If the squad is so poor, then how is last season's winning streak explained?

InspiRED

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The lack of logic is that you're using last season (under Ole) as some sort of proof that the players are good enough.

Now you're saying that last season proves the players are good enough when they're all fit so he should be doing better this season with a thinner squad and injuries?

He clearly didn't have the players outside the first choice starting 11 last season to implement his style of play. Lost 3 midfielders/forwards, got a £15m cheap signing from the Championship and now should have the squad to do it?
I'm saying the disparity in performances between 'all players available' and a couple of key injuries is unacceptable. It's something you never really see in elite coaches teams. For example when Klopp took over the dippers he had Lallana fulfilling a key role for him til he could improve it. I know they finished eighth that season but watching them you could see there was a system (and they got to the EL final). Meanwhile we can't get a shot on target away against AZ Alkmaar after 9 months.

Top managers build systems, because systems are easier to control and predict. We have a system that works in one situation, when all players are fit and in form. A key injury and we go down to looking like midtable battlers. This is obviously a recipe for disaster.

Additionally, I made the point that Lukaku was want away because he'd been pushed down the pecking order in favour of Rashford. That was 19 goals lost from the team. Ole should have foreseen the lack of squad depth or read the situation better that top brass would fail him with replacements.

I'm not saying it's an easy job. But I am saying Ole is not the right person for it.
 

Rista

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So we're now pretending the players that left are the players that Ole "lost", as in he had no say in it, but the players that we brought in are all on him. Even by that logic surely the 160 million could have been spent more wisely then if it leaves our squad so thin that we need better players to beat the likes of Crystal Palace, West Ham and Rochdale and that we're not competing for top 4?
 

InspiRED

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I would say the decision to 'favour Rashford, let Lukaku leave knowing that Rashford would be main goal threat in the event of injury to Martial is a real illustration of Ole's naivety with the squad.

Also, who said Sanchez was done? He's 30 years old with previously world class form behind him. He hasn't had a cruciate ligament injury. Is it really just a given that he is done and no manager could get more out of him?
 

Dante

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I would say the decision to 'favour Rashford, let Lukaku leave knowing that Rashford would be main goal threat in the event of injury to Martial is a real illustration of Ole's naivety with the squad.

Also, who said Sanchez was done? He's 30 years old with previously world class form behind him. He hasn't had a cruciate ligament injury. Is it really just a given that he is done and no manager could get more out of him?
Maybe you only started watching United in the last few weeks, in which case I apologise. But Ole actually decided to make Martial the main goal threat. Rashford is second choice at CF.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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I would say the decision to 'favour Rashford, let Lukaku leave knowing that Rashford would be main goal threat in the event of injury to Martial is a real illustration of Ole's naivety with the squad.

Also, who said Sanchez was done? He's 30 years old with previously world class form behind him. He hasn't had a cruciate ligament injury. Is it really just a given that he is done and no manager could get more out of him?
Alexis has had more than enough opportunities. He’s so done at this level. Fans keep hyping themselves up only to get disappointed.

I agree there should have been another option upfront but that should never have been Alexis.
 

InspiRED

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Maybe you only started watching United in the last few weeks, in which case I apologise. But Ole actually decided to make Martial the main goal threat. Rashford is second choice at CF.
Think you need to re-read the sentence that you bolded again. And no need for the little dig there.
 

POF

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I'm saying the disparity in performances between 'all players available' and a couple of key injuries is unacceptable. It's something you never really see in elite coaches teams. For example when Klopp took over the dippers he had Lallana fulfilling a key role for him til he could improve it. I know they finished eighth that season but watching them you could see there was a system (and they got to the EL final). Meanwhile we can't get a shot on target away against AZ Alkmaar after 9 months.

Top managers build systems, because systems are easier to control and predict. We have a system that works in one situation, when all players are fit and in form. A key injury and we go down to looking like midtable battlers. This is obviously a recipe for disaster.

Additionally, I made the point that Lukaku was want away because he'd been pushed down the pecking order in favour of Rashford. That was 19 goals lost from the team. Ole should have foreseen the lack of squad depth or read the situation better that top brass would fail him with replacements.

I'm not saying it's an easy job. But I am saying Ole is not the right person for it.
Lallana who was a key player in Klopp's early years was one of England's best players. He was a quality player pre injury. That Lallana would walk into this United team.

The reason the quality drops so significantly with a couple of injuries is because so does the quality of the players.

Going back to your original point, if Ole is capable of getting the first 11 playing a quality style of attacking football, he just needs more players of that style and quality.

He was comfortable letting Lukaku leave without a replacement because he's an expensive misfit with a bad attitude. It's culture over talent at the moment. If the club is serious about a long term rebuild, the current results shouldn't be a surprise or a concern.
 

RepardReece

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Underrated? :D he won player of the season, which was ridiculous at the time. And even now, people want to give a mediocre player 300k a week. So, underrated? He is exactly the opposite.


Easy schedule? We have easy games now but that still doesn't matter. The biggest change was probably Ole's positive mindset compared to Mourinho's. He brought happiness and that only works for so long.
Herrera never got praise for his performances at all, and you can see the massive impact it's made in our midfield this season. Yes 300k a week is way too much but that's him asking for it not us fans? Underrated as in us fans don't rate him, at which a lot didn't I've seen it loads on these forums and elsewhere. People forget he had similar stats to kante the season Chelsea won the league. Not saying he's remotely as good as Kante before you say that.
 

Crashoutcassius

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I would say the decision to 'favour Rashford, let Lukaku leave knowing that Rashford would be main goal threat in the event of injury to Martial is a real illustration of Ole's naivety with the squad.

Also, who said Sanchez was done? He's 30 years old with previously world class form behind him. He hasn't had a cruciate ligament injury. Is it really just a given that he is done and no manager could get more out of him?
He is done at this level. Showed it over many many games. Might be fine in Italy.
 

berbatrick

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1. 4-3-3 suited Herrera and Pogba.

2. Pogba's form.

3. Herrera, Matic, Martial and Rashford were in decent form.

4. Smalling is less bad than people think.
 

TwoSheds

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1. 4-3-3 suited Herrera and Pogba.

2. Pogba's form.

3. Herrera, Matic, Martial and Rashford were in decent form.

4. Smalling is less bad than people think.
Have to agree with this. We had a decent first team (outside of right back) and lacked quality in depth last year. We then promptly sold most of our little depth and lost an important first teamer without replacing him.
 

jesperjaap

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Called a honeymoon period and also with it, everything went right for us, taking most of the chances we created, luck of decisions etc etc. PSG game a prime example, we were absolutely battered, were pretty poor, but scored at the right times.

This is probably the worst United side since Ferguson retired as well. We arent so poor due to lack of effort, we arent so poor due to negative football....we are so poor because of a total lack of quality in the side, we have a squad of squad players and barely any first eleven whatsoever. For me only DeGea even though he hasnt been great the last few months, Maguire and Bissaka are players worthy of a first eleven shirt at our club.

We did decently in terms of getting players out of the door over the summer, even tough a few were on loan. 2 of 3 of our signings were good but we really need to be realistic here:

Mata, Young and Matic are finished as top premier league players.....we gave two of them new contracts

Fred, Pogba and Martial have cost us nearly £200m in transfer fees combined, bar Fred they have been here several years now and the three of them combined are barely worth more than half of that fee, forget ability, performances have been inconsistent.....sell the lot of them

Rojo, Dalot, Perreira none of them are really any good, had hopes for the two younger ones but they are no better than the youngsters we have coming through.

McTominay, Lindelof, Lingard, James and even Rashford.....all doing "ok" but lets be honest, none of them really are actually good enough to be more than very good squad players...we are over rating mediocrity

We do have a lot of youngsters and I am very excited to see how Tuanzabe and Greenwood develop as I think they can be top players even during this season, the rest will need much more time I believe.

I would keep DeGea, Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire, Tuanzabe, Jones, Bissaka, McTominay, Rashford, Greenwood, James, Lingard and add the youngsters more and more during the season....

But we failed massively only makin gtwo key signings in the summer, we needed about 8! Still need to sign a whole new midfield and attack in my opinion, we only sorted out the defence reasonably.

I cant ever remember watching us and never thinking we were going to score and creating nothing because there is no quality at all. Even on the Ron Atkinson days there was exciting football and good attacking players, this side is bereft of genuine talent and application in one package throughout the midfield and attack, its painful to see
 

TwoSheds

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Called a honeymoon period and also with it, everything went right for us, taking most of the chances we created, luck of decisions etc etc. PSG game a prime example, we were absolutely battered, were pretty poor, but scored at the right times.

This is probably the worst United side since Ferguson retired as well. We arent so poor due to lack of effort, we arent so poor due to negative football....we are so poor because of a total lack of quality in the side, we have a squad of squad players and barely any first eleven whatsoever. For me only DeGea even though he hasnt been great the last few months, Maguire and Bissaka are players worthy of a first eleven shirt at our club.

We did decently in terms of getting players out of the door over the summer, even tough a few were on loan. 2 of 3 of our signings were good but we really need to be realistic here:

Mata, Young and Matic are finished as top premier league players.....we gave two of them new contracts

Fred, Pogba and Martial have cost us nearly £200m in transfer fees combined, bar Fred they have been here several years now and the three of them combined are barely worth more than half of that fee, forget ability, performances have been inconsistent.....sell the lot of them

Rojo, Dalot, Perreira none of them are really any good, had hopes for the two younger ones but they are no better than the youngsters we have coming through.

McTominay, Lindelof, Lingard, James and even Rashford.....all doing "ok" but lets be honest, none of them really are actually good enough to be more than very good squad players...we are over rating mediocrity

We do have a lot of youngsters and I am very excited to see how Tuanzabe and Greenwood develop as I think they can be top players even during this season, the rest will need much more time I believe.

I would keep DeGea, Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire, Tuanzabe, Jones, Bissaka, McTominay, Rashford, Greenwood, James, Lingard and add the youngsters more and more during the season....

But we failed massively only makin gtwo key signings in the summer, we needed about 8! Still need to sign a whole new midfield and attack in my opinion, we only sorted out the defence reasonably.

I cant ever remember watching us and never thinking we were going to score and creating nothing
because there is no quality at all. Even on the Ron Atkinson days there was exciting football and good attacking players, this side is bereft of genuine talent and application in one package throughout the midfield and attack, its painful to see
Do you not remember Moyes and LVG then?
 

filibuster

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That winning streak is the result of some talented players who played for their ego when Mourinho got sacked. After the honeymoon was over, the results went back to normal, which shows you have talent and ego, but that's pretty much it. Some of your best players were sold and those who stayed are not the most professional, hence you got worse and worse.

Injuries play an important part too, but that just shows a lack of planning at higher levels.
 

jesperjaap

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Do you not remember Moyes and LVG then?
Point being? I didnt even mention any of the managers post Ferguson or style of football. I said its possibly the worst side I can remember since Ferguson retired as it is a side putting the effort in, with a reasonable defence but is so bereft of any quality it is incapable of creating anything, I was merely talking about the players and how terrible it was we only made key signings this summer, so again what is your completely unrelated point meant to mean?
 

TwoSheds

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Point being? I didnt even mention any of the managers post Ferguson or style of football. I said its possibly the worst side I can remember since Ferguson retired as it is a side putting the effort in, with a reasonable defence but is so bereft of any quality it is incapable of creating anything, I was merely talking about the players and how terrible it was we only made key signings this summer, so again what is your completely unrelated point meant to mean?
My point is we often looked like we were never going to score or create anything under both Moyes and LVG. Totally unrelated of course.
 

sammsky1

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He is done at this level. Showed it over many many games. Might be fine in Italy.
:rolleyes:

Lukaku is almost certainly ‘done’ at our pathetic level. Good for him he can rejoin his elite CL level whilst we still have ‘Rashy’ and Beanz.
 

Mickson

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Herrera never got praise for his performances at all, and you can see the massive impact it's made in our midfield this season. Yes 300k a week is way too much but that's him asking for it not us fans? Underrated as in us fans don't rate him, at which a lot didn't I've seen it loads on these forums and elsewhere. People forget he had similar stats to kante the season Chelsea won the league. Not saying he's remotely as good as Kante before you say that.
You can't be, per definition, underrated if the majority of the fans rate you as the best player. I would even say that he wasn't the best player, so I would say that he's closer to being overrated. The fact that he never played for Spain, and that he barely can get a game for PSG would suggest that. Just ask Mourinho and LvG as well, two experienced managers who did not rate him particularly high. He runs around a lot and is good in our pressing game under Ole but isn't exactly world-class and his positional sense is very suspect. Not an exceptional ball-player, passing player or anything like that either.
 

mitchmouse

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if it's so good, how do you explain the results since February, not winning an away game since PSG and losing to relegate teams?
 

Buster15

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It was the result of two things.
A new manager bounce.
A high level of confidence.
 

Ish

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Ouch.
It also completely blows the notion that Roy Hodgson is a crap manger.
Yeah, I'd say he's a good manager - for a specific "objective" probably. Maybe safety/midtable. Like Allardyce etc. But i guess once you fail to make the step up to "top 6" clubs (whatever that means these days :lol:), you're written off as crap way too easily - especially as there are probably quite a few levels/ratings between exceptional/great & crap. I say all this having forgotten what Roy's achieved in his younger days of course.
 

bestisyettocome

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That's laughably bad. Relegation form indeed.
We can clearly see if this is replicated for the season we are heading into the championship - new manager needed now to stabilise us and investment in January. In my opinion if we stay up this season it should be viewed as success - yes we have fallen that low. Waiting until January to change Managers will see us firmly in a dog fight and do we have the players to do that?
 

RedIan

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Honeymoon period and we got lucky in several games with late winners or goals against run of play...
Once the relief that Morhino had gone evaporated, they reverted to type and were crap again... and have gotten worse..
The team/squad simply isn’t strong enough to compete for top 4 or even 6. Mid table at best now. Embarrassing transfer activity, to many out and not enough in. Just a few raw kids of debatable ability chucked in at the deep end.
 

Ish

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We can clearly see if this is replicated for the season we are heading into the championship - new manager needed now to stabilise us and investment in January. In my opinion if we stay up this season it should be viewed as success - yes we have fallen that low. Waiting until January to change Managers will see us firmly in a dog fight and do we have the players to do that?
Yep. We're in freefall.
 

luke511

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Paul Pogba playing at his best, along with having a functional, well balanced centre midfield. As soon as Wolves took the happiness factor away and exposed Solskjaer then the cracks started to show again.
 

Beachryan

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How many matches have these XI played together:
De Gea, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Pogba, McT, Rashford, James, Martial, Greenwood?

Basically none.

I find it extremely difficult to judge Ole when hes having to field at least 3/4 of Young, Rojo, Pereira, Matic, Mata, Fred.

Those players would all struggle to get minutes at any other PL club, and are making up almost half our XI. What do people expect?!
 

Sp00ks11

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If the squad is so poor, then how is last season's winning streak explained?

Go back and watch highlights of that winning run, it really is not as convincing or as great as was widely made out at the time. Some very lucky results in that run.

 

lysglimt

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I'm saying the disparity in performances between 'all players available' and a couple of key injuries is unacceptable. It's something you never really see in elite coaches teams. For example when Klopp took over the dippers he had Lallana fulfilling a key role for him til he could improve it. I know they finished eighth that season but watching them you could see there was a system (and they got to the EL final). Meanwhile we can't get a shot on target away against AZ Alkmaar after 9 months.

Top managers build systems, because systems are easier to control and predict. We have a system that works in one situation, when all players are fit and in form. A key injury and we go down to looking like midtable battlers. This is obviously a recipe for disaster.

Additionally, I made the point that Lukaku was want away because he'd been pushed down the pecking order in favour of Rashford. That was 19 goals lost from the team. Ole should have foreseen the lack of squad depth or read the situation better that top brass would fail him with replacements.

I'm not saying it's an easy job. But I am saying Ole is not the right person for it.
It's an almost impossible job short-term - we are 2-3 players short. And when we are 2-3 players short and get Close to 10 players injured, everyone can understand that it can't be done.
 

brownyorkshireman

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Ole didn't change the style of play much post-mourinho. We still played deep, counter attacking football. Ole just improved the players confidence levels. We then went on an amazing run beating teams and eventually teams decided instead of attacking against us- to sit back and counter us. Once they did that, we struggled.The same problem is present this season-teams are sitting back watching us struggle to break teams down and eventually counterattacking to score a goal or two.
 

InspiRED

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I think we can all agree it's not a black and white issue. The squad or the manager.

The squad is poor for the amount of money spent.

Having said that it is, or at the very very least, WAS, capable of putting more than one goal past Astana and not getting outplayed and beaten by relegation bound Newcastle with barely a shot on target.
 

Hughie77

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As mentioned, Herrera was still there, lukaku as well, although the rest seemed to put in an extra shift , winning became a habit, then one bad result, equalling giving Ole the job full time, then easy street kicked back in!

Also ole was pretty lucky in some games, the curtain started to slip home to Southampton, scrapping a win, the PSG away was fluke we all new that, there were a few flukey games in Champions league last season seemed to be a pattern.

To lose at home to Cardiff should have had alarm bells ringing! But now the sirens are screaming ..
 

clarkydaz

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If the squad is so poor, then how is last season's winning streak explained?

Go back and watch highlights of that winning run, it really is not as convincing or as great as was widely made out at the time. Some very lucky results in that run.
We were also very clinical with our not many chances created. Now they have regressed horribly
 

Shiva87

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Confidence, and results. Need to win games to build faith in the system. Team has reverted to mean, and Ole seems to be rigid with his 4-2-3-1, which clearly isn't working from an attacking sense. No shots on goal in 2 games. Are we kidding ourselves with that formation...