If you don’t understand why Ole is a gamble worth taking… you’re doing football support wrong

roonster09

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Mourinho was the best manager we had after Fergie(I know it doesn't say much). There is no need to rewrite history here. Yes, he spent a lot, that doesn't mean that we should've pipped City to the title considering the squad they had and how much they also spent.

After that was LvG, who also won a cup and CL qualification.

Mind, all have underperformed and all deserved to be sacked, but that doesn't mean we should compare a 2nd place finish and 2 cups with wandering midtable - it's incomparable.
This post is exactly the behavior @MackRobinson posted, pointing out failings of Ole to praise Jose when the manager failed at ManUtd and that's they he was sacked. And yes, he failed, any manager who fails to challenge for the league after spending so much money is a failure at that club.

How does it matter who was the best after SAF when everyone was shit, shittier, shittiest.

I don't know why you said "Yes, he spent a lot, that doesn't mean that we should've pipped City to the title considering the squad they had and how much they also spent." when Klopp is showing how to do it by spending as much money as Jose did and negligible if you consider net spend. Only at ManUtd we don't expect manager to get more than sum of its parts.
 

Enigma_87

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Never said it was better Strawman_87. But I do know that Jose was a poor manager for United. Another decade of Ole won't change that.
Do you know how much City spent during that time and the gulf in quality we had before Mourinho took over? Did you honestly expect to beat them to the title after spending that amount? We spent less than City, who also had a top manager and much stronger team to begin with.

If Jose was poor what does that make Ole and Moyes?

For the record Jose did underperform, because you would expect him to win trophies, and although he did, that CL exit was terrible. However the expectations were much higher at the time, compared to now from what I see.

We spent 150m pounds this Summer and now should be content with being midtable because our manager is a nobody and expectations should be low?
 

b82REZ

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I blame my Economics professors for teaching me such useless concepts as statistical significance and unexplained variables. If only I could take those stats at face value, ignoring the mountains of evidence of his failures. Woe is me.
Shame they didn't teach you what a strawman is seeing as you like to keep calling everyone that.
 

VP89

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I blame my Economics professors for teaching me such useless concepts as statistical significance and unexplained variables. If only I could take those stats at face value, ignoring the mountains of evidence of his failures. Woe is me.
Statsitical significance and unexplained variables :lol:

Read his win % and take a walk. I'd like to know how his 81 point season is an "unexplained variable".
 

Enigma_87

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This post is exactly the behavior @MackRobinson posted, pointing out failings of Ole to praise Jose when the manager failed at ManUtd and that's they he was sacked. And yes, he failed, any manager who fails to challenge for the league after spending so much money is a failure at that club.

How does it matter who was the best after SAF when everyone was shit, shittier, shittiest.

I don't know why you said "Yes, he spent a lot, that doesn't mean that we should've pipped City to the title considering the squad they had and how much they also spent." when Klopp is showing how to do it by spending as much money as Jose did and negligible if you consider net spend. Only at ManUtd we don't expect manager to get more than sum of its parts.
Klopp only challenged from his 4th(3rd and a half season on) season at Liverpool. The summer before he mounted a challenge he spent 160m pounds whilst Mourinho who finished 2nd the year before was not backed by the board. Rightly or wrongly is up for a debate.
 

roonster09

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Klopp only challenged from his 4th(3rd and a half season on) season at Liverpool. The summer before he mounted a challenge he spent 160m pounds whilst Mourinho who finished 2nd the year before was not backed by the board. Rightly or wrongly is up for a debate.
So Klopp spent less than Jose to achieve that (to reach 2nd position before spending more money).

How does it matter if Klopp spent after coming 2nd or after coming 4th, they spend money and improved the squad. One improved so much that they won CL, runners up in CL, challenged for the league and now winning the league. Other spend so much money, won Europa league, league cup and irrelevant in league and CL.

Klopp in his second full season was runners up in CL and gained more than 95 points in his 3rd full season along with winning CL.

Also Jose also spend close to 160 million pounds the summer before he "Mounted title challenge" After coming 2nd he spend 70 million and IIRC after coming 2nd, Klopp barely spent anything.

2017-18 before coming 2nd, Jose spent 198 million euros and then spent 70 million in 2018-19, was in 6th place.
2018-19 before coming 2nd, Klopp spent 182 million eruos and then spend 1.9 million in 2019-20 and he is winning PL with ease.

So Jose was backed with 70 million after coming 2nd, Klopp was backed with 1.9 million after coming 2nd. Difference is Klopp is winning PL, Jose took 2nd placed team to 6th.
 

VP89

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Mourinho is irrelevant to the question of whether Ole should keep his job.
Of course, but remembering him and LVG is an interesting point because it shows how managers have been sacked for less.
 

Enigma_87

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Am I missing something here? Who has even said Ole is better than Jose?
The problem is the gulf of expectations between Jose and Ole that people have due to Ole being a shite manager.

We still spent 150m this year - more than any other top side, whilst finishing 6th last year. In context of spending and what MR said, aiming at 3rd and reducing the gap between us and Liverpool and City should be a bare minimum right?
 

nokillingmoths

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Of course, but remembering him and LVG is an interesting point because it shows how managers have been sacked for less.
Indeed. In terms of performance in the job overall jose is way out in front, then lvg, then ole way behind him and finally moyes at the absolute bottom of the lowest pit you could ever find.
 

VP89

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This post is exactly the behavior @MackRobinson posted, pointing out failings of Ole to praise Jose when the manager failed at ManUtd and that's they he was sacked. And yes, he failed, any manager who fails to challenge for the league after spending so much money is a failure at that club.
It's never as straight forward as that. Jose didn't walk into the club with a Firminho or Kane to hand. He walked in needing almost a new midfield, centre backs and 9.

Most of his transfer funds were concentrated on 2 players. Its an easy game to talk sums and act like he and he alone was the pioneer for those transfers but we know the general infrastructure of identifying, approving and valuing targets is extremely flawed at our club. We were notorious to flunk money. That was the case before Jose, during Jose and after Jose. So when you talk about him spending so much money like its all his fault and then complain he didnt challenge billionaire boys city, its a bit harsh.

Ole has walked in and spunked £130m in our defence and I can't see a tangible improvement there. The problem isn't just the manager in the realm of money spent and targets. It's the infrastructure at the club.
 

Enigma_87

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So Klopp spent less than Jose to achieve that (to reach 2nd position before spending more money).

How does it matter if Klopp spent after coming 2nd or after coming 4th, they spend money and improved the squad. One improved so much that they won CL, runners up in CL, challenged for the league and now winning the league. Other spend so much money, won Europa league, league cup and irrelevant in league and CL.

Klopp in his second full season was runners up in CL and gained more than 95 points in his 3rd full season along with winning CL.

Also Jose also spend close to 160 million pounds the summer before he "Mounted title challenge" After coming 2nd he spend 70 million and IIRC after coming 2nd, Klopp barely spent anything.
Well, not really.

80m EUR in 16/17
174m EUR in 17/18
182m EUR in 18/19

Total 436m EUR prior to the season Klopp finished 2nd.

Jose

185m EUR in 16/17
198m EUR in 16/17

Total 383m EUR.

So Klopp spending less to achieve 2nd is a big myth.

EDIT:
just seen your edit - why do you only take the year prior? That's skewing the metrics.
 
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b82REZ

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Mourinho is irrelevant to the question of whether Ole should keep his job.
It isn't because it provides context.

Jose was sacked despite a relatively impressive win rate. Solskjaer has lost more games in a year than Mourinho lost in 2 and half years.

We all agreed Jose needed to be sacked, but we have a divided fanbase on Solksjaer despite his record imitating the record of a relegation standard manager. It just highlights how many people are being lead by the hearts when it comes to this decision.
 

Inigo Montoya

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It isn't because it provides context.

Jose was sacked despite a relatively impressive win rate. Solskjaer has lost more games in a year than Mourinho lost in 2 and half years.

We all agreed Jose needed to be sacked, but we have a divided fanbase on Solksjaer despite his record imitating the record of a relegation standard manager. It just highlights how many people are being lead by the hearts when it comes to this decision.
If you think he was sacked despite a ‘relatively impressive win rate’ you’ve been kidding yourself. The guy was toxic.

Ole is simply out of his depth but that’s the fault of the board for letting hearts rule heads
 

roonster09

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Well, not really.

80m EUR in 16/17
174m EUR in 17/18
182m EUR in 18/19

Total 436m EUR prior to the season Klopp finished 2nd.

Jose

185m EUR in 16/17
198m EUR in 16/17

Total 383m EUR.

So Klopp spending less to achieve 2nd is a big myth.
Ok, Klopp spent more before finishing 2nd in gross (lets ignore Net spend as it would be too embarrassing for Jose), so Klopp spent 250 million to reach CL finals, Jose spent 383 million and barely qualified from round of 16.

Klopp spent 436 million, challenged for league title till last day, 11 point gap over City and overwhelming favorites to win PL, all this after winning CL + runners up in CL.
Jose spent 450+ million, league challenge was over before half of the season, failed to qualify from round of 16 and then was in 6th when he got sacked.

So Klopp spent less in gross and negligible amount when it comes to net, miles better than Jose in every single metric. Klopp after finishing 2nd wasn't backed, still he is winning league. Jose spend 70 million after finishing 2nd, took the team to 6th place. Going by Jose fans, when club don't spend money after finishing 2nd, manager should down tools and finish as low as possible. Strange behavior from Klopp.
 

Resch

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Ole should not be sacked because of the results. He should be sacked for his mass of tactical mistakes. If you want to keep Ole, you have to fix his tactical deficits. Give im a modern assistent and tactical analyst, so he can fix his problems. If the support is not wanted, show him the door!
 

roonster09

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It's never as straight forward as that. Jose didn't walk into the club with a Firminho or Kane to hand. He walked in needing almost a new midfield, centre backs and 9.

Most of his transfer funds were concentrated on 2 players. Its an easy game to talk sums and act like he and he alone was the pioneer for those transfers but we know the general infrastructure of identifying, approving and valuing targets is extremely flawed at our club. We were notorious to flunk money. That was the case before Jose, during Jose and after Jose. So when you talk about him spending so much money like its all his fault and then complain he didnt challenge billionaire boys city, its a bit harsh.

Ole has walked in and spunked £130m in our defence and I can't see a tangible improvement there. The problem isn't just the manager in the realm of money spent and targets. It's the infrastructure at the club.
Jose didn't walk into club with Firmino (who wasn't even that impressive before Klopp) or Kane (who was youngster with multiple loans to lower leagues) but he walked into team with players like De Gea, Martail, Rashford and few other players.

Ignoring all the players who were at the team, Klopp changed his entire 11 with very good signings. Signing is one part of the job, making them part of the team and getting more than sum of it's parts is the biggest challenge, something Klopp is excellent at, while Jose failed.
 

Enigma_87

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Ok, Klopp spent more before finishing 2nd in gross (lets ignore Net spend as it would be too embarrassing for Jose), so Klopp spent 250 million to reach CL finals, Jose spent 383 million and barely qualified from round of 16.

Klopp spent 436 million, challenged for league title till last day, 11 point gap over City and overwhelming favorites to win PL, all this after winning CL + runners up in CL.
Jose spent 450+ million, league challenge was over before half of the season, failed to qualify from round of 16 and then was in 6th when he got sacked.

So Klopp spent less in gross and negligible amount when it comes to net, miles better than Jose in every single metric. Klopp after finishing 2nd wasn't backed, still he is winning league. Jose spend 70 million after finishing 2nd, took the team to 6th place. Going by Jose fans, when club don't spend money after finishing 2nd, manager should down tools and finish as low as possible. Strange behavior from Klopp.
I'm not sure why you have to go with the "Jose fans" crap narrative. You said that Klopp spent less to reach 2nd, it was clearly not true.

Before he was sacked and things started go south Jose wasn't backed by the board and that is clearly visible.

At the end Jose's tenure wasn't a successful one, but the spending was as much as our opponents at the time and really not something you can claim as a reason of failure.

Klopp at the time(and currently) is better manager than Jose, we were again late to appoint him, like we did with LvG.
 

roonster09

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I'm not sure why you have to go with the "Jose fans" crap narrative. You said that Klopp spent less to reach 2nd, it was clearly not true.

Before he was sacked and things started go south Jose wasn't backed by the board and that is clearly visible.

At the end Jose's tenure wasn't a successful one, but the spending was as much as our opponents at the time and really not something you can claim as a reason of failure.

Klopp at the time(and currently) is better manager than Jose, we were again late to appoint him, like we did with LvG.
Well at least finally you got the point of my argument. Well whether Klopp spent more to achieve 2nd position or less depends on whether you consider gross spend or net spend.

EDIT:
just seen your edit - why do you only take the year prior? That's skewing the metrics.
Really you don't know why I took 1 year prior? Maybe because I was replying to this specific post.
The summer before he mounted a challenge he spent 160m pounds whilst Mourinho who finished 2nd the year before was not backed by the board. Rightly or wrongly is up for a debate.
 

VP89

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Jose didn't walk into club with Firmino (who wasn't even that impressive before Klopp) or Kane (who was youngster with multiple loans to lower leagues) but he walked into team with players like De Gea, Martail, Rashford and few other players.

Ignoring all the players who were at the team, Klopp changed his entire 11 with very good signings. Signing is one part of the job, making them part of the team and getting more than sum of it's parts is the biggest challenge, something Klopp is excellent at, while Jose failed.
This is where we will disagree, because Firminho was always a big talent as was Kane.

I never rated Martial as highly as others on here because he's massively inconsistent and struggled to make a huge impact under 2 managers now. His best season is his debut and at 24 he doesn't look much better right now.

Rashford is the same, he's not on Kane level or close when Jose arrived. DDG is a goalie and really not AS relevant to how a manager operates his outfield team (unless you are reliant on him playing out like Pep).

There was a lot lacking with our squad when Jose came. He had to spend and even with his large amounts we could never feasibly expect a title challenge to city unless he forked out way more than that.

And yeah Klopp did brilliant. He went above and beyond. But him being so good doesn't mean Jose was so bad. Klopp just had a phenomenal impact is all. That doesn't mean anything less at other clubs where the infrastructure is way shitter is a failure.

There are groups that will say Jose was a failure and others who will look at that 81 point season and think he overachieved in the league with that squad. Let's just agree to disagree.
 

Jinn

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Just highlighted some of your thoughts, as they reflect what my wider concerns are.. Ole may want to do right, if I was sitting in that seat, I would want the same. But it does not necessarily mean that that I would know how to do the right thing. I don't think Ole knows, and the performances of players would support that assertion. We are fantastically average. Under the management of OGS....think about that.

V briefly on the other two points... Ole is a winner...in football management? In the Premiership? Championship? You should clarify that, because his achievements T Molde don't quite cut it with me... Also, this stuff about 'we don't buy in January..'... Er, says who exactly? Is that policy?

We need some new energy in that team so I do hope we bleedin' well buy in January...
I was talking about his mentality, and i meant his playing career shows that he is a winner.
We normally don't buy much in January window. Look through the history. It's not policy, but quality targets are hard to come by in Jan.

Look we talk about his managerial ability or lack thereof, the man is not doing everything on his own, he has assistant coaches who have worked under some very experienced managers. They must have learned something. You telling me they are not in his ear? You telling me that Ole is so stubborn that he is not taking advice or discussing things with them? Come on, it's not down to tactics only. It's a lack of quality on the pitch, and i'm quite sure that given a few more windows the quality will be addressed. If not, then sack him.
I know the buck stops with the manager, this is football, but i think we need to be reasonable in our judgement.
 

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"Gamble" implies that there is a chance of winning.
 
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Ekeke

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We arent at all good and we arent improving. The only thing thats going to turn it around now is a hail mary in the transfer window and for once we make a big signing that pays off, if Ole lasts that long.

Other than that we can expect to finish 6th or 7th at best which is simply not good enough. If we cant even hit 5th and at least put in a challenge for a top 4 place then there shouldnt even be a question over whether the manager should stay.
 

roonster09

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This is where we will disagree, because Firminho was always a big talent as was Kane.

I never rated Martial as highly as others on here because he's massively inconsistent and struggled to make a huge impact under 2 managers now. His best season is his debut and at 24 he doesn't look much better right now.

Rashford is the same, he's not on Kane level or close when Jose arrived. DDG is a goalie and really not AS relevant to how a manager operates his outfield team (unless you are reliant on him playing out like Pep).

There was a lot lacking with our squad when Jose came. He had to spend and even with his large amounts we could never feasibly expect a title challenge to city unless he forked out way more than that.

And yeah Klopp did brilliant. He went above and beyond. But him being so good doesn't mean Jose was so bad. Klopp just had a phenomenal impact is all. That doesn't mean anything less at other clubs where the infrastructure is way shitter is a failure.

There are groups that will say Jose was a failure and others who will look at that 81 point season and think he overachieved in the league with that squad. Let's just agree to disagree.
If we had Poch and improved Martial, Rashford then people would have said "Martial, Rashford were always a big talent".

Kane might be big talent just like Greenwood is, they were not proven and barely played at top level. Kane wasn't even scoring regularly for championship clubs.

Klopp inherited even shit squad but the way he has worked with them made players like Henderson, Milner look like class players. That's the manager's role.

Jose was at Manutd for 2.5 years, during that time he spent more money than every club bar City, failed to challenge for league title. That's a failure. It wasn't as if other clubs were miles ahead when he took over, every club had lot of work to be done. They did and improved, we did and regressed or had a very short peak.
 
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It isn't because it provides context.

Jose was sacked despite a relatively impressive win rate. Solskjaer has lost more games in a year than Mourinho lost in 2 and half years.

We all agreed Jose needed to be sacked, but we have a divided fanbase on Solksjaer despite his record imitating the record of a relegation standard manager. It just highlights how many people are being lead by the hearts when it comes to this decision.
Fair point, they both deserved the sack though.

Both are faults of the decision makers, Jose because what kind of idiots hire Jose Mourinho and then decide after 2 ”acceptable” years that they don’t agree with his vision? I mean, how did they not know Jose’s vision before the gimps?

The fault with OGS is that he should never have been given this position, it’s not his fault he took the chance of a lifetime but the board entrusting this kind of complete rebuild to OGS is beyond idiotic, beyond inept.
 

VP89

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If we had Poch and improved Martial Rashford then people would have said "Martial, Rashford were always a big talent".

Kane might be big talent just like Greenwood is, they were not proven and barely played at top level. Kane wasn't even scoring regularly for championship clubs.

Klopp inherited even shit squad but the way he has worked with them made players like Henderson, Milner looks like class players. That's the manager's role.

Jose was at Manutd for 2.5 years, during that time he spent more money than every club bar City, failed to challenge for league title. That's a failure. It wasn't as if other clubs were miles ahead when he took over, every club had lot of work to be done. They did and improved, we did and regressed or had a very short peak.
It's different times in their career though. When Poch walked into Spurs, Kane at least had that experience under his belt at other clubs and had a very solid season under Sherwood to build on. He was older and more mature in his game.

Rashford was still a kid when Jose walked in. I don't think you can compare the two like that. And for what it's worth I wonder if Poch would even use Martial as much once he would start spending. Martial shows a general laziness and lack of aggressiveness that you just know Poch wouldn't tolerate. He's not a worker like Firminho or Augero or even Kane. He's very talented but often flat footed in his game, it wouldn't suit a manager like Poch or Klopp. Heck it didn't really suit Jose as he had his issues with him (and others).

Klopp made Milner and Henderson work. Their individual play is nothing special. Their energy and hustling is where they stand out, and they operate in a system they know very well. Yeah Jose failed to operate in a similar manner, but again I don't think Jose is a failure just because Klopp went on a phenomenal achievement.

I don't want to make this thread solely about Jose, my point is just that we can't be binary in our view of a manager where its like "if you spent money you challenge if you don't you have a get out of jail free card". Our club has such rubbish infrastructure and no one really knows what drives targets. It was one reason Klopp was reportedly put off, because we were too "commercial" as a club.

The point with Ole however is whether he spends money or not, I cannot identify with this team. Under previous managers we can identify the style. It was either compact and organised or possession based where no one moved from their allocated position. Both previous managers were unpopular with what this club is associated with but at least they 1) had a coaching philosophy they implemented and 2) had previous pedigree to earn some faith in results

Ole doesn't have either, I don't think he coaches us because we are erratic and reactive on the pitch, reminiscent of Moyes when he'd rely on individual moments of brilliance to get back into games. And he also doesn't have previous pedigree to suggest he will create something out of us.
 

romufc

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There's a whole-world of difference between throwing a rookie into a midfield dog-fight than at fullback/winger/striker.
Ofcourse, so Perreira is not a rookie at CM? I guess in your opinion he is a seasoned professional in that position?

I guess that applies with CB too? De Ligt was starting at 18, De Jong was starting at 18/19 at Ajax.

Fabregas was starting at 17 for Arsenal.

This theory of throwing in a rookie at a young age is a myth because when a talented player comes through that goes out the window.
 

Jinn

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You're ridiculously deluded or just plain naive. Under this structure, the club basically needs to draw to a Royal Flush to be seriously competing for the league in the next 5 years and that's with an actual QUALIFIED top 10 manager in the world, not some Norwegian PE teacher who somehow finagled his way into this position because he was in a Ferguson team and therefore MUST have absorbed all this wisdom (unfortunately coaching excellence is a intuitive ability...reading people, motivating people, devising strategies, convincing people that your plan will work etc.) The OGS acolytes and the defenses they espouse are painful.

This is what is happening. The club is cutting costs as UCL money stops flowing and UCL dependent sponsor money is reduced. OGS is the perfect cover vessel to get out there and parrot this young British talent/United DNA-tradition narrative that all these sentimentalists eat up. Lukaku and Sanchez were offloaded to finance the Maguire signing. Of course, Woodward's an inept football CEO but this 'phased' plan which he's incessantly briefing the press on is total BS. It's true, he can hardly manage to make obvious signings, but they aren't interested in signing more than three players per window and definitely not three 70+ mil signings. At this point, OGS is Baghdad Bob...working within the football equivalent of the T**mp organization.
I'm not deluded. I'm quite lucid actually. The way to be lucid, is to remove all emotion and look at the situation from an unbiased position, taking all factors into account past and present. Try it, it might help.
You speak of top 10 managers. We have had 2 very good managers. One of them is a selfish, egotistical, manipulative, money hungry narcissist that some on here would have given their mother to for a few wins. Differing styles and quick fixes has caused us to be in a situation like this. Irresponsible spending and selling has also played a big hand. This is down to management, the apparently very good managers we did have.

I'm no Woody fan, but Lukaku wanted to leave...he's a big baby as far as i am concerned. This has been reported recently by someone who actually knows him better than us.
If there is a case study ever done on mercenaries in football, it should be on Sanchez.
I'm actually glad that both have left. We need to replace them of course, this is where the next phase comes in.
Look, if it doesn't happen, then we only have one person to blame and that's Woody and his bosses.
 

Rado_N

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It isn't because it provides context.

Jose was sacked despite a relatively impressive win rate. Solskjaer has lost more games in a year than Mourinho lost in 2 and half years.

We all agreed Jose needed to be sacked, but we have a divided fanbase on Solksjaer despite his record imitating the record of a relegation standard manager. It just highlights how many people are being lead by the hearts when it comes to this decision.
I know what you’re saying, but that doesn’t make it relevant to whether he should keep his job, it just highlights a double standard amongst some fans.

The only thing Ole should be judged on is whether he’s doing a good enough job, and he isn’t.
 

roonster09

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It's different times in their career though. When Poch walked into Spurs, Kane at least had that experience under his belt at other clubs and had a very solid season under Sherwood to build on. He was older and more mature in his game.

Rashford was still a kid when Jose walked in. I don't think you can compare the two like that. And for what it's worth I wonder if Poch would even use Martial as much once he would start spending. Martial shows a general laziness and lack of aggressiveness that you just know Poch wouldn't tolerate. He's not a worker like Firminho or Augero or even Kane. He's very talented but often flat footed in his game, it wouldn't suit a manager like Poch or Klopp. Heck it didn't really suit Jose as he had his issues with him (and others).

Klopp made Milner and Henderson work. Their individual play is nothing special. Their energy and hustling is where they stand out, and they operate in a system they know very well. Yeah Jose failed to operate in a similar manner, but again I don't think Jose is a failure just because Klopp went on a phenomenal achievement.

I don't want to make this thread solely about Jose, my point is just that we can't be binary in our view of a manager where its like "if you spent money you challenge if you don't you have a get out of jail free card". Our club has such rubbish infrastructure and no one really knows what drives targets. It was one reason Klopp was reportedly put off, because we were too "commercial" as a club.

The point with Ole however is whether he spends money or not, I cannot identify with this team. Under previous managers we can identify the style. It was either compact and organised or possession based where no one moved from their allocated position. Both previous managers were unpopular with what this club is associated with but at least they 1) had a coaching philosophy they implemented and 2) had previous pedigree to earn some faith in results

Ole doesn't have either, I don't think he coaches us because we are erratic and reactive on the pitch, reminiscent of Moyes when he'd rely on individual moments of brilliance to get back into games. And he also doesn't have previous pedigree to suggest he will create something out of us.
There wasn't any experience for Kane to work with, he played less mins than Rashford, Martial at top level when Poch took over. Both were miles more impressive than Kane when Poch took over, after that it was completely different journeys for all 3 players.

I don't know what should be the expectation if hiring manger like Jose and spending money more than anyone bar City shouldn't result in title challenge.

Re bold part, same thing was said back then too, that players look like bunch of individuals who never played together. It's nothing new, at least now I can see the style of play Ole is trying to implement, however poorly that is and how badly he is failing to do so. Under Jose it was just make up as you go along .
 

roonster09

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It isn't because it provides context.

Jose was sacked despite a relatively impressive win rate. Solskjaer has lost more games in a year than Mourinho lost in 2 and half years.

We all agreed Jose needed to be sacked, but we have a divided fanbase on Solksjaer despite his record imitating the record of a relegation standard manager. It just highlights how many people are being lead by the hearts when it comes to this decision.
I don't see a divided fan base, most want him gone and in the Ole keep or sack thread, people are not even arsed to change the vote. Very few people think Ole should be given time.
 

anant

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Well, not really.

80m EUR in 16/17
174m EUR in 17/18
182m EUR in 18/19

Total 436m EUR prior to the season Klopp finished 2nd.

Jose

185m EUR in 16/17
198m EUR in 16/17

Total 383m EUR.

So Klopp spending less to achieve 2nd is a big myth.

EDIT:
just seen your edit - why do you only take the year prior? That's skewing the metrics.
Just a question here- Lets say Mou had this additional 53m and he can sign any player(s) that was/were available for this amount to bolster the squad. Do you honestly think Mou could have gotten us 97 points in league and won us the CL?

Also, Klopp spent 129m less than Mou to get Pool to CL finals as well!
 

VP89

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There wasn't any experience for Kane to work with, he played less mins than Rashford, Martial at top level when Poch took over. Both were miles more impressive than Kane when Poch took over, after that it was completely different journeys for all 3 players.

I don't know what should be the expectation if hiring manger like Jose and spending money more than anyone bar City shouldn't result in title challenge.

Re bold part, same thing was said back then too, that players look like bunch of individuals who never played together. It's nothing new, at least now I can see the style of play Ole is trying to implement, however poorly that is and how badly he is failing to do so. Under Jose it was just make up as you go along .
Kane was and is a better player than Rashford. He knew his position and he was far more polished as a player. Rashford was and still is way more raw as a player. Managers can't change much of that outside of play them in their best position. Funnily enough Jose got stick for putting him wide where he enjoyed playing by the caf and the media who demanded seeing him up top.

And Jose was only 2nd to City so what's the problem? That City side on paper was easily 20 points better than us, given they spunked more money and had a better starting point.

As for the bunch of individuals comment, sure it was said in the final 3rd of the pitch. But we were organised and compact and identified as such. Our style was to soak up pressure and get them through a direct run of play. With Ole we lost our compactness, we lost our organisation and we look like individuals everywhere. Even in the games if youve been to old Trafford recently its easy to see. The players look more confused and look at Ole for clarification a lot more. The last game versus Villa for example, Mata would turn to Ole and be moved about right or elsewhere and it was just baffling for the rest of the players.
 

roonster09

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Kane was and is a better player than Rashford. He knew his position and he was far more polished as a player. Rashford was and still is way more raw as a player. Managers can't change much of that outside of play them in their best position. Funnily enough Jose got stick for putting him wide where he enjoyed playing by the caf and the media who demanded seeing him up top.

And Jose was only 2nd to City so what's the problem? That City side on paper was easily 20 points better than us, given they spunked more money and had a better starting point.

As for the bunch of individuals comment, sure it was said in the final 3rd of the pitch. But we were organised and compact and identified as such. Our style was to soak up pressure and get them through a direct run of play. With Ole we lost our compactness, we lost our organisation and we look like individuals everywhere. Even in the games if youve been to old Trafford recently its easy to see. The players look more confused and look at Ole for clarification a lot more. The last game versus Villa for example, Mata would turn to Ole and be moved about right or elsewhere and it was just baffling for the rest of the players.
Kane wasn't, that's why he was warming the bench at Championship clubs, Norwich and even at Spurs. Only after Poch took over he became better player.

Managers can't do much than playing players in their best position? Then what exactly is the manager's role in player development? Do they develop naturally without much work from coaches/managers? If that's the case, how do you explain players improving so much under managers like Klopp, Pep?

Jose came 2nd and then was 6th, Klopp came 2nd and now winning PL. That's the difference. He spent less than Jose, so even spending less money you have a manager who showed how to mount a league title, but we had manager who spent more than anyone bar City but didn't come close to challenging even once in 2.5 years. If that side looked 20 points worse than City then it shows how shit job Jose did when it comes to transfers as Klopp showed with less money how they are looking at least equal if not better than City.

Wasn't Jose supposed to be World class manager and all time great?

We were so organized that De Gea was always in superman mode and saved so many goals, which was highlighted by xG model. We were better defensively than now (for first 2 seasons) but defense looked so much better because of De Gea's form/ability.

I don't know how anyone can say manager was successful when they spend 2nd most in transfers and fails to challenge for league title in 2.5 years. Was he better than other managers we hired? Yes. Was he successful? No.
 

Enigma_87

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Well at least finally you got the point of my argument. Well whether Klopp spent more to achieve 2nd position or less depends on whether you consider gross spend or net spend.



Really you don't know why I took 1 year prior? Maybe because I was replying to this specific post.
I never claimed he was a successful one, but he wasn’t a failure like the poster claimed due to spending 300m. Truth is somewhere in the middle.

Result wise he was our best appointment. Considering how crap we were under Moyes, LvG and Ole, you might consider him close to successful one rather than failure.
 

roonster09

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I never claimed he was a successful one, but he wasn’t a failure like the poster claimed due to spending 300m. Truth is somewhere in the middle.

Result wise he was our best appointment. Considering how crap we were under Moyes, LvG and Ole, you might consider him close to successful one rather than failure.
He shouldn't be compared against other ManUtd appointments, if that's the case Veron might end up as successful transfer at ManUtd, when it was obvious he was a flop.

Jose failed to achieve what he was hired for, winning/challenging for title. He failed in both league and CL, just like Van Gaal, Moyes before him. That's a failure and yes, that's 4 failed appointments at ManUtd now, just have to hope we will get next one right.
 

Enigma_87

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He shouldn't be compared against other ManUtd appointments, if that's the case Veron might end up as successful transfer at ManUtd, when it was obvious he was a flop.

Jose failed to achieve what he was hired for, winning/challenging for title. He failed in both league and CL, just like Van Gaal, Moyes before him. That's a failure and yes, that's 4 failed appointments at ManUtd now, just have to hope we will get next one right.
Interesting point, given the context.

Say we hire Poch now, if he wins an odd EL and an FA cup in the next 3 years, delivering top 4 finish in each of them, would you consider him a failure or success?
 

roonster09

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Interesting point, given the context.

Say we hire Poch now, if he wins an odd EL and an FA cup in the next 3 years, delivering top 4 finish in each of them, would you consider him a failure or success?
Depends on how much we are investing, how far he is from the league title and how strong/poor our squad is when he leaves.