Fred and McTominay played against Liverpool back in May when they beat us 4-2 at OT.
If Ole doesn’t revert to a conventional 4-3-3,then he”ll be gone by December….
- Thread starter Nikelesh Reddy
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I would drop Ronaldo long before I would either consider moving Bruno or Pogba out of the team.
Truth be told, we looked far more cohesive when Ronaldo wasn't here.
Truth be told, we looked far more cohesive when Ronaldo wasn't here.
Imagine anyone thinking Matic needs to play in our best eleven. Genuinely comical viewpoint, he offers zero protection to the defence and our whole team plays like they're running in treacle when he's on the pitch.
I think people are forgetting how bad we were before Bruno signed. The suggestion to revert back to the midfield we had before he arrived is not the answerDrop Bruno is the solution
Changing formation won't solve the problems, by playing 4-3-3 would we suddenly be able to build comfortably from the back? Or preassure the opposition? Or attack with anything else but long balls?
The problems run deeper, we don't have a defined playing style. No formation change will solve that.
The problems run deeper, we don't have a defined playing style. No formation change will solve that.
In addition to playing the 4-3-3 with three of Fred, Scot, Matic, Pogba, VDB, we should also stop pressing in the opposition's half - we don't have the personnel for it.
In all honesty if I was him I’d drop both Pogba and Bruno. I’d rather have stability and an ability to retain possession and work hard for one another. So if he decides to start using Fred, VDB, Mata, Matic, McT combination in a 3 just to solidify midfield I wouldn’t hold it against him.
Youve always then got the option to drop in a Pogba or Bruno once you actually get a functioning solid midfield. At least that lot understand the concept of passing and movement and filling in holes to cover one another. Hopefully eventually Pogba and Bruno realise what is needed to become a top team a long with Ole and his coaching team.
Youve always then got the option to drop in a Pogba or Bruno once you actually get a functioning solid midfield. At least that lot understand the concept of passing and movement and filling in holes to cover one another. Hopefully eventually Pogba and Bruno realise what is needed to become a top team a long with Ole and his coaching team.
I don't think a shift in tactics will save him!!!
Ole lacks the tactical nous to shift and make changes, he is too dependant on the 4231 due to Bruno's exploits.
So a change of tactics is meaningless.
Ole lacks the tactical nous to shift and make changes, he is too dependant on the 4231 due to Bruno's exploits.
So a change of tactics is meaningless.
Reading the thread title I heard the last three words in the tune of that Wyclef Jean song. Great song actually.
Can't disagree with what you said. I mean, it's the main reason why we always look like we don't have a plan or clue of what to do with the ball once we have it and why even smaller teams look way too often more structured and disciplined than we do.
He'll be gone by December, he'll be gone by December,
January, February, March, April, May
We want him gone now but Ed wants him to stay.......
The only thing that will save Ole is the board's incompetence. By save, I mean delay the inevitable by longer than what is appropriate. I'd like to see us try out a Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho forward line. Ideally we will then sign a couple of centre mids that will offer similar, but better qualities than McFred. I'm thinking two of Tchouameni, Palhinha or Rice. As much as I rate Pogba, he no longer fits in here and his contract status is such that he shouldn't be indulged. However, the personnel is largely irrelevant without adequate tactics and coaching.
This. The issues are bigger than that
I think if u play your best eleven and ask them "go win this" i think they can do it. They are that good. Something about the way they coached or the specific instructions that they given is breaking the team. We not pressing higher up, and when we press they just simply switch sides and nobody presses on that side. The way we collectively keep retreating when opposition pushes towards our midfield up until they reach dangerous areas for example, tells me its coaching instruction. For whatever reason, its obvious. Simple misspasses, AWB aversion to make forward passes, bruno being too attacking, pogbas unnecessary spins. We fail at the basics. They are not being drilled enough or no longer care. Regardless it only leaves us with one option.
We are now also rans. No matter how you decorate the cake, the poor filling is showing. I wish I could say different, but until Ole goes & we replace with a decent manager, this is how it will be. Since Fergie left, other clubs have got bigger & better. Now Newcastle are in the mix for the best players, & manager. Our slippery slide continues. Poor management from the top down.
It’s basically do or die for Ole against Liverpool and nothing less than a win saves him so he needs to go all out instead of being so cautious, go all out and play a proper 4-3-3 with Greenwood and Rashford either side of Ronaldo then play one of Fernandes or Pogba alongside McTominay and Fred as it’s inevitable they’ll play.
Honestly mate,Ronaldo and Bruno can’t play together in the big games.Yeah we can get away with it against the lesser teams,but any half decent team will put us to the sword with those 2 in the team.Citys attacking players work their socks off when they lose possession,our attacking players lack the same work ethic.We will continue to struggle if we keep playing those 2 in the big games..,
Agree on the 433 but play Fred mct bruno as the 3. Can swap in Pogba/Matic/Vdb as and when required. We can turn this around. Wonder if this is why Fred mentioned recently he doesn’t want to play as a DM?
I would tend to agree. This feels to me like Frank Lampard at Chelsea last year. Did reasonably when his choices were limited and expectations were lower, but as soon as their are choices to manage and decisions to be made, looks a bit clueless!
I'd actually like to see Bruno and Donny playing as our midfield 2 and Pogba playing in front of them. Bruno and Donny are both highly mobile players and have shown a bit of bite here and there. Under strick instructions for at least one to sit at all times. It would give us a midfield with the ability to retain the ball and move it quickly to our attack. We can't get any more porous in the middle than we are, at least this way we would be functional in possession. That leaves Pogba to roam in what's now brunos position and cause havoc with his physicality and shooting.
Ole needs to do something drastic and may as well go down swinging as fade away like he's doing now.
Also I'd drop Ronaldo to the bench as I think we're much better with Mason or Cavani up top. Then have Ronaldo to come on when the defence is tired late on. It saves Ronaldos legs and gives that real fear factor when it's needed.
That could all be a disaster, but then there's a reason I'm writing on the CAF and not coaching football....
Ole needs to do something drastic and may as well go down swinging as fade away like he's doing now.
Also I'd drop Ronaldo to the bench as I think we're much better with Mason or Cavani up top. Then have Ronaldo to come on when the defence is tired late on. It saves Ronaldos legs and gives that real fear factor when it's needed.
That could all be a disaster, but then there's a reason I'm writing on the CAF and not coaching football....
How about we play roughly the same team and formation beat Manchester City 3 times in a season? you know, the clueless PE teacher tactic
We didn't win our other games when Pogba was not playing or on the wing either.
It's not a personnel issue. It's a managerial one.
The chorus to drop Bruno is growing louder and louder.I have read loads of articles in these last few days arguing the same…I think he may be dropped either tonight or against Liverpool..,
4-3-3 is not magical formula. 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 doesn't matter, playing principles is what defines the playing style.
Ole is trying out the new 10-0-0 formation for Liverpool. That should keep the score down a bit.
433. 4231. 451. 352. It's all basically the same thing. What makes them difference is not the dot on the field but their instruction.
Ajax 433 and moyes 433 are both 433 but the result would be extremely opposite. Formation is just a number, it's the tweak that made it works.
Right now we dont have the tweak. We're just puting 6 bodies at the back. And 6 up front doing whatever they wanna do. Have fun and hope that one of them pull something. To be fair with our talent we normally does.
Ajax 433 and moyes 433 are both 433 but the result would be extremely opposite. Formation is just a number, it's the tweak that made it works.
Right now we dont have the tweak. We're just puting 6 bodies at the back. And 6 up front doing whatever they wanna do. Have fun and hope that one of them pull something. To be fair with our talent we normally does.
Would 4-4-2 work with Cavani and Ronaldo up front?
--------------Ronaldo--Cavani
Sancho - Fred - Bruno - Greenwood
Shaw - Maguire - Varane - Awb
--------------Ronaldo--Cavani
Sancho - Fred - Bruno - Greenwood
Shaw - Maguire - Varane - Awb
Yes, but the formation also matters - it needs to fit the playing principles, among other things.
If we accept that the issue is the lack of balance and control in a 4231 with the four attackers doing little pressing or defensive work, then there are two possible solutions: Fewer players with a primarily attacking role, or more defensive and pressing work from the attackers.
The latter solution is compatible with any formation. The former dictates a shift in formation.
433 and a 3 at the back type formation, such as Chelsea's 3421, seems like the most obvious options.
With a 433, that would mean either forcing Bruno into a lower and more defined role in the midfield, with more extensive defensive duties and benching Pogba, or arranging the 3 man attack line so that Bruno can play in it, and use Pogba together with Fred and McTominay in a flatter midfield 3. Either way, there would be an awful lot of excellent players seeing a lot of bench time.
The more I think about a 3-at-the-back formation, the less I like it. Particularly in terms of squad suitability. If you want a 3421 formation to work in the sense of allowing you to control and dominate the game and produce steady offensive pressure, as opposed to just drop back securely and counterattack (which is a futile approach, as it is completely ineffective against most teams we play, who sit back and have to be broken down), then I think Tuchel's Chelsea give you the template for that: Tight cohesive shape and intensive counterpress over the whole pitch. If we can do intensive counterpress, then there's no need to drop 4231 in the first place.
Also, I think for such a formation to work, the three parts of the team that absolutely needs real, serious quality is the wing backs, the central midfield pairing and the striker. The striker because I think you'll tend to generate fewer quality chances with that formation, and so you are more dependent on a first rate finisher on top. We have that in Ronaldo, so that's fine. But then it gets more difficult. You're so dependent on the wing backs for any kind of offensive pressure, and at the same time they'll have a lot to handle defensively. The CMs, like the wing backs, have to be able to contribute a lot both with and without the ball. It's those four players who largely determine if you're getting pushed around or if you impose yourself with that formation.
And, those positions are where we would be weakest. We don't have a fully formed wing back other than Alex Telles, and on the right side it's an open question if we even have someone who would be fully functional, never mind dominant. And our CM would still be our CM. It might be an easier framework to perform within than our current formation, but we would hardly have a top class central midfield duo anyway.
For the remaining five spots, I think we'd be fine. A 3-man back line generally requires less from each CB than a CB pairing does, and makes it considerably easier to perform well. And the two attackers behind the striker, that can be done effectively in a lot of different ways and there's also no lack of players who could do that well.
All in all, I think that if we go that way with this squad, we'll end up with a more defensively secure team, but also one that is not able to control or dominate games, and which will be hugely challenged against weaker, low-defending opponents.
So I guess that brings us back to 433, or the forwards doing more work and doing it well.
Coach's playing style and his principles matter. 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 we won't control games because of the nature of set up. 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 Bayern will control game even with Muller as second striker.
Likewise 4-3-3 or 3-4-3/3-5-2 Tuchel's team have same playing principles.
Which again brings back to my initial point, formations matter very less. It's all about coach's playing style and principles.
Yes, of course playing style and principles matter. I'm not arguing that a certain formation in itself yields a particular result, irrespective of the factors you mention and others as well, or that different formations cannot accommodate different playing styles of principles. But different formations does demand different things at different positions, and aren't just dependent on which players are implementing it but also has consequences for which players in the squad you can utilise, and the demands that are placed on them. Otherwise, managers would hardly bother using different formations. Presumably there is a reason Tuchel chooses 3421 as the way to implement his principles and playing style with the squad he has at his disposal, and it is hardly the case that any squad or any given set of principles or playing style is equally suited to any formation.
Whether in terms of principles and playing style, or in terms of formation, or both, what do you figure our problem is and what are the options to fix them?
I’d agree with this… it has to be done in the right situations and as a team. Or, don’t bother, drop a bit and give them eleven players to get through. We need to stop trying to do things other teams do (the pressing, playing out of defence) until we have the personnel/coaching to make it work. Until then, there’s nothing wrong with dropping back and theres nothing wrong with hoofing it some times. Play to your strengths not some Pep/Klopp/Tuchel ideal.
But a midfield three akin to Atalanta second half with Bruno dropping deeper.. still ahead of McFred/Frogba but 5-10 yards ahead and not 30/off the shoulder of Ronaldo.
As far as I can make out, we pretty much have stopped pressing in the opposition's half. And for a good while now, we've been playing a mid-block, with only light pressing up front. Nothing wrong with that, per se.
However, when we're just dropping semi deep, and there's mostly basically no pressure on the ball-carrier even far into our own half, and not that much tracking back from four attackers, the result usually doesn't look very good. We get played through far too easily, and that happened against Atalanta too.
Also, I don't agree we lack the personnel to press high. We did that to great effect during Ole's caretaker period, and we did it occasionally last season too. Rashford, Lingard, Cavani, Bruno, Martial (when he sets his mind to it) are all pretty good at it, Greenwood is capable of doing it too, Sancho I don't know well enough to tell. Not saying we should, necessarily, but I do think we can.
We simply cannot change formation to 4-3-3 right now because we do not have a dedicated defensive midfielder and Matic is not the one at 33 years old. He will easily get turned by majority of the teams in the league and of course Europe. We need to buy one and until such time we can revert to a 4-3-3 attack formation. Fred/Mctominay or VDB cannot be a CDM. Ole will have to make do with 4-2-3-1. He wants to play counter attack and believes that the United way. What's surprising me more is that Ole doesn't really have a style of his own like that of Pep (possession) or Klopp (gegenpress). Also, football has changed a lot since the Sir Alex era of counter attacking football. Even smaller teams want to play more with the ball these days and will yield only to teams that can dominate possession and therefore we need to keep possession and move the ball around quickly to win matches. Inviting pressure and then beating them with pace doesn't work anymore, if it could've been done, Jose would've paraded a couple more trophies in the PL. I have my doubts with Ole because I don't think he has a way of playing football, he thinks there is a United way and that we should go and do that. Work hard, retrieve the ball and go forward is all he says. If you watch his interviews carefully, he will always talk about forwards moving through lines or running past opponent defenders but never about how technical or skilled they are at tricking the opponents by playing fast and quick passes around the defenders. That's exactly what is required for the modern footballers.
Won't make a difference. It isn't a football game.
If you are dependent on a pure CDM, then we're not really talking about a 3-man central midfield, but rather about one where you have two very offensive midfielders and one sitter, like City. We did play 433 with an intensive counterpress during Ole's caretaker period.
I agree that we have stopped pressing as a team. However, some players still press on random occasions on their own - e.g., Bruno. It destroys our midfield structure. Bruno has to play deeper and stop initiating a one man press if we are to compete this season or we should try playing a midfield three of Pogba - Matic - Fred.