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With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Invictus

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Fortitude

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Enigma_87

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Well yeah, he's just the top 3-4 player in the PL team that went on to have the greatest PL season ever dominating in a fashion never seen before, he just ranks second in assists in the league from the fullback position - only KDB being ahead of him. He just reached back to back CL finals, putting in one of the most critical tie turning performances in the CL they went on to win, including the match winning assist against none other than Messi-led Barcelona. He's only hailed as possibly the greatest crosser the league has seen since David Beckham. And the one thing that can be criticised about him which is his 1v1 defensive ability against tricky players is well mitigated in this setup with a 5 at the back formation putting him in his absolute element from where he can pretty much be the deciding factor. And he's 21 years old!

David Alaba had similar, possibly a bit lesser, contribution at a similar age in a weaker league domestically as well as his great showings in the CL and he was hailed as the next Paolo Maldini. Not sure what this guy could have done more and in a setup like this I'd take him ahead of a dozen retired fullbacks given just how insane of a match decider he is. And again, he couldn't be in a better setting here. Back five to provide him the freedom of going forward, a great header of the ball in Seeler up front who wasn't just great in scoring headers but also knocking them down, which is a huge part of Liverpool's attack and how they create chaos in the opposition box, using his crosses. As well as two great wide forwards who will attract defenders giving him all the space he wants to pass/cross the ball into dangerous ares. Heck, his trademark diagonal from right to left that picks out Robertson would make Paul Scholes proud and he can switch play similarly here with Demyanenko being a willing runner on the other side. Literally he has all the tools at his disposal here to actually come out with an outstanding performance even in this company. Would be more reluctant had he been used in a bog standard 4 at the back, where even Klopp sometimes feels a bit worried about his defense and sometimes plays a more defensive option like Gomez/Milner but here Pat's hit the nail at the head. No qualms about him whatsoever.
I don't rate Alaba that high in historical sense either due to not delivering his full potential IMO. He started great but has been in flat curve since he first burst onto the scene.

He's 21, he has played 80 or something games in PL in the second best side in the country in an era where United, Chelsea, Arsenal and basically all apart City underperform.

30 games in CL, where Liverpool were nearly eliminated in the group stage in 18/19 and faced Porto in the SF's.

A year back they had a piss easy group, again Porto in the elimination stage, nearly taken out by Roma conceding 6 goals in the tie and taken apart in the final due to Karius.

Zero international experience as well.

There are plenty of teams with 2 back to back finals with players that looked great for 2-3 years. Take Angloma for example - could play as a full back, wing back, right back and won CL with Marseille and played 2 finals for Valencia and can't remember the last time someone picked him in all time draft.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I don't rate Alaba that high in historical sense either due to not delivering his full potential IMO. He started great but has been in flat curve since he first burst onto the scene.

He's 21, he has played 80 or something games in PL in the second best side in the country in an era where United, Chelsea, Arsenal and basically all apart City underperform.

30 games in CL, where Liverpool were nearly eliminated in the group stage in 18/19 and faced Porto in the SF's.

A year back they had a piss easy group, again Porto in the elimination stage, nearly taken out by Roma conceding 6 goals in the tie and taken apart in the final due to Karius.

Zero international experience as well.

There are plenty of teams with 2 back to back finals with players that looked great for 2-3 years. Take Angloma for example - could play as a full back, wing back, right back and won CL with Marseille and played 2 finals for Valencia and can't remember the last time someone picked him in all time draft.
In fairness I wouldn't have touched him if this draft hadn't been all about getting back to the three year peak concept. In that timeframe he has 77 PL appearances, compared to 85 for Kompany in the PL and 83 games in Serie A for Nesta, to use your CB pairing by way of comparison, which is hardly night and day. In the same vein, while I'm generally quite happy to denigrate Liverpool's recent CL runs, in his three year peak Kompany captained an obscenely expensive City team to two consecutive group stage exits and a 4-1 aggregate loss to Barca in the last 16 in the final year of his peak. Im not saying this to get into some sort of pissing contest or proxy war if we draw each other in the next round, but moreso to point out why I think @Šjor Bepo wanted us to get back to the specified peak in the first place - Kompany has only just retired and we're getting this sepia-tinted account of his peak in comparison with a contemporary player, and the problem is compounded the farther back we go.

Angloma is certainly an example of an underrated player who should appear more, but for me the difference here is that Angloma was a good but unexceptional all-rounder whereas TAA has undoubted weaknesses but also specific strengths that legitimately stand out in an all-time context. How people weigh the relative importance of those strengths and weaknesses is another matter of course.
 
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Himannv

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I think those are all of the managers that still haven't voted. Sorry for a tagging campaign, but this game somehow generation next to nothing neutral discussion and has a very low vote count and I'd like to see a bit more of both with 45 minutes left :)
Honestly, I've struggled to vote in most of these games and I haven't had much time to analyze the peaks of players. Things like TAA vs Gerets of 80-83 had me scratching my head. Just didn't have the time to figure it all out so I've been unable to vote in most games unless the result seems obvious.
 

Šjor Bepo

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In fairness I wouldn't have touched him if this draft hadn't been all about getting back to the three year peak concept. In that timeframe he has 77 PL appearances, compared to 85 for Kompany in the PL and 83 games in Serie A for Nesta, to use your CB pairing by way of comparison, which is hardly night and day. In the same vein, while I'm generally quite happy to denigrate Liverpool's recent CL runs, in his three year peak Kompany captained an obscenely expensive City team to two consecutive group stage exits and a 4-1 aggregate loss to Barca in the last 16 in the final year of his peak. Im not saying this to get into some sort of pissing contest or proxy war if we draw each other in the next round, but moreso to point out why I think @Šjor Bepo wanted us to get back to the specified peak in the first place - Kompany has only just retired and we're getting this sepia-tinted account of his peak in comparison with a contemporary player, and the problem is compounded the farther back we go.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Honestly, I've struggled to vote in most of these games and I haven't had much time to analyze the peaks of players. Things like TAA vs Gerets of 80-83 had me scratching my head. Just didn't have the time to figure it all out so I've been unable to vote in most games unless the result seems obvious.
not an attack nor being sarcastic(this time :D) but im just curious how do you vote usually then? Because in every draft players are judged on a 3 year peak, this time its just became transparent when is that actual peak.
 

Himannv

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not an attack nor being sarcastic(this time :D) but im just curious how do you vote usually then? Because in every draft players are judged on a 3 year peak, this time its just became transparent when is that actual peak.
I’ve been doing it wrong all this time. I’ve been getting a general impression of a player based on available resources and I rate them based on that. After that I figure out if their playing style fits in with the rest of the team and then vote.

The thing with the peak is that if you ask me what Tresor was doing in 1972 I’d have to look it up as I have a better overall impression of the player based on the 1978 and 82 world cups games.
 

Enigma_87

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In fairness I wouldn't have touched him if this draft hadn't been all about getting back to the three year peak concept. In that timeframe he has 77 PL appearances, compared to 85 for Kompany in the PL and 83 games in Serie A for Nesta, to use your CB pairing by way of comparison, which is hardly night and day. In the same vein, while I'm generally quite happy to denigrate Liverpool's recent CL runs, in his three year peak Kompany captained an obscenely expensive City team to two consecutive group stage exits and a 4-1 aggregate loss to Barca in the last 16 in the final year of his peak. Im not saying this to get into some sort of pissing contest or proxy war if we draw each other in the next round, but moreso to point out why I think @Šjor Bepo wanted us to get back to the specified peak in the first place - Kompany has only just retired and we're getting this sepia-tinted account of his peak in comparison with a contemporary player, and the problem is compounded the farther back we go.

Angloma is certainly an example of an underrated player who should appear more, but for me the difference here is that Angloma was a good but unexceptional all-rounder whereas TAA has undoubted weaknesses but also specific strengths that legitimately stand out in an all-time context. How people weigh the relative importance of those strengths and weaknesses is another matter of course.
Didn't want to go too much in details, mate, as I was just explaining my vote, but since we brought it up and the comparisons too, I'll reply to it once again.

First of all on Nesta - Seria A at the time had 18 teams, so that means 4 games less on season basis, which means 12 games less in the time period, which is significant if we look at such period.

TAA started just 18 games in 17/18 season assisting for 1 goal and scoring 1 goal. In the CL his output was the same - 1 goal, 1 assist. Hardly a great output is it?

This year TAA had 1 assist in CL and they were eliminated by Atletico, who are hardly in their best form either, and could've easily decided the tie at home if it wasn't for lot of misses whilst Liverpool were toothless in attack as well.This season is yet to finish too so he isn't even PL champion compared to Kompany for example.

His body of work basically came last year season along with this season PL and 17/18 CL. That's around 60-70 games to base his entire career on thus far. He played in a particular set up(he's just 21) - so it's a question mark whether or not he will adapt to a different set up. Liverpool's gegenpressen and having Klopp aboard means he's getting top class coaching - one of the best in the world (if not the best) and a set up that is generally a team effort that makes players like Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lovren, Ox look better than they are in different teams and under different coaches.

If we compare him to Nesta per say - Nesta played in an era that featured the cream of the crop attackers in history. He faced the most elite strikers and often came on top. 4 times in a row Seria A defender of the year where he contended with the likes of Maldini, Thuram, Cannavaro and many more. EURO team of the tournament, UEFA team of the year 3 years straight, ESM team of the year - and this is at the time when this award generally counted for something.

When you look at players like Nesta you know that level achieved in that timeframe is not flash in the pan. 35 years old Nesta came against peak of his powers Messi that scored 73 in the course of a season. That Milan led defence kept it cool at home achieving 0-0 draw and in the return leg, he denied him again and again and sometimes even went toe to toe with him on pace. Yes 35 years old Nesta.

With Kompany - again you have the benefit of hindsight. He won the PL under different managers, captained the side as you said, was voted best defender and PL best player in one of those years and hardly you can say it was undeserved. He has played 600 games in his career so despite just retiring you know what you are getting and most likely he would've played a lot more if he wasn't marred with injuries.

Both Nesta and Kompany had also international acclaim and NT careers that you can rely on (not so much with Kompany, but 2018 he played in every minute in the knock out phase and still SF is pretty good for Belguim).

The context is also whereas Liverpool manage to overcame Barcelona in that tie, they did get themselves into a position that they should've been eliminated after the first game when Dembele, Messi and Suarez missed clear cut chances to even put them on double figures.

When you put TAA in a lineup that faces what harms/Joga put he's a glaring weakness. He features against players that are generally in the top 20 of their positions and at the height of their powers. Realistically it's tough to compare TAA in a different setup to gegenpressen on the back of 50-60 games if we could cope with that pressure and being more attacking full back we really can't exempt him from defensive duties, especially when coming up against a top class LW in Rensenbrink ilk. He just doesn't have the same body of work that other players that you compared have to fall back on and one of those 3 seasons he even hardly featured in PL, whilst this one isn't even over yet.

To me knowing a player full career is a big big bonus and much easier to evaluate how he would fare in imaginary set up, as it shows his versatility, his general ability - all his weaknesses and whether or not he can be consistently good in different set up against different type of opposition.

And btw I'm not saying all that because we can meet further in the draft. I'd be saying it if harms went through and it was matter of a single vote :)
 

harms

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Didn't want to go too much in details, mate, as I was just explaining my vote, but since we brought it up and the comparisons too, I'll reply to it once again.
Wait, you were explaining your vote for a team with TAA in it by (quite constructively) downplaying his achievements?
 

Enigma_87

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Wait, you were explaining your vote for a team with TAA in it by (quite constructively) downplaying his achievements?
I explained why TAA for me was his glaring weakness and why it had me on the fence initially. If Pat had someone like Kaltz or Gerets I'd voted for him on the spot because of that core (Seeler, Zico, Cruyff, Tardelli and Redondo).

With TAA though and the lack of top dog at CB I had to look into further details like Bossis, GK comparison to make a decision and shade it for him. If he didn't have Yashin on goal or Bossis/McGrath were in opposite teams I'd probably have voted for you.

To me, if he can fix that right flank situation and keep that core he's the favorite in the draft IMO.