If you don’t understand why Ole is a gamble worth taking… you’re doing football support wrong

Enigma_87

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Depends on how much we are investing, how far he is from the league title and how strong/poor our squad is when he leaves.
That notion is overrated to me. Every manager wants to do the best he can and to put his ideas through. In that case you have different ideologies and naturally if you get Mourinho you have to spend big on proven players, senior players. You can't fault him for the mess left behind - that is the job of the next manager, which is why he will get paid a lot and get another hundreds of millions at its disposal.

Same goes for LvG, Ole, Moyes and the likes. All of them will try to do the best they can during their reign and not worry about what they leave behind. If there is a long term plan believe me they want to be part of that plan, not think of the club and the next manager in line, makes no sense. Especially if you bring in Allegri for example after Ole.

To me, a manager should be estimated on what he has done, during his reign and what the targets were when he stepped in.
 

roonster09

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That notion is overrated to me. Every manager wants to do the best he can and to put his ideas through. In that case you have different ideologies and naturally if you get Mourinho you have to spend big on proven players, senior players. You can't fault him for the mess left behind - that is the job of the next manager, which is why he will get paid a lot and get another hundreds of millions at its disposal.

Same goes for LvG, Ole, Moyes and the likes. All of them will try to do the best they can during their reign and not worry about what they leave behind. If there is a long term plan believe me they want to be part of that plan, not think of the club and the next manager in line, makes no sense. Especially if you bring in Allegri for example after Ole.

To me, a manager should be estimated on what he has done, during his reign and what the targets were when he stepped in.
Even in that he is a failure considering he was poor with the squad he built and he failed to challenge for the league title. How can you not blame him for the mess behind, is Jose responsible for anything? Poor squad is not his problem, big transfer is not his problem, huge wages is not his problem, squad not challenging for the title is not his problem but somehow he was the messiah who should have been backed when he wasn't responsible for anything.

If you get Jose, you also expect to win titles when you spend so much money. He didn't at ManUtd, so we don't have squad, 0 league challenges. He is a failure at ManUtd.

I disagree with the whole post, notion is not overrated, Klopp can leave today, still they will have great squad, same with Pep.
 

VP89

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Kane wasn't, that's why he was warming the bench at Championship clubs, Norwich and even at Spurs. Only after Poch took over he became better player.
Kane was a better player than Rashford naturally. Poch deserves a lot of credit but Kane is a phenomenal talent with an all round game which was ready to burst and Rashford didn't have that when Jose came. feck he doesn't even have it now.

If the point you're turning this into is another jibe against Jose by saying "look what Poch did with Kane" then it's just bizzare. You can bring Pep here and Rashford won't be Kanes level. Rashford isn't even Sterling's level pre City.

Managers can't do much than playing players in their best position? Then what exactly is the manager's role in player development? Do they develop naturally without much work from coaches/managers? If that's the case, how do you explain players improving so much under managers like Klopp, Pep?
When you have a 20 year old academy player who is extremely raw in his playing style there's little you can do outside of play him in games which best suits his skillset, get him experience and yes coach the player along the way. But he was 20. It would take ages for him to develop properly as a player and who knows if he ever would develop?

Klopped developed a more mature Salah and Mane, who had more experience under their belt and were more polished players than Rashford is. I see Rashford today and I can't see much difference in his general play to Jose. What does that tell you? That Jose and Ole have both done a shit job with Rashford? Or that Rashford is still very young and needs to develop before we see what he's really about? He's no Mbappe, we can't expect him to own teams on the regular at 22.


Jose came 2nd and then was 6th, Klopp came 2nd and now winning PL. That's the difference. He spent less than Jose, so even spending less money you have a manager who showed how to mount a league title, but we had manager who spent more than anyone bar City but didn't come close to challenging even once in 2.5 years. If that side looked 20 points worse than City then it shows how shit job Jose did when it comes to transfers as Klopp showed with less money how they are looking at least equal if not better than City.

Wasn't Jose supposed to be World class manager and all time great?
When Jose finished 2nd, hilariously the daft feck up that is Ed Woodward decided to side with the players like Pogba or martial or whoever else, and decided Jose isn't worth further investment. His funds were stopped and Klopp went on to be backed massively to charge for a title push.

feck knows where Jose would have taken us if he got his wishes on paper. But if he got us 81 points in season 2 and wanted funds to bridge that gap, I'd bet he'd have done a better job than finish 6th that season. Heck don't look at my words, just look at the fact that he does eventually mount a title challenge wherever he goes. Yeah he implodes too but this implosion was a massive part down to Ed and not actually giving him any leeway on funds, even when it's buying a centre back he ended up purchasing anyway under Ole.


I don't know how anyone can say manager was successful when they spend 2nd most in transfers and fails to challenge for league title in 2.5 years. Was he better than other managers we hired? Yes. Was he successful? No.
The team that finished 1st spent 100s of millions more than him. That's why.

Did Klopp get closer? Sure. He overperformed. That doesn't mean Jose was a failure. In my opinion Klopp took over a better Liverpool side than Mourinho inheriting his United side. Klopp came a season after Brendan had made a title challenge of his own, whereas Jose had to walk into no right back, no right wing, no proper centre backs, no midfield and no actual striker. I can't believe this is even a debate.

It's clear you hate mourinho to the bone, no context or reason will change you. Even if Jose is a success at Spurs and we get worse, you probably won't change your view that maybe Jose had a case here. So what's the point, really.
 

Enigma_87

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Even in that he is a failure considering he was poor with the squad he built and he failed to challenge for the league title. How can you not blame him for the mess behind, is Jose responsible for anything? Poor squad is not his problem, big transfer is not his problem, huge wages is not his problem, squad not challenging for the title is not his problem but somehow he was the messiah who should have been backed when he wasn't responsible for anything.

If you get Jose, you also expect to win titles when you spend so much money. He didn't at ManUtd, so we don't have squad, 0 league challenges. He is a failure at ManUtd.

I disagree with the whole post, notion is not overrated, Klopp can leave today, still they will have great squad, same with Pep.
The bolded is what he is responsible for. Not being able to go past Sevilla and going 6th with the side that finished 2nd. This is what you can blame him for and also the attitude at the end of his reign.

If Klopp leaves tomorrow and they appoint an average manager they won't be half as good as they are now.
 

roonster09

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Kane was a better player than Rashford naturally. Poch deserves a lot of credit but Kane is a phenomenal talent with an all round game which was ready to burst and Rashford didn't have that when Jose came. feck he doesn't even have it now.

If the point you're turning this into is another jibe against Jose by saying "look what Poch did with Kane" then it's just bizzare. You can bring Pep here and Rashford won't be Kanes level. Rashford isn't even Sterling's level pre City.



When you have a 20 year old academy player who is extremely raw in his playing style there's little you can do outside of play him in games which best suits his skillset, get him experience and yes coach the player along the way. But he was 20. It would take ages for him to develop properly as a player and who knows if he ever would develop?

Klopped developed a more mature Salah and Mane, who had more experience under their belt and were more polished players than Rashford is. I see Rashford today and I can't see much difference in his general play to Jose. What does that tell you? That Jose and Ole have both done a shit job with Rashford? Or that Rashford is still very young and needs to develop before we see what he's really about? He's no Mbappe, we can't expect him to own teams on the regular at 22.




When Jose finished 2nd, hilariously the daft feck up that is Ed Woodward decided to side with the players like Pogba or martial or whoever else, and decided Jose isn't worth further investment. His funds were stopped and Klopp went on to be backed massively to charge for a title push.

feck knows where Jose would have taken us if he got his wishes on paper. But if he got us 81 points in season 2 and wanted funds to bridge that gap, I'd bet he'd have done a better job than finish 6th that season. Heck don't look at my words, just look at the fact that he does eventually mount a title challenge wherever he goes. Yeah he implodes too but this implosion was a massive part down to Ed and not actually giving him any leeway on funds, even when it's buying a centre back he ended up purchasing anyway under Ole.




The team that finished 1st spent 100s of millions more than him. That's why.

Did Klopp get closer? Sure. He overperformed. That doesn't mean Jose was a failure. In my opinion Klopp took over a better Liverpool side than Mourinho inheriting his United side. Klopp came a season after Brendan had made a title challenge of his own, whereas Jose had to walk into no right back, no right wing, no proper centre backs, no midfield and no actual striker. I can't believe this is even a debate.

It's clear you hate mourinho to the bone, no context or reason will change you. Even if Jose is a success at Spurs and we get worse, you probably won't change your view that maybe Jose had a case here. So what's the point, really.
ok, not arsed to go in detail when you are Mr. Hindsight with Kane was better player than Rashford all the time just waiting to burst on to the scene.

Edit: Btw after finishing 2nd, Jose spend 70 million and took the team to 6th. After finishing 2nd, Klopp spent 1.9 million and is winning PL.
 

VP89

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ok, not arsed to go in detail when you are Mr. Hindsight with Kane was better player than Rashford all the time just waiting to burst on to the scene.
Its just an opinion. You've seen my posts. I've even gone out and called Martial a French Danny Welbeck before.

Today I don't think he's that average and its a harsh tagline but he's 24 and I don't think he's going to get much better than he is now. It's just opinions is all, let's see how these players pan out in comparison to Kane or other world talents.
 

roonster09

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Its just an opinion. You've seen my posts. I've even gone out and called Martial a French Danny Welbeck before.

Today I don't think he's that average and its a harsh tagline but he's 24 and I don't think he's going to get much better than he is now. It's just opinions is all, let's see how these players pan out in comparison to Kane or other world talents.
Is that supposed to support your point or something?

Btw after finishing 2nd, Jose spend 70 million and took the team to 6th. After finishing 2nd, Klopp spent 1.9 million and is winning PL.
 

Cassidy

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Is that supposed to support your point or something?

Btw after finishing 2nd, Jose spend 70 million and took the team to 6th. After finishing 2nd, Klopp spent 1.9 million and is winning PL.
Come on, Klopp already had a side capable of winning the title last season, Jose didn't when he came second. Of course taking thee side down to 6th was poor though hence his sacking
 

roonster09

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The bolded is what he is responsible for. Not being able to go past Sevilla and going 6th with the side that finished 2nd. This is what you can blame him for and also the attitude at the end of his reign.

If Klopp leaves tomorrow and they appoint an average manager they won't be half as good as they are now.
Drop won't be huge as they are improved players now and are at good age. Not like Jose's transfers where they were so close to past it.

Also not even comparable to Jose as none of the players were at their best under him.
 

roonster09

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Come on, Klopp already had a side capable of winning the title last season, Jose didn't when he came second. Of course taking thee side down to 6th was poor though hence his sacking
So both spent almost same money but one finished 2nd which was capable of winning more and other spent in a way that it wasn't sustainable.
 

VP89

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Is that supposed to support your point or something?

Btw after finishing 2nd, Jose spend 70 million and took the team to 6th. After finishing 2nd, Klopp spent 1.9 million and is winning PL.
He won the champions league and City are burning out, playing nothing close like the side that won 100 points.

And no it's not supposed to prove my point. If anything Martial has had patches of amazing play to disprove my view. But you don't always need hindsight to know when a player is overhyped, and the fact remains our Rashford and Martial are massively overhyped.
 

Cassidy

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So both spent almost same money but one finished 2nd which was capable of winning more and other spent in a way that it wasn't sustainable.
I'm not backing Jose spending just pointing out that comparison doesn't make sense. Liverpool should have won the title last season if not for the fact they blew a 7/8 point lead. Thats different from finishing 2nd around 20 points off the pace

The squad needed serious investment of the type Liverpool did the year before bringing in Fabinho (a player we were linked with for ages) Van Dijk (a player we probably could have signed) and Allison
 

roonster09

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He won the champions league and City are burning out, playing nothing close like the side that won 100 points.

And no it's not supposed to prove my point. If anything Martial has had patches of amazing play to disprove my view. But you don't always need hindsight to know when a player is overhyped, and the fact remains our Rashford and Martial are massively overhyped.
it's not as if Liverpool are on top of the league because other teams are poor (I mean city dropping points), they are on top as they dropped points in only 1 game. No matter which City is compared, they would have been top of the league.

Rashford and Martial played under managers who are shit at developing players, Kane had superb opportunity to work with Poch who is superb at developing players. I don't know how Martial and rashford being overhyped proves anything or they weren't better than Kane who was bench player at Norwich and Spurs behind Soldado and Ade when Poch took over, so good that he wasn't even regular for Championship clubs.

Now that he is one of the best in the world, he was always the better talent who was waiting to burst on the scene, coincidentally so many players burst on to the scene with huge improvements when Poch took over.
 

roonster09

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I'm not backing Jose spending just pointing out that comparison doesn't make sense. Liverpool should have won the title last season if not for the fact they blew a 7/8 point lead. Thats different from finishing 2nd around 20 points off the pace

The squad needed serious investment of the type Liverpool did the year before bringing in Fabinho (a player we were linked with for ages) Van Dijk (a player we probably could have signed) and Allison
Squad had serious investment and it achieved nothing as we hired a manger who wasn't good enough (yeah he was better than others we hired) to challenge for the league after spending more than anyone bar City.

Comparison makes sense if you follow the previous posts rather than 1 post in isolation, saying Klopp was always backed so that he is competing for the league, Jose wasn't is just wrong. Jose was also backed and he didn't come close to winning the title. Klopp was backed and he won major titles and competing for PL title.
 

Cassidy

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Squad had serious investment and it achieved nothing as we hired a manger who wasn't good enough (yeah he was better than others we hired) to challenge for the league after spending more than anyone bar City.

Comparison makes sense if you follow the previous posts rather than 1 post in isolation, saying Klopp was always backed so that he is competing for the league, Jose wasn't is just wrong. Jose was also backed and he didn't come close to winning the title. Klopp was backed and he won major titles and competing for PL title.
Agree with that
 

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Do you know how much City spent during that time and the gulf in quality we had before Mourinho took over? Did you honestly expect to beat them to the title after spending that amount? We spent less than City, who also had a top manager and much stronger team to begin with.

If Jose was poor what does that make Ole and Moyes?

For the record Jose did underperform
, because you would expect him to win trophies, and although he did, that CL exit was terrible. However the expectations were much higher at the time, compared to now from what I see.

We spent 150m pounds this Summer and now should be content with being midtable because our manager is a nobody and expectations should be low?
I'm glad you answered your own question in the very next sentence.

Again Jose's failures having nothing to do with Ole.
 

Enigma_87

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Drop won't be huge as they are improved players now and are at good age. Not like Jose's transfers where they were so close to past it.

Also not even comparable to Jose as none of the players were at their best under him.
Disagree on the first para. That side Klopp has is build around him and to serve his targets and playing style. Remove him and put someone like Conte and it will be hard to follow suit.

If Pool lose Klopp I'd imagine their drop in the table and also playing wise will be huge.

Agree on the second part on Jose. Jose was not at his best at United either. I've said it all along he should've been hired before LvG just after Moyes. During the time he was at United he lost a bit of his spark.
 

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Statsitical significance and unexplained variables :lol:

Read his win % and take a walk. I'd like to know how his 81 point season is an "unexplained variable".
Oh my. 81 points. That would have been 3rd last season. Only within 16 points of Liverpool. What an achievement!

And they say Ole lowered standards.
 

anant

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That notion is overrated to me. Every manager wants to do the best he can and to put his ideas through. In that case you have different ideologies and naturally if you get Mourinho you have to spend big on proven players, senior players. You can't fault him for the mess left behind - that is the job of the next manager, which is why he will get paid a lot and get another hundreds of millions at its disposal.

Same goes for LvG, Ole, Moyes and the likes. All of them will try to do the best they can during their reign and not worry about what they leave behind. If there is a long term plan believe me they want to be part of that plan, not think of the club and the next manager in line, makes no sense. Especially if you bring in Allegri for example after Ole.

To me, a manager should be estimated on what he has done, during his reign and what the targets were when he stepped in.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course he is. Let's say, he didn't have that bad of a 3rd season, then what? The side will still require a rebuild and he'd buy senior players for expensive prices once again. Surely, you can see that this is not sustainable, right?

No club in the world can continue spending 150m a year every year, and that too net. Literally no club will sanction that amount for transfers every year and that is one of the reasons why Mou isn't regarded at the same level as Pep, SAF or other greats
 

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3 trophies were just our illusions, we didnt actually won it.

United is actually top of the table, 11th is just a illusion.
Well at least you stopped with the "Are you saying Ole is better?" nonsense.

Charity Shield, Europa League, and League Cup. No PL challenge. No late stages of CL. Success. Amirite?
 

anant

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Disagree on the first para. That side Klopp has is build around him and to serve his targets and playing style. Remove him and put someone like Conte and it will be hard to follow suit.

If Pool lose Klopp I'd imagine their drop in the table and also playing wise will be huge.

Agree on the second part on Jose. Jose was not at his best at United either. I've said it all along he should've been hired before LvG just after Moyes. During the time he was at United he lost a bit of his spark.
Sure, they might not work. But these players are having a good resale value which will help the new manager get his targets. These targets will most likely be players who have 5-6 years at the top to go and hence, no fan/club will have an issue with that.
 

roonster09

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Disagree on the first para. That side Klopp has is build around him and to serve his targets and playing style. Remove him and put someone like Conte and it will be hard to follow suit.

If Pool lose Klopp I'd imagine their drop in the table and also playing wise will be huge.

Agree on the second part on Jose. Jose was not at his best at United either. I've said it all along he should've been hired before LvG just after Moyes. During the time he was at United he lost a bit of his spark.
So Jose wasn't at his best at United, he wasn't successful. Glad we could agree on that.
 

Enigma_87

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course he is. Let's say, he didn't have that bad of a 3rd season, then what? The side will still require a rebuild and he'd buy senior players for expensive prices once again. Surely, you can see that this is not sustainable, right?

No club in the world can continue spending 150m a year every year, and that too net. Literally no club will sanction that amount for transfers every year and that is one of the reasons why Mou isn't regarded at the same level as Pep, SAF or other greats
You are mixing things up a bit.

First of all proper clubs have structure like DoF, scouting network, coaching stuff(including manager), then they have wage budgets, salary caps and so on.

The manager is not responsible of the wage structure, budget, salary caps and so on - this is financial stuff that should not interfere with his responsibilities. His job is to identify targets and give them to the board and DoF. After that they need to provide him those targets and check the economics. If the economics aren't right then we move to target #2, #3, etc.

You get Mourinho who is renown for buying senior players that are either at their peak or slightly past it that provide experience and also have the needed tactical ability. You can't make him not spend money, work on a budget or buy 21 years old, because this is not a sustainable model. If you don't want to do that you don't hire Jose at the first place.

I've said it multiple times, Jose is not someone you don't know what to expect. He has been around for decades now and has a particular pattern and model at every club he was in. You know what you get.
 

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Well at least you stopped with the "Are you saying Ole is better?" nonsense.

Charity Shield, Europa League, and League Cup. No PL challenge. No late stages of CL. Success. Amirite?
If you think that's not any bit acceptable, I'd love to hear your thoughts on us finishing 10th this season. Let me guess, you're gonna dress it up as success anyway.
 

Enigma_87

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So Jose wasn't at his best at United, he wasn't successful. Glad we could agree on that.
Naturally, yes. He didn't win the title, didn't win the CL, this is the criteria's I'd measure him if it was to qualify him as a success. Nothing more, nothing less, as Jose comes with a baggage - something well discussed in the last page and in advance.

However I can't say he's a failure either. He won 2 cups, gave us 2nd place and CL football. Considering how dreadful were the other managers before and after him, I'd say the truth is in the middle.
 

Sky1981

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Do you know how much City spent during that time and the gulf in quality we had before Mourinho took over? Did you honestly expect to beat them to the title after spending that amount? We spent less than City, who also had a top manager and much stronger team to begin with.

If Jose was poor what does that make Ole and Moyes?

For the record Jose did underperform, because you would expect him to win trophies, and although he did, that CL exit was terrible. However the expectations were much higher at the time, compared to now from what I see.

We spent 150m pounds this Summer and now should be content with being midtable because our manager is a nobody and expectations should be low?
Jose = bad, Ole = good

Repeat, strawman, time, patience, inherited shit squad, etc.
 

VP89

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Oh my. 81 points. That would have been 3rd last season. Only within 16 points of Liverpool. What an achievement!

And they say Ole lowered standards.
It's the best tally since SAF and almost 20 points improved from LVG, so I'd say so yes.
 

Sarni

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Oh my. 81 points. That would have been 3rd last season. Only within 16 points of Liverpool. What an achievement!

And they say Ole lowered standards.
We would have to get 63 points in 24 games to reach 81 points this season - that's a 100 points per season pace. We are currently on track for 49 points. If Ole can get us to 81 points this year then he should most definitely stay. He can't though, there's very little chance that he can get us to even 70.
 

Sky1981

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We would have to get 63 points in 24 games to reach 81 points this season - that's a 100 points per season pace. We are currently on track for 49 points. If Ole can get us to 81 points this year then he should most definitely stay. He can't though, there's very little chance that he can get us to even 70.
Meh, if you're not 1st you're nothing. it doesn't matter if you're 2nd or 10th or 12th or 15th
 

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It's the best tally since SAF and almost 20 points improved from LVG, so I'd say so yes.
Ignoring Jose predicted to challenge for the title before that season started.
Ignoring Sevilla.

I'll ask again. What do the failings on Mourinho have to do with the other managers? Why can't they all be terrible? Not sure why some of you are so intent on lionizing failure.
 

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We would have to get 63 points in 24 games to reach 81 points this season - that's a 100 points per season pace. We are currently on track for 49 points. If Ole can get us to 81 points this year then he should most definitely stay. He can't though, there's very little chance that he can get us to even 70.
We'll be lucky to finish this season with 60.

This will be the season with our worst points tally post SAF. Maybe even in PL history under the new format overall.

We got 64 points in Moyes season.
 

VP89

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Ignoring Jose predicted to challenge for the title before that season started.
Ignoring Sevilla.

I'll ask again. What do the failings on Mourinho have to do with the other managers? Why can't they all be terrible? Not sure why some of you are so intent on lionizing failure.
It's relevant in the context of Ole because he's gotten away with worse shit than LVG or Mourinho.

And promises mean feck all. Klopp promised the title in 3 seasons. Hes getting it in his 5th, so what?
 

Enigma_87

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Ignoring Jose predicted to challenge for the title before that season started.
Ignoring Sevilla.

I'll ask again. What do the failings on Mourinho have to do with the other managers? Why can't they all be terrible? Not sure why some of you are so intent on lionizing failure.
Because there is extend of failure and extend of success. It's not only black and white or yes and no.
 

MackRobinson

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We would have to get 63 points in 24 games to reach 81 points this season - that's a 100 points per season pace. We are currently on track for 49 points. If Ole can get us to 81 points this year then he should most definitely stay. He can't though, there's very little chance that he can get us to even 70.
So they both weren't/won't be close to challenging? Never argued otherwise.

How many points was Jose on pace to get before he was sacked? Asking for a friend.
 

roonster09

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It's relevant in the context of Ole because he's gotten away with worse shit than LVG or Mourinho.

And promises mean feck all. Klopp promised the title in 3 seasons. Hes getting it in his 5th, so what?
And Klopp won title in 3 seasons, at the end of his 3rd full season.
 

Jezpeza

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Results are poor i admit. On results alone Ole has been poor.

but then we had managers who played ‘results getting’ football in Mourinho and LVG but they were no where near either.

the three new signings have been good and hes begun to flush the turd of previous managers recruitment.

we generally have to play to bypass the midfield and then when they need to break someone down we cant because we haven't got the creators in there. We’re Also short of a wide right player.

Sign Two attacking midfielders and a wide right player and see what happens. If we are still poor then change manager but we are limited at the moment by first team personnel
 

MackRobinson

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It's relevant in the context of Ole because he's gotten away with worse shit than LVG or Mourinho.

And promises mean feck all. Klopp promised the title in 3 seasons. Hes getting it in his 5th, so what?
This is a bold-faced lie if I ever saw one.

- 2.5 years vs less than a year
- the Sevilla comments
- the Pogba situation
- publically criticizing the board
- shit football
- underperforming superstars on brought in my him

Should I go on?
 

MackRobinson

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Because there is extend of failure and extend of success. It's not only black and white or yes and no.
Of course, but you can't miss your own targets and claim success in hindsight. That's disingenuous at best or deluded at worst.
 

MackRobinson

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If you think that's not any bit acceptable, I'd love to hear your thoughts on us finishing 10th this season. Let me guess, you're gonna dress it up as success anyway.
Nope. It's poor.

Again I can objectively access the managers independently. I don't have to trash Jose to turn Ole's tenure into wine. As crazy as it seems to you, they can both be poor.