If you're Ole in, how much time will you give him?

[romufc]

Yep Poch is criticised on the standards of a world class manager. Many of which are fair but to turn around and use it to prop up Ole for making top 4 and bottling cups on even worse showings and a monumentally greater budget makes no sense

There's a legit case to be made that Poch is a bottler, there's zero case to be made that Ole is better or equal

However bad people want to say Poch hasn't won anything, I would say this.

If Ole bottled a title by challenging and lost a CL semi final, I would be here saying we need to keep this guy, give him time.

But his ceiling is top 4 in the PL by being the underdog and cannot get a win in crucial cup ties.

PSG away first time was a miracle - we were 2-0 down and nothing to play for
PSG away this season - first game no one really gave us a chance
Leipzig - good game, was Ole showing he can be tactically good
Istanbul - showed great tactical naivety going away and defending like we did, we only needed a point in that game
PSG & Leipzig - When we are evens or favourites, Ole has no clue how to play and set up a team.

He has never won a crucial game when his back isnt to the walls.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Till the end of the season and more if results this year better than last one, which means top 4,

Most years you won’t get top 4 without a fair few more points than we managed last season.
So what if he gets more points but misses out on top 4? Which is a big possibility.

 

[Leftback99]

We had a better first 11 than Chelsea last season.

Spurs bought 2 first team players and are in a title challenge? explain that?

When you hire a manager on a transition, you have to expect improvement every season. What improvements are there ? 2 years ago when Ole joined.

We played crap football then, we play crap football now
We were a Europa league team, are still a Europa league team

Arsenal went from a phase of top 4 was priority, they let standards slip, what happens when standards slip? they slip further, now their aim is top 4 only.

We are becoming that too, when in reality our squad is good enough to mount a title challenge given the correct coaching, correct play style, correct mentality.

Which manager of a top team blows qualification when you need 1 point in 2? We have one of the most press resistant players and doesnt play against a pressing team?

AWB gets done on the back post every time, nothing changed.
Maguire and other defenders communication is 0
Our midfield is too open


What has Ole done in his two years to deserve more time?

Spurs had Kane and Son missing for large chunks of the season. They went into last season as heavy favourites for 3rd. Besides, I don't think they will challenge for the title when it comes down to it.

Saying this squad is good enough for a title challenge is just as much blind faith as anyone saying Solskjaer can do it. These players have never proved they are consistently up to it other than one off games - every team has those.

We're challenging for top 4 again against 2 strong sides (Chelsea and Spurs) exactly where I would expect us to be but one will miss out and it's likely to be us whether we change manager or not.

 

[romufc]

There are two problems here. First of all the "could argue" part. I'm thinking about signings that are so good that there's no question that they should start. Secondly, 2 of the 3 players are in positions we don't really need. We've been screaming out for an attacker and a DM and maybe a CB. There were typically 3 positions that were brought up during the summer transfer window: RW, DM and CB. Some people wanted a CF, though only if it was a clear improvement on Martial.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have cover for Bruno/Fred or a better leftback than Shaw, but these were clearly not pressing matters. Telles has not looked like an upgrade to Shaw. VDB is still clearly less important to us than Bruno and Fred, though he should probably start against teams that park the bus. Cavani is a decent signing, but is he better than Martial? Is he good enough to lead the line when you consider our history of great strikers(not in the post Fergie era obviously)?

Did we improve the squad? Yes. Did we improve the starting XI? No. And if we did, then the improvements were marginal and mostly in the "wrong" areas.



Oh we'll almost definitely close the gap. We'll probably break 70 points and I don't see Liverpool breaking 90. I reckon whoever wins the title this year will do it with around 85 points. The question isn't whether or not we can close the gap, but rather how much. Is it gonna 5 points or 20 points? This is a weird season, so I feel that anything can happen. In the top 5.

I do take your point in that we didnt get a CB/DM/RW which shows the club have let Ole down. Wasn't Ole in the meeting with Ed when deciding to give Mata, MAtic new contracts? 3 year deals.

Our best games this season where we played good football have been with Fred, Donny, Bruno playing for us, yet he decides not to use them

Look at this for tactical decisions - Leipzig are a team that press, they have great pace to their passing, yet we play Matic, Lindelof, Maguire in the team. how do you expect to get close to them with that pace?

Our defence is terrible, yet he persists with the same 2 CB's every game. He just has no bottle.

 

[Matt851]

Poch never truly contested for the title despite years and years of managing a really strong Spurs squad. Never even won a single trophy in all that time. Are you honestly saying that losing a cup final is an achievement now. ? The standards used to call Ole a failure are similar to the ones being used to celebrate Poch.

They really arent

You also have to look at the context - poch was managing a decaying squad that had almost zero investment over his last few years and yes by the end things went stale as they often do for a manager at a club for a prolonged period (see klopp at dortmund)

 

[Greck]

They really arent

You also have to look at the context - poch was managing a decaying squad that had almost zero investment over his last few years and yes by the end things went stale as they often do for a manager at a club for a prolonged period (see klopp at dortmund)

already replied his post. Wish I remembered to ask when Ole made the CL final to even have a chance to bottle

 

[romufc]

Spurs had Kane and Son missing for large chunks of the season. They went into last season as heavy favourites for 3rd. Besides, I don't think they will challenge for the title when it comes down to it.

Saying this squad is good enough for a title challenge is just as much blind faith as anyone saying Solskjaer can do it. These players have never proved they are consistently up to it other than one off games - every team has those.

We're challenging for top 4 again against 2 strong sides (Chelsea and Spurs) exactly where I would expect us to be but one will miss out and it's likely to be us whether we change manager or not.

So? We had Pogba, Shaw, Rashford missing for large chunks of the season, we had no Bruno for 1/2 a season.

Why isnt this squad good enough? Liverpool players never proved they were up to it before Klopp? they managed to show they can do it.

It's all about mentality, we go into games against WBA at home looking to defend.

Chelsea, Spurs, City, Liverpool when they play games, they control games from minute 1, have the same style of play regardless of the opponent.

In the last 3 games, we have had 3 different style of play. How can you expect team / players to be consistent when the managers tactics arent?

 

[Dante]

An infinite amount of time.

Okay, I'm being facetious when I say that. But the question in the OP is loaded because it assumes that we're frozen in time with no chance of breaking loose.

If nothing changes and the team stagnates, I'd give him till the end of the season. If the team continues to improve, then he deserves to see out that improvement.

 

[Bilbo]

Yep Poch is criticised on the standards of a world class manager. Many of which are fair but to turn around and use it to prop up Ole for making top 4 and bottling cups on even worse showings and a monumentally greater budget makes no sense

There's a legit case to be made that Poch is a bottler, there's zero case to be made that Ole is better or equal

Football fans have a tendency to go over the top with praise and criticism alike. This is nothing new. Pochettino is obviously a strong manager who came away from Tottenham with a lot of credit in the bank, but for our purposes there are two questions that we should be asking ourselves.

(1) Did he do enough at Tottenham to convince us that he is likely enough to be a massive success at United? Enough to convince our board to part with a manager that (a) they seem to be happy with, and (b) has actually done a lot of good things for our club so far (despite how people try to spin it)?

(2) Would we be happy if he achieved the same at United as he did at Tottenham?

For me the answer to both of those questions is no. Now I realise the question 2 is a little unfair on the surface because his spending power here would likely be greater, but then his recruitment at Tottenham wasn't sufficient evidence that he would spend our money more wisely.

By many accounts he has charisma and presence but there is no guarantee that our squad would respond to that and take to his methods. Nobody is more charismatic than Mourinho and I never felt that our players bought into him the way that the Spurs squad seem to be doing right now. He doesn't bring trophies on his CV and Tottenham IMO never had this easily identifiable 'style of play' that so many here seem to be obsessed with. His big game record was little better than dreadful. There are plenty of sticks for the moaners to beat him with the moment they all lose patience with him.

Ultimately if Ole fails here to the point where we need to fire him, then I wouldn't be unhappy at the thought of hiring Poch because I don't see too many stand out candidates out there. At the same time I wouldn't be jumping for joy either. Besides, that isn't the scenario here. We aren't looking for a manager because we have one already. At any point during the last year we could have made the decision to replace Ole and bring him in but we haven't done that. That's 365 times Woodward has woken up with that option and gone to bed without acting upon it, and some of those 365 days were crap days where Ed might have been thinking about it. He is only human after all.

Its time to let this Pochettino thing go. Too many posts have been wasted on him already. Revisit it when it is actually time to do so - ie when we need a manager. We aren't in love with him enough to go after him at all costs. If we were, we would have done it already.

 

[Bilbo]

If nothing changes and the team stagnates, I'd give him till the end of the season. If the team continues to improve, then he deserves to see out that improvement.

Well put. Completely agree

 

[Leftback99]

So? We had Pogba, Shaw, Rashford missing for large chunks of the season, we had no Bruno for 1/2 a season.

Why isnt this squad good enough? Liverpool players never proved they were up to it before Klopp? they managed to show they can do it.

It's all about mentality, we go into games against WBA at home looking to defend.

Chelsea, Spurs, City, Liverpool when they play games, they control games from minute 1, have the same style of play regardless of the opponent.

In the last 3 games, we have had 3 different style of play. How can you expect team / players to be consistent when the managers tactics arent?

Pogba, Shaw and Rashford aren't Kane and Son level that's the problem. Shaw? Doesn't even make England squads but he's seen as a title challenging player here. Rashford arguably isn't first choice for England but we expect him to be the main man for a league winning team, how does that work?

 

[Dike_Manc]

If Ole immediately succeeded SAF I would have want him out, no question. But I have witnessed the shit and cowardice football "highly rated" managers like van Gaal and Mourinho served and I am not impressed. People who want Pochettino will quickly find out why he has not won anything and don't get me started with the naivety of a Nagelsmann.
I am not sure if he should be the one to take us forward especially when he single-handedly crashed us out of the CL but at least he intends to play the football we want to see. I would give him the season and take it from there.

 

[KevinJoh]

We had a better first 11 than Chelsea last season.

No we did not, we had injuries so our first 11 in better part of the season have been made of Pereira, McTominay and Fred, with James getting tones of games, while best players Rashford, Pogba, Martial and Bruno not available for better part of the season. You can maybe argue we had better team with all available which happened in after covid time when we have won more points than Chelsea and even oversome them in the standings.

Spurs bought 2 first team players and are in a title challenge? explain that?

No they are not in a title challenge more than we are at the moment, they are 5 points with a game more above us. And lets remind you it is the same team that was in top 4 in 4 of last 5 seasons.

When you hire a manager on a transition, you have to expect improvement every season. What improvements are there ? 2 years ago when Ole joined.
We played crap football then, we play crap football now
We were a Europa league team, are still a Europa league team

Ole took two years to completely change the team, almost playing completely different 11 than what Jose played. In his last game for example Jose team had only Lindelof, Rashford and De Gea from the players we have now in the best 11. All other players have been older players like Darmian, Young, Matic, Lukaku, Lingard, Herrera, Fellaini. Liverpool had 36 shots against us. The only difference in Liverpool team now and than was that they have TTA and Matip instead of Clyne and Lovren. They have two more years of playing together, we started from zero with a problem to remove deadwood. Ole did that. I guess fans forgot that we lost games in LVG and Jose period from Derby, Bristol City, MK Dons. To remind you that Sevilla in that CL we go through had like 30 shots against us in 0:0 game away. Yes, it is improvement when you play PSG, CL finalist and Leipzig semifinalist and win 2/4 and playing regular open game in other two. Yes, it is fail that we lost the group, but it was not humiliating defeat as against Sevilla. And you certainly won't fall asleep watching United these days. It is improvement, not as big as I would like, but it is improvement,.

 

[romufc]

Pogba, Shaw and Rashford aren't Kane and Son level that's the problem. Shaw? Doesn't even make England squads but he's seen as a title challenging player here. Rashford arguably isn't first choice for England but we expect him to be the main man for a league winning team, how does that work?

Well Bruno is?

The problem is, a better manager will make Rashford, and the like look alot better anyway.

 

[McSauce FC]

If he's such a good manager (one of the best minds on the planet, according to some) then he should be getting better performances, over time, out of the existing players, right? Especially considering he has such a young squad.

I don’t believe he is one of the best minds on the planet, I don’t think anyone does. Just trying to give him a fair chance and judge him objectivly.

Sure, one should expect progression based on us having a young squad and that Ole and his team has had more time with the squad. But I think that factor evens out considering most other clubs has the same advantage, don’t you think?

Then if other top clubs invest in their starting 11 and we don’t, logically that should give them an advantage compared to us.

I’m sorry if I formulate in a funny way, english is not my first language.

 

[romufc]

No we did not, we had injuries so our first 11 in better part of the season have been made of Pereira, McTominay and Fred, with James getting tones of games, while best players Rashford, Pogba, Martial and Bruno not available for better part of the season. You can maybe argue we had better team with all available which happened in after covid time when we have won more points than Chelsea and even oversome them in the standings.

No they are not in a title challenge more than we are at the moment, they are 5 points with a game more above us. And lets remind you it is the same team that was in top 4 in 4 of last 5 seasons.


Ole took two years to completely change the team, almost playing completely different 11 than what Jose played. In his last game for example Jose team had only Lindelof, Rashford and De Gea from the players we have now in the best 11. All other players have been older players like Darmian, Young, Matic, Lukaku, Lingard, Herrera, Fellaini. Liverpool had 36 shots against us. The only difference in Liverpool team now and than was that they have TTA and Matip instead of Clyne and Lovren. They have two more years of playing together, we started from zero with a problem to remove deadwood. Ole did that. I guess fans forgot that we lost games in LVG and Jose period from Derby, Bristol City, MK Dons. To remind you that Sevilla in that CL we go through had like 30 shots against us in 0:0 game away. Yes, it is improvement when you play PSG, CL finalist and Leipzig semifinalist and win 2/4 and playing regular open game in other two. Yes, it is fail that we lost the group, but it was not humiliating defeat as against Sevilla. And you certainly won't fall asleep watching United these days. It is improvement, not as big as I would like, but it is improvement,.

Chelsea have lost one game this season to Liverpool. They have looked a better organised team, better tactically than last season, which shows improvement.

What has changed for us since Ole took over? he has the really good run, we have not played that level of football under him.

Two more years of playing together is fine but 3 years ago Liverpool beat us in the EL to get to the final, which they lost. the season after they got to the CL final, the season after CL win, season after PL win. That is a sign of progress.

We got to semi final of 3 competitions, including EL. We are meant to progress, instead we are back to the EL, fighting for 4th. Where is the progress? There is none.

No one is saying Jose or LVG was better, whether you liked their football or not, in their 2 year stints, they both won trophies, Ole doesnt look like he will ever win a trophy.

Again, the sleepy football they gave us gave us the same results as Ole ? Just because we have to chase every single game after 30 mins doesn't mean its boring, it just shows the manager keeps getting his team selection and tactics wrong. How can you as a manutd manager have to change players at half time in most games?

Ole has done well, unfortunately he has hit his ceiling. He cannot set up a team to win big important games.

 

[OleBoiii]

Our best games this season where we played good football have been with Fred, Donny, Bruno playing for us, yet he decides not to use them

Look at this for tactical decisions - Leipzig are a team that press, they have great pace to their passing, yet we play Matic, Lindelof, Maguire in the team. how do you expect to get close to them with that pace?

Our defence is terrible, yet he persists with the same 2 CB's every game. He just has no bottle.

You've kind of changed the topic now. It's easy to criticize managers for their team selections. I don't think anyone, even Fergie, is safe from this criticism. What if DVB was good in those games because he was suited for those games and Ole got the tactics right? If we lose a game and Player X doesn't start, it doesn't mean that we would have won if he started. It's not that simple. It's the same story with our defense. We don't see the players in training. What if Lindelöf and Maguire genuinely are our best CBs and the best pairing? You don't always need to give a new pairing a 5 game run in order to draw a conclusion. Sometimes it's going to be obvious already on the training ground. That is why I made the other thread about how fans really don't know shit when it comes to tactics. You can be as knowledgeable about football as you want. As long you don't have all the facts, you're gonna be less qualified to conclude whether or not the manager got it wrong. Also, hindsight is 20/20.

___________________________

To get back to where we were: yeah, our defense isn't great. But in terms of team balance, I'd rather sign a goalscorer and a DM before we sign a CB. We need someone who can control the midfield and not squander possession needlessly when pressed. Someone like Carrick. And then we need a consistent goalscorer who is as good at scoring as Bruno is at creating chances.

Give us those two players, and I'm sure we're challenging for titles.

 

[lysglimt]

Well - I would start by saying that the idea of sacking a manager who has 19 points from 10 matches is ridiculous. We beat Burnley away and that is the equivalent to being 2 points behind the league-leaders, with 22 points from 11 matches.
Us going out against Leipzig was unncessary, but at the same time - the chances of us winning the Europa League is bigger than us reaching the semi-finals or the finals of the C.L - we have made progress, but we are not as good as Bayern Munchen - not even close. I would say we can beat almost all teams on our day, but we can also lose against the 16 best teams in Europe when we dont have our day.

I would put it like this - he has almost all the players behind him, so I see no reason to sack him until the end of the season. That is the kind of decision you make if things are really going in the wrong direction - fast. Keep him until the end of the season, if the progress continues - we pick up either 70+ points, top-4 or some silverware - and he deserves to get another season. If we fail to do all that - well then we need to look at things.

But the idea of swapping Ronaldo with Pogba seems very tempting,

 

[Nou_Camp99]

They really arent

You also have to look at the context - poch was managing a decaying squad that had almost zero investment over his last few years and yes by the end things went stale as they often do for a manager at a club for a prolonged period (see klopp at dortmund)

- won nothing

-Had a dreadful top 6 record, especially away from home.

-History of bottling major cup games.

-Knocked out of the EUROPA league by Gent & Fiorentina. Knocked out of domestic gups at home to likes of Palace, Westham and Leicester.


Poch is a nice guy and a decent coach. He's also a gentleman who most people admire. But he's not a winner.

 

[Leftback99]

Well Bruno is?

The problem is, a better manager will make Rashford, and the like look alot better anyway.

We assume they will but I've heard that the next guy will do that before.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

-

-History of bottling major cup games.

-

Another day another pile of bullshit I see.

2 Cup finals.
• Lost the first one to that seasons Premier League Champions - Chelsea
• Lost the second one to Liverpool, who walked the league the following season. A team everyone now sees as probably the best in Europe.

He was the underdog in both matches.

“bottled” my arse, came up against 2 better teams and lost. Just as Fergie didn’t “bottle it” v. Barca or vs. Drogba’s Chelsea for example.

 

[Matt851]

Yes i dont see any progress. Not in style or organisation, we are still a counter attacking team who struggle when we can't do that. Given our best form was when ole started you could argue we are declining.

On the signings, you really think his signings so far have been astute?

Its too early to judge this summers signings properly but i am not impressed with telles, van de beek doesnt seem like a good fit so far and cavani is good but fragile. Looking at the previous years, you have:

James - only cost £15m but seems like an odd signing. He wasnt even seen as one of the best players in the championship. Appears to have been signed due to the giggs connection
Wan bissaka - terrible on the ball and positionally but good at slide tackles. He is an average signing at best
Maguire - who i think is decent but thats it and only a slight improvement in lindelof. Poor signing
Bruno - waste of space (joke)

So out of those seven players i am confident one was a good signing. Thats not a very good success rate even given brunos brilliance. Additionally, we appear to be continuing to sign players who dont fit with fhe profile required

Do you honestly feel that we haven't made progress from where we were when Ole took the interim job?

And also, his signings have so far been very astute. Even Daniel James, who's clearly not up to being more than a bit part player, is an alright signing when you consider the fee and his resale value. And Bruno alone should get him far more backing from the Glazers than he got this summer. There you have the real culprits.

However, I think Maguire is the most questionable of all his signings to date. Partly because of the fee, but also because he was made captain too soon. He's a good PL centre half, but he's not an elite one.

 

[Mount's Goatieson]

Reading through this thread there is one thing I find incredulous. If I owned a football club not named Manchester United and I was to choose a manager from Ole and Poch. There is no way in any part of hell I'd pick Ole over Poch in whatever parameter. People backing Ole in this little joke of a comparison shouldn't deceive themselves, they only do so because he's a legend of your club and has no reasonable basis on managerial prowess. And before anyone decides to take a look at my profile and get smart, no I fecking won't pick Lampard over Poch either if I had no links with Chelsea.

 

[Greck]

Its time to let this Pochettino thing go. Too many posts have been wasted on him already. Revisit it when it is actually time to do so - ie when we need a manager. We aren't in love with him enough to go after him at all costs. If we were, we would have done it already.

Off the 6 paragraphs the only thing I agree on is we should let this go, not the pochettino hiring thing, we should absolutely not let that one go, am talking letting the pochettino discussion in the thread end. Going in circles. Btw by several accounts Ed is a fan of his so there might actually be some infatuation, he'll be the one they go for if Ole is let go. I'd have no qualms with that though I'm starting to prefer Nagelsmann. Making a club like RB relevant to the degree he has is the stuff of gods and he was also great at his last club even though he too hasn't won anything

 

[romufc]

You've kind of changed the topic now. It's easy to criticize managers for their team selections. I don't think anyone, even Fergie, is safe from this criticism. What if DVB was good in those games because he was suited for those games and Ole got the tactics right? If we lose a game and Player X doesn't start, it doesn't mean that we would have won if he started. It's not that simple. It's the same story with our defense. We don't see the players in training. What if Lindelöf and Maguire genuinely are our best CBs and the best pairing? You don't always need to give a new pairing a 5 game run in order to draw a conclusion. Sometimes it's going to be obvious already on the training ground. That is why I made the other thread about how fans really don't know shit when it comes to tactics. You can be as knowledgeable about football as you want. As long you don't have all the facts, you're gonna be less qualified to conclude whether or not the manager got it wrong. Also, hindsight is 20/20.

___________________________

To get back to where we were: yeah, our defense isn't great. But in terms of team balance, I'd rather sign a goalscorer and a DM before we sign a CB. We need someone who can control the midfield and not squander possession needlessly when pressed. Someone like Carrick. And then we need a consistent goalscorer who is as good at scoring as Bruno is at creating chances.

Give us those two players, and I'm sure we're challenging for titles.

I agree with you, the manager sees them in training. If that is the case, why is Tuanzebe not being sold? Clearly he isn't better than Maguire or Lindelof which is a very low threshold. Teams would pay £20-25m for him, if he cannot get in sell him.

I agree, the games he got it right, he got the tactics right, which is why we won the game. The issue I have with Ole is that he always seems to try and out think the other manager when you dont need to. Why do we always seem to be the team that suits our tactics based on the opponent?

PSG, Leipzig are not world beaters, we should be taking the game to them rather than being scared.

We do need a CM that can pass, one I have seen this season who has done this job brilliantly is Kalvin Phillips. He plays these first time passes into the forwards very well, we need someone who can pass quick.

 

[romufc]

We assume they will but I've heard that the next guy will do that before.

Rashford and Martial have both improved under Ole over Jose right?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

There are two problems here. First of all the "could argue" part. I'm thinking about signings that are so good that there's no question that they should start. Secondly, 2 of the 3 players are in positions we don't really need. We've been screaming out for an attacker and a DM and maybe a CB. There were typically 3 positions that were brought up during the summer transfer window: RW, DM and CB. Some people wanted a CF, though only if it was a clear improvement on Martial.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have cover for Bruno/Fred or a better leftback than Shaw, but these were clearly not pressing matters. Telles has not looked like an upgrade to Shaw. VDB is still clearly less important to us than Bruno and Fred, though he should probably start against teams that park the bus. Cavani is a decent signing, but is he better than Martial? Is he good enough to lead the line when you consider our history of great strikers(not in the post Fergie era obviously)?

Did we improve the squad? Yes. Did we improve the starting XI? No. And if we did, then the improvements were marginal and mostly in the "wrong" areas.



Oh we'll almost definitely close the gap. We'll probably break 70 points and I don't see Liverpool breaking 90. I reckon whoever wins the title this year will do it with around 85 points. The question isn't whether or not we can close the gap, but rather how much. Is it gonna 5 points or 20 points? This is a weird season, so I feel that anything can happen in the top 5.

We definitely needed those signings. It tasn't okay to start this season without a back up left back because the only left back we have is injury prone. It wasn't okay to start this season without a solid rotational AM like VdB because Bruno was the only competent AM we had. It wasn't okay to go into this season without a solid back up striker like Cavani because Ighalo's loan ends in January and most of the time the best we can get in January is another striker on loan from China.

I agree on the RW part as It wasn't okay to start this season with only Greenwood as the competent RW. I also agree on the DM part we should have definitely gotten one. But even when you look back, we play a double pivot and back then we had two competent double pivot pairings in Matic and Pogba, Fred and Mctomimay. Fred and Pogba also did well in the Europa league

Overall I'd say we should have also signed a DM and at least a loan deal for an RW if we still plan on going for Sancho. But I disagree with your opinion that those signings we made weren't so necesssary

 

[Leftback99]

Rashford and Martial have both improved under Ole over Jose right?

They are more consistent but still inconsistent. I don't think their top level is that much better.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Another day another pile of bullshit I see.

2 Cup finals.
• Lost the first one to that seasons Premier League Champions - Chelsea
• Lost the second one to Liverpool, who walked the league the following season. A team everyone now sees as probably the best in Europe.

He was the underdog in both matches.

“bottled” my arse, came up against 2 better teams and lost. Just as Fergie didn’t “bottle it” v. Barca or vs. Drogba’s Chelsea for example.

And all the semi finals he lost too? Didn't mention those did you? Wonder why?

Knocked out by Gent and Fiorentina? That's not elite management is it?

He's a bottler mate. Spurs sacked him because they didn't think he could take them to the next level of winning stuff and you think he's the answer at a much tougher presser cooker job like United boss?

Why can't you see this? I really struggle to understand this way of thinking. Spurs upgraded to Jose because he's a winner. How does that make Poch the right man for us? We'll be in same situation as right now in 2 years time under him.

Ole may well not be the man to take us on to the PL title days again. Poch certainly isn't. If you're not good enough to take Spurs on to the winning trophies stage then you're not going to cut it at United are you?

 

[Relfy]

So Poch is a bad manager for playing an unfit Kane in a final(their first ever CL final BTW) but Ole can get no criticism for constantly playing Rashford with injections even though he had a BACK INJURY for weeks???
At least he actually got them to the final despite spending nothing the previous summer

No, I wasn't trying to say that he is a bad manager, but taking that example of shorehorning Kane into the team when it is widely accepted that is disrupted the balance of the team was a mistake, and one of many occasions where when they found themselves in key games but failed to deliver. Poch came close a few times but when it really mattered they/he fell short. This isn't me trying to compare Poch with Ole, but merely stating that our fans are perceiving Poch as the saviour to bring titles back to United, but the reality is that he hasn't won anything and hasn't the best record in the biggest games, so I don't see why so many people believe him to be the answer. I've also not said that Ole cannot be criticised. The Rashford incident you refer to should have been handled differently, but we were a team so devoid of a spark in attack that I imagine a mutual decision was made for Rashford to take the injections to get him through the games when we needed him most. This is not the first time such an incidence has occurred and almost certainly won't be the last time it does either.

My main argument reverts back to the point that we have a fanbase demanding success right away. We need to lookback to where we were and the state of the squad we had. I think we were all in agreement that the squad was bloated, ageing and had too much 'deadwood'. Since Ole came in we have worked to fix that, and have, in my opinion, done pretty well so far in trimming the fat though there is still work to be done.

We finished 3rd in the league last season with the youngest average starting 11 in the league. Since Jan 2019 we're either 1st or 2nd best team in the league (based on total points won during that time frame). We currently have the 3rd youngest starting 11 in the league this season, and by winning our game in hand will be in touching distance of the top of the league. There are clear signs of progress being made. I personally believe that we need to stick with the current direction and allow things to develop. It will take time, there will be setbacks and disappointments, but changing the manager to Poch is not a magic button that will turn us into title winners.

 

[romufc]

Ole may well not be the man to take us on to the PL title days again. Poch certainly isn't. If you're not good enough to take Spurs on to the winning trophies stage then you're not going to cut it at United are you?

This is the thing. Ole is not the man but I had my doubt on whether Poch is the man.

The longer we go on like this the bigger the Poch in brigeade will get. Why? Because Poch is not in a job and is the flavour of the month.

He hasn't done enough to deserve the job, like Ole the players will look at him like... so what have you won?

We saw in the Spurs documentary, Jose had to work hard to change the mentality, they were not winners.

Finally, however well Poch done, his record v Big 6 is terrible. We cannot have another 2 year managerial cycle.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

This is the thing. Ole is not the man but I had my doubt on whether Poch is the man.

The longer we go on like this the bigger the Poch in brigeade will get. Why? Because Poch is not in a job and is the flavour of the month.

He hasn't done enough to deserve the job, like Ole the players will look at him like... so what have you won?

We saw in the Spurs documentary, Jose had to work hard to change the mentality, they were not winners.

Finally, however well Poch done, his record v Big 6 is terrible. We cannot have another 2 year managerial cycle.

Exactly. Well said.

Give Ole till May and then we reassess. What's the point on taking Poch now anyway? This squad isn't his so he probably doesn't want a few of the players. He'd also have to come in a troubling time with no fans and the Pogba situation hanging over us. I couldn't think of a worse time to install a new manager actually.

Ole may well go in the summer and I'm totally okay if he does. I just don't want a bottler coming in who Spurs didn't trust to take to silverware. That should tell us everything about him. Nice guy and plays decent football for most part but not a winner. This club needs a winner.

 

[romufc]

Exactly. Well said.

Give Ole till May and then we reassess. What's the point on taking Poch now anyway? This squad isn't his so he probably doesn't want a few of the players. He'd also have to come in a troubling time with no fans and the Pogba situation hanging over us. I couldn't think of a worse time to install a new manager actually.

Ole may well go in the summer and I'm totally okay if he does. I just don't want a bottler coming in who Spurs didn't trust to take to silverware. That should tell us everything about him. Nice guy and plays decent football for most part but not a winner. This club needs a winner.

The club need to sort alot of things before the football manager which is the problem.

They need to sort the Pogba situation out first, it has to be first priority.

Whether people like it or not, he is holding us back because when the team is doing well he wants to stay, like the summer when there was a hint of positivity finishing 3rd the semi finals him and his agent wanted a new contract. Now, he has to fight to get into the first 11, few bad results he is unhappy. We have had this for 3 years.

How can a manager build a team when the player you want to build around is being a baby? Get rid, so we can go get a player that will compliment the rest of the players rather than trying to fit Pogba in.

We seem to have problems every other month, it is getting frustrating.

 

[Hughie77]

We didn't need to change formation against RBL. Same formation as most games 4 back 2 holders and the rest up front. That was big error and ole knows it. Utd cant play for a draw defensively not good enough have to go for win . If Draw comes from it then ok. RBL had to win so they would have had to have a a go. Never mind that's history now. Poor finish in league Oles gone next summer. Europa league is pants I dont give a hoot if in or out . But ole will go for it I'm sure. Beat city on sat everything ok then

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

Apart from a terrible meltdown, i want him to stay this season at least. If we can give the league title a go, he deserves another year.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And all the semi finals he lost too? Didn't mention those did you? Wonder why?

Knocked out by Gent and Fiorentina? That's not elite management is it?

Neither of those were semi finals? Which semis did he lose?
Fergie lost knockout games to Leverkusen, Porto.. it happens even to the best.

Strange that you consider taking a team to 86 points, their highest points tally ever, having them in a title race until May for the first time since the PL began, and taking a team to their best ever Champions League run; all on a fraction of Ole’s budget, as not top management, yet somehow Ole is.

Go figure.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Neither of those were semi finals? Which semis did he lose?
Fergie lost knockout games to Leverkusen, Porto.. it happens even to the best.

Strange that you consider taking a team to 86 points, their highest points tally ever, having them in a title race until May for the first time since the PL began, and taking a team to their best ever Champions League run; all on a fraction of Ole’s budget, as not top management, yet somehow Ole is.

Go figure.

The fact you're asking this shows just how clueless you are and you don't know the facts. He lost 3 domestic semi finals in 5 years I think. One of them was against us ffs. I'd have thought you'd have remembered that one. Sanchez header at Wembley ring any bells? Herrera bagged the other.

 

[Leftback99]

However bad people want to say Poch hasn't won anything, I would say this.

If Ole bottled a title by challenging and lost a CL semi final, I would be here saying we need to keep this guy, give him time.

But his ceiling is top 4 in the PL by being the underdog and cannot get a win in crucial cup ties.

PSG away first time was a miracle - we were 2-0 down and nothing to play for
PSG away this season - first game no one really gave us a chance
Leipzig - good game, was Ole showing he can be tactically good
Istanbul - showed great tactical naivety going away and defending like we did, we only needed a point in that game
PSG & Leipzig - When we are evens or favourites, Ole has no clue how to play and set up a team.

He has never won a crucial game when his back isnt to the walls.

What do you say about Poch's terrible record against 'top 6' rivals and their really poor record in 2019 before he was sacked for our ex manager?

 

[pocco]

Exactly. Well said.

Give Ole till May and then we reassess. What's the point on taking Poch now anyway? This squad isn't his so he probably doesn't want a few of the players. He'd also have to come in a troubling time with no fans and the Pogba situation hanging over us. I couldn't think of a worse time to install a new manager actually.

Ole may well go in the summer and I'm totally okay if he does. I just don't want a bottler coming in who Spurs didn't trust to take to silverware. That should tell us everything about him. Nice guy and plays decent football for most part but not a winner. This club needs a winner.

Get Allegri then. Winner and has got a tune out of Pogba in the past.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Get Allegri then. Winner and has got a tune out of Pogba in the past.

I think both managers won't give us what we want