If our defence is so bad why is it so good?

[TheReligion]

If you listened to much of the Caf, and general football fans, you hear that following about United;

De Gea - Dreadful goalkeeper. Rubbish for 2 years. Must sell.

Shaw - Fat, useless, slow, lazy

Lindelof - Physically weak, mentally weak, not good enough.

Maguire - Waste of money, slow, turns like a tug boat, overrated.

Wan Bissaka - Awful going forward, always out of position, overpriced.

Now taking all of the above onboard I have to wonder how we have the 4th best defensive record in the PL when it comes to goals conceded and the best record we've had in that area for several seasons?

Genuine question.

 

[devilish]

If you listened to much of the Caf, and general football fans, you hear that following about United;

De Gea - Dreadful goalkeeper. Rubbish for 2 years. Must sell.

Shaw - Fat, useless, slow, lazy

Lindelof - Physically weak, mentally weak, not good enough.

Maguire - Waste of money, slow, turns like a tug boat, overrated.

Wan Bissaka - Awful going forward, always out of position, overpriced.

Now taking all of the above onboard I have to wonder how we have the 4th best defensive record in the PL when it comes to goals conceded and the best record we've had in that area for several seasons?

Genuine question.

We are probably the only top club in the world who tend to play with 2 defensive full backs + to box 2 box players (Fred and McT). That 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented. One might add James as well whose all workrate and pace.

 

[TheReligion]

We are probably the only top club in the world who tend to play with 2 defensive full backs + to box 2 box players (Fred and McT). That 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented. One might add James as well whose all workrate and pace.

Considering we don't have/play with a top class DMC though I don't think you can call our set up defensive as such.

 

[SoCross]

Since when have box to box midfielders be classed as defensive players?

 

[devilish]

Since when have box to box midfielders be classed as defensive players?

Maybe since ours provide little apart from work rate and tackling?

 

[Smores]

We are probably the only top club in the world who tend to play with 2 defensive full backs + to box 2 box players (Fred and McT). That 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented. One might add James as well whose all workrate and pace.

People aren't going to like this, true though

 

[devilish]

Considering we don't have/play with a top class DMC though I don't think you can call our set up defensive as such.

I can't recall of many top sides who are as defensive minded as ours. Pogba has never been called lazy at Juve but in our team he looks as so. 7 defensive minded players our of 11 is very defensive especially considering we tend to play either James or Jlingz on the right flanks as well.

 

[ivaldo]

People aren't going to like this, true though

It's not though, is it. In fact, we are one of the few teams that doesn't play a proper DM.

 

[DWelbz19]

I can't recall of many top sides who are as defensive minded as ours. Pogba has never been called lazy at Juve but in our team he looks as so. 7 defensive minded players our of 11 is very defensive especially considering we tend to play either James or Jlingz on the right flanks as well.

Lingard has started one game on the right wing this season. Your 'box-to-box' point is a load of tosh, too. Stop exaggerating for the sake of things.

I agree that our fullbacks are two who are far more defensively oriented than the other 'top teams', and I agree in general that our defence isn't *all that* and this 'joint 4th best in the league' is a big reach, but you're going overboard with your comments.

 

[Offside]

People will bash every single aspect of our team and every single player until we are winning the league title and then they will proceed to bash every single aspect of our team and every single player until we win it again after that.

 

[devilish]

It's not though, is it. In fact, we are one of the few teams that doesn't play a proper DM.

Instead of having 1 DM and 2 creative midfielders we tend to play Fred and McT instead. The latter two are as technically gifted and as creative as Philip Neville

 

[devilish]

Lingard has started one game on the right wing this season. Your 'box-to-box' point is a load of tosh, too. Stop exaggerating for the sake of things.

I agree that our fullbacks are two who are far more defensively oriented than the other 'top teams', and I agree in general that our defence isn't *all that* and this 'joint 4th best in the league' is a big reach, but you're going overboard with your comments.

Do you think that Fred and McT provide creativity? Let me rephrase it better. Which midfield is more creative in your books

Fred-McT-Bruno
Matic-Pogba-Bruno

 

[ivaldo]

Instead of having 1 DM and 2 creative midfielders we tend to play Fred and McT instead. The latter two are as technically gifted and as creative as Philip Neville

So what teams are playing with 1 DM and two creative/goalscoring midfielders?

 

[Smores]

It's not though, is it. In fact, we are one of the few teams that doesn't play a proper DM.

I wasn't aware that playing a DM or not is the criteria for whether a team is defensive, how foolish of me.

 

[TheReligion]

Instead of having 1 DM and 2 creative midfielders we tend to play Fred and McT instead. The latter two are as technically gifted and as creative as Philip Neville

For a start Mctominay has already scored more goals than Phil Neville did in his United career. He's most certainly more technically gifted.

 

[ivaldo]

I wasn't aware that playing a DM or not is the criteria for whether a team is defensive, how foolish of me.

Nah, pretending players are defensive when they're not is much more relevant to the discussion.

 

[DWelbz19]

Do you think that Fred and McT provide creativity? Let me rephrase it better. Which midfield is more creative in your books

Fred-McT-Bruno
Matic-Pogba-Bruno

1. That wasn't the point you were making; and
2. Not being able to provide creativity = / = being defensive.

McTominay and Fred being average at creating things doesn't make them bigger defensive players than they are. You're reaching conclusions that just aren't there.

 

[devilish]

For a start Mctominay has already scored more goals than Phil Neville did in his United career. He's most certainly more technically gifted.

Well Phil played most of his career as full back.

 

[0le]

It isn't the best record we've had for several seasons. We've already conceded 31 league goals this season.

In Moyes season (2013/2014) we conceded 43 league goals.
In LvG's first season (2014/2015) we conceded 37 league goals.
In LvG's second season (2015/2016) we conceded 35 league goals.
In Jose's first season (2016/2017) we conceded 29 league goals.
In Jose's second season (2017/2018) we conceded 28 league goals.
In Jose/Ole season (2018/2019), we conceded 54 league goals.

Our best defensive record was during Mourinho's first two years. Some of this was down to excellent form by De Gea but also defensive tactics deployed by Mourinho. Under Ole we look on course to have a similar record to LvG's defensive record, but the plus side is that we play more attacking football and this is despite DDG's dip in form.

We can improve our defence by finding a better partner for Maguire, reducing DDG's mistakes (either replacement or improvement in form) and having a DM in the mould of Matic who can play every game.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

I'd say there's a difference between a defensive fullback and a fullback who isn't very good at attacking, and ours fall under the latter generally, though I think AWB had improved a lot prior to the season being suspended.

Our fullbacks aren't as proficient at attacking playmaking as we'd like, but both are still in the attacking positions you'd expect fullbacks to be in. There's just no real end product there. They're not like Darmian who would get a nosebleed if he even crossed the halfway line.

 

[Sandikan]

We are probably the only top club in the world who tend to play with 2 defensive full backs + to box 2 box players (Fred and McT). That 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented. One might add James as well whose all workrate and pace.

If you think we are a defensive negative outfit now what were we under jose and vg!

 

[devilish]

1. That wasn't the point you were making; and
2. Not being able to provide creativity = / = being defensive.

McTominay and Fred being average at creating things doesn't make them bigger defensive players. You're reaching conclusions that just aren't there.

But that should be the point. Formations differ from one team to another. However I can't think of many sides who play with 7 players who are defensive minded. FFS there's zero creativity coming out of that defence and yet we only have the 4 best defence in the EPL.

 

[TheReligion]

Well Phil played most of his career as full back.

Why you comparing him to Mctominay then?

 

[meamth]

People will bash every single aspect of our team and every single player until we are winning the league title and then they will proceed to bash every single aspect of our team and every single player until we win it again after that.

If memory serves me right, even when we're winning under Sir Alex, caf is full of bashers. Don't matter if we're in success period or not, this place is something else.

 

[El Jefe]

We're joint 4th in goals conceded, I wouldn't class that as so good.

 

[Scarecrow]

The answer is in the very first sentence in this thread. Not looking at the Caf on match days literally changed my outlook on the game and our players, in general. The negativity put me off most football discussions, really.

 

[devilish]

If you think we are a defensive negative outfit now what were we under jose and vg!

We inherited most of our team from Jose. However it didn't help with Ole buying a fullback who can't cross a ball even if his own life depended on it.

 

[devilish]

Why you comparing him to Mctominay then?

Cause they have similar characteristics. Both are extremely hardworking, they do the job, they have great attitude but are meah going forward.

 

[Skills]

We are probably the only top club in the world who tend to play with 2 defensive full backs + to box 2 box players (Fred and McT). That 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented. One might add James as well whose all workrate and pace.

This is correct.

At least 6/10 outfield players are there primarily for their defensive contributions.

 

[OleBoiii]

Our defense is good(ish), but there's obviously a lot of room for improvement.

It's just been a decade since we had VDS, Rio, Vidic and Evra all in their prime, so most of us probably still long for a feeling of safety that's frankly quite rare in football.

 

[ivaldo]

But that should be the point. Formations differ from one team to another. However I can't think of many sides who play with 7 players who are defensive minded. FFS there's zero creativity coming out of that defence and yet we only have the 4 best defence in the EPL.

Why are you persisting with this? If we follow this logic, then Liverpool yesterday played with 3 defensive midfielders, a ball winning midfielder at fullback and a defensive CF. Which of course would be a silly way of looking at it. Still waiting for all these teams that play with 2 creative midfielders and a DM by the way.

 

[TheReligion]

Cause they have similar characteristics. Both are extremely hardworking, they do the job, they have great attitude but are meah going forward.

But I've just explained that Mctominay has already scored more than Neville did at United in 50 games to his 250 odd.

I'm not sure I'm A) getting the comparison or B) understanding how they have similar offensive outputs.

 

[devilish]

So what teams are playing with 1 DM and two creative/goalscoring midfielders?

That's not the point. One has to analyse the ratio between attacking minded players and defensive minded players. We play with 7 players who are better in the defensive aspect of the game then in the attacking aspect of the game. On top of that we also play James as RW whose all pace and workrate and very little else. That's very defensive.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

We are 5th and it is around 5th best. Probably better than Chelseas though, but they have scored more.
I personally aim for higher than that. Would start with improving the attack though.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Stats aside where would you rank our defense in the league. I'd say 4th behind Leceister

 

[romufc]

We are probably the only top club in the world who tend to play with 2 defensive full backs + to box 2 box players (Fred and McT). That 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented. One might add James as well whose all workrate and pace.

First of all, we are not a top club at the moment. We aspire to be one yes.

Shaw actually attacks if you watch the game. But I guess it suits your agenda.

In that case Liverpool play with 6 defensive minded players too?
Allison, VVD, Matip, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum

Chelsea too?
Aziplicueta, Rudiger, Zouma, Kepa, Kante, Kovacic

So because a player has workrate, he is defensive? Most assists for us this season?

 

[elmo]

Because apart from Rashford, Martial, Bruno and Pogba, almost everyone else is picked based on who tracks back the most and can defend.

Small teams know we can't break them down if they don't attack and just aim to hit us on the counter. This isn't a good defensive team if you're basing it on our usual standards under Sir Alex, it might be counted as one post Sir Alex, but that just tells you how far we've fallen.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Stats aside where would you rank our defense in the league. I'd say 4th behind Leceister

 

[DWelbz19]

That's not the point. One has to analyse the ratio between attacking minded players and defensive minded players. We play with 7 players who are better in the defensive aspect of the game then in the attacking aspect of the game. On top of that we also play James as RW whose all pace and workrate and very little else. That's very defensive.

Again, you're conflating player quality for actual defensive numbers.

We don't play football like Jose Mourinho. We actively try to control games. We just lack the actual quality to do it.

 

[Rozay]

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Fred and McTominay are in the team for their defensive contributions, to be fair. Beyond that, our #10 has often been selected for similar reasons (pressing ability), as it isn’t hard to argue that Mata is a far greater offensive threat than Lingard and Pereira. James certainly doesn’t play more games than Greenwood due to offensive output either, although it is reasonable to argue he’s playing more because he’s older.

That said, I don’t think we are tactically defensive, but I do feel that a large portion of our team this season are United players for their defensive attributes more than their offensive ones. I’d say the back 5, midfield 3 and right winger are all better going backwards than going forward. But again, I don’t think that’s tactical. Bruno and Pogba were not around for most of the season (although you could question why Pereira and Jess play ahead of Mata), and it appears we are looking at Sancho to replace James, so I don’t think Ole is negative at all. We actually try to play on the front foot, but the individuals are not offensively good enough.