If Pep took over us instead of City would we have won the PL ?

[Steve Bruce]

Wouldn't any decent manager have won the league at City with the resources Pep's been given to play with.

The level City have played at since Pep came in is well beyond anything city did before then.

 

[el3mel]

We'd had had 3 years of running ourselves into the ground and overachieving and then capitulating being laughed at in 6th place.

I would take this if it means winning CL and PL in return.

 

[gerdm07]

I think it depends on which team he inherits.

2013 after Sir Alex, the team needed a midfield partner for Carrick and a right winger. That would have been enough to win the league that season. I think had any proven winner taken over from Fergie (Ancelotti, Mourinho etc.) we would have won with that team too. Moyes was simply out of his depth.

After that, it gets harder though. Look at Pep's first year at City, and that was with a team including Kompany, Silva, De Bruyne, Sterling and Aguero. He also added Gundogan, Bravo and Stones that summer and still finished third. He would have probably managed to turn it around if given enough time, but there's no way you could compare the quality of our squad to City's at the time.

If roles were reversed this season and Pep was our manager with Ole at City, we could probably win. Having said that, again compare the wing options at City - Sterling, Mahrez, Silva, Foden and Torres - to ours - Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, James and Mata - and again they're clearly ahead. City have simply got a better squad all round, not just a better manager.

So I'd say he'd only have won it had he taken over after Sir Alex and possibly Moyes. Other than that, we would have been up there but it's not as straightforward as a 100% certainty.

The 2013 team had some serious flaws and only won the title because of RVP and a City team that vastly under performed. In addition, our team was aging and was not in a good position to compete the next season no matter who the manager. We needed a manager with real balls to clear out some players and rejuvenate the squad. Pep would have started that but would not have won the league IMO for at least 2 or more seasons.

I'm glad you said "we could probably win." City are a better team than we are right now and a manager swap would not make a difference at the end of this campaign. City would win the title. The only caveat is if Liverpool didn't have so many key injuries then it would be a tight race.

 

[el3mel]

Imagine what he could have done with the likes of Lingard, Darmian, Young and co. Probably sacked in 8 months time.

He would have cleared all these after one year max just like what he did with City's deadwood. He doesn't endure mediocrity.

Our previous managers took long to clear the deadwood. It was their problem.

 

[SER19]

If he took over at the same time, and spent 850m in that time, yeah I'd expect 2-3 titles including this seasons league. Would also depend on who was at City and what they were spending but yes, he's a good manager and with an unlimited budget, would win titles here

 

[Loon]

He’s gone from the Pep Guardiola is my idol to ‘I wish he was my boyfriend’“ again. Get over it, girl.

 

[Offsideagain]

Guardiola would have needed to spend in excess of a billion (which he probably did at Citeh but they published lower fees for FFP) to get United together at that time. He also bought a few duds and inherited many top players. That is the reason he went to City plus the £19m pa salary and not us.

 

[Manoucha09]

The 2013 team had some serious flaws and only won the title because of RVP and a City team that vastly under performed. In addition, our team was aging and was not in a good position to compete the next season no matter who the manager. We needed a manager with real balls to clear out some players and rejuvenate the squad. Pep would have started that but would not have won the league IMO for at least 2 or more seasons.

I'm glad you said "we could probably win." City are a better team than we are right now and a manager swap would not make a difference at the end of this campaign. City would win the title. The only caveat is if Liverpool didn't have so many key injuries then it would be a tight race.

I agree the 2013 team had many flaws, but imo their biggest flaw was the manager and his coaching staff - according to many accounts we've heard since, they were simply not adequate replacements for Sir Alex and his team. I think one change Pep might have made would be to keep some of the coaching staff on and that would have helped. Obviously with hindsight those players were not up to the task but I really think Pep would have them playing well enough to win. They already had a winning mentality and needed someone with that same mentality coming in. This was the squad:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/startseite/verein/985/saison_id/2013

Granted, a lot of those players were passed it either age-wise (Ferdinand and Giggs) or playing-wise (Rooney and Vidic), but the core were still young enough. This team would have beaten a City team that won the league with 86 points:

De Gea

Rafael...Evans...Vidic...Evra

Carrick...New CM (Thiago)

New winger...Kagawa...Nani

Van Persie

Subs: Ferdinand, Valencia, Fletcher, Young, Chicharito, Welbeck, Januzaj, Rooney
​

For comparison, City's signings that summer were Fernandinho, Negredo, Jesus Navas, Demichelis and Jovetic. This was their squad:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-city/startseite/verein/281/saison_id/2013

Like I said, any competent manager and coaching team and we would have won that league. Under Moyes, we lost at home in the league to Liverpool, Spurs, Man City, Newcastle, Sunderland, West Brom and Everton.

I completely agree with your second point though. We're not too far off, but we're still a level below City. Hopefully we get it right this summer.

​

 

[MrMarcello]

Pretty sure Pep would have gone 4-3-3 which means he probably signs Fabregas (or Herrera a year sooner) and Thiago then plugs and plays the RF/RW slot for a year or so. That also means no panic purchase known as Fellaini. There's also no Mata that January.

 

[Rolaholic]

Not a Pep fanboy in the least but I'd have to say absolutely to be honest...

We'd be competing on every front once he'd have assembled his squad and we more than have the resources necessary to fund his vision

 

[Zen86]

Depends when he joined. If he took over instead of Moyes then almost certainly, any time after and, I wouldn’t underestimate how much of a mess this club has been in the years after.

 

[Stacks]

Yes. He would have made us a force to be reckoned with after 2 years or so.

agreed. He would have maybe struggled for the first 2 years

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Would he come here and transform the team into title winners? The thing I can say is that Pep has never come into a team that was not already expecting to win the title

Are you saying United weren't expecting to win the title in 16/17?

Because that was clearly the goal under Mourinho, until it became clear his football was nearly as tedious as Van Gaal's.

Hard to take this post seriously on the whole when it describes racking up 198 points over two seasons as "meeting domestic achievements".

 

[Greck]

Not a Pep fanboy in the least but I'd have to say absolutely to be honest...

We'd be competing on every front once he'd have assembled his squad and we more than have the resources necessary to fund his vision

Kinda annoying but yes, cant help but notice how well Pep can assemble a team and refresh it so they are always relevant. SAF was the same. Money is a huge factor of course but we're a testament to money not being all of it. Their cycle should have been over yet here they are

 

[Thunderhead]

Kinda annoying but yes, cant help but notice how well Pep can assemble a team and refresh it so they are always relevant. SAF was the same. Money is a huge factor of course but we're a testament to money not being all of it. Their cycle should have been over yet here they are

the cycle of the last team ended winning the league in 2018/19 and the new cycle started last season, that's why I find it amusing when people say Guardiola can't build a team, probably not from scratch but he can with money, and this is probably now solely his squad, with the exception of Sterling, Aguero, Ferna the players we've got rid of the last 2 seasons played parts in Pelligrini and Mancini winning teams, none of this squad going forward (assuming Aguero and Fernandinho leave at the end of this season) will have.

that 2018/19 league winning squad now doesn't have

Kompany, Danilo, Mangala, Delph, Otamendi, Silva, Sane all replaced with Ake, Torres, Dias, Rodri and Cancelo

realistically I can see Fernandinho, Aguero and possibly Walker going at the end of this season which would mean the only players we would have who would be 29/30 would be Mahrez, Gundo and KDB, everyone else in the squad will be under 27, so I think this cycle could last a good 3-4 years again.

 

[Tom Cato]

Are you saying United weren't expecting to win the title in 16/17?

Because that was clearly the goal under Mourinho, until it became clear his football was nearly as tedious as Van Gaal's.

Hard to take this post seriously on the whole when it describes racking up 198 points over two seasons as "meeting domestic achievements".

In 16/17 when we came 6th?

You know very well that Pep was brought here to win the Champions League with Manchester City. He's failed to do so with both Bayern AND City respectively.

Meeting domestic expecations = Winning the League. He's not won the Champions League. He has had enormous success with Barcelona like I previously stated.

I'm questioning wether Pep is the type of manager that is a team builder, or a tactician that works best when he can buy the players he wants when he wants. Until Pep manages a team that doesn't start off at the top when he takes control, that will forever remain a question unanswered.

 

[berbatrick]

Depends on when. Basically, I think he's a surefire success if he took over after Ferguson or Moyes, no way if he took over after Jose, and I'm unsure if it was after LvG or right now.

The team in 2013 had Rio, Evans, Rafael, Evra, Carrick, Nani, RvP, and Welbeck who could fit into his system, on the borderline there was Rooney, Young (as full-back), Cleverley, Kagawa. It would be curtains for Vidic, Valencia, Smalling, Jones, Fletcher, Anderson. Basically he'd be doing the type of cull LvG did.
There's a base to build from, but it would need investment in creative midfielders and wingers. KdB, Fabregas, Kroos, Thiago, Ozil, di Maria, Sanchez, Mata, and Coman moved clubs around that time, so it's possible.

Taking over after Moyes is similar except for Rio, which means additional big spend on CBs. Think this one works out too.

After LvG, eh. There's Blind, Shaw, Martial and Rashford who would make it, and Herrera, Mata, Young as the maybes. It would mean buying new first-choice, top-quality CBs, RB, CMs and a forward. Massive rebuild just after LvG's rebuild failed. Not sure if the club would allow it, though to be fair this was the summer of Pogba, Mkhi, Bailly, Zlatan.

After Jose, no. Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Shaw are in, Bailly, Herrera, and Lindelof are maybes. Needs a new right-winger, 2 more CMs, and 2-3 defenders. 3rd rebuild in 6 years, no way.

Now? Slightly better. Rashford, Fernandes, Greenwood, Pogba, Shaw, Diallo(?) and one of Maguire/Lindelof/Bailly would be in, with Martial and Cavani as maybes. Would need a new first-choice CB, CM and a RB.

I think in general the amount of spending in general is a bit exaggerated by what he has done at City. There he has infinite backup players, but he wasn't always like that - Barca won the 2009 CL final with 40-year-old Sylvinho at LB, Yaya Toure at CB, and Puyol RB.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

In 16/17 when we came 6th?

Yes, you don't need to put it in bold. We were level on points with City the previous season and broke the world transfer record in the summer.

As for starting off at the top and all the other usual stuff people use to dismiss Guardiola, since we're talking about league finishes, Barcelona had just finished third on 67 points when he took charge. Mourinho managed 69 in 16/17.

 

[Tom Cato]

Yes, you don't need to put it in bold. We were level on points with City the previous season and broke the world transfer record in the summer.

As for starting off at the top and all the other usual stuff people use to dismiss Guardiola, since we're talking about league finishes, Barcelona had just finished third on 67 points when he took charge. Mourinho managed 69 in 16/17.

We came 5th the season before, a ocean behind Leicester, and placed in a group of 5-6 teams. Paul Pogba joined ahead of the 16/17 season, he was aquired in August of 2016. Neither City nor Manchester United had great seasons in 16/17 either, we came 6th, City third.

We've never been a real contender for a title challenge since 2013. The best argument we have for that is Money spent that never materialized in anything other than a 2nd place finish in 17/18 and a 3rd in 19/20 as anything to take note of. The seasons besides that since SAF retired have been outright embarrassing.

Gündoğan, Nolito, Sané, Gabriel Jesus, Bravo and Stones were bought ahead of the 16/17 campaign - They did not win any trophies that year.

Ahead of 17/18 they bought Ederson, Mendy, Walker, Laporte, Bernardo Silva, Danilo

Apart from the 18/19 winow I don't believe City has had one year where they did not spend over 150 millon Euro or above on transfers.

And Im not even saying that United have not spent money, because we certainly have. The difference is that our recuitment compared to that of City has been shocking. There's no comparison on the quality of players the two clubs have brought in over the past 4-5 years.

I'm asking a perfectly legitimate question, no reason to get so agressive about it.

 

[drunkmonkmeth]

Both pep abd klop wouldve brougjt success to our club

 

[broccoli]

Nah, he'd need to buy better defenders, better fullbacks and a new winger. Perhaps he'd change De Gea for another keeper more confortable with his feet.

 

[Kostov]

He would have cleared all these after one year max just like what he did with City's deadwood. He doesn't endure mediocrity.

Our previous managers took long to clear the deadwood. It was their problem.

None of our managers got the kind of backing Pep got at City regarding transfer funds. Getting clear of deadwood is also probably on Woodward and not just on the managers.
He doesn’t endure mediocrity by everyone not just the players, that’s why he moved to a well run club and why he hasn’t moved back to Barca yet.

 

[reddevilz007]

For 700m, we would have been better under Pep. Why? Players want to play for Pep, rather than a Moyes, Mourinho, LVG or OGS.

We had to convince most of our players by offering generous wages. Whereas Pep, players are willing to take less just to play for him.

 

[Born2Lose]

He'd have binned Martial and DDG at least. But let's be honest, if Liverpool hadn't imploded they'd be top of the league by a mile now. That we're 2nd in the league with obvious weaknesses across the team says a lot about the quality of the league this year.

Mourinho on the other hand was a massive flop. The main reason I was ok about him joining was I thought he'd sort the defence at the very least and leave us in a better place when had his usual 3rd season meltdown. How wrong I was..

 

[Sky1981]

the cycle of the last team ended winning the league in 2018/19 and the new cycle started last season, that's why I find it amusing when people say Guardiola can't build a team, probably not from scratch but he can with money, and this is probably now solely his squad, with the exception of Sterling, Aguero, Ferna the players we've got rid of the last 2 seasons played parts in Pelligrini and Mancini winning teams, none of this squad going forward (assuming Aguero and Fernandinho leave at the end of this season) will have.

that 2018/19 league winning squad now doesn't have

Kompany, Danilo, Mangala, Delph, Otamendi, Silva, Sane all replaced with Ake, Torres, Dias, Rodri and Cancelo

realistically I can see Fernandinho, Aguero and possibly Walker going at the end of this season which would mean the only players we would have who would be 29/30 would be Mahrez, Gundo and KDB, everyone else in the squad will be under 27, so I think this cycle could last a good 3-4 years again.

It's like saying davinci can't build a brickhouse since he needs more money to build something better

 

[Jibbs]

Had Sir Alex presented the case for United more enthusiastically and cinvincingly to Pep instead of indulging in Scottish nepotism, things would have been much different.

 

[Sandikan]

Doubt he'd have done much better than Jose.

For starters, he picked up Aguero, D Silva, Kompany, Sterling and De Bruyne.
Arguably still the best players they've had in the last 10 years.

Jose had to buy big to bring Pogba and Lukaku in, to try and match their De Bruyne and Aguero.

Meanwhile, Pep, already having them in situ, was able to raise full back prices to 50m, and bring in 3 expensive ones at the same time.
Plus a number of other huge signing defenders along the lines too.

Much easier to come into City with infinite money, invincibility from media scrutiny for their "dealings", until very recently, and even then they were thrown out, and most importantly, a lot less expectations and fan base.

On the downside though, winning 10 titles for City won't get him the same place in history as winning for United would.

 

[Spaghetti]

quality young team, hahaha

Bravo
Willy C
Sagna
Toure
Zabaleta
Fernandinho
Kompany
Kolarov
Navas
Silva
Clichy
Nolito

all the wrong side of 30

Not one full back under the age of 31, only players in prime aged 25-29 were KDB, Gundo, Delph, Aguero and Otamendi, we were a creaking aging team full of players far past their best who just scraped 4th the season before.

edit -

and the season before was even worse, the only players we had under the age of 25 were

Stering, Denayer, Zucuilini, Roberts and Kelichi, every other players was 25+ with 12 being over the age of 30

The squad had needed a massive overhaul before Pep came and it was only his 2nd season when he ripped it up by spending £150m on full backs.

I think you might have your seasons mixed up a bit with a few of them. Didn’t Pep sign Bravo?

By “young” I don’t mean 18-20 year olds. I was comparing to what Ferguson left in defence and attack.

Pep inherited a prime Yaya, Kompany, De Bruyne, Silva and Aguero. Plus the likes of Fernandinho, Sterling, Nasri etc. It’s a pretty good start.

 

[Marnsky68]

Ammmm... I think he maybe would yeah if our owners didn’t drive him crazy enough to quit before now but if you mean since Ole started then I absolutely don’t think he would with the players here. The squad is still too lacking in key components. Bruno is masking over a lot, it’s just testament to the force of nature he is. Involved in over 50 goals in a year. 50! He’s a machine and leadership by example like that is priceless.

You raise some good points there, but don't you think most of our better players are lacking proper coaching. I feel there is no real consistency in the way we play. You do get the sense that we don't have an actual style of play(every game is different in style). If you were to compare city's players to ours I feel we arent far off it's the brand of football that we play I am most concerned with. Patterns of play should be repetitive. It's as if oftentimes all our players do is show up to training run around, play 5 or whatever aside and then on match day replicate the whole process, if it works happy days if doesn't then well we go again rinse repeat till it pays off. Time will tell if its indeed the coaching or the players or a combination of both. By the way agree on Bruno's application is outta this world, even he, I believe with better coaching has several gears to go.

 

[wolvored]

Of course he would and maybe the Champions League. FA and league cups as well.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

We came 5th the season before, a ocean behind Leicester, and placed in a group of 5-6 teams. Paul Pogba joined ahead of the 16/17 season, he was aquired in August of 2016. Neither City nor Manchester United had great seasons in 16/17 either, we came 6th, City third.

We've never been a real contender for a title challenge since 2013. The best argument we have for that is Money spent that never materialized in anything other than a 2nd place finish in 17/18 and a 3rd in 19/20 as anything to take note of. The seasons besides that since SAF retired have been outright embarrassing.

None of this counters my point. Your original post said "build something from the ground up" at a club not already expecting to win the title, as if that isn't exactly what United expected at the time. We were aiming to win the league in both 15/16 and 16/17, and the reason we didn't manage it or even get close to challenging was because the managers did poorly. Not because it was impossible :saying we've never been a real contender since 2013 isn't the same as saying we couldn't have been no matter what we did in that time.

Give a manager of the caliber of Guardiola (or Klopp, Simeone, Allegri, possibly a couple of others) the United job in the summer of '16, hand them as much money as Mourinho was given, and they'd pull off a title challenge. There's no reason to assume recruitment would have been poor regardless of who was in charge, just like there's no reason to assume players like Lukaku and Mkhitaryan would have been as poor playing under a better manager (again, Mourinho had an attack of Zlatan, golden boy Martial, Bundesliga player of the season Mkhitaryan, not-yet-useless Mata, and Rashford that season with Pogba in midfield. And Bournemouth scored more goals than us.)

And your original post is exactly the kind of thing people with agendas use to dismiss Guardiola as some fraud who only ever manages on easy mode. Literally saying his accomplishments are "not as much a result of his managerial ability" while the guy breaks records all over the shop.

 

[DoneDaDa]

But winning the league without KDB proves my point. He doesnt just need top players in the 11 but top players behind those as well.
Im not denying we spend money but not to the levels Pep needs at City and we needed a lot more work done on our squad than they did.
If Pep could lessen his spend and achieve the same results with lesser players then he wouldnt be spending what he has at City.
United was a challenge when he had that choice but he went to the side with one of the best attacks in Europe already there who were on for the quadruple when he agreed to join with an unlimited pot of money behind him.
I dont think Pep brings us to the elite level because I dont think Pep has that fight in him.

But it doesn't prove your point...

What top players behind him Zinchenko? Who isn't naturally a FB and has been benching his 50m FB? Or is it Foden? The same player people thought Pep would ruin or never get game time now he's benching Sterling (50m) and Mahrez(60-70m) at times? Or is it Jesus? I mean this forum was fully confident that Martial and Rashford were superior players. Maybe Gundo who City got for 20-25M because he was a player that was finished and City faced no competition for him, City fans wanted his head up until this season, or is it Ferran Torres who they got for around 20-25M? These players have been Pep depth signing and the ones that have been performing and benching some of the big money signings.

I can't say from 2016, but I believe Pep would win the PL with current United. Only some United fans are sleeping on the quality. Hell if Ole didn't have to go up against Pep he'd even win the title with this squad.

 

[Lukaku's first touch#]

Definitely. He would have also pushed the board to buy more quality players

 

[el3mel]

City have never spent plus 60m on any player under Pep except for Laporte (70m) as far as I'm concerned. They actually refused to sign several overpriced players like Maguire or Sanchez with him agreeing with the board on this as well. The difference is we used to splash 80 and 90m on one player every summer thinking this one player will solve all our problems while City were distributing their spending over several players with each one costing 50-60m max. City spent a lot, but never on one player. If we have followed the City module in spending since Guardiola was hired, no doubt we would have been in a much better place now.

Yes, a lot of his signings failed too, Several of them were hit and miss, but it's shadowed by this fact, that they don't actually overspend for any player but sign a lot, so some of them failing isn't an issue, it's bound to happen when you think about it, while every failure of a signing we made was made more glaring because we spent the majority of budget on such player. Fergie signed several poor players, but no one is gonna focus on this because he signed a lot and many of them were success, so it's normal several others will fail too. Different story when you sign one +90m player every season with the rest being cheap options at 30m or less. Of course in this case if this +90m player fails, it will be a huge problem.

I have no doubt in 2 years Pep would have made us a title winner. He needed one year of rebuild at City to dominate. Here he would have probably needed an additional season. He would have never let the likes of Darmian, Young, Valencia, Lingard, Smalling, Jones ..etc stay longer than one season here, because he doesn't endure mediocrity. He wouldn't have bought Lukaku, Sanchez, Pogba or, hell, even Maguire, but would have used their money to sign more players in most positions. The rebuild would have gone faster and more organized than what we have been doing signing any top name we can afford and thinking this will bring us the title.

 

[The Brown Bull]

Easy to answer this one. Yes and and an emphatic yes at that.
I was massively disappointed when Pep chose City over us. I thought our "name" or "legend" if you prefer would have meant he would want to add his chapter to our history. To go down in football history in the same breath as Busby and Ferguson.
Chosing City over us was like chosing Frankfurt over Bayern.
But he did it.

 

[SAFMUTD]

If given the funds absolutely, if you're going to spend big then Pep can warrant titles. He certainly gets his style really implemented into his teams.

With our current squad its hard to know but I think our odds would be way higher.

Hes a great great coach its a shame we never went for him and now after City we'll never have him.

 

[croadyman]

Had Sir Alex presented the case for United more enthusiastically and cinvincingly to Pep instead of indulging in Scottish nepotism, things would have been much different.

Yeah by the sounds of it Fergie's accent cost us Guardiola & that toy story puppet messed up getting Klopp

 

[Eternitiy]

Honestly I wish so much he was at United. I have dreams sometimes that he is our manager. I'm not sure if that is healthy or not.

 

[croadyman]

Honestly I wish so much he was at United. I have dreams sometimes that he is our manager. I'm not sure if that is healthy or not.

Yeah sickening to see him so dominant at our city rivals when he should have been the chosen one not bloody Moyes, the trouble was Fergie probably thought David won't get rid of all the backroom staff but unfortunately he did and then alienated Rio & Vidic too which made it worse.

 

[Champagne Football]

Garbage managers like Mancini and Pellegrini have won league titles at City. It's not a huge deal to win a league title when there's that level of financial muscle.

Pep is a little overrated despite being a wonderful elite manager. He had done good work developing Foden and has signed some brilliant players over the years. He's a clear level or two above Jose Mourinho.

But there's a ton of managers who could easily do at City what Pep is doing there with that kind of spending power - Marco Rose, Pochettino, Brendan Rodgers, Julian Nagelsmann, Flick