Il Fenomeno Draft - R1 - Himan vs Fortitude

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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vs


Team Himan


Defensive tactic: Stop Maradona and MVB from running this game.
Offensive tactic: Set up for Beckenbauer to run this game.

Attack:

  • Attack features Shearer and Sivori, a typical big man and little man combo.
  • Shearer is excellent at holding the ball up and winning headers (49 out of 206 Newcastle goals were scored with his head).
  • Sivori is a fantastic dribbler and is used to playing alongside a big, physical striker. He's a trickster as well and will be difficult to handle.
  • Both are excellent goal threats at their peak and their scoring stats are very good.

Midfield:

  • Xavi is the creative force here.
  • Bremner adds the workrate to the midfield.
  • Desailly is the enforcer and his peak is from his Milan days.
  • Set up for Beckenbauer to step up when in possession and run the game.

Defence:

  • Led by Beckenbauer.
  • Hulshoff and Bergomi are LCB and RCB in this setup, both great defenders in their own right.
  • Marcelo and Bezsonov operate as wingbacks and act as ball carriers and options for Beckenbauer to spread the play.
  • Schmeichel offers world class support in goal behind them all.


Team Fortitude


It's pretty obvious that with both Maradona and Van Basten in attack, I have two central hubs that provide the distraction that enables various means tp progress the ball and , not only my #9, but also my prolific wing-forwards. My team is not built for brawn across midfield or attack, but rather: incisive actions; excellent levels of ball retention and press resistance as well as the ability to release any open man at any given time with longer passes out to the wings or even through the middle, if it's on.

Defensively, the midfield is not some kind of powerhouse, but aren't shirkers or easily bullied. They will press, are dogged and both Cerezo and Modric read passing lanes well, and perhaps most importantly of all, recycle the ball and turn seemingly innocuous conditions into threatening ones in a minimalist fashion.
 

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Toninho Cerezo:


Toninho Cerezo may or may not be ranked in the top tier of defensive midfielders, but what's indisputable, is that when it comes to skill, talent and the ability to dribble through swathes of players or just generally shield and work himself, and the ball, from a precarious position into a positive one, he is in the very top echelon to have played the role. It's not just the issue of him winning or intercepting the ball, it's the fact that once he has it, he's either going to release it, hurting your team, or make it extremely difficult for you to then win it back off him. He is my dependable hub and a player subtle enough behind Maradona for himannv to probably disregard in terms of giving him the full attention he warrants. Cerezo is not a man you can leave open, but with Maradona ahead, and the fear of him getting the ball, or turning goal-ward with it, there cannot be an impasse - the chain reaction of the opposition anticipating the play and moving toward Maradona invites Cerezo to move further and further forward, at which point, Cerezo, equally adept in combination passing and triangulation, or simply moving into the final third for a shot on goal himself, presents a threat in his own right. There is potential for Cerezo to be the match-winner in a deadlocked game.

Luka Modric:


What you will see constantly in this compilation is the intent and the proactivity that, in and of itself, forces action out of the opposition. Modric is one of the premier ball-retainers and progressive passers since the turn of this century and is no slouch in his own right pitted against more revered names in the draft. He is not a particularly standout figure in my midfield, and the one I will least wax lyrical over, partly because everyone here will have seen his run of seasons in full glory, but also because, in my team, his understated impact is a given whilst at the same time, its effect will keep himmanv's own midfield honest. Is Modric a player his side attempt to hunt, or, not being particularly used to chasing, do they aim to block passing lanes? This matchup is one of the few in the draft that I would expect to have such a mirrored question in midfield. As outlined, my intention will be to press and force the action-reaction chain with the backline pushed right up behind my midfield. Because of this, I expect my midfield to be doing more of the passing and moving towards their goal than they can towards mine.

Maradona's impact
:

I'm not sure Maradona needs any kind of introduction? In possession, he can pass and move and dribble to a level of absolute distraction, but just as pointedly, he is cunning enough to already be working himself into open space or showing towards the ball the moment a turnover is achieved - both Cerezo and Modric have the ability to find him with a prompt, forward pass, or work the space to enable swift progression up the pitch, and from there, he is the best player in the entire draft at carrying the ball straight through opposing midfields and into the final third - this was Maradona's bread and butter, which led to him being the most fouled player in Serie A at its most cynical peak; the most fouled player at a World Cup ('90); the player with most accumulated fouls in a single game (vs. Italy '82) and it is a certainty that Bemner or Desailly (if used in midfield) will concede multiple, high risk fouls in dangerous areas. Maradona went up against a who's who of defenders and defensive midfielders in Serie A, and cumulative fouls against him at International speak for themself - not to be blunt, but in a question of himannv's midfield containing him, with his midfield personnel, the odds are severely stacked against them. These are the Maradona peak years. The years in which he achieved the main body of his feats for the ages. The time in which he was Serie A's top-scorer, from midfield. His threat cannot be understated or played down.

It would be remiss of any opposition not to cater for Maradona
, which generally means anything from attempting to kill supply to him; using a man-marker, or double, or even, triple-teaming, at which point, the opposition are drawn towards my main man and away from whoever it is they are [supposed to be] marking. This is inevitable and undeniable - a player that has to be stopped at all costs - and it is from this panic that my wily forwards can constantly move themselves into open spaces ahead of the little Argentine where, for the most part, they are going to be found, by Maradona himself, or via either Cerezo or Modric off of any basic layoff from Maradona who, as stated, will have prised open some part of the pitch ahead of him.

Kohler's impact:

We will play an extremely high line with one of the best pressing, haranguing man-markers of all time in Jurgen Kohler leading the line, and the charge, backed comfortably by the astute reading of play that Rio at his peak provides. Kohler at his athletic pinnacle is Vidic, Terry and Desailly rolled into one refined package - a better reader of play than any of them, more aggressive, faster and tidier than them all, an absolute terror for attackers and one even his exalted team-mate in this side had ceaseless 50/50 wars with.

There's no point in saying he is Superman (although he's known as one of the Fussballgott's in his homeland), but what he is is extremely difficult to get past, and further to that, his tactical awareness, prescience over the first few yards allied to his powers of recovery, ensure only a handful of strikers in this draft would get wrong side of him and then manage to breakaway, and further, get a shot at goal (or any joy at all) on the other side of him. Not to knock Shearer, but Kohler had better players and strikers than him tearing their hair out. If a refresher is needed:




Although I've picked a perceived 3 year peak, the truth is, Kohler was as consistent as he was brilliant, so even with some of the footage falling outside the allotted apex period, the constant remains his exceptional, well, everything. His pace dropped some in his Dortmund years, but made way for a level of footballing intelligence that shone through during an illustrious career. Kohler is the adept - the one who can switch comfortably between tussling with Shearer and going up against the skillful, dogged and nimble Sivori.

Backline as a whole:

With our pace off the mark, and recovery time on the spin, the backline can play tight to the midfield and, in turn, allow the midfield to be proactive and press forward a good ten yards themselves. Both of my defenders have no problem at all hitting a 10-30 yard pass forward between the lines into my midfield. My fullbacks can both hold position, but their main objective will be to provide width and additional outlet options for the midfield, all three of whom will easily find the passes to enable. Jardine is expected to work his flank and get up, and sometimes ahead of, Bene, who is naturally inclined to find some route to goal or lay the ball off on the inside. Jardine will provide crosses and opportunistic work on the overlap. He has the ability, composure and competence to pick the smartest option and play balls into that vicinity. Jusufi has a multitude of functions in my team. He could play tucked in; he can work wide; he can be the studious anchor that enables Mbappe to focus on reading the defensive line and selecting when and when not to dart to the byline, the box, or involve himself in the passing buildup.

Mbappe & Bene:

Mbappe has proven time and again that as well as working across the defensive line to either side of his CB, he will dart to a back post looking to connect with driven crosses. Across my frontline, every one of my forwards will work a rebound or forage for the easy goal off of a cross - although I have one designated #9 striker in this side, both my attackers are no strangers to the #9 role and play it with enough nous to be a threat that can occupy quality defenders. The importance of which is they can think like out and out strikers inside the box whilst sticking to the parameters of what they're in the team to provide.

If there is any doubt about Mbappe on the left, hopefully this will put your minds to rest:


Nearly all the work in the video is down the left flank, with Mbappe exhibiting what I just mentioned and even providing left-footed crosses.

There is no time when Mbappe can be left open - catching him, even with a starting position 10 yards off, is a big ask. He has the kind of pace that will leave even a quick FB for dead. Staying tight, and trying to prevent the turn is a smarter option for himannv than trying to push on - if he has opted to leave Mbappe open, I believe that's an inlet for me all game long because raw pace, plus Mbappe's intelligent, and often, decisive actions, will force the CB/stopper on his side to shuffle over, which... leaves Van Basten with an isolated CB who then has to worry about Bene moving in from his blind side, determined to affect play.

Last but not least, Bene will be my wildcard out on the right.


An exceptional wing-forward-cum striker, rated constantly in world xi's of the 60's , who will gladly work across the line in pursuit of goals, but is comfortable and adept as a very dangerous wing-forward worthy of a double-team in his own right. The question for himannv with Bene is whether he keeps someone tight to him, or wishes for the gambit of 1-on-1 isolationist runs he will embark upon - I feel himannv is between a rock and a hard place here irrespective of a 3-man, 4-man or even 5-man defence. The 3-man, I will welcome all day as, without that final world class CB/sweeper, I will always have an overload situation because of the weak link; the 4 pushes either Beckenbauer back or Bergomi out to fullback, either of which weakens the CB pairing, giving Van Basten more room to work in, and the 5 compromises his midfield.
 

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hmmanv's team:



Looking at his personnel, I believe this is his optimal set-up. I believe he intends to use a young Beckenbauer in midfield. If he doesn't do that, I feel as though the game has been conceded as Xavi needs a foil as well as the intelligence and technical brilliance of the German to bounce not only the ball, but ideas off of. Wherever Beckenbauer is placed compromises the area he is no longer occupying, for instance, Beckenbauer at AM places Bremner, Xavi and/or Desailly behind him, two of which, as previously mentioned, are liabilities against Maradona. All praise to Xavi, on the ball, but off of it, he hasn't a hope in hell of tackling Maradona, ergo, Beckenbauer has to logically be the man attempting to occupy Maradona. Bremner is a bit of a spare part in a midfield that is going to have to play a staid, retentive game and progress the ball in phases - he's perfect for a back and forth, warring battle against blood and thunder CM's, but he won't get that here, in a game where my players are actively seeking to draw fouls and frustration, something the wee Scot was renowned for. With no actual wingers in his team, the wingbacks are tasked with providing all the width and the outlet runs for the long balls Beckenbauer was renowned for playing. To do that, they have to abandon wing-forwards who, because of his system, I don't need chasing all the way back.

Frankly, his wing-backs getting forward into threatening positions is an excessive amount of work for very little reward as there are too few targets for crosses to find, and very little opportunity for either wide man to repeatedly commit to the attack as any break down of play then has acres of space for 1on1's across the backline, plus Maradona being so multi-functional and opportunistic if no man-marker is put on him has the chance to drift wide and have open space from where to pick up the ball and run with it - something he can be seen doing constantly here, in the game where he scored *that* goal.
. himmanv also drafted Hulshuff, which leads me to believe I will be up against a sweeper. I don't think an extra man at the back aids his team as a collective when there is so much work to be done in the midfield. If you want the best out of Xavi, he needs movement, intelligence, width and most importantly, options ahead of him. Without actual wingers or wide-men, a lot of the work that midfield could provide is narrowed considerably and his team is then too reliant on magic from too few players, especially when opposed by a high line and a possession retentive midfield who will make them work to get the ball back.

As far as I see it, the other option in setting the team he has up is with Desailly in midfield to try and aid in the battle against Maradona. If himannv opts for that, he is severely weakening his backline against Van Basten and also throwing a lesser technical player into a midfield battle where losing the ball would be morally draining as well as a general pain in the arse. Desailly certainly has uses in midfield against certain teams, but mine is not one of them.

himannv has a decision to make in how he handles Van Basten's threat. Desailly or Bergomi are great man-markers and defenders in general. Van Basten is arguably the most complete striker there has ever been: pace, mobility, aerial threat; hold up play; dribbling; long range shooting; improbable accuracy from absurd angles; volleys; acrobatics; near post runs; far post runs; poaching and equally lethal off of either foot. The point in mentioning this is that no matter what tactic is opted for, openings will be made for others in my frontline. Hulshuff has pedigree, but he is a weak link in a battle between all-time greats and will force an over commitment from one or the other of the aforementioned, which, even if Van Basten ends up contained, lends itself to opportunities on whichever CB's side that has been drawn across to aid in the containment.

Beckenbauer's effectiveness is further reduced by having Maradona hovering around his vicinity. The young Beckenbauer was a CM - his most famous two-way tussle was with Charlton in the World Cup final of 1966 . The issue here being, Charlton was a runner and a worker. A battle high in stamina, spirit and nuance, but fairly distributed in terms of dribbling and athleticism. Peak Maradona is a different package entirely, one it takes a full-time marker having a game for the ages to disrupt. As highly rated as Beckenbauer is, this is a bad contest for him, where someone with a much lower centre of gravity, ridiculous strength, balance and will to win that guarantees he will drive and work his man/men, and the space, is coming at him time and time and time again. Even if Beckenbauer keeps up on the defensive end, himannv is effectively reduced to a Xavi Bremner midfield, which looks pretty bereft without Beckenbauer's offensive input. Some of the above can be offset by Sivori dropping into midfield, but that's perfectly fine with me as it further suffocates the supply lines to Shearer some way from threatening positions.



Another aspect I feel should be pointed out with himannv's team is it is predicated on keeping the score at 0-0 or taking the lead itself. At, which point, he could perhaps try and kill the game and turn a 3-5-2 into a 5-4-1. There is no leeway to dramatically alter the side to get back into a game, however. In a scenario where I go a goal up, there is an irony in having my side play the hyper-retentive role where Xavi and Beckenbauer chase. I feel the lack of easy outlets down the flanks really harms his side when trying to get a foothold back into the game from a losing position.

I'm going to assume that the young, pacey, Blackburn era Shearer is his selection. Whilst the additional speed and dynamism is always an asset, Shearer cannot carry a ball at a pace whilst being chased down by centre-backs who were in their prime matching stride with strikers whose game revolved around this kind of game. Balls over the top for him to run on to and connect a shot with is the more viable option, but again, with the lack of runners ready to go on a moments notice, my CB's can play tight to Shearer and read the flight of balls being played into him. It's a big ask for Shearer. Another point to make here is Shearer is not best suited to a tight one or two-touch game with Sivori. Sivori's famed partner. from whom the 'big-small' forward combination gained notoriety for the Old Lady, isn't the best use of Shearer and incredibly difficult to pull off against Kohler and Rio. My high line is also intended to lessen the effect of potential through-balls from Xavi - I would prefer my CB's to read and chase alongside his forwards than have to make decisive, singular actions inside or closer to my own goal.

Sivori is supposed to be his conduit via retention of the ball before playing on to an onrushing wing-back, or a Bremner/Beckenbauer who have ventured up the pitch. Sivori is good in this role, but again, so far from my goal and with so much studiousness required from his own team to keep my midfield and flanks in check, it's extremely difficult to rely on as a concerted tactic, besides which, the stamina to run on and beyond Sivori is a tremendous ask. It was said that my team and hmannv's matched up well, but I personally feel I'm really bad draw for his side because the options he has at his disposal play into my personnel's hands like a glove.

A final comment I have is my team will better thrive in chaos and will actively seek an open game, certain that we're better at handling the fallout than his is. Not least of this, with so many direct, talented dribblers, all driving for decisive actions, I am actively seeking the discombobulation that leads to free-kicks and set plays. It again goes without saying that drawing fouls in goal-scoring free-kick range is a really bad idea for himannv with Maradona on the pitch. On corners, I believe both teams are competent and nothing more; I don't have multiple aerial threats or an overbearing mass of giants to aim for, but neither does he - I don't think aerial play is much of a factor or any avenue to go down for either side.
 

harms

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I really like the use of Xavi here and his combo with Beckenbauer, but Sivori is a bit of a waste in this set up. At his best he was a number 10 with Charles (Shearer is a very good replacement) up front & Boniperti as a wide-ish forward. Here he's forced to go outwide and wait for the ball, while he always required the ball to be passed to his feet and usually quite deeply. In this role you'd expect the passes to be directed to the space in front of him, instead of to his feet.

Fortitude's central core is insane. His fullbacks, who are probably 2 of his weakest players, aren't really exposed here. And Mbappé is one of the few youngsters that had performed at the same outstanding standard on every level, so you can see him performing here as well.
 

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Really like that matchup, two interesting teams.

Imo, @Himannv's defensive setup provides a perfect platform for the creative forces from deep, Beckenbauer and Marcelo. (Can't say anything about about Bezsonov.)

But, considering the solid 3 man defense + Desailly, I may have preferred Xavi in Bremners place, and Sivori in the hole, for more offensive impact. Some may say Xavi and Beckenbauer would get in each other's way, but I don't think so. Although I can understand that the element Bremner brings is regarded useful as well.

@Fortitude's team obviously has an insanely strong attack with Maradona + MVB, midfield, and central defense. Would like to know more about the FBs and Bene. Not sure about Mbappe on the left, as cutting in from the right seems so characteristic for his offensive power. But I'm open to be convinced.

Edit: Scrap the point about Mbappe, just watched some footage and he seems to come from the left way more than my prejudice has it.
 
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Fortitude

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I have to say, Batty was a bit of a lunatic. I mean, this is his team for the 1966:





Not to take anything from Bene, who was a great player and I rate him quite high.
Haha. Let me get some other xi's of the decade together.
 

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I have to say, Batty was a bit of a lunatic.
Yeah, there's this website dedicated to publishing his old World XIs, and even the guy who runs it takes care to point out how "special" his selections can be :D
 

Enigma_87

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I really like the use of Xavi here and his combo with Beckenbauer, but Sivori is a bit of a waste in this set up. At his best he was a number 10 with Charles (Shearer is a very good replacement) up front & Boniperti as a wide-ish forward. Here he's forced to go outwide and wait for the ball, while he always required the ball to be passed to his feet and usually quite deeply. In this role you'd expect the passes to be directed to the space in front of him, instead of to his feet.

Fortitude's central core is insane. His fullbacks, who are probably 2 of his weakest players, aren't really exposed here. And Mbappé is one of the few youngsters that had performed at the same outstanding standard on every level, so you can see him performing here as well.
Can you elaborate on this harms?

From the off Sivori seems like being in his element here as a SS/inside left playmaker with one of the best attacking overlappers in Marcelo.

Shearer also loved playing with a partner and that combo looks pretty tasty, whilst Xavi enjoyed working in tight spaces with someone on his wavelength in Iniesta.

Xavi is a master of playing short passes in someone's feet so really can't see much of an issue on paper..
 

harms

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Some fun omissions from Batty's World XI's:
George Best & Dragan Džajić from 1968 (in fact Best doesn't feature in any of his World XIs)
Pelé from 1970
Cruyff, Neeskens, van Hanegem, Krol... well, there not even one Dutch player in his 1974 World XI :lol:
Blokhin, Figueroa from 1975
Somehow Blokhin appears in the next years XI, but there's no sight of Rensenbrink...
etc.

It's quite hilarious, although a job of a sports journalist was definitely tougher at the time. Sorry for the off-topic post :lol:
 

harms

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Can you elaborate on this harms?

From the off Sivori seems like being in his element here as a SS/inside left playmaker with one of the best attacking overlappers in Marcelo.

Shearer also loved playing with a partner and that combo looks pretty tasty, whilst Xavi enjoyed working in tight spaces with someone on his wavelength in Iniesta.

Xavi is a master of playing short passes in someone's feet so really can't see much of an issue on paper..
Frankly, I was a bit surprised when Sivori got voted as a forward in a public vote, although it's understandable considering his goal record. He was an archetypical trequartista, an even exaggerated version of Diego Maradona, who always dropped deeper to get the ball and moved it forward either via his dribbling runs or via one-twos. I really don't see him as a player who receives passes at full speed with a space in front of him, he always required the ball to be passed to his feet. With this set up that somehow resembles 1972 Germany, you need players like Heynckes/Boniperti/Boniek, not Sivori. He sometimes appeared on the wing, but it was always with the ball — he's not someone who is going to make off-the-ball runs outwide, which is definitely a requirement for this set up.


If both him and Xavi are playing one-twos with each other centrally, with Desailly, Bremner and Beckenbauer joining in... talk about overcrowding limited space. Also, how many 4-men midfield set-ups (or even 5-men, considering that there's Kaiser at the back) have you seen that only had 1 forward up front? It's always two — usually a more traditional number 9 and a free-roaming player like Boniek/Eder who loves to peel outwide. Also, with anyone of Maradona/Sivori/Xavi/Beckenbauer you want as many runners as you can in the final third — simply because the quality of their passing allows them to find even the smallest of gaps. Marcelo & Bessonov won't be a huge goalthreat from through-balls here, with only Shearer offering something close to it... he was quite dangerous in his younger days with more mobility and pace, but I'd still won't say that this is his best quality. And he is literally the only one who is going to provide such runs here.

There's Spain at their worst best, of course, with 4-6-0, but I never considered it to be a good tactical set up, it worked simply because the gap in individual quality between them and other teams was so huge, which is not the case here.
 
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harms

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Also, Xavi is on the record saying (more like repeating Cruyff's ideas, but still) that many footballers get the idea of helping a partner who is in control of the ball wrong — if you want to help, get as far away as possible, not the other way around — and Sivori would naturally gravitate towards the ball. I'm far from a purist that thinks that Xavi/Cruyff's approach is the only working approach in football, but he and Sivori see this issue pretty much completely the opposite way to one another.
 

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Frankly, I was a bit surprised when Sivori got voted as a forward in a public vote, although it's understandable considering his goal record. He was an archetypical trequartista, an even exaggerated version of Diego Maradona, who always dropped deeper to get the ball and moved it forward either via his dribbling runs or via one-twos. I really don't see him as a player who receives passes at full speed with a space in front of him, he always required the ball to be passed to his feet. With this set up that somehow resembles 1972 Germany, you need players like Heynckes/Boniperti/Boniek, not Sivori. He sometimes appeared on the wing, but it was always with the ball — he's not someone who is going to make off-the-ball runs outwide, which is definitely a requirement for this set up.


If both him and Xavi are playing one-twos with each other centrally, with Desailly, Bremner and Beckenbauer joining in... talk about overcrowding limited space. Also, how many 4-men midfield set-ups (or even 5-men, considering that there's Kaiser at the back) have you seen that only had 1 forward up front? It's always two — usually a more traditional number 9 and a free-roaming player like Boniek/Eder who loves to peel outwide. Also, with anyone of Maradona/Sivori/Xavi/Beckenbauer you want as many runners as you can in the final third — simply because the quality of their passing allows them to find even the smallest of gaps. Marcelo & Bessonov won't be a huge goalthreat from through-balls here, with only Shearer offering something close to it... he was quite dangerous in his younger days with more mobility and pace, but I'd still won't say that this is his best quality. And he is literally the only one who is going to provide such runs here.

There's Spain at their worst best, of course, with 4-6-0, but I never considered it to be a good tactical set up, it worked simply because the gap in individual quality between them and other teams was so huge, which is not the case here.
Cheers. I've seen games from him, but didn't really think it could be an issue, as I had the impression of him running through alleys and in space is one of his best qualities as he was very direct player in some cases.

However now that you mentioned it, he did those one two's either by initiating the move, or when the ball was close to him and he was waiting to receive a short pass. A bit like Xavi himself in a sense that he would make himself available in the area where the ball is, but won't go wide on permanent basis waiting for a long pass or actively hover around the defender's shoulder to peel off him or open up space for a pass. Ball was a magnet to him so he naturally would move in direction to the ball rather than away from it.

Bremner and Desailly won't be a problem I think. Both can play a reserved role, especially Desailly - even during that period at Milan.

I agree with the other notion too that Kaiser would thrive playing alongside Xavi, considering how good he was alongside Netzer, but adding another #10 of sorts can spoil the party.

To me Sivori is key here as there is space between Cerezo and Fortitude's CB's to be exploited if the right personnel can do it. Marcelo will no doubt trouble Jardine and can open up spaces. Based on the aforementioned though, not sure if Sivori is the one.
 

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Also, Xavi is on the record saying (more like repeating Cruyff's ideas, but still) that many footballers get the idea of helping a partner who is in control of the ball wrong — if you want to help, get as far away as possible, not the other way around — and Sivori would naturally gravitate towards the ball. I'm far from a purist that thinks that Xavi/Cruyff's approach is the only working approach in football, but he and Sivori see this issue pretty much completely the opposite way to one another.
Not really, it goes both ways. Some like Cruyff(where the original quote came) prefer "help" as with moving away from them as they like to play 1v1 so by moving away from him you are creating space for him to go 1v1 in a more open space. For non dribblers(which would be the case in himan team, more specifically a case for Sivori), helping someone means getting into an open position to receive a pass, preferably close to him.
 

Raees

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@harms That Sivori video is magical.. he's like a deeper lying Puskas.
 

harms

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It’s a bit of shame, as I don’t want to hurt Sivori’s image even further — he’s insanely underrated in terms of his drafting credentials. He’s not as good as Maradona or Messi, granted, but I think he can realistically challenge any other Argentinian player outside of the big 3 for the “best of the rest” label. I’m not counting Moreno and the likes from a pre-footage level, but he stands pretty well alongside the likes of Batistuta, Passarella and Kempes (however hard it is to compare such different players). But... just not for this set up.
 

harms

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Not really, it goes both ways. Some like Cruyff(where the original quote came) prefer "help" as with moving away from them as they like to play 1v1 so by moving away from him you are creating space for him to go 1v1 in a more open space. For non dribblers(which would be the case in himan team, more specifically a case for Sivori), helping someone means getting into an open position to receive a pass, preferably close to him.
Again, the issue is not only Sivori-Xavi, they can work in different set ups, but with an additional defender they don’t have anyone bar Shearer up front who’s going to create space for them. Even with both fullbacks up at the same time (which is very risky), there’s still a lack of runners up front. More so, considering the quality of Desailly and Bergomi and the fact that Beckenbauer played in back 4s most of his life, I don’t see the point in having an additional defender, when you can add a Boniek-esque player up front.
 

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I have to say, Desailly and Bremner in midfield is just custom made for Maradona. I would expect a red card, or two if this game was played out for real. Bremner from losing his cool, and Desailly from a clumsy error or two. Maradona will make both of them chop him down.

And in terms of possession, moving Beckenbauer back, that midfield is bereft of the kind of connective football Xavi is in the team to provide. There's also a considerably reduced goal-scoring threat without Beckenbauer in midfield.

If you're going to use wing-backs, you have to give them the means to get forward, as is, they are going to have to tuck in more than they should to provide passing lanes and start the ball cycling.

Sivori is left with too much work to do and the wrong kind of strike partner to play off of. He needs a combination forward; Shearer is not that guy.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Again, the issue is not only Sivori-Xavi, they can work in different set ups, but with an additional defender they don’t have anyone bar Shearer up front who’s going to create space for them. Even with both fullbacks up at the same time (which is very risky), there’s still a lack of runners up front. More so, considering the quality of Desailly and Bergomi and the fact that Beckenbauer played in back 4s most of his life, I don’t see the point in having an additional defender, when you can add a Boniek-esque player up front.
On that we agree.
 

Physiocrat

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Again, the issue is not only Sivori-Xavi, they can work in different set ups, but with an additional defender they don’t have anyone bar Shearer up front who’s going to create space for them. Even with both fullbacks up at the same time (which is very risky), there’s still a lack of runners up front. More so, considering the quality of Desailly and Bergomi and the fact that Beckenbauer played in back 4s most of his life, I don’t see the point in having an additional defender, when you can add a Boniek-esque player up front.
I think we had this discussion a few days ago but what is the difference between having one attacking full back leaving two CBs and a full back behind shielded by a DM and a back three with two wing-backs that attack at the same time?
 

harms

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I think we had this discussion a few days ago but what is the difference between having one attacking full back leaving two CBs and a full back behind shielded by a DM and a back three with two wing-backs that attack at the same time?
Not sure about back three, but in attacking phase I’d expect Kaiser to be somewhere up as well. And Hullshoff (unlike Bergomi, who is pretty much tailor-made for this) wouldn’t be my first choice for a side back position.
 

Raees

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I have to say, Desailly and Bremner in midfield is just custom made for Maradona. I would expect a red card, or two if this game was played out for real. Bremner from losing his cool, and Desailly from a clumsy error or two. Maradona will make both of them chop him down.

And in terms of possession, moving Beckenbauer back, that midfield is bereft of the kind of connective football Xavi is in the team to provide. There's also a considerably reduced goal-scoring threat without Beckenbauer in midfield.

If you're going to use wing-backs, you have to give them the means to get forward, as is, they are going to have to tuck in more than they should to provide passing lanes and start the ball cycling.

Sivori is left with too much work to do and the wrong kind of strike partner to play off of. He needs a combination forward; Shearer is not that guy.
Kocsis would be a better forward or a Romario..
 

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Again, the issue is not only Sivori-Xavi, they can work in different set ups, but with an additional defender they don’t have anyone bar Shearer up front who’s going to create space for them. Even with both fullbacks up at the same time (which is very risky), there’s still a lack of runners up front. More so, considering the quality of Desailly and Bergomi and the fact that Beckenbauer played in back 4s most of his life, I don’t see the point in having an additional defender, when you can add a Boniek-esque player up front.
My thinking with Sivori was with the following in mind:

1. I needed a smaller player who was quick and who had experience playing alongside a physical striker. As such, I felt his experience playing alongside Charles made this a nice combination.
2. I felt the need to have a dribbler in the attack. I have the elite passer in Xavi, the physical striker in Shearer, and the creative force from deeper with Beckenbauer, but the role of a ball carrier in attack is understated at times and I felt he fits the build and offers that aspect from what I've seen of him.

I do get that you are looking for a runner up front, but with Shearer acting as the perfect target man and focal point, I think what you need is that player who feeds off the focal point, and I think Sivori is capable of doing just that.
 

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I have to say, Desailly and Bremner in midfield is just custom made for Maradona. I would expect a red card, or two if this game was played out for real. Bremner from losing his cool, and Desailly from a clumsy error or two. Maradona will make both of them chop him down.
Disagree. Desailly positioning and physicality along with Bremner grit/engine is a damn good defensive line against Diego. Himan has a problem that there is also Modrić and Cerezo behind which is pretty much perfect to get Diego much-needed space.

Agree on moving Beckenbauer in midfield and don't think this is perfect set up for Shearer (or that he is perfect striker for this set up).
 

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Kocsis would be a better forward or a Romario..
Himannv's just said he wants a physical striker in mind of Sivori being the 'little man' in the partnership, so it does narrow the field quite a bit. I can understand from the POV of what was proven next to the as yet undrafted player, but that Shearer he is referring to is not the Shearer whose first thought is to provide this kind of selfless play - that came after he'd lost his pace and had no real choice but to tussle with CB's.

The Shearer he has wants balls in front of him that he can take in stride for cracks at goal or for it to be teed off for him (rather than the supplier expecting/hoping for any serious interplay to develop). In the famed SOS (*2), the roles were very defined; Shearer thinks more of the goal than his partner (other than manoeuvring himself into optimal positions for goal-scoring opportunities) and interplay. It kind of nulls Sivori as his role then becomes marginalised.
 

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Disagree. Desailly positioning and physicality along with Bremner grit/engine is a damn good defensive line against Diego. Himan has a problem that there is also Modrić and Cerezo behind which is pretty much perfect to get Diego much-needed space.

Agree on moving Beckenbauer in midfield and don't think this is perfect set up for Shearer (or that he is perfect striker for this set up).
It's neither the physicality or the positioning I'd be concerned with, but the timing and the errors when actually going for the ball on Desailly's side. He's absolutely perfect against driving midfielders or those whose centre of gravity is in the ball park of his own, but when you have a ridiculously stocky, dynamic powerhouse who is driving at him, willing him to make the tackles, it's a recipe for cards - the issue being, Desailly may do a number of things perfectly correctly but only needs to slip up once or twice in the 90 for a critical turning point in the game to be established. Do you believe Diego wouldn't make that happen?

There are individual players who did very well against Maradona, even in his prime, but they fit a profile and a temperament. Amongst taller men, I'd be intrigued on who people think could track and run with Diego and not have themselves carded or giving away fouls at critical points and positions on the pitch.

Of his entire set of personnel, if I were to put a man to Maradona it would be Beckenbauer, for his agility, intelligence and the clean, precise nature of his tackling, but it's a full-time job and a problem in itself - I'd definitely be happy with Desailly and/or Bremner up against him because I truly believe he'd get a lot of change out of them. Once on a card - a card I don't believe Beckenbauer would get - they're dead men walking.
 

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Does that ever happen in matches...when we have both fullbacks in opponents box?

The fullbacks in ball flank is the one overlapping whereas the other tends to hang back.

Liverpool and Leicester do it on consistent basis.

It boils down to the LCM and RCM protecting the flanks when they do push up.
 

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Any excuse to post some Diego:


Not only in terms of winning the ball off him, then getting him off you or not having the ball quickly turned back over... it's a challenge, even for more technical midfielders than Desailly.
 

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Not sure about back three, but in attacking phase I’d expect Kaiser to be somewhere up as well. And Hullshoff (unlike Bergomi, who is pretty much tailor-made for this) wouldn’t be my first choice for a side back position.
Ah, Kaiser going forward too would make it a bit shaky although Bremner and Desailly in front of the two CBs is pretty good although Hulsoff going to the left wing isn't ideal.

Nice Sivori vid btw
 

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Does that ever happen in matches...when we have both fullbacks in opponents box?

The fullbacks in ball flank is the one overlapping whereas the other tends to hang back.
Very rarely — but someone like Bielsa prefers to have fullbacks playing like that (his favourite type of goal is when one fullbacks scores from another fullback's pass). Here they have to both bomb forward, otherwise it doesn't work at all.
 

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Very rarely — but someone like Bielsa prefers to have fullbacks playing like that (his favourite type of goal is when one fullbacks scores from another fullback's pass). Here they have to both bomb forward, otherwise it doesn't work at all.
Yes, and it's so risky, and tiring, not only for the wing-backs, but also for the midfield who then have to try and aid the backline who have 1on1's all over the place to deal with, but they can't do that with Maradona looming.
 

harms

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I have to say, Desailly and Bremner in midfield is just custom made for Maradona. I would expect a red card, or two if this game was played out for real. Bremner from losing his cool, and Desailly from a clumsy error or two. Maradona will make both of them chop him down.
Disagree. Desailly positioning and physicality along with Bremner grit/engine is a damn good defensive line against Diego. Himan has a problem that there is also Modrić and Cerezo behind which is pretty much perfect to get Diego much-needed space.
Agree with Jim here. Maradona can humiliate literally anyone, including Rijkaard & Baresi, so in every possible opponent you can find a possible weakness that he's going to exploit, but Desailly & Bremner (with Beckenbauer somewhere in the mix as well) is one of the toughest possible combinations that Maradona can ever face.
 

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I don’t agree with the argument against Desailly and Bremner. I mean, if anyone is stopping Diego, it is this duo + Beckenbauer. Desailly in particular might well be the best suited player to pull it off.

I do get that Diego is hell to deal with for almost any defense, but this is about as good as it gets against him really.
 

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Agree with Jim here. Maradona can humiliate literally anyone, including Rijkaard & Baresi, so in every possible opponent you can find a possible weakness that he's going to exploit, but Desailly & Bremner (with Beckenbauer somewhere in the mix as well) is one of the toughest possible combinations that Maradona can ever face.
Who would you say are the most skillful dribblers Bremner came up against, and how did he do against them? Somewhat ditto for Desailly as a midfielder. I'm not being picky, but it's an incredible ask, and Desailly+Bremner doing it takes so much away from the rest of the midfield. Not just in terms of recycling the ball, but also in terms of the shape

I should point out one of Maradona's fortes is drawing people to him and then passing the ball on and moving into another space for one twos or even shots on goal. With him bouncing passes between the options he has around him, it's yet another notch up in terms of the difficulty.

I think there are a fair amount of players in the draft I'd pit against Maradona in midfield - I know I am being Maradona-centric, but is in specific regard to what's being faced here and the difficulties I believe that particular pairing have in terms of containment, as well as being effective in terms of offensive contributions.
 

harms

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Who would you say are the most skillful dribblers Bremner came up against, and how did he do against them?
George Best, I'd imagine? Not that they've played a lot directly against each other, but Best did include him in his best ever XI.

They were quite fond of each other :lol:


@Gio will probably know more about Scotland's performance at the 1974 World Cup, when they've drawn with Brazil (Rivellino, Jairzinho) & Yugoslavia (Džajić).

The games against AC Milan in 1973 (Rivera) and Netherlands in 1971 (Cruyff) are probably worth looking at. Both were close losses.

Edit: just stumbled upon this :lol:

George Best said:
But my little anecdote tends to sum them up. It concerns Matt Busby who, in a team talk before meeting Leeds, went through each member of their side. It must be remembered that Busby loved Man United but he was also a fiercely patriotic Scot.

Anyway, Matt went like this: 'Gary Sprake, the goalkeeper . . . on his day a nasty piece of work. Right-back, Paul Reaney . . . dirty bastard. Left-back, Terry Cooper. . . . even dirtier bastard. Johnny Giles. . . dirty little bastard. Centre-half, Jack Charlton . . . dirty big bastard. Right-half, wee Billy Bremner . . . good Scottish boy!'
There's some good stuff there:
http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/matches/19650327.htm
 
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Fortitude

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George Best, I'd imagine? Not that they've played a lot directly against each other, but Best did include him in his best ever XI.

They were quite fond of each other :lol:


@Gio will probably know more about Scotland's performance at the 1974 World Cup, when they've drawn with Brazil (Rivellino, Jairzinho) & Yugoslavia (Džajić).

The games against AC Milan in 1973 (Rivera) and Netherlands in 1971 (Cruyff) are probably worth looking at. Both were close losses.

Edit: just stumbled upon this :lol:



There's some good stuff there:
http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/matches/19650327.htm
:lol:

I hope it doesn't come across as though I'm doing down Himannv's team, but there are so many more questions than answers and a lot of forced rigidity because of the personnel - one player intp another position or area of the pitch (hulshuff as a LCB; Desailly in midfield from the technical aspect of this particular midfield battle; Beckenbauer at the back with no wide outlets to hit and a case of severe negligence if he goes upfield from there; Sivori deep leaving Shearer completely isolated) leads to holes in another.

When I did the overlay graphic of his team, I had Hulshuff at sweeper and his best men for each job in the LCB, RCB and DM roles in his side. Even then, I think it's a tough ask for his side to get going in that shape with the personnel, so with it being reduced as mentioned above, it becomes even harder to imagine them getting a proper foothold in the game.