If you don’t understand why Ole is a gamble worth taking… you’re doing football support wrong

JPRouve

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This is true. However, if we have yet another firing under his watch, surely the next appointment will be taken out of his hands.
If we go by football standards, no. Appointing the correct manager is difficult and if you look around, Woodward hasn't done anything that is out of the ordinary.
 

MoskvaRed

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I see some truly twisted logic in this thread. Ranieri is “mediocre”. Even ignoring the most outstanding title win in English football history (including Clough), that is a ridiculous statement. Rodgers got lucky , after apparently getting lucky in managing Swansea to the PL for the first time, almost winning Liverpool’s first title for 25 years and destroying all records in Scotland, and now having Leicester as the 3rd best team in the country. Meanwhile, our golden boy won a couple of titles in the mighty Norwegian League, piloted Cardiff towards League One, went back to his native 5th tier league and is now managing United’s descent towards mid-table.
 

Litch

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When Ole didn't think he was getting the job, there was a freedom in his approach knowing in principle it was a free hit. Once he got the job, he didn't want to be hit and conformed to the fear of getting it wrong and losing an opportunity he could only have dreamt would happen. Whilst other managers believe that they do it their way, and if it doesn't work out another 'big' job will come their way, Ole if sacked tmw would not be offered another job in the prem and probably not a top 5 job in the championship either. You give someone time if you believe they have proven previously that in time they have been successful. We are giving Ole time because of 14 games which we have yet to see replicated. Ole is like fools gold.....
 

Bastian

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Ole has said he wants a midfielder so not sure what else you wanted? and anyway I don't see that much value in over analysing things said in press conference - they are not usually well thought out statements and Ole in particular tends to be pretty bland with his answers

I said preseason that I thought we were 1 short in midfield, especially on the creative side. But I believe we would have been top4 without the injuries (Pogba is a vital cog in this team), Ole was obviously counting on Matic as he played alot preseason and it's only during the course of the season that relationship seems to have deteriorated.

Also surely you have to give credit to Ole for the step up from McTominay and also the recent improvement in Fred?

Anyway this is all getting far off the original point which is that I am sure Ole wanted more players and was not tootally happy with the squad, but then I think the same is probably true of most PL managers
Fair enough. I guess we just see it a bit differently, in terms of how much Ole could have stressed that point during the window being open. Mind you, I don't think top 4 was a given without the injuries. We are of course much better with a full selection, but we still struggle to break down deep sitting well organised teams. That's where Ole has come up massively short. Our set pieces are still a shambles, to name a couple of things squarely on the manager's shoulders.

I do appreciate your POV.
 

Roboc7

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Who do you want in? Why are you so sure they'll do better than LVG, Mourinho or Solskjaer?
Ole has a long way to before you can even compare him to those two.

There’s no guarantee anyone would be better but this is worst start we’ve ever had in the Premier league, it’s the worst manager we’ve had, with no pedigree other than managing Molde and yet I’m supposed to believe no one can do better and this manager will magically get better because he used to play for us.

If Rodgers was our manager and Ole was at Leicester I don’t believe for one second they would be above us in the table let alone ahead by however many points it is.

It’s untenable Ole is here next season, it wouldn’t be end of world if he stays until end of the season as it’s bordering on a write off already but there has to be a better plan beyond that.
 

Zen86

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That's the joke.
Poch did a fine job with Spurs despite not being backed in the market by his chairman.
What equates to a fine job? Top 4? Runners up in the CL? If we’re arguing that someone worthy should be rebuilding and managing United, maybe someone who’s actually won a trophy would be preferable yes?
 

Leftback99

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Ole has a long way to before you can even compare him to those two.

There’s no guarantee anyone would be better but this is worst start we’ve ever had in the Premier league, it’s the worst manager we’ve had, with no pedigree other than managing Molde and yet I’m supposed to believe no one can do better and this manager will magically get better because he used to play for us.

If Rodgers was our manager and Ole was at Leicester I don’t believe for one second they would be above us in the table let alone ahead by however many points it is.

It’s untenable Ole is here next season, it wouldn’t be end of world if he stays until end of the season as it’s bordering on a write off already but there has to be a better plan beyond that.
LVG spent £250m at a time when players were a lot cheaper and had us playing the worst football i've ever seen in my life. Solskjaer came in and nearly salvaged a season that was a write off under Mourinho. I'll take some convincing that simply changing the manager will have us competing at the top again.

And with the same current bias towards how great Rodgers is i don't believe for one second that Poch would have had Leicester above Spurs if both swapped positions. Not even Guardiola would have had Leicester above City under Rodgers either. Rodgers is just that good right now after all.
 

Roboc7

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LVG spent £250m at a time when players were a lot cheaper and had us playing the worst football i've ever seen in my life. Solskjaer came in and nearly salvaged a season that was a write off under Mourinho. I'll take some convincing that simply changing the manager will have us competing at the top again.

And with the same current bias towards how great Rodgers is i don't believe for one second that Poch would have had Leicester above Spurs if both swapped positions. Not even Guardiola would have had Leicester above City under Rodgers either. Rodgers is just that good right now after all.
Ole has spent 150 already and made the team worse. I’m no fan of LVG but my point is he finished 4th in his first season. Will Ole match that and if LVG is a failure then what is Ole?. Somehow a success I am sure.

Rodgers is just an example that you don’t have to fail. No one is saying he is the Messiah, imagine if Ole was shopping at that level of the transfer market and had to sell a player he didn’t want to. How many excuses would you have then?.

We bought a player from them we deemed to be so good that he was worth a record fee and spent 50m on a RB and their defence is better than ours.

Ole isn’t doing a very good job, most likely a better manager will do a better job.
 

Leftback99

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Ole has spent 150 already and made the team worse. I’m no fan of LVG but my point is he finished 4th in his first season. Will Ole match that and if LVG is a failure then what is Ole?. Somehow a success I am sure.

Rodgers is just an example that you don’t have to fail. No one is saying he is the Messiah, imagine if Ole was shopping at that level of the transfer market and had to sell a player he didn’t want to. How many excuses would you have then?.

We bought a player from them we deemed to be so good that he was worth a record fee and spent 50m on a RB and their defence is better than ours.

Ole isn’t doing a very good job, most likely a better manager will do a better job.
LVG was competing against the worst top 4 in the last 10 years, a time when Leicester could win a title.
Leicester's defence is better than ours because our left back is always injured (even if he wasn't Chilwell is better), Evans is far better than Lindelof and Pereira worth £50m himself. They also have Ndidi protecting them rather than Fred. I thought Leicester would challenge us for top 6 pre season, it's everyone else that seems shocked that they are a good team.
 

Forevergiggs1

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I strongly disagree with the suggestion that he's doing damage. He's signed good players, promoted youth, got our attack working better and improved the work ethic of the squad.
Damage was done in the summer by not signing midfield reinforcements or a number 9 but that damage isn't irreversible. If Ole were to sign Sancho and Maddison the squad would obviously be a lot stronger but many peoples doubts are does Ole have what it takes to manage these sort of players? He's been in charge for a year now and the only tactic he's now employing is playing on the counter because we have fast forwards and a lot of running about without much thought of being set up right.

Ole isn't an up and coming manager. He's had 10 years to find a system that works and tweek it if necessary. Other than a few odd games I can't say I've seen a master tactician at work and in many games it was just the opposite. United manager shouldn't be used as a job to learn the trade. Its one of the 5 biggest clubs in the world and should be treated as such. Nostalgia can only go so far before reality sets in that the biggest clubs deserves better than someone who gets the club because other than that he doesn't have a lot more going for him.
 

fallengt

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This will be remembered as worst timeline. Livepool winning the League, United wrestling with Burnley & Sheffield for 6th place.
 

AneRu

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I didn't say there was anyone demanding the title (although many aren't far away).

Injuries etc are hampering us, why can't it be said? The manager isn't a miracle worker, just as City are losing games because they had no centre backs.

It's easy to sit in hindsight and say we shouldn't have spent on defenders while our whole midfield is injured, it could easily be the other way round if we'd bought a midfielder to sit on the bench and all our centre backs got injured or relying on Dalot at right back.
I didn't say we shouldn't have spent on defenders just that we shouldn't have spent that much on these particular defenders. You know why? We paid fees for the Best Player in The World for those positions when they are not even the best in th league. My issue is we spent outrageous amounts to buy these players and ended up neglecting other key positions.

If we were signing prime Rio Ferdinand I'd understand the need to do everything to sign him. Whilst I like the two players I just don't think that spending that much on them was the most intelligent thing to do considering what we also needed in midfield.
 

VP89

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If we go by football standards, no. Appointing the correct manager is difficult and if you look around, Woodward hasn't done anything that is out of the ordinary.
You really think? I mean the lack of a DoF is far from ordinary and sticking to managerial appointments, changing between two managers of completely different styles and philosophy is also unusual. It's also proven to be quite expensive.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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I see some truly twisted logic in this thread. Ranieri is “mediocre”. Even ignoring the most outstanding title win in English football history (including Clough), that is a ridiculous statement. Rodgers got lucky , after apparently getting lucky in managing Swansea to the PL for the first time, almost winning Liverpool’s first title for 25 years and destroying all records in Scotland, and now having Leicester as the 3rd best team in the country. Meanwhile, our golden boy won a couple of titles in the mighty Norwegian League, piloted Cardiff towards League One, went back to his native 5th tier league and is now managing United’s descent towards mid-table.
Quoted for the hard of reading.

Spot on.
 

momo83

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I see some truly twisted logic in this thread. Ranieri is “mediocre”. Even ignoring the most outstanding title win in English football history (including Clough), that is a ridiculous statement. Rodgers got lucky , after apparently getting lucky in managing Swansea to the PL for the first time, almost winning Liverpool’s first title for 25 years and destroying all records in Scotland, and now having Leicester as the 3rd best team in the country. Meanwhile, our golden boy won a couple of titles in the mighty Norwegian League, piloted Cardiff towards League One, went back to his native 5th tier league and is now managing United’s descent towards mid-table.
Just shows the stupidity.
Ranieri had Chelsea 2nd or 3rd before Roman’s money... and then did what he did at Leicester

Rodgers been a class act since Swansea. Don’t get why he’s mocked for his work at
 

momo83

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This will be remembered as worst timeline. Livepool winning the League, United wrestling with Burnley & Sheffield for 6th place.
You really think if Ole stays its 6th that United are competing for? My opinion 10th or possibly lower.
 

Rafaeldagold

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You really think if Ole stays its 6th that United are competing for? My opinion 10th or possibly lower.
Yeh 6th is optimistic, I’m going with a 11th/12th. And it will be heralded as a majestic season by the Ole in cult & that by the year 2050 he’ll hopefully get us back to Europa League. Only fair as he needs time to learn how to become a good football manager
 

Shark

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You really think if Ole stays its 6th that United are competing for? My opinion 10th or possibly lower.
My feelings too. I’m nowhere close to confident we’ll beat Villa on Sunday. We’ve been slightly better at home, but we also lost to Palace not too long ago.
 

dove

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I see some truly twisted logic in this thread. Ranieri is “mediocre”. Even ignoring the most outstanding title win in English football history (including Clough), that is a ridiculous statement. Rodgers got lucky , after apparently getting lucky in managing Swansea to the PL for the first time, almost winning Liverpool’s first title for 25 years and destroying all records in Scotland, and now having Leicester as the 3rd best team in the country. Meanwhile, our golden boy won a couple of titles in the mighty Norwegian League, piloted Cardiff towards League One, went back to his native 5th tier league and is now managing United’s descent towards mid-table.
I think it's quite clear by now that Ole's fans don't watch/know anything about football apart from United. Their view is completely out of touch with reality. We have a joke of a manager but don't you worry, give him 5 years and he will become good, completely undermining football manager's role. As I mentioned before, our biggest problem is not the board, not Ole and not the players. It's the deluded fanbase. No expectations, no standards, nothing.
 

croadyman

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My feelings too. I’m nowhere close to confident we’ll beat Villa on Sunday. We’ve been slightly better at home, but we also lost to Palace not too long ago.
Yeah and it was ten years ago this month they last won at Old Trafford with an Agbonlahor header.

I really hope that this isn't a bad omen for Sunday and cannot afford to give Hourihane any free kicks near the goal. I also can see Grealish giving us problems too.
 

The Brown Bull

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What equates to a fine job? Top 4? Runners up in the CL? If we’re arguing that someone worthy should be rebuilding and managing United, maybe someone who’s actually won a trophy would be preferable yes?
You don't think he did a fine job?
I believe he did.
 

hobbers

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Ole isn't fit to wipe the arse of the guy who shines Ranieri or Rodgers shoes, strictly from a managerial standpoint.
 

RedSky

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Yeh 6th is optimistic, I’m going with a 11th/12th. And it will be heralded as a majestic season by the Ole in cult & that by the year 2050 he’ll hopefully get us back to Europa League. Only fair as he needs time to learn how to become a good football manager
11th or 12th? I know you're very bitter about Ole being Manager but seriously?
 

Ancient Of Days

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When Ole didn't think he was getting the job, there was a freedom in his approach knowing in principle it was a free hit. Once he got the job, he didn't want to be hit and conformed to the fear of getting it wrong and losing an opportunity he could only have dreamt would happen. Whilst other managers believe that they do it their way, and if it doesn't work out another 'big' job will come their way, Ole if sacked tmw would not be offered another job in the prem and probably not a top 5 job in the championship either. You give someone time if you believe they have proven previously that in time they have been successful. We are giving Ole time because of 14 games which we have yet to see replicated. Ole is like fools gold.....
He knows full well that after this gig is up, he's going back to nowhere.

It's all about self preservation mode now. This job is his precious whereby he will do and say anything to hold on to it whether it's playing 5 at the back, ridding the club of all form of expectations and standards or using the youth as shields to hide behind protect himself from criticism which is what we saw him resort to last Thursday.

We know it's always a win win when you field a team filled of youth and reserves. You get praised if you win lose or draw because everyone knows the excitement generated when local lads get simply selected and they are never going to get blamed for coming up short but if they win it's classed as a brave masterstroke.
 

He'sRaldo

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He knows full well that after this gig is up, he's going back to nowhere.

It's all about self preservation mode now. This job is his precious whereby he will do and say anything to hold on to it whether it's playing 5 at the back, ridding the club of all form of expectations and standards or using the youth as shields to hide behind protect himself from criticism which is what we saw him resort to last Thursday.

We know it's always a win win when you field a team filled of youth and reserves. You get praised if you win lose or draw because everyone knows the excitement generated when local lads get simply selected and they are never going to get blamed for coming up short but if they win it's classed as a brave masterstroke.
Truth is, if you don't like someone you can twist anything they say and do to make them seem bad in your head. That's what it seems like you're doing for Ole right now.

Problem with trying to criticize everything and anything the good criticisms are rendered invalid by the poorly thought out ones.
 

JPRouve

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You really think? I mean the lack of a DoF is far from ordinary and sticking to managerial appointments, changing between two managers of completely different styles and philosophy is also unusual. It's also proven to be quite expensive.
He was talking about the amount of managers under his watch, there is nothing special about it. And even if we talk about style and philosophy most clubs don't follow one and don't expect managers to follow a particular one. Are Ranieri, Shakespeare, Puel and Rodgers representative of a particular philosophy? Are Tata Martino, Luis Enrique and Valverde following a logical line?
You may question Van Gaal to Mourinho but even then it's not actually a massive deal, players are flexible and not marked by styles with some exceptions. The issue with managers is that like players they rise, peak, plateau and decline but unlike players you can't have a competition at their position, you have one and if you have not the correct version you are in trouble.

Now, if you want to look at other things than manager appointment you will have reason to dismiss Woodward but they are not really linked to the amount of managers appointed or their profile otherwise most current CEOs would have to be fired, the successul and the rest.
 

Beans

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When Ole didn't think he was getting the job, there was a freedom in his approach knowing in principle it was a free hit. Once he got the job, he didn't want to be hit and conformed to the fear of getting it wrong and losing an opportunity he could only have dreamt would happen. Whilst other managers believe that they do it their way, and if it doesn't work out another 'big' job will come their way, Ole if sacked tmw would not be offered another job in the prem and probably not a top 5 job in the championship either. You give someone time if you believe they have proven previously that in time they have been successful. We are giving Ole time because of 14 games which we have yet to see replicated. Ole is like fools gold.....
That's an interesting theory. But our change in form under Ole also coincided with Herrera getting injured, which is less nebulous of an influence. We've struggled still without someone to link attack and midfield with the right balance and skill.

Ole seems, to me, to have promise but he's raw and makes mistakes that are understandable considering his lack of experience but no less painful. United doesn't seem like a good place to learn as a manager, it's too demanding a position. If Ole was coming into the job in 1986 we could give him a few years more easily.

But now that he's here, it seems unfair to sack him if he's showing enough promise, which I think he just about is. Hopefully we have someone qualified to determine if he's progressing fast enough, I have my doubts on that account, I have my doubts about every part of the club but the marketing department. I'm still mad Warren Joyce was let go after winning the title with the reserves 3 out of 4 years!
 

JPRouve

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That's an interesting theory. But our change in form under Ole also coincided with Herrera getting injured, which is less nebulous of an influence. We've struggled still without someone to link attack and midfield with the right balance and skill.

Ole seems, to me, to have promise but he's raw and makes mistakes that are understandable considering his lack of experience but no less painful. United doesn't seem like a good place to learn as a manager, it's too demanding a position. If Ole was coming into the job in 1986 we could give him a few years more easily.

But now that he's here, it seems unfair to sack him if he's showing enough promise, which I think he just about is. Hopefully we have someone qualified to determine if he's progressing fast enough, I have my doubts on that account, I have my doubts about every part of the club but the marketing department. I'm still mad Warren Joyce was let go after winning the title with the reserves 3 out of 4 years!
Ole doesn't lack experience, that's the issue here, he has been managing for more 10 years. And he wouldn't get the job in 1986, the club went for a young, yet experienced manager with domestic and continental success.
 

Sky1981

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Ole doesn't lack experience, that's the issue here, he has been managing for more 10 years. And he wouldn't get the job in 1986, the club went for a young, yet experienced manager with domestic and continental success.
Fergie was the 1986 pep. While ron atkinson was the 1980s ole

The closest you'd get to 1986 fegie is post porto iose
 

Zen86

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That's the joke.
I didn't say we shouldn't have spent on defenders just that we shouldn't have spent that much on these particular defenders. You know why? We paid fees for the Best Player in The World for those positions when they are not even the best in th league. My issue is we spent outrageous amounts to buy these players and ended up neglecting other key positions.

If we were signing prime Rio Ferdinand I'd understand the need to do everything to sign him. Whilst I like the two players I just don't think that spending that much on them was the most intelligent thing to do considering what we also needed in midfield.
We did spend too much, but any player we went after was going to cost us a fortune. That’s the problem with everyone knowing a) we have money, b) are desperate, and c) have a recent track record of paying over the odds.

It’s unfortunate that we ended up giving in to fee demands rather than making a stand, but imagine how that would have played out on here, if we either didn’t buy or went for a £30m youngster for CB.
 

JPRouve

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Fergie was the 1986 pep. While ron atkinson was the 1980s ole

The closest you'd get to 1986 fegie is post porto iose
The closest you would get is Klopp, Mourinho was managing the biggest club in Portugal with a clear advantage in terms of recruitment. Klopp took a struggling club, challenged the far bigger club in Germany and then challenged the bigger clubs of the continent and he did that job over 7 years. I'm not taking anything away from Mourinho but his starting point with Porto and his influence are totally different to what SAF did and had to do.
 
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roonster09

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The closest you would get is Klopp, Mourinho was managing the biggest club in Portugal with a clear advantage in terms of recruitment. Klopp took a struggling club, challenged the far bigger club in Germany and the challenged then bigger clubs of the continent and he did that job over 7 years. I'm not taking anything away from Mourinho but his starting point with Porto and his influence are totally different to what SAF did and had to do.
Yeah, Klopp is the closest to Fergie. Also Jose post Porto just outspent rivals y 3x-4x and won titles, the stage was different. Klopp built the team slowly and finally won the league just like SAF did, only difference is SAF then continued it and built a dynasty.
 

Skills

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If we go by football standards, no. Appointing the correct manager is difficult and if you look around, Woodward hasn't done anything that is out of the ordinary.
I think Woodward's biggest failures have been his passiveness and lack of willingness to put the fires out. With each of his appointments, it seems like they need to blow up 10 tonnes of TNT before he'll do anything. If he was willing to make a change more quickly, the club would never have sunk to these lows.

Like you said, hiring a manager is hard. Clubs go through multiple managers, and even the good ones only last for a fairly short time before they're not the 'right fit' anymore.

I personally think, the some of the bigger culprits in our demise have been the fanbase and sanctimonious crap I've read in the OP pretty much confirms my belief. The fanbases of the other bigger clubs across Europe, set the ambition for the club to live up to and are the driving force behind their success. Ours goes the other way, and pretty much eggs the club into being passive while demanding them to waste 100s of millions on projects doomed for failure.
 

redIndianDevil

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What equates to a fine job? Top 4? Runners up in the CL? If we’re arguing that someone worthy should be rebuilding and managing United, maybe someone who’s actually won a trophy would be preferable yes?
No. This idiotic notion is what made us hire the Mourinho cnut. What we desperately need is a coach who can make us play as a team, play in some set way like a possession based system or even a counter attacking system with good passing, movement etc. We will not be challenging for any titles for at least two years IMO, we should get a good coach and try to rebuild.
 

Sky1981

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The closest you would get is Klopp, Mourinho was managing the biggest club in Portugal with a clear advantage in terms of recruitment. Klopp took a struggling club, challenged the far bigger club in Germany and then challenged the bigger clubs of the continent and he did that job over 7 years. I'm not taking anything away from Mourinho but his starting point with Porto and his influence are totally different to what SAF did and had to do.
Fair enough.

But Post Porto trebel, Mourinho back then charm and charisma and the myth behind the man.
 

Sky1981

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No. This idiotic notion is what made us hire the Mourinho cnut. What we desperately need is a coach who can make us play as a team, play in some set way like a possession based system or even a counter attacking system with good passing, movement etc. We will not be challenging for any titles for at least two years IMO, we should get a good coach and try to rebuild.
So you'd think we'd challenge in year 3 with ole at the helm?