Il Fenomeno Draft - FINAL - Gio vs 2mufc0/theon

[Šjor Bepo]

vs

Team Gio

ON THE BALL:

The gameplan revolves around getting Best, Puskas, Gullit and Maradona onto the ball in dangerous positions to run at 2mufc0/Theon's defence. . On the flanks the trickery of Best is as good as it gets and he is complemented in style by the athleticism and directness of Gullit, who, like Puskas, will relish attacking Best's deliveries, particularly against Cole. Both players too will seek out the service provided by the driving Maradona through the heart of the opposition team.

OFF THE BALL:

Defensively I expect solid work rate from the front through Gullit and Best with Tardelli and Tigana squeezing space to limit the service to cancel out the build up from deep. Gullit will drop into the midfield effort to make best use of his supreme athleticism and all-round game. Midfield will be a battlezone with Tardelli reprising his head-to-head showdown and man-of-the-match performance in the 1982 World Cup Final against Breitner. His double pivot with Tigana will provide a strong platform for Maradona, whilst limiting service into Messi between the lines.

Defending Messi requires some planning. At left-back not only is Nilton Santos top 3 of all time, but he is an excellent fit for Messi - two-footed, defends well on his right-hand side, and proven at LCB in a three (where he was in Team of the Tournament at the 1954 World Cup). He also offers class on the ball and defensive acumen off it. Inside Nilton Santos we have specifically introduced Hector Chumpitaz whose powerful low centre of gravity and razor-sharp reading of the game is custom-designed for the type of on-the-ground threats Messi poses.

Beckenbauer leads the defence to provide quality and control. He will engage in a battle of wits with Van Basten and has the intelligence and resourcefulness to respond to the Dutchman's wide range of tools. The quality team that 2mufc0 and Theon have assembled is not one based on crossing with two in-cutting wide forwards and two full-backs who prefer to link-up play on the ground. Therefore both Messi and Carlos Alberto will look to play it into his feet - where Chumpitaz will use his powerful low build to attack the first ball - and the channels where Beckenbauer will be covering. On the right McGrain is defensively rock solid and will feed the ball early up to Gullit. His rapid pace and experience of defending centrally makes him a tough task for Blokhin. Together we are well covered across the likely lines of attack.

KEY POINTS:

• Midfield will be a battlezone but Maradona is likeliest to emerge with the ball on his toe. He will love playing ahead of such a hard-working and tenacious midfield who were so formidable fetching and carrying for Platini in the 1980s.
• Stopping one of Best and Maradona might be achievable on a rare day. Stopping both of them is highly unlikely, despite the quality of opposition they are facing.
• Most clear-cut penalty-box route to goal is Gullit attacking crosses from Best (or Maradona, Nilton or Puskas), getting above Cole with his bigger frame and superior leap. Cole was famously outjumped by Thomas Muller at the back post in a Champions League Final no less and I can only imagine the sort of mismatch that Gullit will impose on him gambling on crosses from the left side.

Team 2mufc0/theon

DEFENCE

The backline is marshalled by two of the greatest defenders of all time in Gaetano Scirea and Elias Figueroa – both provide world class distribution from the back whilst remaining the gold-standard defensively (in our opinion only Nesta and Baresi match them in a defensive sense). Despite both leading their respective backlines it’s a partnership we see working well, Scirea more of a natural sweeping, covering defender whilst Figueroa offers greater physicality and aerial dominance. The great Carlos Alberto comes into the team at right back (Captain of Brazil 1970 and virtually unmatched as a defensive play-maker), along with Ashley Cole on the opposite side they provide elite defensive cover and also offer support in the attacking phases. Rounding off the defence is Preud'homme who remains the best Belgian keeper of all time and was twice voted the second best goalkeeper in the world by the IFFHS during this period (later winning the award in '94).

MIDFIELD

With the upgraded Voronin the midfield looks monstrous to play-through, filled with technical quality, work-rate and physicality which looks tailor-made to curb the influence of Maradona. The heart of the team remains our two box-to-box machines who we expect to wrestle control of game and provide the platform for our offence - of the two the dynamic Paul Breitner (in his later midfield incarnation, runner-up in the Ballon d'Or, 1-in-2 goal record for Bayern) will be given more freedom to break forward to utilise his goal scoring strengths while Roy Keane sits deeper as a controlling, defensive box-to-box player. One of the best defensive midfielders of all time in Valery Voronin has been selected as a dominant defensive presence, he will screen in front of the back-line whilst spraying the ball from deep with his passing range. Whilst dominant off-the ball, all three also possess excellent passing skills and are well suited to playing sharp passes between the lines to feed our attackers - both Keane and in particular Breitner were also known for bursting forward and scoring goals and have the perfect platform to do that here.

ATTACK

Whilst he has various GOAT versions, in attack we have selected the MSN version of Lionel Messi which is probably Messi at his best in terms of complimenting other star attackers and utilises his peak-playmaking whilst maintaining the overall goal threat. In terms of role Messi has the freedom to roam across the pitch and we see him slicing through central areas (exploiting the lack of a pure holding player with both Tardelli / Tigana being more box-to-box) before feeding MVB / Blokhin or running straight at the opposition back line.

Cutting in from the left wing is the explosive Ballon d’Or winner Oleg Blokhin whose speed and incision looks tailor-made for Messi's passing (that cross-field right-to-left pass to Alba was one of the signature characteristics of Messi's playmaking) – with 72 goals in 120 games over this period he offers huge offensive threat whilst also being extremely hard-working and dynamic off the ball (a core facet of Lobanovsky's style) - whilst we rate the defensive qualities of McGrain we think it's one of the stronger 1 vs 1 battles on the park and the sheer speed and off-the-ball movement of Blokhin to pose real problems.

Rounding off our attack is arguably the most complete striker of all time in Marco Van Basten – his combination of physicality, technical quality and aerial ability is probably only bettered by Pele and we see him linking up well with Blokhin in particular with his ability to receive the ball in tight areas and hold off defenders. Ultimately though his main role here is to finish off the chances which are carved out for him by Messi and co – despite the quality of the defence that he is up against it’s hard to bet against Van Basten with this level of service, and we think he probably edges out those centre backs aerially (particularly the 5 ft 7 Chumpitaz) which could prove vital given Van Basten's ability in the air and deliveries from wide areas.

THOUGHTS ON THE GAME

1. OPPOSITION THREATS WELL COUNTERED – This looks like a tight game given the quality of both sides, but overall we feel like we match slightly better against the opposition threats than Gio with our forwards. Our central core of Breitner / Keane / Voronin / Figueroa/ Scirea is as rock-solid as it gets defensively and looks perfectly setup to counter the threat of Maradona - the work-rate and ball-winning of Voronin and Keane in particular should pressure him in possession, whilst the overall area looks highly congested anyway (Puskas dropped deep at his best, Gullit was a second striker in this period) which should blunt some of Maradona's threat - in our view an off-the-ball pitch runner or chalk-on-their-boots wide presence would stretch the our central core and probably provide more for the side.

The trickery of Best and physicality of Gullit is well countered by Carlos Alberto (superb reading of the game, comfortable at centre back with the character and mentality to relish the challenge) and Cole (often underrated as a modern player, but defensively Cole stuck to a task like glue and outside Maldini it’s hard to think of a better defensive shackler). Then Puskas as a #9 looks perfectly countered by Figueroa / Scirea, both exceptional positionally which should counter his movement in the box which is probably the biggest threat from Puskas in this #9 role (lacking the raw explosiveness to pose a problem physically).

2. THE MARADONA / BEST CONUNDRUM - Whilst a partnership between GOATS look great on paper we don't feel like this one is a particularly complementary partnership in terms of personality or tactical fit - both were individual, flair players who performed most effectively with the team built around them. They also both looked to get on the ball as much as possible and act as primary playmakers, which we see causing a clash here - tactically Maradona would be better suited with Blokhin than Best for the opposition side (selfless off-the ball runner, looking to get on the end of Maradona's passes as opposed to battling for influence).

3. ADVANTAGE AT GOALKEEPER - Thomas Ravelli was a decent keeper and well-known for his exploits in the 94 World Cup (particularly the penalty saves) but it should be noted many GK's have had good international tournaments (Ochoa, Ospina, Howard, Keller etc) and that over a three year peak period there needs to be a sustained level of strong performance which we feel is lacking here. Ultimately playing in Sweden for his club career Ravelli has rarely faced goalscorers like Messi, Van Basten and Blokhin and with the long-range shooting from players like Breitner we feel its an area we can exploit. Even in WC94 Romario was the only comparable top tier #9 that Ravelli faced who scored in both of his games against Sweden (the second a good header, but the first a shot that should have been saved) - in the sole game Ravelli played against Van Basten he was hit for four goals which adds to the match-up in our favour.

Spoiler: PLAYER ACHIEVEMENTS IN CHOSEN PERIODS

Michel Preud'homme (88-91) GK- Belgian 1st Division, UEFA Cup Winners Cup, European Super Cup, Belgian Golden Shoe, Belgian GK of the Year x 3.

Gaetano Scirea (79-82) CB - Seria A x 2, Copa Italia, Fifa World Cup 1982, UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament 1980.

Elias Figueroa (74-77) CB - Campeonato Gaúcho (5): 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, Campeonato Brasileiro Série A (2): 1975, 1976, All-Star Team of 1974 FIFA World Cup & Best defense of the tournament,South American Footballer of the Year 1974, 1975, 1976, South American defense of the year 77,75,76,77, Best global defense of the year 74,75,76,77, Bola de Ouro Brazil's Best Player 1976, Bola de Prata Brazil's best defence of the year 74,75,76.

Carlos Alberto (68-71) RB - Recopa Sul-Americana: 1968, Taça de Prata: 1968, Paulista Championship:1968, 1969, FIFA World Cup: 1970, FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1970, World Team of the 20th Century: 1998, National Soccer Hall of Fame: 2003, FIFA 100: 2004,The Best of The Best – Player of the Century: Top 50, Brazilian Football Museum Hall of Fame

Ashley Cole (08-11) LB - Premier League 09-10, FA Cup x 3, FA Community Shield 09, UEFA Champions League 11-12, PFA Team of the Year 10-11, UEFA Team of the Year 2010, Chelsea Players Player of the Year x 2, England Player of the Year 2010, Premier League 20 Seasons Awards (1992–93 to 2011–12).

Valery Voronin (64-66) DM – Soviet Footballer of the Year 1964, 1965; Soviet Top league 1965;

Roy Keane (98-01) CM - Premier League: 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, FA Cup: 1998–99, UEFA Champions League 98-99, Intercontinental Cup 1999, PFA Team of the Year 99-00, 00-01, 01-02, PFA Team of the Century: (1907–2007), FAI Senior International Player of the Year: 2001, Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year: 1999, 2000, RTÉ Sports Person of the Year: 1999, FWA Footballer of the Year: 2000, PFA Players' Player of the Year: 2000, ESM Team of the Year: 1999–2000, Premier League 10 Seasons Awards: (1992–93 to 2001–02), Premier League 20 Seasons Awards: (1992–93 to 2011–12).

Paul Breitner (79-82) CM - Bundesliga: 1979–80, 1980–81, DFB-Pokal: 1981–82, kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season:1978–79, 1979–80, 1980–81, 1981–82, 1982–83, Footballer of the Year in Germany: 1981, Ballon d'Or: 1981 (Runner-up), IOC European Footballer of the Season 1980–81, FIFA World Cup All-Time Team, FIFA 100, Bayern Munich All-time XI.

Lionel Messi (14-17) RW - La Liga: 2014–15, 2015–16, 2017–18, Copa del Rey: 2014–15, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18, Supercopa de España: 2016, UEFA Champions League: 2014–15, UEFA Super Cup: 2015, FIFA Club World Cup: 2015, FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2015, FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 2014, European Golden Shoe: 2016–17, 2017–18, Copa América Golden Ball: 2015, UEFA Men's Player of the Year Award: 2015, La Liga Best Player: 2014–15, La Liga Best Forward: 2014–15, 2015–16, Pichichi Trophy: 2016–17, 2017–18, FIFA Club World Cup Silver Ball: 2015, IFFHS World's Best Playmaker: 2015, 2016, 2017, Olimpia de Plata (Argentine Footballer of the Year): 2015, 2016, 2017, FIFA FIFPro World11: 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, UEFA Team of the Year: 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, La Liga Team of the Season: 2014–15, 2015–16, FIFA World Cup Dream Team: 2014, Copa América Dream Team: 2015, 2016, Argentine Football Assn. Team of All Time (published 2015).

Marco van Basten (86-89) CF - KNVB Cup 86, UEFA Cup Winners Cup 86-87, Serie A 87-89, Copa Italia 88, UEFA CL 89-89, 89-90, Euro Supercup 89, Intercontinental Cup 89, UEFA EURO Championship 88, Ballon d'OR 88,89, UEFA Best Player, Ballon d'Or: 1988, 1989, UEFA Best Player of the Year: 1989, European Cup Top Scorer: 1988–89, Serie A Golden Boot: 1989–90, Eredivisie Top Scorer: 1986–87, Bravo Award: 1987, Onze d'Argent: 1987, Onze d'Or: 1988, 1989, IFFHS World’s Best Player: 1988, 1989, World Soccer Player of the Year: 1988, UEFA Euro 1988: Top Scorer and Best Player with 5 goals, UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 1988, FIFA 100, UEFA Golden Jubilee Poll: #4,Italian Football Hall of Fame, UEFA Euro All-time XI (published 2016), A.C. Milan Hall of Fame, IFFHS Legends.

Oleg Blokhin (73-75) – Hardworking wide forward – Soviet Top League 1974, 1975; Soviet Cup 1974; UEFA Cup Winners Cup 1975; UEFA Super Cup 1975; ; Soviet Top League top scorer 1973, 1974, 1975; Ballon d'Or 1974 – 19th, 1975 – 1st

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@2mufc0 @Theon @Gio good luck

 

[harms]

Nilton-Chumpitaz-Tigana trio is a very good set of players to try to solve the Messi conundrum, but I don't really see who is going to stop van Basten. I would imagine that the Dutchman would be one of the worst possible opponents for Beckenbauer — not only he's one of the few forwards who can challenge him in terms of understanding of the game, but his physicality is going to be a huge issue. Chumpitaz ain't going to help him there and there's not even an option of a Rijkaard-esque DM dropping back — neither Tardelli nor Tigana aren't going to cause issues for van Basten in the air.

Basically, what @Gio said about Gullit attacking crosses is what's likely to happen on the other side of the pitch, while Gullit has a towering Figueroa and Voronin, who is perfectly fitted for the role of the supplementary presence in the box. I'd probably switch Scirea & Figueroa, but I'm sure that eventually they'll sort it between themselves, especially since Gio's attack is unlikely to stay in that rigid 4-2-3-1 shape, I expect a lot of interchanges there.

Ravelli is also looking a bit out of place on the pitch, considering the level of players around him.

Gio's front four can still win the game for him though, it's quite immense. I won't vote until I see some discussion taking place, although I'm edging towards 2&T.

 

[Gio]

@harms Yes Van Basten is better in the air (although Beckenbauer and Chumpitaz are pretty good without being Ruggeri-esque). And Van Basten would have an advantage in the air had there been a steady stream of crosses flowing in. But I just don’t see where they are coming from and how he can capitalise on that edge. For all of Messi’s creativity he simply does not hang crosses up for centre-forwards to attack. Everything is on the deck which is where Beckenbauer and Chumpitaz are so effective. And his MSN version cuts inside to a central area that is a long way away from a traditional crossing position.

I spent a fair time studying Carlos Alberto’s game and it’s mostly 20-yard passes into feet. On the rare occasions he gets into the attacking third it’s always low driven deliveries. Both the types of low service that Chumpitaz is tailor-made to cut out.

It’s a similar picture on the other flank where the opposition sport a wide forward and a short interplay based full back. Cole was schooled under Wenger so his attacking game was about combinations with Pires and Henry. Longer crosses have never been a part of his game nor a particular strength of his.

So yes I concede that Van Basten has an aerial edge but to me it’s not one that will be capitalised on in this game.

 

[Gio]

ADVANTAGE AT GOALKEEPER - Thomas Ravelli was a decent keeper and well-known for his exploits in the 94 World Cup (particularly the penalty saves) but it should be noted many GK's have had good international tournaments (Ochoa, Ospina, Howard, Keller etc) and that over a three year peak period there needs to be a sustained level of strong performance which we feel is lacking here. Ultimately playing in Sweden for his club career Ravelli has rarely faced goalscorers like Messi, Van Basten and Blokhin and with the long-range shooting from players like Breitner we feel its an area we can exploit.

I would concede a quality gap if the opposition had a heavyweight Yashin or Buffon figure in the opposition net as Sjor did in the last round for instance. However, when you have Preud'homme, who ironically also spent his career in second-tier leagues, then it doesn't wash frankly. During Thomas Ravelli's three-year peak period between 1992 and 1995, he:

• Reached the Euro '92 Semi Final, knocking out France and England en route.
• Reached the World Cup '94 Semi Final, coming third overall.
• Came second in IFHHS World Goalkeeper of the Year in 1994
• Came third in IFHHS World Goalkeeper of the Year in 1995.

Personally I'd choose Preud'homme, but it's pretty marginal and their achievements during their respective three-year peaks are comparable (if not actually favouring Ravelli). And he was no flash in the pan, winning 143 caps in a long international career when he was exposed to the best European and World football had to offer over the best part of two decades.

 

[2mufc0]

I think we are too fixated on wingers running down the byline and crossing, this is not the only way Van Basten's heading can be utilised, lofted balls/long balls behind the defence is a speciality of Messi. Also heading is not only about attacking the goal, lay offs bringing the other attackers into play can also be just as deadly.

The video below shows exactly what I mean about Messi's crossing from central areas :


And that's before we mention the likes of Breitner who could play some incredible long balls.

 

[2mufc0]

I would concede a quality gap if the opposition had a heavyweight Yashin or Buffon figure in the opposition net as Sjor did in the last round for instance. However, when you have Preud'homme, who ironically also spent his career in second-tier leagues, then it doesn't wash frankly. During Thomas Ravelli's three-year peak period between 1992 and 1995, he:

• Reached the Euro '92 Semi Final, knocking out France and England en route.
• Reached the World Cup '94 Semi Final, coming third overall.
• Came second in IFHHS World Goalkeeper of the Year in 1994
• Came third in IFHHS World Goalkeeper of the Year in 1995.

Personally I'd choose Preud'homme, but it's pretty marginal and their achievements during their respective three-year peaks are comparable (if not actually favouring Ravelli). And he was no flash in the pan, winning 143 caps in a long international career when he was exposed to the best European and World football had to offer over the best part of two decades.

Sorry Gio I'm not having that, it's not even close!

Michel Preud'homme (88-91) GK- Belgian 1st Division, UEFA Cup Winners Cup, European Super Cup, Belgian Golden Shoe, Belgian GK of the Year x 3.

 

[Gio]

Breitner who could play some incredible long balls.

But he's on the left hand side, cutting inside, so the only crosses he can play will be straight, which are pretty much the worst ones you can play and easiest to defend against.

 

[Raees]

@harms Yes Van Basten is better in the air (although Beckenbauer and Chumpitaz are pretty good without being Ruggeri-esque). And Van Basten would have an advantage in the air had there been a steady stream of crosses flowing in. But I just don’t see where they are coming from and how he can capitalise on that edge. For all of Messi’s creativity he simply does not hang crosses up for centre-forwards to attack. Everything is on the deck which is where Beckenbauer and Chumpitaz are so effective. And his MSN version cuts inside to a central area that is a long way away from a traditional crossing position.

I spent a fair time studying Carlos Alberto’s game and it’s mostly 20-yard passes into feet. On the rare occasions he gets into the attacking third it’s always low driven deliveries. Both the types of low service that Chumpitaz is tailor-made to cut out.

It’s a similar picture on the other flank where the opposition sport a wide forward and a short interplay based full back. Cole was schooled under Wenger so his attacking game was about combinations with Pires and Henry. Longer crosses have never been a part of his game nor a particular strength of his.

So yes I concede that Van Basten has an aerial edge but to me it’s not one that will be capitalised on in this game.

Good argument on MVB not being capitalised to the full.. I think Carlos Alberto is key in getting him that aerial supply but he was more of a long passer than a cross merchant.

Messi will have Nilton on toast IMO but you’re right to point out he isn’t going to use that to put crosses in.

 

[2mufc0]

Good argument on MVB not being capitalised to the full.. I think Carlos Alberto is key in getting him that aerial supply but he was more of a long passer than a cross merchant.

Messi will have Nilton on toast IMO but you’re right to point out he isn’t going to use that to put crosses in.

Watch the video I posted above, plenty of examples.

 

[2mufc0]

Sorry Gio I'm not having that, it's not even close!

Michel Preud'homme (88-91) GK- Belgian 1st Division, UEFA Cup Winners Cup, European Super Cup, Belgian Golden Shoe, Belgian GK of the Year x 3.

Furthermore, Ravelli doesn't even feature in this list

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/redcafes-all-time-top-20-goalkeepers-results.448683/

 

[Gio]

Sorry Gio I'm not having that, it's not even close!

Michel Preud'homme (88-91) GK- Belgian 1st Division, UEFA Cup Winners Cup, European Super Cup, Belgian Golden Shoe, Belgian GK of the Year x 3.

Ravelli was a fundamental part of a Sweden side that were amongst the best in the world at two consecutive tournaments.

Good argument on MVB not being capitalised to the full.. I think Carlos Alberto is key in getting him that aerial supply but he was more of a long passer than a cross merchant.

Messi will have Nilton on toast IMO but you’re right to point out he isn’t going to use that to put crosses in.

Well it's the whole rationale for choosing Chumpitaz. I could have opted for a tall stopper, but after assessing the opposition simply not being a crossing-based team, the main threats looked to be on the deck.

 

[Raees]

Watch the video I posted above, plenty of examples.

Not showing mate.

 

[2mufc0]

I think we are too fixated on wingers running down the byline and crossing, this is not the only way Van Basten's heading can be utilised, lofted balls/long balls behind the defence is a speciality of Messi. Also heading is not only about attacking the goal, lay offs bringing the other attackers into play can also be just as deadly.

The video below shows exactly what I mean about Messi's crossing from central areas :


And that's before we mention the likes of Breitner who could play some incredible long balls.

@Raees

 

[Raees]

@Raees

Saying unavailable so just went and watched it on YouTube instead. Yeah I guess it rests on whether or not you think Beckenbauer and Chumpitaz will struggle with long balls played in front of them which doesn’t really require that much in terms of diving headers etc and is easier to read versus those whipped in balls from wide areas which are much harder to defend against.

I don’t see too many examples of Messi putting in those type of crosses.

 

[Gio]

Now the difference is that we have a clear plan of attack for crosses into Gullit.

Main Route - George Best
Carlos Alberto is a consummate all-rounder and defensively solid. His highlights from his single tournament are those of an impressive playmaker from deep. I love watching him because he's such a class act. But I wanted to see how he fared against a top class winger. The only one I could find was the game and a half he played against Dzajic for Yugoslavia (a 3-3 draw) and the Rest of the World (a 2-1 Selecao win) in the late 1960s. Across the 135 minutes the two players were on the park, Carlos Alberto's Brazil concede 4 goals - and all 4 goals were crossed from the right-back area. Every single one, averaging one every 34 minutes.

Now Best was well versed in twisting and turning out wide then hanging up crosses for the likes of Denis Law to attack. He is up against a right-back who is unquestionably one of the greatest of all time yet, from what I’ve seen against top opposition, didn't always make a great fist of stopping crosses himself.

Other routes - Maradona and Puskas
Maradona loved carrying the ball onto his left peg to create an angle for a back post cross or the diagonal clip over the defence for Gullit to attack. About half of the 50 assists in the video below fit that bill, but even just check out the first five or so.



Gullit will be like a dreadlocked bullet train attacking some of those.

Meanwhile we expect Puskas to loiter around the box and bury any chances that come his way. But he too has the ability to peel wide and bend a powerful cross across the face of the defence - he did it often enough for Kocsis.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Across the 135 minutes the two players were on the park, Carlos Alberto's Brazil concede 4 goals - and all 4 goals were crossed from the right-back area. Every single one, averaging one every 34 minutes.

Any footage of C.Alberto being at fault from those matches? From what I've seen C.Alberto has always been more or less flawless defensively.

 

[Theon]

Van Basten would have an advantage in the air had there been a steady stream of crosses flowing in. But I just don’t see where they are coming from and how he can capitalise on that edge.

Not buying what you’re selling here at all to be honest. Based on your criteria on which players are a threat from crossing it’s a wonder any player scores a headed goal. Carlos Alberto is probably the best technician / playmaker in history from right back (Cafu beats him physically and for sheer up-and-down presence but he wasn’t a better passer) – suggesting he can’t loft a decent aerial ball in for Van Basten seems quite incredible to me. Likewise with Messi, Blokhin, Breitner or Cole – every one of them is perfectly capable crossing the ball into the middle. We're talking about a 6 ft 2 powerhouse against a 5 ft 7 centre back, it doesn't need Beckham levels of accuracy to pose a problem here - particularly when in the same breath you talk up a Gullit header when we have Scirea and Figueroa of all people to defend crosses (and he's supposed to be out on the right wing anyway).

And in terms of the flawless aerial route you're trying to sell in your team – let’s be clear here that George Best wasn’t Tom Finney / Stanley Matthews. The reason we highlighted the lack of compatibility with Maradona was his tendency to come infield and dominate play in the middle just as much as he would on the outside (more so in fact – he just wasn’t at all a chalk on their boots crossing wide-man). The reason he was so effective (and ended up United's top goalscorer five seasons in a row) was precisely because he didn't stand on the touchline swinging in crosses all the time, as a player he was extremely incisive with his movement and on the ball he'd look to drive at goal as opposed to run to the byline.

The three games below show that well – Best spends the majority of time infield as opposed to out wide and across all three games he makes ONE aerial cross (two if you count lumping the ball back into the box with it bouncing around following a corner).

Spoiler: Best vs Madrid, Liverpool and Spurs

 

[Jim Beam]

Van Basten - Blokhin - Messi gets my vote...

From the start they drafted brilliantly and it was my favorite team all along. The match is impossible to judge, but it is not a team built around Beckenbauer. Ironically, if 2mufc/theon got Pele they would never get my vote. One of my favorite teams drafted here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Van Basten - Blokhin - Messi gets my vote...

From the start they drafted brilliantly and it was my favorite team all along. The match is impossible to judge, but it is not a team built around Beckenbauer. Ironically, if 2mufc/theon got Pele they would never get my vote. One of my favorite teams drafted here.

Agreed. That front three is a thing of a beauty. And it's a shame that Blokhin seems to be going under the radar here. Messi playing those trademark balls of his to Blokhin is a great route to goal, unfortunately can't see McGrain being able to cope with Blokhin's pace or directness, as good as he was.

 

[Himannv]

Some good arguments raised about Van Basten not getting as much service. However, I think MVB's main source of aerial opportunities will probably come via Breitner. Even though the formation graphic has him on the left, he will often turn up randomly at RW and provide a ball over the top for any runners ahead of him. I suppose Tardelli is instructed to follow him around the pitch but I don't know what that does to the shape.

I think 3-year-peaks for goalkeepers is a bit strange to me as you'd ideally want to look at an entire career or at least a longer peak to rate them. Consistency and longevity are key factors there. Either way, I think Preud'homme is certainly the better keeper.

Intriguing game anyway and I'll keep an eye on it to see how the discussions go before voting.

 

[harms]

Van Basten - Blokhin - Messi gets my vote...

Agreed. That front three is a thing of a beauty. And it's a shame that Blokhin seems to be going under the radar here. Messi playing those trademark balls of his to Blokhin is a great route to goal, unfortunately can't see McGrain being able to cope with Blokhin's pace or directness, as good as he was.

Agree. It reminds me a bit about the Cristiano - van Basten - Messi front line that I had, but I genuinely like this more, I always felt that with Cristiano there's going to be some personality issues, while this trio on paper is just

Blokhin working his ass off as well as providing that Neymar/Alba runs for Messi's lofted balls on the left is fantastic.

 

[Gio]

Not buying what you’re selling here at all to be honest. Based on your criteria on which players are a threat from crossing it’s a wonder any player scores a headed goal. Carlos Alberto is probably the best technician / playmaker in history from right back (Cafu beats him physically and for sheer up-and-down presence but he wasn’t a better passer) – suggesting he can’t loft a decent aerial ball in for Van Basten seems quite incredible to me. Likewise with Messi, Blokhin, Breitner or Cole – every one of them is perfectly capable crossing the ball into the middle. We're talking about a 6 ft 2 powerhouse against a 5 ft 7 centre back, it doesn't need Beckham levels of accuracy to pose a problem here - particularly when in the same breath you talk up a Gullit header when we have Scirea and Figueroa of all people to defend crosses (and he's supposed to be out on the right wing anyway).

It's simply not a part of their game and there's very little evidence through their careers that they whipped crosses into centre-forwards in the air. If you had Brehme or Carlos at left-back - players with track records of doing just that - then I'd buy it and have brought in a different type of centre-half. The 4-3-3 you've built is similar to a lot of modern 4-3-3s where high crosses aren't really a feature of how attacks are built. And it makes sense with someone like Messi where an overly direct style of play would be alien to him.

And in terms of the flawless aerial route you're trying to sell in your team – let’s be clear here that George Best wasn’t Tom Finney / Stanley Matthews. The reason we highlighted the lack of compatibility with Maradona was his tendency to come infield and dominate play in the middle just as much as he would on the outside (more so in fact – he just wasn’t at all a chalk on their boots crossing wide-man). The reason he was so effective (and ended up United's top goalscorer five seasons in a row) was precisely because he didn't stand on the touchline swinging in crosses all the time, as a player he was extremely incisive with his movement and on the ball he'd look to drive at goal as opposed to run to the byline.

Yes, like all truly great wingers, he could do both - provide from out wide and go direct. I haven't really touched on his ability to cut through the defence towards goal because it seemed fairly obvious. And that works alongside Maradona's ability to pull wide as amply demonstrated in the video above, which is all part of a fluid front four with clearly distinct starting positions.

 

[Gio]

Well done to you both @Theon and @2mufc0. I was sure from around round 4 in the snake that you were going to win as you had secured the least blocky GOAT attacker and second least blocky GOAT defender, knowing you wouldn't make any mistakes from there, whilst leaving those Brazil and Milan spots free for major reinforcement.

I felt like we were chasing our tails at the bottom end and we either had to go heavy on the big clubs/countries to compete in the 1st round and quarter finals, or take the strategic path pursued by @harms @Joga Bonito @crappycraperson and @Physiocrat and hope for lucky draws. George Best was a good pick, but he did block both Moore and Figueroa which was a bit of a ball-ache. I almost sacrificed leaving the spot open for Maradona/Messi by choosing Beckenbauer and Thuram (instead of McGrain) in the first reinforcement round. That could have created a Nilton-Passarella-Baresi-Thuram defence with Beckenbauer patrolling midfield and Puskas, Best and somebody like Eusebio ahead. Might have made the difference but I suspect you were better positioned for the win either way.

 

[2mufc0]

Good game @Gio that front line was pretty frightening, but we knew you were a bit constrained with the amount of blocks to fully strengthen other areas . The strategy of picking the best players from the smaller nations really paid off for us, as the draft went on it allowed us to reinforcement strongly each round.

Thanks for the positive feedback @Jim Beam @Joga Bonito @harms. It's probably my favourite team drafted on here. Credit to @Theon too, we finally won one after coming close a few times.

 

[harms]

I felt like we were chasing our tails at the bottom end and we either had to go heavy on the big clubs/countries to compete in the 1st round and quarter finals, or take the strategic path pursued by @harms @Joga Bonito @crappycraperson and @Physiocrat and hope for lucky draws. George Best was a good pick, but he did block both Moore and Figueroa which was a bit of a ball-ache.

Yeah, it's a shame about Figueroa. That American league fecked up a lot with those ore-retirement partnerships.

 

[2mufc0]

Out of curiosity, has a team with Messi won a draft before?

 

[harms]

Out of curiosity, has a team with Messi won a draft before?

I've won one with Cristiano-van Basten-Messi up front (and I didn't really like that team, something just doesn't feel right about CR7 & Messi together, although Ronaldo would probably score 100 goals with Messi next to him).

 

[Gio]

Out of curiosity, has a team with Messi won a draft before?

Think one in an earlier CL draft.

 

[Invictus]

Out of curiosity, has a team with Messi won a draft before?

Might come as a surprise but Messi is actually very successful in drafts, and this is his 7th overall win (8th if we include Coropa League). At the last count, Gio, harms, Moby, MJJ , Cal?, Lord Sinister have all won a tournament with him!

 

[Joga Bonito]

Might come as a surprise but Messi is actually very successful in drafts, and this is his 7th overall win (8th if we include Coropa League). At the last count, Gio, harms, Moby, MJJ , Cal?, Lord Sinister have all won a tournament with him!

Just curious but any idea how di Stefano and Sir Bobby Charlton fare on that count?

 

[Jim Beam]

Just curious but any idea how di Stefano and Sir Bobby Charlton fare on that count?

Now, that is something I would love to know too. Did Di Stefano ever won it? He didn't in recent times as far as I know. Indy won one with Charlton for sure and even then he had to surround him with United legends all around, so that helped a lot.

Both are very underrated imo or very hard to go with them all the way. Eusebio too.

 

[Invictus]

Just curious but any idea how di Stefano and Sir Bobby Charlton fare on that count?

Now, that is something I would love to know too. Did Di Stefano ever won it? He didn't in recent times as far as I know. Indy won one with Charlton for sure and even then he had to surround him with United legends all around, so that helped a lot.

Both are very underrated imo or very hard to go with them all the way. Eusebio too.

Don't think Di Stéfano or Eusébio have ever won a draft, unless there's some obscure old fantasy draft that I'm not aware of. Only GOAT caliber players to never win the whole thing as the furthest either has reached is the final itself. Everyone else has at least a couple — including those who are considered underrated in draft circles like Cruyff, Zico or Puskás. With regard to Di Stéfano in particular, his reputation as an uncompromising on-field dictator who won't have optimal chemistry with others has undoubtedly played a big part in his lack of success as the winning teams are typically stacked with attackers of a similar-ish standard.

Ran a confirmation search for Charlton because I remember him winning at least once, and he has won three (which is quite surprising)!

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-british-irish-fantasy-draft-final-skizzo-pat-vs-mjj.399515/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/sheep-draft-the-final-cutch-vs-kps88.401443/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...d-finale-indnyc-vs-skizzo-pat_mustard.443154/

 

[Joga Bonito]

Don't think Di Stéfano or Eusébio have ever won a draft, unless there's some obscure old fantasy draft that I'm not aware of. Only GOAT caliber players to never win the whole thing as the furthest either has reached is the final itself. Everyone else has at least a couple — including those who are considered underrated in draft circles like Cruyff, Zico or Puskás. With regard to Di Stéfano in particular, his reputation as an uncompromising on-field dictator who won't have optimal chemistry with others has undoubtedly played a big part in his lack of success as the winning teams are typically stacked with attackers of a similar-ish standard.

Ran a confirmation search for Charlton because I remember him winning at least once, and he has won three (which is quite surprising)!

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-british-irish-fantasy-draft-final-skizzo-pat-vs-mjj.399515/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/sheep-draft-the-final-cutch-vs-kps88.401443/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...d-finale-indnyc-vs-skizzo-pat_mustard.443154/

Interesting, cheers.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That could have created a Nilton-Passarella-Baresi-Thuram defence with Beckenbauer patrolling midfield and Puskas, Best and somebody like Eusebio ahead. Might have made the difference but I suspect you were better positioned for the win either way.

That would have been brilliant. With that back line (Pasarella-Baresi looks off though), Der Kaiser in midfield and that forward line (Puskas-Eusebio , think Balu had them in the Managers draft), I'd definitely have voted for that side.

 

[2mufc0]

Might come as a surprise but Messi is actually very successful in drafts, and this is his 7th overall win (8th if we include Coropa League). At the last count, Gio, harms, Moby, MJJ , Cal?, Lord Sinister have all won a tournament with him!

Cheers. I might take on a small project and create a database of draft winners.

 

[Physiocrat]

Cheers. I might take on a small project and create a database of draft winners.

That would be cool. We could then have a never won a draft draft.

 

[Theon]

Well done to you both @Theon and @2mufc0. I was sure from around round 4 in the snake that you were going to win as you had secured the least blocky GOAT attacker and second least blocky GOAT defender, knowing you wouldn't make any mistakes from there, whilst leaving those Brazil and Milan spots free for major reinforcement.

George Best was a good pick, but he did block both Moore and Figueroa which was a bit of a ball-ache. I almost sacrificed leaving the spot open for Maradona/Messi by choosing Beckenbauer and Thuram (instead of McGrain) in the first reinforcement round. That could have created a Nilton-Passarella-Baresi-Thuram defence with Beckenbauer patrolling midfield and Puskas, Best and somebody like Eusebio ahead. Might have made the difference but I suspect you were better positioned for the win either way.

Thanks Gio, good game and great drafting as usual. I think Keane was our most important pick (comparable players like Neeskens or Redondo blocked significantly more) then getting Breitner at round 7 was a bit of a lucky coup. Someone like Blokhin was gold-dust in this draft as well, not just for the lack of blocks but also for balancing out a GOAT heavy side by the end.

Massive face-palm on Bobby Moore playing for Fulham, can't believe I've forgotten that - the whole Moore pick at the end was to block him after you picked Pele.

 

[Theon]

Ironically, if 2mufc/theon got Pele they would never get my vote. One of my favorite teams drafted here.

Thanks Jim.

Interesting on the first part - to me Blokhin / Pele / Messi looks even better than the current version (great though it is). As I wrote in the OP Pele is probably the only striker more complete than Van Basten and it keeps the same mix of technique, physicality, aerial ability and work-rate whilst bringing a bit more in terms of pace and playmaking - Messi / Pele would be outrageous IMO. I don't think its a massive upgrade, but definitely wouldn't see it as a step down.

 

[Raees]

Congrats @2mufc0 @Theon masterful drafting throughout.

Unlucky @Gio looked like you were going to walk this tournament at one stage and wonder if that proved fateful!