

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We might even finish in top 4 with Mourinho, but a couple of players like Pogba would leave at the end of the season...
 

djembatheking

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I think if Jose was backed last summer we would have finished 3rd , playing dull football and 15 - 20 points behind City . The owners would then need to back him the next summer heavily and then probably the next to compete at the top , so maybe 3 summers with heavy spending to get there . There is also no guarantee that Jose wouldn`t implode during this time to feck everything up .
The Glazers/Ed didn`t back him as 3 windows spending 200M-300M each time to maybe challenge City for the title was too risky .
Jose realised he wasn`t winning any big titles and started engineering his sacking from the start of the season as he wasn`t walking without his payout .
Ole given interim job , things go well , possible top 4 .
Top 4 would do for the owners so Ole offered job .
Squad is now undeniably in a mess and whoever is in charge needs a clear plan and style as well as heavy backing from above to rebuild . Is Ole the man for this ? I hope so but your guess is as good as mine as he has never done it before .
I am glad Jose has gone as it is unforgivable the way he sabotaged everything to get his pay off but that is how it works now .
The squad is a right mess though with some good players that have a bad attitude/mentality and don`t want to be here . Some shit players who love it here and give their all but are shit and some old players who understand the club and have a good attitude but are old and shit .
I do think we are in for a long spell in the wilderness because of the way things are run here now though.
 

Denis79

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It’s baffling.

He was was toxic, half arsed and his lack of respect for the club was disgusting.

Yet he still has a cult following here.
Dissipates with time. Was the same when LVG left.
 

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For all the gnashing of teeth about Woodwood and the Glazers, they’ve spent and backed Mourinho MASSIVELY only to see every single one of his signings flop and put us in an awful place.

Bailly, Mikhitaryan, Dalot, Fred and Sanchez have all been awful. Absolutely dreadful.

Matic, Lindelof (yes even him) have not lived up to their transfer fees.

That right there is 250 million pounds worth of players. Mourinho increased our wage bill by almost 80 million over two years.

That is why we are fecked. We have an aging squad, with a load of flops and incredibly high wages. That is a result of Jose Mourinho.

Giving him the job is one of the worst things out club has ever done and after spending around 500 million pounds in three years and chasing players such as Perisic and Boetang (who have both been abysmal this year) people wanted him to have more. He left us in danger of a mid table finish FFS. NONE of our players developed under him and a lot of them actively were hounded out of the club.

For years plenty of you cried about Mourinho. “He’s a born winner”. Well he was here. And predictably he was shit. It could take years to overcome his toxic shithousery.
 

Mr Anderson

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He needed backing, but he also signed a good few duds or ones with awful attitudes. Jose was a small part of the problem the club have - but a problem nevertheless.

But managers do buy turds - shit happens. Pep bought enough shit in his first season then binned them 12 months later. Modern game is act now or get left behind.
 

Stactix

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The question should be rephrased. Would you rather be where we are now, having not backed Jose and had a disastrous season, or would you rather we had backed him, finished in the top 3 and maybe have 1 or 2 more older players in the squad than we do now but have had a better idea of what it is we actually do on the pitch.

Because we are currently in a worse position than at the start of the season. We have less pulling power now, even less of an idea about the direction of the club, no Champions League, no real hope of rebuilding to the level we would like.

All this could have been avoided had our board backed the man they handed a contract to a few months before...
Where is the evidence to back up this claim?
He gained 2 players in the summer plus Sanchez having his first full season.

Poch had no signings, who smacked Utd at Old trafford?
One had a tantrum, the other didn't.
 

Art Vandelay

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No. I think we'd be closer to getting rid of some of the problems in the squad, but I'm not sure his replacements would have been right either. He needed to go, but he also needed to be backed in his assessment of some of the players. It's not a black and white issue.
 

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Dissipates with time. Was the same when LVG left.
Van Gaal should have been sacked. But he took us from 7th into the CL places, had better success with signings (Herrera, Shaw, Blind, Romero, Martial are better than most of Mourinho’s outlay - while we recouped the Schniderlin and Di Maria money). Lowered our wage bill and won the FA Cup. He left us in a good place to build upon.
 

RedRonaldo

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No.

We already back Mourinho with 400m in spending, how much more do you want us to back him? 1 billion?
 

Kapardin

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No doubt, it might be ugly but the Glazers have no interest in winning, the Arsenal model under Wenger is their perfect scenario and you know what Jose thought about Wenger's later years at Arsenal.
Luckily, what they are doing is not even good enough to replicate the "Arsenal Model" of CL qualification, so they have no choice but to spend and improve the squad.
 

KristianMackle

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Mourinho's problem is he picked a fight with Pogba and Martial. Two players important commercially, and at the time, players who enjoyed full support from the fans. He was never going to win that fight but I'm afraid he was right.

Martial seems to think he's already made it, he's already a star and should be given the star treatment all the time. Pogba knows he's a star and should be given carte blanche to do whatever he pleases on or off the pitch. These are not the players who will fight tooth and nail for you, they show up on the pitch when they want.

Mourinho did not care about age or marketability, he just wanted players who were all about football. Players he knew would listen and could take criticism. The board obviously didn't support that because we are first a business enterprise, followed by a football club. We are paying for that.
 

Greck

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The title clearly says backing to his ideology and authority (in feuds with players etc.,).
He has never been backed in his feuds at any club. Let's ask ourselves why that is. It's not like any of these clubs want to have to sack one of the most successful managers of all time. It's his perpetual never ending combative nature that eventually becomes untenable for those around him. You eventually ask yourself "what's wrong with this guy? are we going to have to do this everytime?".
 

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If he was completely backed, he would be a success. The perfect like for like example would be Simeone I guess. We all know that with the right players, Jose can get results.
 

RedRonaldo

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The title clearly says backing to his ideology and authority (in feuds with players etc.,).
The thing is, the players and fans don't have faith in him or his ideology, nothing the club can do will change that, so how can club back him with more? The club already back him, probably more than any other managers in the world. 400m in 2.5 years, is a lot of money.