Completely open borders are pure fantasy for a long long time yet.
Immigrants
- Thread starter Sky1981
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Surely somebody would formulate their points before forming an opinion?
I dunno, I like to weigh up both sides before I choose my points.
They weren't fantasy in Western Europe for a while. Who have the big donors to Brexit been and what have their motives been?
I think you’ll find governments set requirements.
Thread asks for opinions on immigration. I’m very pro immigration.
In a totally free market capitalist society i don't think anyone can really complain too much about immigration other than possible strains on some utilities. But in a social democracy with a welfare system it can become a real problem.
People can bang on and on about identity politics etc, but it's all BS. The truth is if you want a more socialist system in current western democracies then you most likely going to be more pro immigration and if you don't you'll be anti immigration. And when people do vote in a way that doesn't fit that pattern, it is far more likely to do with concern over lack of resources (ie strain on schools, policing and NHS etc) than that of race or nationality etc, hence we saw a lot of traditional Labour strong holds voting for Brexit.
From a leftist perspective it's absolutely imperative to convince everyone immigration concerns are largely driven by ignorance and prejudice, rather than economic and social concerns.
People can bang on and on about identity politics etc, but it's all BS. The truth is if you want a more socialist system in current western democracies then you most likely going to be more pro immigration and if you don't you'll be anti immigration. And when people do vote in a way that doesn't fit that pattern, it is far more likely to do with concern over lack of resources (ie strain on schools, policing and NHS etc) than that of race or nationality etc, hence we saw a lot of traditional Labour strong holds voting for Brexit.
From a leftist perspective it's absolutely imperative to convince everyone immigration concerns are largely driven by ignorance and prejudice, rather than economic and social concerns.
As long as it's legal, I'm fine with it.
Build that wall!
I think that you are fundamentally wrong, I'm surprised to say it that way because the idea is seducing but it's still wrong.
Borders come from people and they exists because people care about people and about themselves, obviously. When you ask yourself why borders exists you have to immediately think about shelter, food, community, society, rules and taboos, these are all people oriented concerns. From that point you have to consider what is a workable community/society, in terms of size, Humans can't travel or communicate far without tools, so a workable society is relatively small in terms of size and superficy.
Now, we also need to acknowledge the fact that technology has allowed more and more contact between societies and the increase contact reduced the amount of borders, most of our countries were divided in far smaller territories, that had their own sovereignties and their own rules, these borders became obsolete when traveling became easier, when societal peculiarities became less obvious and that process is continuing today. So while the more we are in contact, the less we need borders, we still need borders because we are different and we are different because the planet has not always been an open world for humans, we need to be patient and take it step by step, we will eventually get to a point where borders are totally useless but today we are not similar enough to do it.
Just think about this, I speak english but who in here speaks french?
EU freedom of movement isn't completely open borders; when you're moving to a new country you have to prove you're working etc, and the countries you've moved to can have reasons for kicking you out if you aren't complying with the terms of EU freedom of movement. Plus there are often custom checks going between certain EU countries.
It would require some sort of supranational system that allows borders to be open in the first place, which is a long ways off imo.
People all have the same basic needs, all of them without exception. All you are talking about is the denial of that to others whilst you could share.
I'm not talking about today, you are right that it will take time but it is the only logical step forward that we can all take. This planet's resources are being used up in the name of the greed of a few, why wait too long?
Of course we have to expect people to support themselves but we should still maintain a welfare state for those who cannot.
From UK, parents not from UK. So please define my native language? I wasn’t born in the country my parents came from. I speak more than 1 language.
Is it true that we are seeing 'caravans' more in the news post that tweet?Did you mean to reply to a different post? Was just pointing out that despite freedom of movement we don't technically speaking have open borders in Western Europe, even if we're relatively close to it.
Some tribes are pioneers they develop the land and create cultures and civilisations.
Other tribes don't bother with the pioneering - they just go and steal it.
Other tribes don't bother with the pioneering - they just go and steal it.
You did say this didn't you?
We have Freedom of Movement of people within the UK to other countries within the EU and reciprocate, we have a single market with no trade tariffs, if that's not as close as you can have to open borders while still remaining a sovereign country I don't know what it is.
I think I basically agreed with you but added that we should expect people who can to support themselves.
No, you are just mixing things and making assumptions on things I didn't even mention. Borders have an utility, they allow people to live efficiently in society by creating jurisdictions that's what I'm telling you, I carefully avoided the part where people will abuse the fundamental use of a defined territory because you already mentioned an example that allows to share a lot with border, the EU. I agree with the idea that we need to share more and more, that greed and selfishness should be made more difficult but that's a different subject to the usefulness of borders. Fundamentally you just have to think about this, in order to share we need to communicate, which language are we going to use in Paulhac and Cork?
Yes, was just pointing out that while it's very, very close to open borders it isn't quite exactly the same, insofar as the conditions of me living in France as a UK citizen are different to those of me living in the UK.
I mean if you moved from one English speaking country to another it's easier than if you moved between countries that speak different languages.
I fully agree that immigrants should try to integrate into society but not that it should be compulsory. As long as they are law-abiding citizens then it's not a major problem although desirable.
Having emigrated to France from the UK, I could not imagine not integrating into french society, or not speaking french but living as a french person (albeit with a slight accent).
There are many different nationalities I know who have moved to France, but the ones who have the most difficulty and the least desire to integrate are the British.
No, I'm sorry, you just seemed to bat off my whole post without addressing it. Of course there's a balance to be found.
I batted it off because you reduced borders to greed, that's why you are fundamentally wrong, you completely ignored the fundamental use of borders.
Well that's because we believe in the welfare state
more, while in France you are still entitled to medical care though. It just gets charged back to reciprocating countries. Yes, it's pretty close.We're not going to agree. Your version of borders is to protect the resources of the people who got there first. Mine is that some borders keep other sets of borders to a lower value so that a few can profit. Tell me you want as much of that to continue and I'll understand.
Hmm.
If he emigrated to France and worked here he would pay into the french system so it would be exactly the same and the medical care would be provided by France and not charged back to the UK.Well that's because we believe in the welfare state
Honestly, I don't get you because you keep talking about money and profit and act as if I was doing it too. I'm talking about life in community, rules, taboos and languages. Even if money didn't exist we would still have these differences and these differences are local, we would still have different jurisdictions and therefore borders.We're not going to agree. Your version of borders is to protect the resources of the people who got there first. Mine is that some borders keep other sets of borders to a lower value so that a few can profit. Tell me you want as much of that to continue and I'll understand.
The only difference would be if you were a criminal or a burden on the country, other than following french laws and regulations there would be no difference (at least until March next year).
Some jobs aren't available.
You mean rich people who are self funded, so they don't need to integrate? I'd say most people who have a desire to work will go out of their way to learn the language.
Pointing out that there are relatively open borders within the EU is giving an example of where several states are moving to combine into one, but that one would still have borders around it. You could have cited Germany or Italy in the same way. Countries come and countries go, such is history.
There are both types, self-funded and people who need to work, the British will tend to set themselves up as self-employed so they don't have to integrate as much as others. Even so even the self-funded ones from countries such as Dutch, Belgian, Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish etc will all make more attempts to speak the language and partake in the community than the British. Some British will but the majority won't.
No, I know you don't get me but although you mentioned language before and community norms I think now adding taboos must mean you are talking about difference. I'm not personally frightened of difference but i realise it is a big fear of a lot of people. But of course we all want to share the same community rules, laws and I'm struggling to think of areas in the world that do not share the same laws, basically. I talk to a fair few migrants on their trip though Europe, there's not a one of them I've met that hasn't spoken English at least as well as I have during a conversation, not a one of them that doesn't speak at least three or four languages including their own. French and/or German too. They are an amazing people on the whole. Taboos, yes I know we have a few and that we will have to whip them into newcomers as quickly as possible. Now, your other objections?
Yes. Italy wasn't even a country up until recent times. I forget when exactly but more towards the middle then the beginning of sorry edited, last century.
You know what job he does?
It was the biscuit guy what done it.
Off topic I stopped in Bari last year, airbnb, guys who let us in had no English at all. Hardly anyone had round there really. There was a notice on the wall in English though, what to do in a fire and so on, and 'If you hear lots of neighbours arguing loudly with each other do not be alarmed, they're not really fighting, it's just normal here'. Beautiful place, lovely people.
We were in Bari last year too, we stayed in a B&B that had it's oddities too but it's at least the second time we've been there and we'll go again. The very South could almost be another country. We find that most people here under say 30 speak English and mostly fluently. It's us old fogies that struggle but we all get by and the very oldest generation here speak a different dialect altogether!
It worked for a while because those countries were similar in economic advancement. If you open all borders then a mass migration will occur from the poorest countries in the world to the richest. This is completely unsustainable in any wealthy and democratic country.
As @Raoul said, you would need some sort of new world order and global state with relative economic equity existing between all composite parts of that state.