Il Fenomeno Draft - QF - Šjor Bepo vs. Enigma_87

With players in their 3 year career peak, who would win?


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Invictus

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Career peak - 3 years. Which means 3 seasons so in a formation picture you will put Gerd Muller(71-74) which means from season 71/72 until the season 73/74, summer tournaments will be accounted on either side so summer of 71 before the season and summer of 74 after the season goes into evaluation.





TEAM ŠJOR BEPO

Tactics


Committing a draft suicide but you can bet im going out with a bang! Team has Di Stefano, Pele, Iniesta, Maldini but all of them can feck off - team is not built around them, team is built around pressing.

Defensive:
High press, high line, offside trap. Both Belodedici and Maldini were absolute masters at offside trap, both great 1v1 defenders and whole team is stacked with absolute monsters when it comes to pressing and defensive qualities.

Offensive:
Don. Not sure what would pay more to see, them wiping the floor with opposition via pressing or to see Di Stefano combining with Iniesta <3
Anyways, team is suited to play both possession game(specially in the final third) and go a bit direct if needed. Goals galore in team as well, from Gemmell, through Robbo all the way to Don and Pele.

Peaks:
Maldini - didnt have much mileage at CB but was already immense, feck he was probably an Elite defender by the time he became a toddler. Reasoning why i went with his version and not the older one that played regularly there and was also brilliant is that i wanted a more athletic, agressive defender given the fact we are playing in a high line and also because older one was more of a leader of defence which i didnt want given the fact Belodedici is the one that runs the backline from a sweeper position.

Pele - probably watched all possible footage from Pele last few days, proper Pele overdose. Decision was pretty simple, just needed to see where he was starting to drop very deep and play almost as a n10 and cut it before. Around 63' you can see him dropping much more and pretty much running the show so to blend him with Don i needed a clear striker and the most beautiful thing with Pele is that even that version had great all-round game so those 2 combining could be epic. Both well known for sharing the limelight with other great players, add little magico in Iniesta who is pretty much the most selfless attacking player ever and you are in for a treat.



TEAM ENIGMA_87

Formation: 4-3-3
Style: Balanced. Pressure the opponent into mistake and look for openings both from the flanks and the middle.

GK: Petr Cech - complete goalkeeper
LB: Bixente Lizarazu - attacking full back - overlaps Dzajic and playing his natural WC winning form.
RB: Berti Vogts - balanced full back.
CB: Alessandro Nesta - complete CB
CB: Vincent Kompany - complete CB
DM: Graeme Souness - defensive midfielder
RCM / B2B: Johan Neeskens - box to box midfielder
LAM: Rivellino - playmaker and attacking midfielder
RWF: Cristiano Ronaldo - In his United form where he became the best player in the world at a time and in his first season at Real where he continued his world class form.
LWF: Dragan Džajić - left winger. One of the best crossers in the game. He has a perfect target in the box in Cristiano and Batistuta.
CF: Gabriel Batistuta - complete center forward

Defense: Marshalled by one of the most complete and defensive beast Nesta, we have a classic more attacking full back in Lizarazu and more conservative on the other side Vogts. Kompany will sit alongside Nesta in his career best form where he was one of the elite defenders in the early 00's and probably PL best being integral part in two winning PL campaigns for City, also being selected as player of the season.

Midfield: Souness will sit at the base and be the more defensive minded midfielder, adding steel and grit to the center of the park. Neeskens will play in his natural B2B role, being one of the most dominant box to box midfielder in the game with his relentless pressing style and desire to always play full throttle. Rivellino will pull the strings in the attacking third being focal figure in terms of creativity from the center and linking midfield with the attack, being the centerpiece, rather than shunted to the left :D.

Attack: A complimentary trio of all conquering force and in his United and early Real incarnation Cristiano, alongside selfless, tireless runner and phenomenal finisher in Batistuta and a more orthodox left winger in Dzajic who will stretch the defence and create openings on the left. Dzajic with his phenomenal crossing will provide ammo for both Batistuta and Cristiano in the box and is a genuine attacking threat with his dribbling, crossing and creative nature.

Key Points:
- Formidable defence
-one of the greatest full backs alongside a GOAT level CB in Nesta and additional formidable, versatile defender in Kompany we have a well oiled unit that is a genuine balanced back four that plays to its strengths. We have plenty of pace on the deck, but also being great in the air. Our CB's will be covered by one of the two most defensively sound B2B midfielders in history in Neeskens and Souness.

- Midfield battle - Obviously Sjor biggest selling point is having Pele and Di Stefano in the side and our way to counter is to saturate the center area where we have Souness and Neeskens to counter and limit the space in the area, but also not allow much space for them or time on the ball.

Attack - Besides Pele and Di Stefano we have one of the greatest wide players in the game in Dzajic and Cristiano, whilst in the same time a pure CF that is build like an ox and could trouble Belodedici and probably Maldini in the center. Cristiano and Dzajic are great in one on one situations and could beat literally anyone on their day.
 

Šjor Bepo

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first of, im glad enigma fecked of from the fraud version of Ronaldo and actually started using a great one.
Second, yes i have two proper GOATs in the team but dont think they are even the biggest difference maker in this game. In drafts people somehow believe a great back 6 can carry the team defensively.....its beyond me. Enigmas front 4 will do very little of the ball when he isnt in possession and given the fact pretty much all his team is built for a direct quick transition football they will have a lot of defending to do as a team.

The most obvious one is Ronaldo, his whole career he has a defensive GOAT up front to partner him because in the words of Gary Neville - "he was never in front of me"....Ferguson moved Hargreaves to the right wing and Rooney/Tevez were covering for Ronaldo on the other side majority of the time, at Madrid Benzema was doing the donkey work. Here he is surrounded with 3 players that will do feck all for him.
Rivelino, Batistuta, Dzajic.....all great players but neither will tear himself apart in the defensive phase so when you have them you have to build a system around that, sacrifice quality for the greater balance of the team.

Nevermind quality, i just cant see how 6 defensively active players can win against 10....you can carry one player, at stretch and depending on the opposition maybe 2 but more then that is football suicide even if you had the base of Rijkaard - Matthaus behind.
 

Enigma_87

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first of, im glad enigma fecked of from the fraud version of Ronaldo and actually started using a great one.
Second, yes i have two proper GOATs in the team but dont think they are even the biggest difference maker in this game. In drafts people somehow believe a great back 6 can carry the team defensively.....its beyond me. Enigmas front 4 will do very little of the ball when he isnt in possession and given the fact pretty much all his team is built for a direct quick transition football they will have a lot of defending to do as a team.

The most obvious one is Ronaldo, his whole career he has a defensive GOAT up front to partner him because in the words of Gary Neville - "he was never in front of me"....Ferguson moved Hargreaves to the right wing and Rooney/Tevez were covering for Ronaldo on the other side majority of the time, at Madrid Benzema was doing the donkey work. Here he is surrounded with 3 players that will do feck all for him.
Rivelino, Batistuta, Dzajic.....all great players but neither will tear himself apart in the defensive phase so when you have them you have to build a system around that, sacrifice quality for the greater balance of the team.

Nevermind quality, i just cant see how 6 defensively active players can win against 10....you can carry one player, at stretch and depending on the opposition maybe 2 but more then that is football suicide even if you had the base of Rijkaard - Matthaus behind.
First of all I definitely disagree about Rivelino offering very little in the defensive phase. He's a player that can balance out the two lines (attacking and midfield) and contribute in both phases and has proven it on many occasions and the biggest ones.

To me the greatest advantage we have is on the flanks where we have a genuine top 5/10 full back and wingers combo of all time.

Vogts has always been thought as someone who doesn't contribute forward in drafts which IMO is very wrong perception of him as he had a very good cross on him and also played behind Kalle and Simonsen who always tend to cut inside.

Having 8,9,10 or 11 players with good work rate isn't what wins you games more often than not. Sure they fit your style(with some exceptions notoriously Gemmell) but doesn't necessarily means match winning advantage.

As good as Maldini Belodedici are in offside traps, Cristiano, Batistuta, Dzajic are exactly the players to use the space behind and break the lines managing to evade their markers.

Cristiano vs Gemmell stoods out as a very good route to goal for us, especially the high line - something he isn't really suited to play in.

Cristiano in this timeframe was one of the most exciting players we as fans witnessed and I'm happy to use this version of him (so I'd imagine you too :) )

I think our plan suits our strenghts pretty well.

We can congest the middle of the park with our midfield (Rivellino, Souness and Neeskens) to protect the back four and we have a fantastic full backs who can also keep it compact and simple not to allow the CB's getting stretched.

Also having Vogts as a newcomer in the team is IMO huge improvement, considering Pele/Di Stefano loved to peel to the left and there is very few apart Vogts(Djalma) to offer the same protection in the defensive phase.
 

Enigma_87

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To reiterate on that note.

Souness, Neeskens and Rivellino were brilliant passers - both short and long. If there is a base that can hold fort and also find the attacker in space with a pin point pass - that's them.



as for as mentality goes in the defensive phase, same can be said about the trio. Neeskens is one that can and will run all day even for two, whilst Souness will rarely allow someone to get past him.

In terms of tactics I think our plan is really simple as we're going to close spaces in the defensive phase and with quick transitions counter the opposition in space and we have both the midfield that protects the defence in a great way and also the forwards (Cristiano, Batistuta and Dzajic) who are ideal fit for quick one two blows.
 

Enigma_87

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to cap it off and present one of the newcomers:

Eastern Europe’s Greatest Ever Winger: Dragan Džajić

Communism prevailed across Eastern Europe for four and a half decades between the end of the Second World War and the fall of the Berlin Wall and had a profound impact upon the football played in the various states – organisationally, stylistically and ideologically.
Many great players were produced during the communist years because of, or in spite of the system (depending on your own perspective), but there was one type of player the coaches from the eastern nations struggled to develop by comparison to their western counterparts: wingers.
From the Eastern Bloc we saw many brilliant keepers like Yashin, exceptional midfield playmakers like Boniek and Dobrin and devastating forwards like Sekularac, Streich and Asparuhov, but high-quality wide players were a much rarer breed. This was no quirk of fate as ideologically the whole notion of wingers, probably the most individualistic role on the pitch, was frowned upon at levels high above a mere sporting one.
Sporting socialism was wholly orientated around the team collective at the expense of individual expression. While Eastern coaches could admire the skills of great wingers from the west like Paco Gento and Jimmy Johnstone, allowing certain players to be elevated above others when it came to acclaim and attention could just never be part of their modus operandi, regardless of their personal views on the subject.
Occasionally players who were just too good to hold back emerged and had to find some sort of middle ground of being creatively inspirational without deviating unnecessarily from the greater good of the collective – Hungary’s Ferenc Bene, Poland’s Grzegorz Lato and the Soviet Union’s Oleg Blokhin all tried gamely to solve this near impossible conundrum. And then there was eastern Europe’s greatest-ever winger who somehow managed to seamlessly blend the twin demands of brilliance and selflessness – Dragan Džajić.


In 1961 a modestly clad youth named wearing enormous peasant-like boots left the tiny village of Ub and made the 100-mile journey to the Yugoslavian capital Belgrade. He called at the Partizan Stadium seeking a trial, but as it was the end of the season he was told to come back another time. Not being likely to afford the fare a second time, the young man made his way to the Red Star stadium where Milanic, the coach of the junior side, saw him in action and offered him a four-year contract on the spot. The youngster was paid £23 for the privilege and Red Star had a player who to this day is still acclaimed as their greatest.
Džajić played on the left wing from his earliest days in the game and seemed to emerge at Red Star almost fully formed with no obvious weaknesses. Contemporary wingers of the time would invariably be skilled, some would be fast, some might be strong, some had more than one usable foot, some could hit devastatingly accurate crosses while some could score regularly themselves. Džajić stood out from his peers as he could do the lot and his game was reinforced by an innate sense for making the right decision at the right time and never being concerned about doing the simple thing if that’s what the situation demanded.

He made his Red Star debut in 1963 having just turned 17 and his first Yugoslavia national team start followed just 12 months later. By 1968 he was one of the most acclaimed attacking players in Europe and was both the top scorer and voted the outstanding player of the 1968 European Nations Cup. During the late 1960s and early 1970s, he was in his prime and Red Star became wholly dependant upon his regular supply of both goals and assists.
There were few better sights in football than Džajić in full flight, tormenting opposing full backs to the point of bewilderment with his near supernatural ball control, then scoring himself or, more commonly, finding a teammate in a better position with an immaculate judged delivery. He was a player who would be adored by modern coaches because for all his skill, his ‘end product’ was so reliable and consistent.
Džajić spent a dozen years with Red Star winning five national titles, four national cups and a Mitropa Cup. At the age of 29, he was permitted to move abroad and joined the ambitious minnows of Bastia where he helped transform their fortunes and turn them into a genuine force in the French game before returning home for one last season at Red Star, his spiritual home.
Yugoslavia nor Eastern Europe as a whole would ever see his likes again.

Playing Position: Left Winger

Regarded by some as the greatest left winger in history, Dragan Dzajic played for most of his career in his relatively closed homeland. Few ever got the chance to see him, until the 1968 European Championships. This proved to be the showcase that the player needed to prove himself against the world's best, and so he did, as Dzajic was the best player at Euro 1968, hosted in Italy.

Dragan Dzajic, whose delicate lob over Gordon Banks had eliminated world champions England in the last four, again appeared to have made the difference for Yugoslavia in Rome.


Vahidin Musemic and Dragan DZajic caused the hosts no end of problems, while 19-year-old debutant Jovan Acimovic typified the impressive composure displayed by a young Yugoslavia side. Their wholehearted display paid off when Trivic played in Dragan Dzajic who beat Dino Zoff for the opening goal.

Twice, Dzajic nearly added to Yugoslavia’s lead, though there was no lack of resilience needed to maintain their lead. Things were looking increasingly concerning for Italy, until Domenghini’s efforts were at last rewarded. After hitting a post in the semi-final from a dead ball, Domenghini made no error in the final, crashing the ball to Ilija Pantelić's left and into the Yugoslavian goal.

There was a visible sense of relief in the stands, which continued through extra time, till the referee blew the final whistle. The two sides were forced to meet again in the replay two days later. Italy won the replay 2-0, lifting the European Championship.


"Style of Play"

He was much loved because of his kind nature and easy-going manner, while on the pitch, he won admiration for being an exceptional left-winger who could both score goals and deliver defense-splitting passes with fantastic precision. The left wing was his territory and it was quite usual for him to take off, leaving all defenders in his wake to deliver an inch-perfect pass into the penalty area.

Dzajic was not withheld to creating, accumulating 424 career goals from the wing. The man could score from just about any angle and many of his successful attempts came direct from corner kicks. The player oozed class and was famous as a dead ball specialist. Gifted with vision and that rare gift, a killer left foot, he was already scoring "Platini-like" free kicks when the French legend was still in shorts.

Speaking on his heavenly performances, Pelé remarked, "Dzajic is the Balkan miracle, a real wizard. I'm just sorry he's not Brazilian because I've never seen such a natural footballer."

Dzajic’s delightful lob in the 1968 Euros against England led to the English press to christen him "The Magic Dragan".
 

Šjor Bepo

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First of all I definitely disagree about Rivelino offering very little in the defensive phase. He's a player that can balance out the two lines (attacking and midfield) and contribute in both phases and has proven it on many occasions and the biggest ones.
Yes he proved he can be a great support player but 99% of contributions for that 70(if you look at his achievements outside that team is very slim) team were in possession, defensive wise Tostao and Pele worked their asses off to balance it out.

To me the greatest advantage we have is on the flanks where we have a genuine top 5/10 full back and wingers combo of all time.
It is if you look the game through individual battles, by far the biggest mismatch is the workrate of both teams, there is no scenario in sports where 6 can win against 10 where the quality is pretty even at best.

Having 8,9,10 or 11 players with good work rate isn't what wins you games more often than not. Sure they fit your style(with some exceptions notoriously Gemmell) but doesn't necessarily means match winning advantage..
Because in real life any manager in the world would be sacked in one month time if he was built a defence - attack team. Its not even that i have Vardy and Mahrez and try to sell the workrate will beat talent. Iniesta, Di Stefano, Pele all are better then any of your players AND unlike your lot will also press and work hard like mad man.

As good as Maldini Belodedici are in offside traps, Cristiano, Batistuta, Dzajic are exactly the players to use the space behind and break the lines managing to evade their markers..
Offside trap is just one part of the game. The quartet will be stopped by stopping them get on the ball via quality press, keeping them away with possession which shouldnt be difficult considering the lack of defensive contributions from your attacking players etc.

Cristiano vs Gemmell stoods out as a very good route to goal for us, especially the high line - something he isn't really suited to play in.
it does i agree, thing is i dont think you set the stage for him to shine as mentioned in my first post.

Cristiano in this timeframe was one of the most exciting players we as fans witnessed and I'm happy to use this version of him (so I'd imagine you too :) )

I think our plan suits our strenghts pretty well.
It does, just doesnt suit your other players which is even more important.

We can congest the middle of the park with our midfield (Rivellino, Souness and Neeskens) to protect the back four and we have a fantastic full backs who can also keep it compact and simple not to allow the CB's getting stretched.
Good old congested midfield <3
Even if by some miracle you manage to for a good block of which im 99,99% sure you cant, a offensive quartet of Chislenko, Di Stefano, Iniesta and Pele is as good as you gonna get. Ability in tight space, willingness to share the ball, players capable of magic, goals, creativity, dribbling - all of them have at least 5 out of 6 with all of them have a great workrate and ability to press when they lose the ball as a group.

Also having Vogts as a newcomer in the team is IMO huge improvement, considering Pele/Di Stefano loved to peel to the left and there is very few apart Vogts(Djalma) to offer the same protection in the defensive phase.
peel to the left....watched pretty much every possible footage of both(Di Stefanos full games, Pele match compilations) and its absolutely amazing how some myths work, both played everywhere on the pitch, specially Di Stefano. By reading stories from some drunk journo you would think he was a left sided Garrincha. Thankfully there is enough footage for a good old eye test.
 

Synco

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Multiquote massacre, I'm sure Enigma will retaliate in kind :drool:

gon be good
 

Enigma_87

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Yes he proved he can be a great support player but 99% of contributions for that 70(if you look at his achievements outside that team is very slim) team were in possession, defensive wise Tostao and Pele worked their asses off to balance it out.
You are using younger Pele and not the one in 70's though where he was deeper. Younger Pele was more of a goalscorer and the one from 59-62 was the one entering his prime. I'm not going to get in very small details but Chislenko, Pele - I doubt it is a meaningless advantage in terms of work rate to decide the tie.

It is if you look the game through individual battles, by far the biggest mismatch is the workrate of both teams, there is no scenario in sports where 6 can win against 10 where the quality is pretty even at best.
Batistuta is one of the most hardworking forwards you can come across, so that voids your point of 6 against 10. Cristiano also from that time wasn't a passenger and was a modern day winger/forward that had some defensive responsibility. I'm not going to paint him as Boniek, but painting Chislenko as Di Stefano is not something I can agree with either.

For Rivellino I've said and seen many things of him and he's not a passenger either.

The mismatch in Gemmell vs Ronaldo isn't only their class but also Gemmell in a high line which means Cristiano will get more opportunities to have a go at him and use the space behind him.

From that time Ronaldo off the mark was like a bolt. He can break any defensive line and give you advantage in numbers.

Because in real life any manager in the world would be sacked in one month time if he was built a defence - attack team. Its not even that i have Vardy and Mahrez and try to sell the workrate will beat talent. Iniesta, Di Stefano, Pele all are better then any of your players AND unlike your lot will also press and work hard like mad man.
I disagree about Pele pressing hard as a mad man in 59-62. Any proof of that?

Brazil of 02 had a fantastic front three that did little to no work rate, they did just fine I think?

Offside trap is just one part of the game. The quartet will be stopped by stopping them get on the ball via quality press, keeping them away with possession which shouldnt be difficult considering the lack of defensive contributions from your attacking players etc.
Thing is, our midfield is very accustomed to work under pressure and get the ball to the desired direction. The midfield trio are also fantastic passers so that notion IMO doesn't work here at all. We don't need long periods of possession but rather getting the ball out to the wings or attacking third with some short and long passes and quick transitions - the midfield and attack is well suited to that.

it does i agree, thing is i dont think you set the stage for him to shine as mentioned in my first post.
Well I disagree with your notion too. I haven't seen Chislenko and Pele press like madmen through the pitch so if you have some video proof I'd be happy to see it, but I don't really see a match decisive gulf in quality in terms of work rate as you paint it.

It does, just doesnt suit your other players which is even more important.
that is again related to the above point.

Good old congested midfield <3
Even if by some miracle you manage to for a good block of which im 99,99% sure you cant, a offensive quartet of Chislenko, Di Stefano, Iniesta and Pele is as good as you gonna get. Ability in tight space, willingness to share the ball, players capable of magic, goals, creativity, dribbling - all of them have at least 5 out of 6 with all of them have a great workrate and ability to press when they lose the ball as a group.
Well yes, and it is very often used in practice. Many teams block the space in front of the defence. It's not really some ground breaking rule and many teams are successful in that. It's always very hard to break down a great midfield with a great defensive base and you often need either additional width or something different than try to bang on that door for 90 mins straight.

Your workrate point is of course valid for some teams that won't have as good midfield/defence as the ones we're putting here, but you are facing some of the most elite midfield units that played the game alongside a great back four that is very fast on the deck and great in the air too.

Matter of fact is that most of the time the different makers in games are the flair players, it's not outrun and outwork the opposition, but historically those that made their games are the elegant players that can beat their man, score a belter outside the box or dribble their way through multiple bodies.

In terms of attacking unit - all that you mentioned goes for our attack too, it's not like they can't dribble, pass, make the right decisions or use their brain to get into favorable situation.

peel to the left....watched pretty much every possible footage of both(Di Stefanos full games, Pele match compilations) and its absolutely amazing how some myths work, both played everywhere on the pitch, specially Di Stefano. By reading stories from some drunk journo you would think he was a left sided Garrincha. Thankfully there is enough footage for a good old eye test.
I'm not saying they are left wingers or something, just that they preferred the left channel and yes there are many compilations and full games to showcase that. Of course they are central players and they roam around, but having two world class full backs on either side would deny them of free space when they try to link through outside channel.

EDIT: on a side note - fantastic song to put in the OP
 

Physiocrat

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How often did Ronaldo play on the right during this 3 year stint? I'm pretty sure he played on the left with Hargreaves on the right which gave him more attacking freedom.
 

Enigma_87

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How often did Ronaldo play on the right during this 3 year stint? I'm pretty sure he played on the left with Hargreaves on the right which gave him more attacking freedom.
Going with transfermarkd


Hargreaves was often sidelined during 07/08. He started around 20 games during the whole season. He didn't feature in the next season and in his first season at Real, Ronaldo played left, right and center.

If we are to pin down which wing he occupied most though it was the right one during that time.

That doesn't mean he's stick to it or hugging the touchline of course.
 

Šjor Bepo

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While i will never buy the dream you are selling how your back 6 can congest the pitch and somehow shut down shop lets pretend we are in a fairytale and it does happen. One thing that kills defensive systems are elite dribblers, once they get past their man whole team has to adjust and system struggles and eventually breaks down. Now, wont focus on Chislenko who tore apart Facchetti, GOAT leftback multiple times with his dribbling ability. Wont focus on Pele who is a tier 1 dribbler, wont even focus on Di Stefano, feck them all. Lets focus on the little magician that often gets a slap on the back of the head in drafts like he is a 10 year old mug that played 2 minutes until the local star didnt join the party after he was later for the 5aside in the school backyard.
One of the best players i ever watched, above tier 1 of dribbling ability. Tight situations? There is no such thing in his wordbook. One twos, creativty, dribbling ability, big game player...even a great 10 man defence would struggle and did struggle in real life but hey, this is draft!
 

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How often did Ronaldo play on the right during this 3 year stint? I'm pretty sure he played on the left with Hargreaves on the right which gave him more attacking freedom.
He played often on the right though Fergie moved him out of there in Europe as you cant trust him defensive wise and he was fine playing anywhere at that point + we had a team full of grafters that can easily cover for him - Hargo, Tevez, Park, Rooney.
 

Enigma_87

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While i will never buy the dream you are selling how your back 6 can congest the pitch and somehow shut down shop lets pretend we are in a fairytale and it does happen. One thing that kills defensive systems are elite dribblers, once they get past their man whole team has to adjust and system struggles and eventually breaks down. Now, wont focus on Chislenko who tore apart Facchetti, GOAT leftback multiple times with his dribbling ability. Wont focus on Pele who is a tier 1 dribbler, wont even focus on Di Stefano, feck them all. Lets focus on the little magician that often gets a slap on the back of the head in drafts like he is a 10 year old mug that played 2 minutes until the local star didnt join the party after he was later for the 5aside in the school backyard.
One of the best players i ever watched, above tier 1 of dribbling ability. Tight situations? There is no such thing in his wordbook. One twos, creativty, dribbling ability, big game player...even a great 10 man defence would struggle and did struggle in real life but hey, this is draft!
Again I don't really buy Chislenko and 59-62 Pele pressing all over the pitch in your scenario, they weren't such players and Pele moved closer to midfield in the mid/late 60's at his peak/late years when he emerged to GOAT status and was a lot more team player to teenager Pele.

Also for Pele it should be 59-61, as it encompassed 3 calendar years (seasons) and at the time they were 59,60,61.

He played often on the right though Fergie moved him out of there in Europe as you cant trust him defensive wise and he was fine playing anywhere at that point + we had a team full of grafters that can easily cover for him - Hargo, Tevez, Park, Rooney.
Park started 8 games in PL and 4 games in CL(was injured in the group stage and up to the QF's and missed the final) in 07/08 and Hargo managed 16 in the league and 5 in CL. In the next season Hargo played as much as Bebe at his peak, whilst Park missed Porto away and Arsenal home.

When Ronaldo scored that winner against Porto which decided the tie, our team featured 36 old Giggs, Berbatov, Rooney and Carrick/Anderson CM combo next to Cristiano.

So whilst as I said Ronaldo isn't Boniek in terms of work rate he featured in some of our most successful campaigns alongside old Giggs, old Scholes and Berbatov(who can hardly call a defensive monster).
 

Šjor Bepo

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You are using younger Pele and not the one in 70's though where he was deeper. Younger Pele was more of a goalscorer and the one from 59-62 was the one entering his prime. I'm not going to get in very small details but Chislenko, Pele - I doubt it is a meaningless advantage in terms of work rate to decide the tie.
So your vision of working hard is only if you drop back to midfield? He was always a willing presser, even more so in younger days which is even naturally for any player not just him.


Batistuta is one of the most hardworking forwards you can come across, so that voids your point of 6 against 10. Cristiano also from that time wasn't a passenger and was a modern day winger/forward that had some defensive responsibility. I'm not going to paint him as Boniek, but painting Chislenko as Di Stefano is not something I can agree with either.
Sure he is....Ronaldo spent his whole career with strikers that worked for him, he wasnt a old Messi level of not working hard but you couldnt trust him to keep the shape and defend for 90 minute. Chislenko from what i read and from what i saw you can. He isnt painted as Di Stefano nor as Seeler but as a support player he can contribute via press and tracking back as thats how he played the game.

For Rivellino I've said and seen many things of him and he's not a passenger either.
Isnt a good defender either nor a willing runner in defensive phase.

The mismatch in Gemmell vs Ronaldo isn't only their class but also Gemmell in a high line which means Cristiano will get more opportunities to have a go at him and use the space behind him.

From that time Ronaldo off the mark was like a bolt. He can break any defensive line and give you advantage in numbers.
As i said multiple times, Ronaldo route is a good one but only if you look just at Ronaldo. Other pieces of the puzzle dont match....
Considering everything(10 vs 6), im perfectly fine with Gemmell pushing up all the time forward. With the amount of possession we both would have and considering the numbers we are defending, id rather have Gemmell up front and force Ronaldo to defend or even better him letting him off which will tie Vogts with him(if not he is a great goal threat for a defender and has great delivery - GOAT header in the middle in Pele) which gives Iniesta even more freedom to do his magic.


Brazil of 02 had a fantastic front three that did little to no work rate, they did just fine I think?
Fantastic, lets take the most overrated team ever and even better, lets take them from the period before 20 years. Last 10 years is where pretty much all teams started to defend and attack as a unit, before you can find them but very rarely and usually those would be the team that would dominate.
Football changes in real life, evolves while we in drafts stayed in mud.


Well I disagree with your notion too. I haven't seen Chislenko and Pele press like madmen through the pitch so if you have some video proof I'd be happy to see it, but I don't really see a match decisive gulf in quality in terms of work rate as you paint it.
Problem is, unless you watch them full game you cant really see it as 99% of compilations dont include the off the ball movements. But you can sort of see it here:
and Chislenko vs Italy, pressed, kept shape until they went up and made a tactical switch where he was mostly staying up for the counter but even then you can see him track back


Well yes, and it is very often used in practice. Many teams block the space in front of the defence. It's not really some ground breaking rule and many teams are successful in that. It's always very hard to break down a great midfield with a great defensive base and you often need either additional width or something different than try to bang on that door for 90 mins straight.
Its a valid practice but you have to have other pieces of the jigsaw as well, you cant just "congest" the midfield and thats it....there are other steps you need to make before that. Football is a simple game but not that simple on the highest level.

Your workrate point is of course valid for some teams that won't have as good midfield/defence as the ones we're putting here, but you are facing some of the most elite midfield units that played the game alongside a great back four that is very fast on the deck and great in the air too.
Elite midfielders that face elite midfielders and attackers....like i said, this isnt the case where you have a major advantage in quality so i need to play catch up via workrate. My best players, in fact best players on the pitch are hard workers while yours are not and thats the difference, biggest one even if i had Buttner as my leftback and not a European Cup winner.

Matter of fact is that most of the time the different makers in games are the flair players, it's not outrun and outwork the opposition, but historically those that made their games are the elegant players that can beat their man, score a belter outside the box or dribble their way through multiple bodies.
Surprise, surprise football evolved. Mind you, flair players are still the difference maker but unless they are willing to work hard as feck they wont achieve nothing in 99% of the cases. Just look at older Messi, on the ball he is still by far the best player in the world yet his Barca team struggles. Not only because of him but he plays a part because while he walks around like he conquered Rome you have great players like De Bruyne, Benzema, Mane and even Ronaldo that will graft.

In terms of attacking unit - all that you mentioned goes for our attack too, it's not like they can't dribble, pass, make the right decisions or use their brain to get into favorable situation.
True though my team defends as a unit while you have a bend and pray tactic.


I'm not saying they are left wingers or something, just that they preferred the left channel and yes there are many compilations and full games to showcase that. Of course they are central players and they roam around, but having two world class full backs on either side would deny them of free space when they try to link through outside channel.
As i said, probably watched every Di Stefano game that is online and cant see it.

EDIT: on a side note - fantastic song to put in the OP
cheers
 

Šjor Bepo

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Again I don't really buy Chislenko and 59-62 Pele pressing all over the pitch in your scenario, they weren't such players and Pele moved closer to midfield in the mid/late 60's at his peak/late years when he emerged to GOAT status and was a lot more team player to teenager Pele.

Also for Pele it should be 59-61, as it encompassed 3 calendar years (seasons) and at the time they were 59,60,61.
Your right to disagree, im just amazed that you think a hardworking player in his "older" age didnt worked hard while he was young, its just mind blowing.


Park started 8 games in PL and 4 games in CL(was injured in the group stage and up to the QF's and missed the final) in 07/08 and Hargo managed 16 in the league and 5 in CL. In the next season Hargo played as much as Bebe at his peak, whilst Park missed Porto away and Arsenal home.

When Ronaldo scored that winner against Porto which decided the tie, our team featured 36 old Giggs, Berbatov, Rooney and Carrick/Anderson CM combo next to Cristiano.

So whilst as I said Ronaldo isn't Boniek in terms of work rate he featured in some of our most successful campaigns alongside old Giggs, old Scholes and Berbatov(who can hardly call a defensive monster).
So when the serious football started Park played, i dont really care who played against Chimbonda and Konchesky.
Porto away is almost like Schalke away from that time, walk in the park for that team and the gulf in class between the teams was fecking huge. You can try to sell the Berbatov thing as much as you want but everyone here watched pretty much Ronaldos whole career so everyone is familiar how he plays, who were his attacking partners and how much did they need to sacrifice so id rather keep the Goebbels PR machine on other areas where people are not that informed :)
 

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Your right to disagree, im just amazed that you think a hardworking player in his "older" age didnt worked hard while he was young, its just mind blowing.
It's not really amazing. Older players get more experience and put more of their work rate to a better use, same goes for also tactical nous. Younger players are generally closer to using their natural skillset and usually are harder to "control". One reason why Jose has always received flack in going for more experienced players.

So when the serious football started Park played, i dont really care who played against Chimbonda and Konchesky.
Porto away is almost like Schalke away from that time, walk in the park for that team and the gulf in class between the teams was fecking huge. You can try to sell the Berbatov thing as much as you want but everyone here watched pretty much Ronaldos whole career so everyone is familiar how he plays, who were his attacking partners and how much did they need to sacrifice so id rather keep the Goebbels PR machine on other areas where people are not that informed :)
I think many have watched United's Ronaldo so agree it's up for the general viewer. On the other note players like Chislenko you have to sell whether or not they fit your general theme, so I think the onus is on you :)

As you have put it in the past a possession/pressing team is dependent on the contribution of all players - Gemmell for one have always played in deeper set ups, so that's one that doesn't really fit in your theme. Chislenko to me is an old fashioned winger from that era so I'm not really buying the defensive monster you are painting him here, maybe @harms can have his input too as he knows him well.

You can't also get more hardworking CF than Batistuta so that 6 vs 10 that you keep banging on is simply not true. :)
 

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Both sides sport too much firepower and it'll probably be a high scoring game. To some extent I can buy the 'all round industry' argument from Sjor esp in a game like this.

Voted for Sjor as I can see a clear template with the side being built to cater and maximise the abilities of Pele, Iniesta and esp di Stefano who should have a good game here. That should give him the edge here I reckon. Hard to vote against the Utd version of Ronaldo though, nice to see him making an appearance.
 

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So your vision of working hard is only if you drop back to midfield? He was always a willing presser, even more so in younger days which is even naturally for any player not just him.
As I said the 6 vs 10 notion is false as you are trying to make my players look like passengers, which is simply not true. There are also plenty of example of Cristiano going for the defender in his United days, let alone someone like Batistuta who never evaded a challenge.

Sure he is....Ronaldo spent his whole career with strikers that worked for him, he wasnt a old Messi level of not working hard but you couldnt trust him to keep the shape and defend for 90 minute. Chislenko from what i read and from what i saw you can. He isnt painted as Di Stefano nor as Seeler but as a support player he can contribute via press and tracking back as thats how he played the game.
Cristiano played in two countered attacking units - at United and Real and did pretty well winning everything under the sun. So that's that. He's well accustomed to exploit the defensive holes and here he's supposed to exactly do that.


As i said multiple times, Ronaldo route is a good one but only if you look just at Ronaldo. Other pieces of the puzzle dont match....
Considering everything(10 vs 6), im perfectly fine with Gemmell pushing up all the time forward. With the amount of possession we both would have and considering the numbers we are defending, id rather have Gemmell up front and force Ronaldo to defend or even better him letting him off which will tie Vogts with him(if not he is a great goal threat for a defender and has great delivery - GOAT header in the middle in Pele) which gives Iniesta even more freedom to do his magic.
not really going to entertain that 10 vs 6 as I said that's a false claim and you can't have it both claims and exclude hard working forward like Batistuta for example.

Fantastic, lets take the most overrated team ever and even better, lets take them from the period before 20 years. Last 10 years is where pretty much all teams started to defend and attack as a unit, before you can find them but very rarely and usually those would be the team that would dominate.
Football changes in real life, evolves while we in drafts stayed in mud.
yet you have 2 players that played circa 2000 when the game supposedly evolved and started to defend and attack as a unit. As I've already said and you in the past - having a pressing unit requires all players to press and move equally well and do it on constant basis year after year to make it working one. In your team probably half of those players didn't really play in possession based systems.

Problem is, unless you watch them full game you cant really see it as 99% of compilations dont include the off the ball movements. But you can sort of see it here:
and Chislenko vs Italy, pressed, kept shape until they went up and made a tactical switch where he was mostly staying up for the counter but even then you can see him track back
hence the notion of 90 mins pressing and chasing our players really falls apart. The pressing unit isn't really when you take the lead - you either commit to that style or not. And from older of your quotes I think you would agree with me?


Its a valid practice but you have to have other pieces of the jigsaw as well, you cant just "congest" the midfield and thats it....there are other steps you need to make before that. Football is a simple game but not that simple on the highest level.
and we have - a great attacking trio well suited to exploit openings on the break and a fantastic back four to keep it tidy.

Elite midfielders that face elite midfielders and attackers....like i said, this isnt the case where you have a major advantage in quality so i need to play catch up via workrate. My best players, in fact best players on the pitch are hard workers while yours are not and thats the difference, biggest one even if i had Buttner as my leftback and not a European Cup winner.
problem is our best player faces the least resistance here and he can make a difference.

Surprise, surprise football evolved. Mind you, flair players are still the difference maker but unless they are willing to work hard as feck they wont achieve nothing in 99% of the cases. Just look at older Messi, on the ball he is still by far the best player in the world yet his Barca team struggles. Not only because of him but he plays a part because while he walks around like he conquered Rome you have great players like De Bruyne, Benzema, Mane and even Ronaldo that will graft.
so we disregard that Barca team missing players like Xavi and Iniesta that made them tick? :)


True though my team defends as a unit while you have a bend and pray tactic.
well not really it's easy to follow and I'd say the exact blueprint of a side that counters a high press approach.
 

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It's not really amazing. Older players get more experience and put more of their work rate to a better use, same goes for also tactical nous. Younger players are generally closer to using their natural skillset and usually are harder to "control". One reason why Jose has always received flack in going for more experienced players.
Thats completely different topic.
Im talking about work-rate not about tactical nous or experiance, reckon you would have to find 1 in a 1000 that didnt work hard as young kid and then "develop" the work-ethic(on the pitch) in later days once he made his name.

I think many have watched United's Ronaldo so agree it's up for the general viewer. On the other note players like Chislenko you have to sell whether or not they fit your general theme, so I think the onus is on you :)
Its well knowm he was a hardworking player, already gave you a video example of it which is more then you did for Rivelino, Batistuta and co.
I dont personally need it as i watched them enough(specially Batistuta) but reckon its fair if you cry out for video evidence that you provide it as well.

As you have put it in the past a possession/pressing team is dependent on the contribution of all players - Gemmell for one have always played in deeper set ups, so that's one that doesn't really fit in your theme. Chislenko to me is an old fashioned winger from that era so I'm not really buying the defensive monster you are painting him here, maybe @harms can have his input too as he knows him well.
Gemmell might played deeper but your team suits him to a tea and he is asked to do things in which he excels.
Already sent a proof for Chislenko but also perfectly happy for harms to give you his views as well.

You can't also get more hardworking CF than Batistuta so that 6 vs 10 that you keep banging on is simply not true. :)
In possession, okay. Out of possession - not even close.
 

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Both sides sport too much firepower and it'll probably be a high scoring game. To some extent I can buy the 'all round industry' argument from Sjor esp in a game like this.

Voted for Sjor as I can see a clear template with the side being built to cater and maximise the abilities of Pele, Iniesta and esp di Stefano who should have a good game here. That should give him the edge here I reckon. Hard to vote against the Utd version of Ronaldo though, nice to see him making an appearance.
I think you are giving players like Rivellino, Souness and Neeskens a zero credit here mate. They are well accustomed to resist high press and especially with our front three our system is tailor made to work on the counter and break the opposition defensive line.

It's shame to see Rivellino yet again swept under the carpet despite given a prominent role, but I guess that's with draft sometimes :)
 

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Thats completely different topic.
Im talking about work-rate not about tactical nous or experiance, reckon you would have to find 1 in a 1000 that didnt work hard as young kid and then "develop" the work-ethic(on the pitch) in later days once he made his name.

Its well knowm he was a hardworking player, already gave you a video example of it which is more then you did for Rivelino, Batistuta and co.
I dont personally need it as i watched them enough(specially Batistuta) but reckon its fair if you cry out for video evidence that you provide it as well.


Gemmell might played deeper but your team suits him to a tea and he is asked to do things in which he excels.
Already sent a proof for Chislenko but also perfectly happy for harms to give you his views as well.

In possession, okay. Out of possession - not even close.
Of all players ever, Cristiano is probably one of the most hard working players to ever play the game when "developing". I mean it's not even a question how someone like him can keep improving, stay fit and play close to 1000 games so far in his career.

anyhow I'll let others chime in as I'm a bit overwhelmed with work, so good luck to you and will try to catch up later :)
 

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As I said the 6 vs 10 notion is false as you are trying to make my players look like passengers, which is simply not true. There are also plenty of example of Cristiano going for the defender in his United days, let alone someone like Batistuta who never evaded a challenge.
They are not passangers like Ozil/Messi(old) but they are not willing runners of the ball in the defensive phase. They will contribute partially but compared to their counter parts the difference is night and day.


Cristiano played in two countered attacking units - at United and Real and did pretty well winning everything under the sun. So that's that. He's well accustomed to exploit the defensive holes and here he's supposed to exactly do that.
Yes he did and thats because those teams where built for him while here he is just one of the shiny toys.


not really going to entertain that 10 vs 6 as I said that's a false claim and you can't have it both claims and exclude hard working forward like Batistuta for example.
i dont see him as a hardworking and i watched shitloads of him. If you think i play this card because of the game you can check previous draft where i had him.


yet you have 2 players that played circa 2000 when the game supposedly evolved and started to defend and attack as a unit. As I've already said and you in the past - having a pressing unit requires all players to press and move equally well and do it on constant basis year after year to make it working one. In your team probably half of those players didn't really play in possession based systems.
its irrelevant when someone played, important is HOW they played and i was picking players carefully that fit the theme. Team is built like a modern team, press as a team, attack like a team so when those players played and in which systems and against which systems they played is irrelevant.
Its important how they played as individuals, how are they asked to play here and if they fit. If you think they are a poor fit thats ok from my side but dont tell me how press and defensive phase cant make a difference because thats an absolute bullshit.


hence the notion of 90 mins pressing and chasing our players really falls apart. The pressing unit isn't really when you take the lead - you either commit to that style or not. And from older of your quotes I think you would agree with me?
So i have to play like Soviets did? :lol: If he was asked to press and chase and he did it, where is the issue? They changed the tactic mid game, so far i dont see a need to change so what would happen? He would refuse to run because 60 years ago he only had to run for 70 minutes rather then 90?
Or would his legs be gone as muscle memory will only keep him running for certain amount of time?


and we have - a great attacking trio well suited to exploit openings on the break and a fantastic back four to keep it tidy.
fantastic, good old defence - attack:drool:



problem is our best player faces the least resistance here and he can make a difference.
Same applies for my best three players, all of them being better then your guy.



so we disregard that Barca team missing players like Xavi and Iniesta that made them tick? :)
teams change you know....Xavi and Iniesta left ages ago, they have a great squad quality wise.....like i said, Messi walking is far from their biggest problem but at highest stage you can feel it.
Great players that work hard > Elite ones that do feck all
Specially in cases where that one Elite one isnt the only one doing so and hasnt have the whole team built around him.




well not really it's easy to follow and I'd say the exact blueprint of a side that counters a high press approach.
Its a well known tactic that to build a great counter-attacking side you only need 6 players behind the ball to defend.
 

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As you have put it in the past a possession/pressing team is dependent on the contribution of all players - Gemmell for one have always played in deeper set ups, so that's one that doesn't really fit in your theme. Chislenko to me is an old fashioned winger from that era so I'm not really buying the defensive monster you are painting him here, maybe @harms can have his input too as he knows him well.
I've already did in different games, he's very energetic and fits well in to any kind of a pressing team, as you can see in @Šjor Bepo's own video.
 

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I've already did in different games, he's very energetic and fits well in to any kind of a pressing team, as you can see in @Šjor Bepo's own video.
I get the work rate, but is his defensive ability his outstanding feature, because there are plenty of energetic players that fit in a pressing team? I mean Sjor is painting him as a second coming of Boniek in terms of work rate a bit :)
 

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I get the work rate, but is his defensive ability his outstanding feature, because there are plenty of energetic players that fit in a pressing team? I mean Sjor is painting him as a second coming of Boniek in terms of work rate a bit :)
:lol: though i did suggest to you that you should use Goebby PR somewhere else.....glad you listen :D
 

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I think you are giving players like Rivellino, Souness and Neeskens a zero credit here mate. They are well accustomed to resist high press and especially with our front three our system is tailor made to work on the counter and break the opposition defensive line.

It's shame to see Rivellino yet again swept under the carpet despite given a prominent role, but I guess that's with draft sometimes :)
Which is why I mentioned the 'all-round industry. Your midfield trio is excellent and hardworking and it's nice to see Rivelino play as the #10 here but I do see a bit of a disconnect between your midfield and attack - with Ronaldo being the roaming forward, Dzajic being the individualistic but excellent wing presence.

Is there anything wrong with it? Nope, definitely not and I guess it better suits you on the counter, but I guess it's subjective and I prefer Sjor's midfield and offense being more cohesive and better in sync, with Di Stefano and Chislenko being more dynamic presences who would bridge midfield and offense better, whilst posing as a more solid unit off the ball.
 
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Enigma_87

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@Šjor Bepo just as an overall note as we're getting in circles indeed:

- to me our team is also full of players that can put a shift in and the notion of 10vs 6 is simply not true.
- I get the work rate angle, but even our front 3 in Dzajic, Ronaldo and Batistuta are proven winners that have the character to do whatever it takes to win a game and have done it throughout their careers.
- our players are very well suited to handle pressure and pressing team so I can't really see it as a detrimental factor.

Either way I'll leave the floor for neutrals to decide :)
 

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I think many have watched United's Ronaldo so agree it's up for the general viewer. On the other note players like Chislenko you have to sell whether or not they fit your general theme, so I think the onus is on you :)

As you have put it in the past a possession/pressing team is dependent on the contribution of all players - Gemmell for one have always played in deeper set ups, so that's one that doesn't really fit in your theme. Chislenko to me is an old fashioned winger from that era so I'm not really buying the defensive monster you are painting him here, maybe @harms can have his input too as he knows him well.
Well from memory Celtic's defence played fairly high up the park as they were hugely dominantly domestically when Gemmell was at Celtic, winning 9 titles in a row, scoring hundreds of goals and generally being on the front foot with an attacking style of play .
 

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Cristiano vs Gemmell stoods out as a very good route to goal for us, especially the high line - something he isn't really suited to play in.
As you have put it in the past a possession/pressing team is dependent on the contribution of all players - Gemmell for one have always played in deeper set ups, so that's one that doesn't really fit in your theme.
Sorry, your last post came while I typed, but can you expand on that?

From the Dead Drafters game (only one I've seen from him), he looked quite at home as an attacking FB in a team with a rather aggressive style. Of course a 60s team, not a 2010 pressing one, but we're always doing projections here.
 

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@Šjor Bepo just as an overall note as we're getting in circles indeed:

- to me our team is also full of players that can put a shift in and the notion of 10vs 6 is simply not true.
- I get the work rate angle, but even our front 3 in Dzajic, Ronaldo and Batistuta are proven winners that have the character to do whatever it takes to win a game and have done it throughout their careers.
- our players are very well suited to handle pressure and pressing team so I can't really see it as a detrimental factor.

Either way I'll leave the floor for neutrals to decide :)
yap, best to let neutrals to contribute as we are going in circles as you said.
 

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How often did Ronaldo play on the right during this 3 year stint? I'm pretty sure he played on the left with Hargreaves on the right which gave him more attacking freedom.
Ronaldo played mostly on the right with Giggs as a LCM/LW and Park filling in now and again.

Hargreaves was used on the right in certain big games and in the CL final but barely featured unless as a CDM.
 

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Batistuta, C.Ronaldo and Rivelino... three guys who expect to be taking all the long-range shots in their sides, no?
 

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Well from memory Celtic's defence played fairly high up the park as they were hugely dominantly domestically when Gemmell was at Celtic, winning 9 titles in a row, scoring hundreds of goals and generally being on the front foot with an attacking style of play .
From the Dead Drafters game (only one I've seen from him), he looked quite at home as an attacking FB in a team with a rather aggressive style. Of course a 60s team, not a 2010 pressing one, but we're always doing projections here.
Agreed. I've said it before but he's the earliest FB that struck me as a truly attacking one when watching old matches. On that note, and taking things off topic admittedly, can anyone recommend a full match that really showcases Facchetti's attacking game?
 

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Agreed. I've said it before but he's the earliest FB that struck me as a truly attacking one when watching old matches. On that note, and taking things off topic admittedly, can anyone recommend a full match that really showcases Facchetti's attacking game?
Against Dortmund IIRC
 

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@harms watched it as well so maybe he can confirm but from memory Facchetti was flying up and down that game