Il Fenomeno Draft - SF - 2mufc0/theon vs Raees

[Šjor Bepo]

Team 2mufc0/theon


DEFENCE

The backline is marshalled by two of the greatest defenders of all time in Gaetano Scirea and Elias Figueroa – both provide world class distribution from the back whilst remaining the gold-standard defensively (in our opinion only Nesta and Baresi match them in a defensive sense). Despite both leading their respective backlines it’s a partnership we see working well, Scirea more of a natural sweeping, covering defender whilst Figueroa offers greater physicality and aerial dominance. At full-back Cole and Amoros provide elite defensive cover and also offer support in the attacking phases - given the quality of Figo we’ve opted again for the defensively minded Chelsea version of Cole who was exceptional defensively with a track record performing against the likes of Ronaldo. Rounding off the defence is Preud'homme who remains the best Belgian keeper of all time and was twice voted the second best goalkeeper in the world by the IFFHS during this period (later winning the award in '94).

MIDFIELD

With the upgraded Voronin the midfield looks monstrous to play-through, filled with technical quality, work-rate and physicality which looks tailor-made to curb the influence of the opposition midfield in possession, with Keane likely to relish the battle with Van Hanegem in particular. The heart of the team remains our two box-to-box machines who we expect to wrestle control of game and provide the platform for our offence - of the two the dynamic Paul Breitner (in his later midfield incarnation, runner-up in the Ballon d'Or, 1-in-2 goal record for Bayern) will be given more freedom to break forward to utilise his goal scoring strengths while Roy Keane sits deeper as a controlling, defensive box-to-box player. One of the best defensive midfielders of all time comes into the team - Valery Voronin has been selected as a dominant defensive presence, he will screen in front of the back-line whilst spraying the ball from deep with his passing range. Whilst dominant off-the ball, all three also possess excellent passing skills and are well suited to playing sharp passes between the lines to feed our attackers - both Keane and in particular Breitner were also known for bursting forward and scoring goals and have the perfect platform to do that here.

ATTACK

Whilst he has various GOAT versions, in attack we have selected the MSN version of Lionel Messi which is probably Messi at his best in terms of complimenting other star attackers and utilises his peak-playmaking whilst maintaining the overall goal threat. In terms of role Messi has the freedom to roam across the pitch and whilst he has the ability to tie Marzolini in knots we also see him capitalising on the space behind that 4-4-2 midfield (lining up at LCM Van Hanegem in particular lacks the mobility to track Messi) and we see him slicing through central areas before feeding his strike partners or running straight at the opposition back line.

Cutting in from the left wing is the explosive Ballon d’Or winner Oleg Blokhin whose speed and incision looks tailor-made for Messi's passing (that cross-field right-to-left pass to Alba was one of the signature characteristics of Messi's playmaking) – with 72 goals in 120 games over this period he offers huge offensive threat whilst also being extremely hard-working and dynamic off the ball (a core facet of Lobanovsky's style). Rounding off our attack is arguably the most complete striker of all time in Marco Van Basten – his combination of physicality, technical quality and aerial ability is probably only bettered by Pele and we see him linking up well with Blokhin in particular with his ability to receive the ball in tight areas and hold off defenders. Ultimately though his main role here is to finish off the chances which are carved out for him by Messi and co – despite the quality of the defence that he is up against it’s hard to bet against Van Basten with this level of service, and we think he probably edges out those centre backs aerially which could prove vital with the deliveries from the likes of Amoros.

THOUGHTS ON THE GAME

1. OPPOSITION THREATS WELL COUNTERED – This looks like a tight game given the quality of the defences on both sides, but overall we feel like we match slightly better against the core opposition threats than Raees with our forwards. On the creative threat which looks primarily focused on the flanks through Dzajic and Figo – 1. Firstly we feel like they are well countered by Amoros and Cole (often underrated given his status as a modern player, but defensively Cole stuck to a task like glue and outside Maldini it’s hard to think of a better defensive shackler - Figo didn’t perform particularly well across the QFs in ’04 / ’06 with Cole probably Englands best performer across the tournaments) 2. Secondly we feel like the crossing threat from Dzajic / Figo is well matched by Figueroa, Scirea and Voronin (who could play centre back himself) which has the right balance of towering aerial ability and defensive positioning to snuff out low crosses. Clearly the biggest goal threat for Raees is Gerd Muller, but he faces non-other than Don Elias who shackled him so well on the biggest stage at in 1974 despite facing a stacked Germany side which went on to win the tournament – obviously like Van Basten at the other end Muller only needs a chance to score so limiting the supply to Muller will be key.

2. BREITNER BREAKING FORWARD - In terms of our attack, we fancy Messi to wreck havoc here slipping behind Van Hanegem who looks overburdened defensively. The less obvious threat however is Breitner breaking through the midfield lines to plunder any knockdowns or lay-offs from Van Basten. It’s worth remembering that Breitner’s goal record in this period was better than Boniek or Figo’s so despite being a midfielder he’s probably as likely to score here as anyone on the park – particularly given how well matched up both strikers are, whereas Breitner faces somewhat less resistance bombing past that two-man midfield.

Spoiler: Player achievements in chosen periods

Michel Preud'homme (88-91) GK- Belgian 1st Division, UEFA Cup Winners Cup, European Super Cup, Belgian Golden Shoe, Belgian GK of the Year x 3.

Gaetano Scirea (79-82) CB - Seria A x 2, Copa Italia, Fifa World Cup 1982, UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament 1980.

Elias Figueroa (74-77) CB - Campeonato Gaúcho (5): 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, Campeonato Brasileiro Série A (2): 1975, 1976, All-Star Team of 1974 FIFA World Cup & Best defense of the tournament,South American Footballer of the Year 1974, 1975, 1976, South American defense of the year 77,75,76,77, Best global defense of the year 74,75,76,77, Bola de Ouro Brazil's Best Player 1976, Bola de Prata Brazil's best defence of the year 74,75,76.

Manuel Amoros (84-87) RB - Ligue 1 1987, Coupe de France 85, EUEFA Euro Champion 1984, Onze d'Argent: 1984, French Player of the Year 1986, FIFA WC All Star Team 1986, FIFA XI 1986.

Ashley Cole (08-11) LB - Premier League 09-10, FA Cup x 3, FA Community Shield 09, UEFA Champions League 11-12, PFA Team of the Year 10-11, UEFA Team of the Year 2010, Chelsea Players Player of the Year x 2, England Player of the Year 2010, Premier League 20 Seasons Awards (1992–93 to 2011–12).

Valery Voronin (64-66) DM – Soviet Footballer of the Year 1964, 1965; Soviet Top league 1965;

Roy Keane (98-01) CM - Premier League: 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, FA Cup: 1998–99, UEFA Champions League 98-99, Intercontinental Cup 1999, PFA Team of the Year 99-00, 00-01, 01-02, PFA Team of the Century: (1907–2007), FAI Senior International Player of the Year: 2001, Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year: 1999, 2000, RTÉ Sports Person of the Year: 1999, FWA Footballer of the Year: 2000, PFA Players' Player of the Year: 2000, ESM Team of the Year: 1999–2000, Premier League 10 Seasons Awards: (1992–93 to 2001–02), Premier League 20 Seasons Awards: (1992–93 to 2011–12).

Paul Breitner (79-82) CM - Bundesliga: 1979–80, 1980–81, DFB-Pokal: 1981–82, kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season:1978–79, 1979–80, 1980–81, 1981–82, 1982–83, Footballer of the Year in Germany: 1981, Ballon d'Or: 1981 (Runner-up), IOC European Footballer of the Season 1980–81, FIFA World Cup All-Time Team, FIFA 100, Bayern Munich All-time XI.

Lionel Messi (14-17) RW - La Liga: 2014–15, 2015–16, 2017–18, Copa del Rey: 2014–15, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18, Supercopa de España: 2016, UEFA Champions League: 2014–15, UEFA Super Cup: 2015, FIFA Club World Cup: 2015, FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2015, FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 2014, European Golden Shoe: 2016–17, 2017–18, Copa América Golden Ball: 2015, UEFA Men's Player of the Year Award: 2015, La Liga Best Player: 2014–15, La Liga Best Forward: 2014–15, 2015–16, Pichichi Trophy: 2016–17, 2017–18, FIFA Club World Cup Silver Ball: 2015, IFFHS World's Best Playmaker: 2015, 2016, 2017, Olimpia de Plata (Argentine Footballer of the Year): 2015, 2016, 2017, FIFA FIFPro World11: 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, UEFA Team of the Year: 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, La Liga Team of the Season: 2014–15, 2015–16, FIFA World Cup Dream Team: 2014, Copa América Dream Team: 2015, 2016, Argentine Football Assn. Team of All Time (published 2015).

Marco van Basten (86-89) CF - KNVB Cup 86, UEFA Cup Winners Cup 86-87, Serie A 87-89, Copa Italia 88, UEFA CL 89-89, 89-90, Euro Supercup 89, Intercontinental Cup 89, UEFA EURO Championship 88, Ballon d'OR 88,89, UEFA Best Player, Ballon d'Or: 1988, 1989, UEFA Best Player of the Year: 1989, European Cup Top Scorer: 1988–89, Serie A Golden Boot: 1989–90, Eredivisie Top Scorer: 1986–87, Bravo Award: 1987, Onze d'Argent: 1987, Onze d'Or: 1988, 1989, IFFHS World’s Best Player: 1988, 1989, World Soccer Player of the Year: 1988, UEFA Euro 1988: Top Scorer and Best Player with 5 goals, UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 1988, FIFA 100, UEFA Golden Jubilee Poll: #4,Italian Football Hall of Fame, UEFA Euro All-time XI (published 2016), A.C. Milan Hall of Fame, IFFHS Legends.

Oleg Blokhin (73-75) – Hardworking wide forward – Soviet Top League 1974, 1975; Soviet Cup 1974; UEFA Cup Winners Cup 1975; UEFA Super Cup 1975; ; Soviet Top League top scorer 1973, 1974, 1975; Ballon d'Or 1974 – 19th, 1975 – 1st

Team Raees

Strategy:

1. High Press...real threat on the counter for them with Blokhin but in Djalma, we have a man who could handle anyone in the history of the game.
2. Man-Marking... Baresi will man-mark MVB (targeting that weak ankle) and Marzolini being a right-footed elite level defensive left back ala Arbeloa will be designated to man-mark Messi.
3. Crossing... Wary of Figueroa's Aerial Prowess, so the crossing has to be very selective from the wide players.. look to get it into the feet of the nimble Muller (who is not the older 1974 version). Doubt anyone from that German side could deliver a better ball than these two wing wizards!
4. Boniek...This is the Polish mad man version who ghosted into attacking areas and was just an incredibly different player to keep track of. A very different prospect to your average silky No.10.. this is a workaholic free roaming midfielder who will pop up anywhere any time. His explosive unpredictability and unorthodox play makes him potent in big matches...
5. Midfield Battle... In Van Hanegem and Souness we have elite operators who possess equal parts skill, desire, creativity and guts... a wonderful combination who will not yield an inch against an equally tireless trio. Dare I say it but in a fight, I'd back my pair of hard men.. they're simply more dominant from a physical perspective and dare I say it, more skilful too..

Questions

1. Does that midfield bring out the best in Messi?

2. How will Voronin deal with the peculiar threat of Boniek.. it isn’t like marking a more obvious central Deep lying player like Albert or Eusébio both of whom were massive ball hogs and invited challenges...

3. Figo in his prime.. is a different proposition to an inexperienced Ronaldo. He’s stronger and much more fluid ball carrier.. not to mention a superior passer and just as dangerous cutting in. Will Cole be able to neuter his peak threat?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@2mufc0 @Theon @Raees good luck

 

[Theon]

@Raees good luck mate.

 

[Raees]

@Raees good luck mate.

And you mate, cracking side you've built there.. tempted to vote for it myself!

 

[Theon]

And you mate, cracking side you've built there.. tempted to vote for it myself!

Ha, we got quite lucky with the way some of the drafting flowed. Getting Breitner round 7 was a big advantage - he’s probably been our most important player in two games (the first one, and this semi).

 

[Jim Beam]

Like the balance in Raees team more then in QF. Also like Boniek role more here.

Teams are not so far away tbf, but theon/2mufc just look like they have more ways to open the defence. On first hand, you could only say this is a far more direct team than most of Messi's, but using MSN version solves even that.

And for "super restrictive draft" as been called at the start, those are some teams.

 

[Physiocrat]

Both sides are astonishingly good. Will wait to see how the discussion plays out before voting.

 

[Raees]

Both sides are astonishingly good. Will wait to see how the discussion plays out before voting.

Not sure it is worth much discussion as it is a bit of an ass kicking I am afraid!

 

[Fortitude]

Man-Marking... Baresi will man-mark MVB (targeting that weak ankle)

 

[Physiocrat]

Not sure it is worth much discussion as it is a bit of an ass kicking I am afraid!

I thought it would be much closer. Boniek as AM is a great call. I'm also not sure whether Theon's side needs a genuine midfield playmaker. Not sure if Breitner is quite enough there. I had him in a midfield three with Overath and Stielike in an old draft and think that had a better blend of creativity.

Also right footed Marzolini on Messi works a treat.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Also right footed Marzolini on Messi works a treat.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

2mufc/theon just too strong for this, will be a good final against gio.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm not saying he can stop him entirely but that he's a good fit. Only Nilton or Maldini would be better

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I'm not saying he can stop him entirely but that he's a good fit. Only Nilton or Maldini would be better

doesnt matter which foot is the strongest, some defend better their "stronger" side some defend better "weaker" one.

 

[Raees]

doesnt matter which foot is the strongest, some defend better their "stronger" side some defend better "weaker" one.

Benitez would disagree. Being able to tackle as well as pass with both feet is why ambidextrous full backs like Maldini, Brehme, Nilton could thrive at left back. Someone like Valencia would struggle with playing on left flank against a Jimmy Johnstone type winger because he would have to try and tackle using outside of his foot.. which in terms of angle and reach for a slide tackle would be impacted in a negative way.

Against an inverted winger, i.e. Messi.. technically is easier for a right footed full back to follow him and make that slide tackle with his stronger foot.

Irrelevant to the game but as a coaching/tactical point it is a valid theory.. just like LVG's left footed CB makes sense albeit it isn't something which needs to be rigidly abided by as there are many negatives of putting a right footed left back i.e. overlaps etc take a big hit.

 

[Physiocrat]

doesnt matter which foot is the strongest, some defend better their "stronger" side some defend better "weaker" one.

True, but left footers tend to be very one footed so won't be great on their right. Who would you think would be the best LB to face Messi?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Benitez would disagree. Being able to tackle as well as pass with both feet is why ambidextrous full backs like Maldini, Brehme, Nilton could thrive at left back. Someone like Valencia would struggle with playing on left flank against a Jimmy Johnstone type winger because he would have to try and tackle using outside of his foot.. which in terms of angle and reach for a slide tackle would be impacted in a negative way.

Against an inverted winger, i.e. Messi.. technically is easier for a right footed full back to follow him and make that slide tackle with his stronger foot.

Irrelevant to the game but as a coaching/tactical point it is a valid theory.. just like LVG's left footed CB makes sense albeit it isn't something which needs to be rigidly abided by as there are many negatives of putting a right footed left back i.e. overlaps etc take a big hit.

True, but left footers tend to be very one footed so won't be great on their right. Who would you think would be the best LB to face Messi?

Benitez would disagree, some would agree...like in everything, there are always 2 sides of the coin. What they do in possession is totally irrelevant to this, we are talking strictly about defending.
You picked most one footed player ever to prove your point, if "wrong footed" fullback is such a great solution why nobody tried it? They tried everything yet i never saw someone putting such a player on them, plenty of top teams have a player that can use both feet and even some like Lahm played there yet it was never tried? Why? Because the wrong foot thing is a myth. There are no rules in defending, some will defend better one side, some will defend the other side.
You pointed out tackles using outside of foot and slide tackles(i mean when your argument is sliding tackles you are already in trouble as that is an absolute last resort in situation where you are most likely already fecked), i can point xy different things and every side will have their arguments but fact is, nobody to my knowledge didnt change a left fullback to put a right footed player there and there is a reason why.

Anyways, fullback will rarely face Messi anyways as he cant follow him inside and leave a gap for a overlapping fullback. In 99% of the cases you see fullbacks playing against fullbacks while midfielders face Messi. This reminded me when we played Bayern at Old Trafford under Moyes and everyone was praising that turd Buttner for a performance against Robben, yet they maybe had one duel in the game and he was playing against Rafinha the whole time.

 

[Raees]

Benitez would disagree, some would agree...like in everything, there are always 2 sides of the coin. What they do in possession is totally irrelevant to this, we are talking strictly about defending.
You picked most one footed player ever to prove your point, if "wrong footed" fullback is such a great solution why nobody tried it? They tried everything yet i never saw someone putting such a player on them, plenty of top teams have a player that can use both feet and even some like Lahm played there yet it was never tried? Why? Because the wrong foot thing is a myth. There are no rules in defending, some will defend better one side, some will defend the other side.
You pointed out tackles using outside of foot and slide tackles(i mean when your argument is sliding tackles you are already in trouble as that is an absolute last resort in situation where you are most likely already fecked), i can point xy different things and every side will have their arguments but fact is, nobody to my knowledge didnt change a left fullback to put a right footed player there and there is a reason why.

Anyways, fullback will rarely face Messi anyways as he cant follow him inside and leave a gap for a overlapping fullback. In 99% of the cases you see fullbacks playing against fullbacks while midfielders face Messi. This reminded me when we played Bayern at Old Trafford under Moyes and everyone was praising that turd Buttner for a performance against Robben, yet they maybe had one duel in the game and he was playing against Rafinha the whole time.

If you play the game you realise Benitez has a point.

The reason no one uses it often is because there’s a lot of downsides to using a wrong footed full back unless he’s got ambidextrous capabilities which as I alluded to is attacking deficiencies and not every game you’re going to be up against an inverted winger. Furthermore if the defender in question is a poor defender period he’s not magically going to utilise that natural defensive advantage anyway. Final point is what if that inverted winger bursts down the line (which Messi and to a larger extent Robben does..) then that 'right-foot' advantage becomes a negative as it would become easier to tackle with your left. So already there are many barriers hindering it as a successful strategy so that is why it is a rarity.

So if you’re not even sure how often you’re up against a inverted winger and there’s tactical downsides to playing a wrong footed full back in terms of clearances down the line and overlaps.. not many are going to choose that option hence why you don’t see it often - doesn’t mean the tackling aspect of it isn’t valid.

Like I said play one game against a left footed inverted winger and you’ll realise it is easier to tackle with your right leg as when they come across you it’s easier to reach for it with your right foot and you have more range in terms of what you can stretch for when making a tackle. It’s a marginal advantage and probably isn’t worth prioritising with all the others negatives I alluded to above.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

If you play the game you realise Benitez has a point.

Never seen a ball in my life, sorry Xavi

The reason no one uses it often is because there’s a lot of downsides to using a wrong footed full back unless he’s got ambidextrous capabilities which as I alluded to is attacking deficiencies and not every game you’re going to be up against an inverted winger. Furthermore if the defender in question is a poor defender period he’s not magically going to utilise that natural defensive advantage anyway. Final point is what if that inverted winger bursts down the line (which Messi and to a larger extent Robben does..) then that 'right-foot' advantage becomes a negative as it would become easier to tackle with your left. So already there are many barriers hindering it as a successful strategy so that is why it is a rarity.

We are talking here specifically about Messi, having the best possible solution on him trumps everything else, specially for teams that cant compete against Barca but even for the best ones, if you stop RW Messi you pretty much stopped the whole team so sacrificing one player in the offence is absolutely nothing compared to what you gaining in return.
As for occasional burst down the line, in case of Messi and Robben as we mentioned both.....never played football in my life but surely you are more focused on stopping the area where he goes 90% of the time and area that is far more dangerous then area where he goes 10% of the time and where you want him to attack you if he attacks you.
Also, there are examples like Lahm who can easily slot in that left side without sacrificing anything, played a WC final against the team that whole attacking concept was pass it to Messi and pray he does something magical yet Lahm stayed on the right.

So if you’re not even sure how often you’re up against a inverted winger and there’s tactical downsides to playing a wrong footed full back in terms of clearances down the line and overlaps.. not many are going to choose that option hence why you don’t see it often - doesn’t mean the tackling aspect of it isn’t valid.

Im talking here specifically for Messi, stopping him shits all over that leftback would do on the offensive front, even if that guy is Marcelo.
I didnt say tackling aspect isnt valid, i just say you can name other aspects on the counter front that are also valid.

 

[harms]

Nothing wrong with Boniek in that role by the way, he'd relish with the amount of space in front of him and 2 width-providing forwards. The only thing that limits him here is the opposition, and that Voronin-Keane-Breitner midfield would be an issue even for Maradona.

 

[2mufc0]

Harsh scoreline but we'll take it, you drafted a great team @Raees.

 

[Raees]

Harsh scoreline but we'll take it, you drafted a great team @Raees.

Nah it’s a well deserved victory for you boys.. going to be a cracker of a final - all the best! Considering the Figo cock up in the first round and also not realising Muller blocked Don Elias.. I am grateful to even reach the Semi's.

 

[Raees]

Never seen a ball in my life, sorry Xavi



We are talking here specifically about Messi, having the best possible solution on him trumps everything else, specially for teams that cant compete against Barca but even for the best ones, if you stop RW Messi you pretty much stopped the whole team so sacrificing one player in the offence is absolutely nothing compared to what you gaining in return.
As for occasional burst down the line, in case of Messi and Robben as we mentioned both.....never played football in my life but surely you are more focused on stopping the area where he goes 90% of the time and area that is far more dangerous then area where he goes 10% of the time and where you want him to attack you if he attacks you.
Also, there are examples like Lahm who can easily slot in that left side without sacrificing anything, played a WC final against the team that whole attacking concept was pass it to Messi and pray he does something magical yet Lahm stayed on the right.



Im talking here specifically for Messi, stopping him shits all over that leftback would do on the offensive front, even if that guy is Marcelo.
I didnt say tackling aspect isnt valid, i just say you can name other aspects on the counter front that are also valid.

Sorry about the condescending tone, its just have had to play full back in games and these nuances might seem silly but they can make a difference. Also for all of Benitez's faults or even someone like LVG, they're tactical masterminds when in their prime and these little technical details, they don't just pluck out of thin air albeit they only work in very specific scenarios.

Lets just take the Lahm example.. hypothetically you're right, he's exactly the sort of full back who would be ideal for Benitez's tactics.

In the 2014 World Cup Final, Argentina played 4-4-2 and Messi had a free role, so playing Lahm at left back would be futile as he was drifting into central areas and roaming and they played Howedes at left back who is right footed anyway. Also Germany had the better side and generally had a dominant philsophy so wouldn't want to radically change that just to combat one opposition player when they've had years of playing with a positive front foot mindset.

Correct - yes Benitez's thinking is focus on where Messi goes 90% of the time, but just because in theory it makes sense... you still need someone who is practically going to be able to take advantage of that tactical point. You can't just stick a Phil Bardsley at left back against Messi and automatically assume that marginal defensive advantage is going to be capitalised.. the full back in question needs to have a tremendous defensive IQ, powers of concentration, the low centre of gravity and agility and still needs great support from the players around him i.e. once Messi keeps roaming more and more away from the wing... he's going to have to be defended against by the CM/CDM's.

Then there is also the question of how key that full back is to your own attack.. for example, taking Marcelo out of left back would be a massive loss to Real as their style of play, build up etc he's a massive factor. Is it worth having a completely disjointed side just to stop a opposition threat even if its Messi when there is no guarantee it will work? All it takes is one loss of concentration and boom.. Messi is off and away, curling it into the top corner.

 

[Fortitude]

Nothing wrong with Boniek in that role by the way, he'd relish with the amount of space in front of him and 2 width-providing forwards. The only thing that limits him here is the opposition, and that Voronin-Keane-Breitner midfield would be an issue even for Maradona.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Sorry about the condescending tone, its just have had to play full back in games and these nuances might seem silly but they can make a difference. Also for all of Benitez's faults or even someone like LVG, they're tactical masterminds when in their prime and these little technical details, they don't just pluck out of thin air albeit they only work in very specific scenarios.

Lets just take the Lahm example.. hypothetically you're right, he's exactly the sort of full back who would be ideal for Benitez's tactics.

In the 2014 World Cup Final, Argentina played 4-4-2 and Messi had a free role, so playing Lahm at left back would be futile as he was drifting into central areas and roaming and they played Howedes at left back who is right footed anyway. Also Germany had the better side and generally had a dominant philsophy so wouldn't want to radically change that just to combat one opposition player when they've had years of playing with a positive front foot mindset.

Correct - yes Benitez's thinking is focus on where Messi goes 90% of the time, but just because in theory it makes sense... you still need someone who is practically going to be able to take advantage of that tactical point. You can't just stick a Phil Bardsley at left back against Messi and automatically assume that marginal defensive advantage is going to be capitalised.. the full back in question needs to have a tremendous defensive IQ, powers of concentration, the low centre of gravity and agility and still needs great support from the players around him i.e. once Messi keeps roaming more and more away from the wing... he's going to have to be defended against by the CM/CDM's.

Then there is also the question of how key that full back is to your own attack.. for example, taking Marcelo out of left back would be a massive loss to Real as their style of play, build up etc he's a massive factor. Is it worth having a completely disjointed side just to stop a opposition threat even if its Messi when there is no guarantee it will work? All it takes is one loss of concentration and boom.. Messi is off and away, curling it into the top corner.

I cant say i know much about Benitez case but LVG wanted left footed centerbacks purely cause of certain elements of possession so his example is a poor one as it had nothing to do with the defensive phase.

Sure, 2014 is relatively poor example as they had Howedes on the left but Lahm faced multiple times Messi right wing for Bayern iirc and never did anyone moved him on Messi and there it was always 433 system and to not go into a irrelevant and pointless debate both teams were about even in quality.

If we are talking from top teams perspective, surely the gap between a starting fullback and a backup fullback isnt from Cafu to Bardsley. It would be more like dont know, Vrsaljko who is a decent/good player instead of F.Luis who was good/great while Juanfran stays on the right. Offensive wise you pay a certain price but if it helps you stop Messi in a situation where that means you have a great chance of getting something from the game, thats a incredibly small price to pay.
Also, from the smaller team perspective same thing applies, and for them its even easier to do it - first they will have little to no attacking so the harm you done in that one little aspect will be minimal, gap between players is even smaller so while there most likely it wont work, in your theory it should give them slightly better odds no matter how small they are and still, nobody does it.

Thing is, Marcelo is probably the best offensive fullback ever and even there you would have a long time to think and decide which gives you the better value in a game - his impact offensive wise or a much better chance to stop Messi. Even the best offensive coaches are very defensive ones and pay more attention and detail to the defensive phase of the game so it wouldnt surprise me if majority would pick a limited Messi and look for attacking exploits elsewhere rather then going with Marcelo. All that, assuming your theory is correct, i strongly disagree obviously.


Your tackling point stands(more sliding one then standing one but okay, lets just say it stands) but there are so many other issues and factors.

• In the modern game, fullbacks more often then not dont play against wingers/side forwards, they play against the opposite fullback if you really have to break down the game to an individual battle
• You dont really tackle a player like Messi, more often then not if you do you are done and he is away. You stop him by putting him under pressure, trying to force him into dead alley and force him into areas where he isnt that dangerous. You go for the tackle when he is surrounded with multiple defenders, when he loses the control of the ball(which tbf is almost never) or as last resort when there is no other solution left.
• As you said, tackling is on your side of the argument. There are certain things that are on the opposite side - players are usually stronger in duel on their "weak" side as you just use that side more to protect the ball so naturally you feel more comfortable on the defensive end there as well. Not sure whats the english term but we call it a "fullbacks dance" which is pretty much a sideways hop/run not sure how to explain it but hopefully you get what i mean - anyways. Its more natural and easier to do in on the "weaker" side so when he attacks you, you are in that stance and it makes it easier to contain the opponent and "force" him or bait him into space you want him to go rather then the opposite.
• another interesting thing are GOATs from the leftback position. Majority of them are right footers and all of them from the time where the direct opponent was a right footed winger and in those eras they actually faced each other unlike today where fullback almost became a winger. That specific debate would be much wider so no point on going there but just thought its interesting.

To summarize, dont think there are any rules when it comes to this. Some will have easier time defending the weaker side, some will defend easier the stronger side. Depends on the individual.

 

[Raees]

I cant say i know much about Benitez case but LVG wanted left footed centerbacks purely cause of certain elements of possession so his example is a poor one as it had nothing to do with the defensive phase.

Sure, 2014 is relatively poor example as they had Howedes on the left but Lahm faced multiple times Messi right wing for Bayern iirc and never did anyone moved him on Messi and there it was always 433 system and to not go into a irrelevant and pointless debate both teams were about even in quality.

If we are talking from top teams perspective, surely the gap between a starting fullback and a backup fullback isnt from Cafu to Bardsley. It would be more like dont know, Vrsaljko who is a decent/good player instead of F.Luis who was good/great while Juanfran stays on the right. Offensive wise you pay a certain price but if it helps you stop Messi in a situation where that means you have a great chance of getting something from the game, thats a incredibly small price to pay.
Also, from the smaller team perspective same thing applies, and for them its even easier to do it - first they will have little to no attacking so the harm you done in that one little aspect will be minimal, gap between players is even smaller so while there most likely it wont work, in your theory it should give them slightly better odds no matter how small they are and still, nobody does it.

Thing is, Marcelo is probably the best offensive fullback ever and even there you would have a long time to think and decide which gives you the better value in a game - his impact offensive wise or a much better chance to stop Messi. Even the best offensive coaches are very defensive ones and pay more attention and detail to the defensive phase of the game so it wouldnt surprise me if majority would pick a limited Messi and look for attacking exploits elsewhere rather then going with Marcelo. All that, assuming your theory is correct, i strongly disagree obviously.


Your tackling point stands(more sliding one then standing one but okay, lets just say it stands) but there are so many other issues and factors.

• In the modern game, fullbacks more often then not dont play against wingers/side forwards, they play against the opposite fullback if you really have to break down the game to an individual battle
• You dont really tackle a player like Messi, more often then not if you do you are done and he is away. You stop him by putting him under pressure, trying to force him into dead alley and force him into areas where he isnt that dangerous. You go for the tackle when he is surrounded with multiple defenders, when he loses the control of the ball(which tbf is almost never) or as last resort when there is no other solution left.
• As you said, tackling is on your side of the argument. There are certain things that are on the opposite side - players are usually stronger in duel on their "weak" side as you just use that side more to protect the ball so naturally you feel more comfortable on the defensive end there as well. Not sure whats the english term but we call it a "fullbacks dance" which is pretty much a sideways hop/run not sure how to explain it but hopefully you get what i mean - anyways. Its more natural and easier to do in on the "weaker" side so when he attacks you, you are in that stance and it makes it easier to contain the opponent and "force" him or bait him into space you want him to go rather then the opposite.
• another interesting thing are GOATs from the leftback position. Majority of them are right footers and all of them from the time where the direct opponent was a right footed winger and in those eras they actually faced each other unlike today where fullback almost became a winger. That specific debate would be much wider so no point on going there but just thought its interesting.

To summarize, dont think there are any rules when it comes to this. Some will have easier time defending the weaker side, some will defend easier the stronger side. Depends on the individual.

To be honest there is not a lot I disagree with in that response. What exactly are we arguing about then?

I guess the only thing we disagree with is that you are saying surely anyone should use that tactic if it is a valid advantage but my argument in my previous post is that there has to be so many other factors you have to consider (even just focusing on defensive ones) plus the fact that even a single lapse of concentration or bad positioning/decision making that any slight advantage you may have gained from making it easier to 'block/slide tackle' an inverted winger will be lost.

So considering how fragile that minor advantage is (and you make a good point that standing tackle wise - it isn't clear cut if there is an advantage) is it really worth scrapping your usual set up?

For me the reason why I mentioned it in my write up is that I have a all-time level defensive minded right footed left back who usually plays in that position plus world class midfielders/CB's supporting him.. so it is worth mentioning as he can actually make use of that slight advantage when it comes to blocks/slide tackles.

That advantage is not really going to be utilised in 99% of games Messi is in.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

To be honest there is not a lot I disagree with in that response. What exactly are we arguing about then?

I guess the only thing we disagree with is that you are saying surely anyone should use that tactic if it is a valid advantage but my argument in my previous post is that there has to be so many other factors you have to consider (even just focusing on defensive ones) plus the fact that even a single lapse of concentration or bad positioning/decision making that any slight advantage you may have gained from making it easier to 'block/slide tackle' an inverted winger will be lost.

So considering how fragile that minor advantage is (and you make a good point that standing tackle wise - it isn't clear cut if there is an advantage) is it really worth scrapping your usual set up?

For me the reason why I mentioned it in my write up is that I have a all-time level defensive minded right footed left back who usually plays in that position plus world class midfielders/CB's supporting him.. so it is worth mentioning as he can actually make use of that slight advantage when it comes to blocks/slide tackles.

That advantage is not really going to be utilised in 99% of games Messi is in.

We disagree as i think a player preferred/natural foot doesnt play a role in defence while you think the opposite

I agree that football at highest level goes into so much details neither of us cant even imagine BUT when teams tried everything against Messi and in all those defensive traps you had so much factors and things that can go against you, surely you would try this one as well if it gives you a certain advantage no matter how small it is or how fragile it is.
Teams surround him with 2, 3 players, he gets man marked by one, sometimes by two players etc. and all those methods are also fragile as feck and they only give you a slightly better chance.

 

[harms]

I didn't even vote against you in that one!

It's really hard to assemble such a combative midfield without sacrificing a lot creatively, but Breitner gives you that needed balance — he's genuinely one of the most threatening creative long passers that I've seen, when you add his goals and dribbling runs to that... and Voronin & Keane were both quite good on the ball as well. And, in the same time, you don't have a number 10 to step on Messi's toes.

 

[Fortitude]

I didn't even vote against you in that one!

It's really hard to assemble such a combative midfield without sacrificing a lot creatively, but Breitner gives you that needed balance — he's genuinely one of the most threatening creative long passers that I've seen, when you add his goals and dribbling runs to that... and Voronin & Keane were both quite good on the ball as well. And, in the same time, you don't have a number 10 to step on Messi's toes.

Agree with what you're saying, which was why I set up my midfield as I did in an attempt to keep Breitner on the backfoot and reduce his time/comfort on the ball.

The fact he wasn't a particular ball hog, and will release as and when he sees anything on ahead of him is hugely beneficial for Messi, as you say, but also pins a rival backline to holding positions over proactive hunting whilst giving the benefit of the doubt that the midfielder can't hit accurate, distanced passes into small pockets of space.

Breitner in midfield is a real annoyance for the combination of assets he brings to a team, no doubt.