Something that has been very hard to understand.
If you don’t understand why Ole is a gamble worth taking… you’re doing football support wrong
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Hahaha, No, I don't think you can.
But anyway, if you think you're objective then good for you. I don't think you're objective at all. Let's just agree to disagree
It is when your agenda (intentional or not) is to tear down another manager just to validate your support of a former one. When Jose was fired I remember a poster predicting his tenure would be revised to look like a success (during Ole's winning run). I didn't know it would happen this quickly.
Well, thanks for putting me on ignore for saying they can both be poor. How thoughtful and welcoming of you. Always good to have such an open and straightforward dialogue where we mute an opposing viewpoint. Cheers.
I was clearly talking about him as a player, but then again you are comparing managerial careers of individuals who have managed very different caliber of clubs. At this point, I don't really expect you to say anything nuanced.
In the real world context matters. Such as spending over £300m on squad, never coming close to challenging for a title, and obtaining embarrassing results in the CL. Yet I need to take a break from Football Manager?
I actually I'm not Ole in or out. I think if he was sacked tomorrow it would be understandable. Not everyone lives by the Cult of Mourinho code of conduct, where you slate Ole to mask Mourinho's failures as United manager. Mourinho's failings (of his own targets mind you) are well-documented facts. No amount of revisionist history will change that and it doesn't need to be rehashed so you ignore it only to spout the same context-lacking facts next week.
Objectivity.
this is ole's thread, you think they're both poor.
in the last 2 pages you piss on Jose's achievement all over. Show me quotes of you critizing ole? if you can.
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I remember someone quoted his old posts when he said "players are midtable can't expect anything more than that', once Jose is sacked, all of a sudden these players are superstars now.
At least should be consistent with how you rate the players.
He joined in 2015?
Sevilla comments are just comments, get over it. I'm more offended when Ole says the table doesn't matter than anything Jose said.
The board deserve a public stripping, because being a yes man doesn't cut it
The Pogba situation is subjective. I side with Jose and have no time for Pogba in that regard.
Our football is worse today than under Jose.
What superstars? He brought in Pogba and that's about it. Lukaku hit 26 goals in his first season so he wasn't exactly a flop completely. Sanchez was over the hill and joined on a free transfer.
Such hilarity if you think Ole isn't comfortably worse than Jose. He's not even close to Jose, or LVG for that matter. As a manager he's atrocious.
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58. So way better than Ole is now.
Leicester isn't close to challenging for title this year and neither is Everton. Are they having similar season?
Very slim chance for 64 this year indeed. Would require 48 from 24 games, that's on pace for 76 per season. There's little indication that this team with this manager is capable of that.
I don't know whether he said that about PL or any major trophy, I checked Ben Smith and other journalists who all tweeted about one title, only Independent reported as league title.
Anyways I don't know why that that half season is considered, if that's the case how many years he will be in charge when he wins PL in April 2020?
For sure it's not 5.
It should be.
Unless we've been horribly wrong about the likes of Hendo all along. By which I mean that he isn't just a good-ish midfielder with qualities that suit the system (under Klopp) - but a world beater.
They have several players whose quality is undeniable - but the team as such is based on the right horses for the course, not on pure and undeniable quality in every position.
Similar to his Dortmund team, really. A number of those players never looked nearly as good once removed from the system (Klopp's particular system, that is).
Not only him. Lovren looks good ffs. Obviously Firmino, Mane and Salah are quality, but their qualities are boosted by the system and the midfield behind them and full backs/wingbacks stretching the play. Are they world class? Borderline probably, but not absolutely. It's a sum of parts not individuals that have flashes throughout the games and pull out results due to their individual quality.
If Klopp leaves them I can see them quickly turning into shite, unless they hire a right manager closer to the same philosophy who can also work with those exact type of players, not necessarily same system.
Some of them are very young - and could turn out to be world class (or borderline) regardless of system. But, yeah, it's not a given at all for me.
Let's throw some names out: Piszczek, Schmelzer, Grosskreutz, Blaszczykowski, Kagawa (oh yeah).
And why not Subotic, Götze, Bender, Reus and Gündogan?
Actual, undeniable world beaters - any of 'em?
Well, borderline perhaps - some.
Hummels and Lewandowski? Yes. That's two players out of anyone associated with Klopp/Dortmund, though - the rest of 'em aren't players you'd happily sign, being sure they'd bring world beating qualities to the table regardless of the setup.
1) Why can't people accept that Jose failed miserably at United? Never challenging for the league in 3 years, only winning a EL with the easiest draw imaginable and looking clueless in CL. Leaving the club in an arguably worse state than he found it. Having a pretty dodgy record in the market.
2) Why can't people also accept that with the structure in place above him (Woodward & Co.) Mourinho was doomed to fail from day one. In that, the club should have backed him or sacked him. In that the club should have stood by the manager and not appeased players like Pogba, Martial, Shaw etc. In that the club (board, scouting network, negotiators) should have made his job easier by getting the targets he wanted and not fecking argue about 4-5 million pounds over Perisic. If that's the player he wanted, get him - otherwise sack him. By doing neither, Ed Woodward and board essentially torpedoed 2018-2019 season, which resulted in an interim appointment which brings us to present day.
3) The corollary to point #2 is that a lesser manager like Ole is also doomed to fail. He might be the greatest tactician (which he isn't), but with an unbalanced squad such as ours crying out for at least 4 positions (5 if Pogba leaves), he's getting no help from Ed and the board. We lost 2 midfielders last season (Fellaini, Herrera), a striker and a forward (Lukaku, Sanchez) without replacing. Without goin into the merits of whether or not they should have been sold/let go, what's indisputable is that they should have been replaced. Instead the club is focused on extending deadwood for fear of risk of execution, and promoting mediocrity like Mata, Young, Lingard, Pereira, Jones, Shaw etc. If a championship player from Swansea looks like our best player week in week out, what does that say about the quality of our squad and the quality of the work they do behind closed doors?
Our 'positive' energy should be focused on Ed Woodward, he's the chancer and cancer at our club.
2) Why can't people also accept that with the structure in place above him (Woodward & Co.) Mourinho was doomed to fail from day one. In that, the club should have backed him or sacked him. In that the club should have stood by the manager and not appeased players like Pogba, Martial, Shaw etc. In that the club (board, scouting network, negotiators) should have made his job easier by getting the targets he wanted and not fecking argue about 4-5 million pounds over Perisic. If that's the player he wanted, get him - otherwise sack him. By doing neither, Ed Woodward and board essentially torpedoed 2018-2019 season, which resulted in an interim appointment which brings us to present day.
3) The corollary to point #2 is that a lesser manager like Ole is also doomed to fail. He might be the greatest tactician (which he isn't), but with an unbalanced squad such as ours crying out for at least 4 positions (5 if Pogba leaves), he's getting no help from Ed and the board. We lost 2 midfielders last season (Fellaini, Herrera), a striker and a forward (Lukaku, Sanchez) without replacing. Without goin into the merits of whether or not they should have been sold/let go, what's indisputable is that they should have been replaced. Instead the club is focused on extending deadwood for fear of risk of execution, and promoting mediocrity like Mata, Young, Lingard, Pereira, Jones, Shaw etc. If a championship player from Swansea looks like our best player week in week out, what does that say about the quality of our squad and the quality of the work they do behind closed doors?
Our 'positive' energy should be focused on Ed Woodward, he's the chancer and cancer at our club.
This sub debate is really becoming a much of a muchness at this stage. I don't class joining in October as missing half the season anyway.
If I were Woodward, I'd have done as follows:
Called Jose and informed him that there's no feckin' chance whatsoever that bringing in Perisic will bring us significantly closer to beating City (or Liverpool) to the league, so - yeah - no. Forget it. Start targeting players who may play a part in a future league challenge - here and now is bloody unrealistic given the strength of the opposition.
And - yeah - well. If I were Woodward, I'd bring in a feckin' DOF before doing anything else - but there you go.
Not sure how many Caf members you are referring to, but Smalling is the best pure defender at the club. His issues that people point to his lack of distribution from the back, something that some people prioritize over defending. How is that working out for us lately?
I'm confused. I originally replyed to this post of yours:
I'm sorry I don't see the benefit of joining the mob and moaning endlessly about his managerial fitness, especially when his loudest detractors are those who constantly defended Jose even in his third season. Visiting the old Jose threads from last season and comparing the usernames and their content to those in the current Ole out threads it makes for a nice laugh. You can think Ole is unfit as manager and that's fine, but revisionist history of Jose at United doesn't even pass the laugh test, especially when you attempt to count the community shield as a trophy.
Of course you side with Jose. When haven't you?
So Sanchez was considered over the hill once he signed and not one of the best attackers in the PL? Founding member of the Ministry of Truth right here.
Mourinho loyalists sure do have a propensity to put words into others' mouths.
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Making this a Jose vs Ole thing is so odd.
Not buying that.
That Liverpool side that finished 2nd under Rodgers - their best players where Suarez, Sterling, Gerrard and Sturridge. 3 of those had left by the time Klopp arrived, and Sturridge was already broken. The only standout stars on the team Klopp took over was Coutinho and Firmino, although Firmino hadn't done anything in the few short months he'd been there under Rodgers at that point, and of course Coutinho left 18 months later.
Clearly neither coach took over great teams, but no way was Liverpool's side stronger.
As already pointed out, he said 4 years.
Plus he said 'a title', which means a trophy in Germany, and he was as good as his word having won the Champions League within 4 years.
Now I’m just being a smartass, but I would sign 2012 Gotze and Reus in a heartbeat, and we even picked up Kagawa ourselves. There was a lot of quality in that team, and you left out Perisic. Another funny thing is that he never managed to replicate those two seasons....
To me the premise of this thread is just wrong. It's implying that we did not take a chance on Ole. But we did. We took quite a gamble when we made him the manager after that great spell as a caretaker manager. That gamble did not pay off. I think at this point the right thing to do is treat this year as a longer caretaker manager spell. It will be time to assess whether we continue with Ole at the end of the year (barring any relegation fight of course). I'm not sure how much more we need to see to make the assessment that it's simply not working.
Why is Klopp even a part of this thread?
And that's why I still dont understand our decision to hire him in the 1st place. Appointing Jose is a sign of accepting defeat, an act of desperation. Secondly, Woody acted like our DoF (not supporting here), and vetoes sales of Martial and Pogba. And we know Jose threw his toys out of the pram. Hell you and the Mourinho fan brigade on here still believe what Jose was doing was right.
So, basically what you're saying is that Jose should have had a DoF but all the signings should have been Jose's. Which is what happened here as well and we know the state of our squad today
I’ve ignored every mention on him so I can’t tell you.
That only important thing in this thread is Ole’s record and it’s horrific, if he had pure pedigree and experience of doing a big rebuild at a top club, that might have bought him more time and patience, but he hasn’t, he’s lucky beyond all belief to have the job in the first place so...
No doubt, and there is obviously a lot of quality in his current Liverpool team too. But neither team are/were loaded with players you'd be confident about walking into any setup, under any (fairly good, obviously) manager - and shine in the same way. With regard to certain Dortmund players around 2012-13, that's hindsight - of course. Most rated both Götze and Reus extremely highly at the time - but that's kind of the point.
As for Kagawa, he wasn't a good fit for United and the timing was off (I'm sure Fergie would have used him far better over time than Moyes/LVG). But the overall impression he made was that of a player who was completely unable to replicate anything like the form he displayed in a particular system when transplanted to a different one. He came in as "one of the best players in the Bundesliga" and left as a flop who looked like a system player (in the wrong system), rather than a genuinely top class player.
Compare his Dortmund team to the Bayern team they lost to in the CL final. The difference is pretty dramatic.
This. Agree 100%.
Basically what I'm saying is if you appoint Jose you know who he is and his methods. You can't fault him for those methods or change a man that is nearly 60. You either back him, support him, or sack him.
I hate generalization and your conclusion is very far from the truth. I've already said multiple times - Jose was our best choice so far in appointments - which doesn't say much. I've also said that we were late to appoint him and he has lost his spark a bit. Wanted to be a good one as to me he is/was a world class manager and can do something about this mess at least on the short term. He also deserved to be sacked.
Never said everything he did was right, so I don't appreciate the name calling.
Your not 100% wrong either as Jose is by far the best coach United have had since SAF.
Now considering the expectation I do think he failed because as one of the GOAT managers you expect more but as was said above he was doomed to fail. Also as you said if you are going to hire a guy like Jose you need to back him 120%, if you do you more then likely will get success and if you do not then he will fail.
Nonetheless he got second place and the same team now (arguably better) is no where near of a shot. He also won trophies at United. Those are the facts and no one should say ohh it was the europa or this or that, he did it point blank period. Ask Liverpool, Spurs, or Arsenal that it is not so simple as it seems to win trophies.
Jose still got it and don't be surprised if he leave OT with a win tonight.
So in conclusion:
Was he a failure considering the expectation? yes
Was he the best/most successful manager since SAF? Yes
Is he better than Ole? Yes
Social media in 73/74, doesn't bare thinking about, scary stuff
You'll be hard pushed to find anybody that is claiming Ole is the new SAF or has the potential to be, in fact if you do name and shame.
And if expectation was different back then why was Dave Sexton sacked?
In 1989/90/91 by and large the fans backed SAF, it was the press trying to force him out.
Too much Mourinho in this thread. He was better than Ole and yet failed at meeting expectations so was fired. Can we move on?
Pereira is nearly 24, a Brazil International with circa 120 senior appearances, and some have been in central midfield, so compared to Garner/Levitt yes he is.
It's not unusual for 16/17/18 year olds to play regularly in the Eredivisie, same as it ever was, but you could count on the fingers of one hand how many 17/18 year olds have been regular starters in the top flight in England since the start of the Premier League in any position, let alone midfield, so well done on naming one albeit the obvious one.
SAF was at United 26/27 years, name one teenager that was a regular starter in midfield in all that time?
Ronaldo started as a Left / Right Midfielder
Beckham was 18
Giggs was 18
I am sure there are many more.
I could give you a list of U21 starters this season in the PL let alone during the last 20 years.
Mount - 20
CHO - 19
Reece James - 19
Tomori -- 21
Declan Rice - 20
Cantwell - 21
Aarons - 19
Godfrey - 21
That's not even naming any Manutd players.
All the teenagers you listed played to the width, my original point.
Mason Mount is not width
Godfrey is a CB
Ruben Loftus Cheek is CM
Declan Rice is CM
I just cant be asked going to check starting 11 of every team because I am sure there are numerous players just this season starting.
And Ferguson had Roy Keane, Carrick, Scholes (starter at 20) so the players coming through had to be better.
We have Fred and McTominay only. If our CM's coming through are no better than Perreira in CM then they wont make it at Manutd.