Individual Brilliance vs Pattern of play

Buster15

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Nobody at the club cares about being number 1. We have Solksjear in charge. It’s as clear as that. I don’t know why you are so optimistic :)

Probability makes sure you have football structure and managers like Pep in charge. Possibility and gambling is exactly what we do best.
Did not realise I was being optimistic and that was pretty clear from my comments.
But I am not disagreeing with you. If it happens, it will be because of the failures of the opposition.
 

Bebestation

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Nobody at the club cares about being number 1. We have Solksjear in charge. It’s as clear as that. I don’t know why you are so optimistic :)

Probability makes sure you have football structure and managers like Pep in charge. Possibility and gambling is exactly what we do best.
It's because United are not a club that want to win one title every 5 years every time we chop and change our manager and gambled on it right.

United want long term success. That's why our club in particular more than City and Chelsea for example spend alot of time working on our Youngsters breaking in to our first team.

Ole may not be the manager that gives us this quick success alot of you fans are itching and craving for like some drug addicts - yet what he is doing is very useful for our long term ability and stability to be a successful club that other clubs find it hard to take over.

If you cant see that just in the last month where Ole got rid of Lingard and Rojo whilst giving debuts to Shoretire and Amad then that's fine. That was just in one month - you can extrapolate his work over his 2 years with ease but you cant obviously see the work he did just last month since you can only see the results :angel:

We may miss out on quick instant success and lose some matches but Ole has improved the structure of Manchester United and will continue to do so.
 

Berbasbullet

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Did not realise I was being optimistic and that was pretty clear from my comments.
But I am not disagreeing with you. If it happens, it will be because of the failures of the opposition.
Brilliant! So even if Ole improves us ten fold and wins the league it’s because everyone else is awful.
 
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Mr.Ridiculous__

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:lol: well that's exactly the case with Internet forums isn't it? You "type a shit out" listing arguments which support your opinion.
If you think throwing youtube videos is the way to discuss football, then fair enough but I'm not even getting into the debate.
You will probably find a video showing Tom Cleverly passing skills, Antonio Valencia left foot magic and De Gea coming of his line compilation. It doesn't mean it happens regularly so means exactly nothing.
You don't even need to go that far, let me ask you - how do you rate Martial? He must be one of our most important players, here's a video of his amazing skills:
Video posted on the same day as the video you provided, so I guess it's as good as any.
Off topic. Martial was good for us last season and he still shows it in bits and pieces.

Ofcourse compilations are not the way to go, but they are actually the closest thing to the actual matches.

What have we here from you? Snarky comments based on non facts. Watch the games mate.
 

harms

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In which part of football history, a team without individual brilliance bring success to the club?
There were a few teams where a team cohesion and system elevated them very significantly — even though every successful team would have individually brilliant players.

So I won't use the likes of Pep's Barcelona or Netherlands-74, but a couple of examples of teams where the system had a clear prevalence over player's individual skills:
1. Ajax-1995. It had some brilliant individuals (I'm a big fan of Litmanen, they've had young Davids & Seedorf and old Rijkaard there), but when you compare Litmanen to all-time great number 10s like Maradona/Zico/Platini/Zidane you'll see a clear gap in talent. He was flanked with Finidi George and Marc Overmars — again, hardly all-time great attackers, and up front they've had an interchangeable pair of Ronald de Boer (not even a striker originally) & 18 years old Kluivert. When you look at this set up, you won't expect an all-time great team, but that side played absolutely magnificent football:
Overmars - R. de Boer - George
Litmanen
Davids (22 y.o.) - Seedorf (19 y.o.)
Rijkaard (33 y.o.)
F. de Boer - Blind - Reiziger
van der Sar
In a few years — between 1998 and 2000, when all of those young footballers would reach their peak, Netherlands would have a squad stacked with world-class players, but at the moment those were mostly unknown youngsters.

2. Any Lobanovsky's team. He usually had one world-class player per generation and a bunch of good/very good ones, but his teams played brilliant football and often outplayed teams filled with much more talented individuals. He really had only 2 all-time greats playing for him throughout 3 very successful decades (Oleg Blokhin & Sheva), but Igor Belanov is a good case for Lobanovsky's influence — he had won Ballon d'Or in 1986 and he is probably the least talented player to ever receive the award (and I actually like him). 1986 Cup Winner's Cup final; 1988 Euros semi-final (USSR vs Italy)... the level of performance is mind-blowing. It's a perfect example of a well-built machine that elevates even average (on an all-time scale) players to insane heights.

So yeah, those are the most extreme cases. And then there are tons of examples of systems that had elevated world-class players to an even higher level — compare Pep's Barcelona to everything that came after him (although when they've had the Neymar-Suarez-Messi trio their individual quality and chemistry was so good that no system was needed).

Ole certainly has a system and those who say that he doesn't are, well, simply wrong. But he's not a very shrewd tactician that would be able to build a system that balances out our entire play (defensive & offensive one) and negates the obvious weak points that we have as a collective, and it's hard to imagine him suddenly learning that ability on the way.
 

cyberman

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'Patterns of play' is the wrong phrase to describe what we are missing. We lack a consistent game plan. We lack a game plan that looks like it is both well coached and well carried out. We lack a game plan that, in my opinion, is exciting. We struggle to dominate any game for 90 minutes, no matter the opposition.

In terms of pattern of play (in games we can't counter, those games are self explanatory), we clearly try to create overloads out wide and either cross the ball or cut it back to the edge of the box to stretch the opposition. 2 v 1 situations out wide is our 'thing', little coming through the middle directly, for the most part. Once we have it out wide, we either pass it to Bruno/another CM centrally, who will play it to the other side, or will try to feed it into the striker and run off him. It's just not really that good for the most part. What I would like to see is more movement, quicker interplay, better runs in behind with intent on getting the ball or as a decoy. '3rd man running', as it is often called, which City do magnificently. I see none of this from us apart from the odd rare occasion, even then it doesn't feel like it is done by design.

Hell, even the ability to take a man on has completely disappeared from our attackers. This is the worst I have ever seen Martial, and that's saying something because I've been really critical of him under Jose.
I just dont see it this way. Just because we dont play like City doesnt mean how we play is deficient. Liverpool didnt even resemble a City side and dominated the league last year.
Our front play is good enough imo, Rashford and Bruno are 2 of the best goal scorers in their position in world football with Shaw being the outstanding attacking LB in the league this year imo, its the defence thats the issue. The top scorers in the league being better at scoring more goals just isnt the answer.
 

Borys

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So what is pattern of play then? can you give me examples of numerous goals scored by a team that you say that is pattern of play?

Moyes teams cross alot, that is their pattern of play though. Its not individual brilliance is it?
I don't think it's the goal itself, it's more a way how teams move the ball, create space for fullbacks to overlap, or islolate defenders to challenge them 1v1. There are some teams that do it very well (City, Leipzig), there are some which football is based on it rather than individual brilliance (Leicester, Leeds, Brighton) and there are teams who mostly rely on individual brilliance and have those moments of good play. I'd say we fall into the latter category, for multiple reasons really but I think this team has much more potential than it's showing.

Good football in terms of "patterns of play" or whatever we call it doesn't prevent from losing games, it's something you add on top of individual brilliance to make the team play better. I think we have those moments, but far from regular enough to call us well-drilled team in that department.
There is no clear style of play? Counter attack is a style of play btw. Getting crosses is a style of play as well.

If they are not, no team has a pattern of play then.
But we are not a counter attacking team. Just because we are good at it doesn't mean it's our "style of play" or that we don't dominate the ball in most games - not necessarily because we want to, but also because the opposition is happy to sit back and that's where we seem to rely on individuals to bail us out. Which is not wrong at all, but I feel we are a bit too reliant on it this season.
 

Bebestation

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There were a few teams where a team cohesion and system elevated them very significantly — even though every successful team would have individually brilliant players.

So I won't use the likes of Pep's Barcelona or Netherlands-74, but a couple of examples of teams where the system had a clear prevalence over player's individual skills:
1. Ajax-1995. It had some brilliant individuals (I'm a big fan of Litmanen, they've had young Davids & Seedorf and old Rijkaard there), but when you compare Litmanen to all-time great number 10s like Maradona/Zico/Platini/Zidane you'll see a clear gap in talent. He was flanked with Finidi George and Marc Overmars — again, hardly all-time great attackers, and up front they've had an interchangeable pair of Ronald de Boer (not even a striker originally) & 18 years old Kluivert. When you look at this set up, you won't expect an all-time great team, but that side played absolutely magnificent football:
Overmars - R. de Boer - George
Litmanen
Davids (22 y.o.) - Seedorf (19 y.o.)
Rijkaard (33 y.o.)
F. de Boer - Blind - Reiziger
van der Sar
In a few years — between 1998 and 2000, when all of those young footballers would reach their peak, Netherlands would have a squad stacked with world-class players, but at the moment those were mostly unknown youngsters.

2. Any Lobanovsky's team. He usually had one world-class player per generation and a bunch of good/very good ones, but his teams played brilliant football and often outplayed teams filled with much more talented individuals. He really had only 2 all-time greats playing for him throughout 3 very successful decades (Oleg Blokhin & Sheva), but Igor Belanov is a good case for Lobanovsky's influence — he had won Ballon d'Or in 1986 and he is probably the least talented player to ever receive the award (and I actually like him). 1986 Cup Winner's Cup final; 1988 Euros semi-final (USSR vs Italy)... the level of performance is mind-blowing. It's a perfect example of a well-built machine that elevates even average (on an all-time scale) players to insane heights.

So yeah, those are the most extreme cases. And then there are tons of examples of systems that had elevated world-class players to an even higher level — compare Pep's Barcelona to everything that came after him (although when they've had the Neymar-Suarez-Messi trio their individual quality and chemistry was so good that no system was needed).

Ole certainly has a system and those who say that he doesn't are, well, simply wrong. But he's not a very shrewd tactician that would be able to build a system that balances out our entire play (defensive & offensive one) and negates the obvious weak points that we have as a collective, and it's hard to imagine him suddenly learning that ability on the way.
And Rijkaard's Barcelona. Pure individuality.

I dont think United under SAF were this strict football with style from their tactics either but people will disagree talking about SAF's counter attacking whilst saying Ole's on individual ability.
 

romufc

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I don't think it's the goal itself, it's more a way how teams move the ball, create space for fullbacks to overlap, or islolate defenders to challenge them 1v1. There are some teams that do it very well (City, Leipzig), there are some which football is based on it rather than individual brilliance (Leicester, Leeds, Brighton) and there are teams who mostly rely on individual brilliance and have those moments of good play. I'd say we fall into the latter category, for multiple reasons really but I think this team has much more potential than it's showing.

Good football in terms of "patterns of play" or whatever we call it doesn't prevent from losing games, it's something you add on top of individual brilliance to make the team play better. I think we have those moments, but far from regular enough to call us well-drilled team in that department.

But we are not a counter attacking team. Just because we are good at it doesn't mean it's our "style of play" or that we don't dominate the ball in most games - not necessarily because we want to, but also because the opposition is happy to sit back and that's where we seem to rely on individuals to bail us out. Which is not wrong at all, but I feel we are a bit too reliant on it this season.

So what you're saying is we have patterns of play but you dont like it, that is not the same as having no pattern of play right?

Isnt the point of football to create chances and score? Leipzig may have the type of patterns of play you like but we beat them convincingly, so did Liverpool.

We have scored the most goals in the league without any pattern of play or style.

So, I can say the same about City then? They are not a possession team, just because they are good at it as teams let them have the ball?
 

Jezpeza

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We had pattern of play under LVG. How did that turn out? The whole ‘lack of tactics, lack of system, lack of patterns’ is a lame argument by the Ole out crowd. They forget how much counter attack we played under SAF, particularly against the other top teams. In fact, in my opinion, SAF invented the high press. In those days it didnt involve running as much but we used to have the back 4 up on the halfway line at times especially after Quieroz arrived, and play the whole game in the opposition half. In that way, the opposition had our front 6 on top of them all the time because of average postions and had no option but to hack clear and we could control possession. Saw elements of that against Southampton, albeit with them down to 10 men.

Leicester had a pattern of play under Ranieri - sit deep with a back 4, invite crosses to your giant centre backs and then get it forward quickly to vardy and mahrez who had space. Won the league one season and was completely sussed the next.

Liverpool have a system where the full backs bomb on and the cdm forms a back three and the wingers get inside. that won the league then stopped working. The villa game was brilliant where they just played a route one long ball over the top every chance and smashed them for 7.

i actually think individual ability is more important. Sure you can coach movement off the ball and one touch pass and pass and move etc, but i hate the idea that its all about ‘managerial tactics’ and ‘patterns’ and ‘systems’.

Like seriously, are people telling me if we gave Pep Guardiola or Jurgen Klopp the reigns at West Brom or Sheffield United he’d have them way up the table because of his tactics?
 

romufc

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Like seriously, are people telling me if we gave Pep Guardiola or Jurgen Klopp the reigns at West Brom or Sheffield United he’d have them way up the table because of his tactics?
This is why Mbappe, VVD, Messi, Haaland, Sancho, Ramos, etc... cost so much money, they produce individual brilliance.

Its a metric for the Ole out nothing more.
 

tomaldinho1

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We just have shoddy off the ball movement and have done for years.

How many times will you see one of our CMs get the ball and look up to a static forward line or, at best, there'll be a runner looking for the long ball?
 

Jezpeza

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This is why Mbappe, VVD, Messi, Haaland, Sancho, Ramos, etc... cost so much money, they produce individual brilliance.

Its a metric for the Ole out nothing more.
i know. And conversely, wolves, arsenal and spurs have individual brilliance. Surely if Ole was a PE teacher like some claim, relying on individuals, wouldnt we be lower in the table because you can have individual brilliance and be lower in the table. Or is it that we are only high because of the individuals? But individuals dont necessarily make you high in the table. Theres no angle that the argument makes any consistent sense from, its total dirge
 

Jezpeza

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We just have shoddy off the ball movement and have done for years.

How many times will you see one of our CMs get the ball and look up to a static forward line or, at best, there'll be a runner looking for the long ball?
i have thought this on many occasions. Out off the ball movement could be a lot greater.

However, if you see a team park the bus with two banks of 4 and zonal mark like most do against us the off the ball movement is largely cancelled out. But we have obviously worked on some tidy triangles and give and goes against the bus which we have seen martial, rashford and greenwood perform over last 18 months
 

eire-red

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But we've also failed to score in 5 games, more than City and West Ham and the same as Leicester, Spurs and Everton based on a quick check.

Scoring 15 in those two games against hapless opposition was awesome but it has sugar-coated the overall numbers a bit.

And to whoever said "we miss too many golden opportunities", if anything, it's the opposite. United are currently the biggest over-performers in terms of expected goals in the league.
We struggle to break down teams that play a low defensive line. Nobody is refuting that, and neither did I in my post. It's not a new problem. If teams don't set up to nullify us, we can dismantle any team in the league going forward.

We should be more dominant in games we should win. We need to improve defensively, but going forward I think it's more of a case of getting the balance right, rather than us needing to improve on our "patterns of play". Relying on a 34 year old Cavani, not having a nautral right winger, persisting with Martial when he offers nothing, individual errors in defence, these are the reasons that we are not in the title race anymore.

We don't need to change our style at all, we're playing some of the best football we've seen for years at times this season under Ole. We need to improve our consistency of performance, and have better quality options in key positions. It's as simple as that for me.
 

Mr.Ridiculous__

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We just have shoddy off the ball movement and have done for years.

How many times will you see one of our CMs get the ball and look up to a static forward line or, at best, there'll be a runner looking for the long ball?

Haven't you been watching us play this season?
 

tomaldinho1

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i have thought this on many occasions. Out off the ball movement could be a lot greater.

However, if you see a team park the bus with two banks of 4 and zonal mark like most do against us the off the ball movement is largely cancelled out. But we have obviously worked on some tidy triangles and give and goes against the bus which we have seen martial, rashford and greenwood perform over last 18 months
This is where pass speed and accuracy is key, zonal marking is very suspect if you have enough movement to pull people around. We just don't seem to have any interest in playing that style though so the hope is basically signing someone like Haaland, Lewa or Kane who can genuinely lead a line and is still mobile enough to suit our direct tactics.

Given the best No9's probably don't want United or are unavailable, I almost think Ole might as well have signed someone like Haller or Jiminez given how we play and then against these low block teams you just go 442 with Cavani and Haller/Jiminez up top and bombard their box, at least then we'd have enough aerial presence in their to make it a genuine tactic. They aren't world class but they've serve a specific use for 50% plus of our games.
 

tomaldinho1

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Haven't you been watching us play this season?
No, missed every single game but felt compelled to give my opinion anyway.

There's a reason Cavani turns up in the twilight of his career and it's immediately evident how much better his movement is than everyone else.
 

Adam-Utd

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The best teams have both.

Working the ball into a position that your flair/individual brilliance players can work their magic is the key.

We've definitely got better at it under Ole than Jose, but at times against a parked bus you can tell we run out of ideas. It's more an issue that we aren't patient enough and try to force openings rather than create them by waiting for a mistake to open up.

I think once we get safely get our defensive line higher + release the midfielders to play closer to the forwards rather than the defenders, we will be able to keep attacking pressure for longer. Too often we let teams get out of our box and counter us, especially at home.

This is the biggest difference between us, city and liverpool at their best.
 

Bilbo

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We don't need to change our style at all, we're playing some of the best football we've seen for years at times this season under Ole. We need to improve our consistency of performance, and have better quality options in key positions. It's as simple as that for me.
I agree with this. People tend to overestimate the impact that a coach can have in comparison to having the right players. They all NEED the right players. We see the impact that Cavani has had on this team this season. When he plays we tend to look a much more rounded offensive unit. Why? Is it because the teams instructions are different when he starts? Of course not. Its because, unlike Martial most of the time, he actually creates space & passing options with his movement. That in itself produces better 'patterns of play' (God, I hate that phrase with a passion).

Its the same when Pogba is in the team. He has his shortcomings, but his passing range opens up new possibilities and we usually look more fluent. Players are important. I believe we will see a similar leap forward in the team once we eventually solve our right wing issue.
 

romufc

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i know. And conversely, wolves, arsenal and spurs have individual brilliance. Surely if Ole was a PE teacher like some claim, relying on individuals, wouldnt we be lower in the table because you can have individual brilliance and be lower in the table. Or is it that we are only high because of the individuals? But individuals dont necessarily make you high in the table. Theres no angle that the argument makes any consistent sense from, its total dirge
Do you know whats worse? We have Rashford, Bruno who relies on penalties, where Kane, Auby, Son and the like are better more consistent players.

We play with McFred who alot of fans dislike and yet we produce the most moments of brilliance.

The notion makes no sense to me.
 

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So what you're saying is we have patterns of play but you dont like it, that is not the same as having no pattern of play right?
I'm saying we have patterns of play and there are moments when we play it right, but more often than not we rely on individual brilliance. This is exactly what I said in previous posts and you don't need to tell me "what you're saying".

Isnt the point of football to create chances and score? Leipzig may have the type of patterns of play you like but we beat them convincingly, so did Liverpool.
We got 3 points from two games against Leipzig. Good for us, but guess who is still playing in Champions League despite being beaten by 5 goals by us first leg. You are right, I like how they play. It seems to me like they are overachieving when you look at squad quality, which is what happens under a good coaching staff and what we should aspire to - whatever the style we choose.

We have scored the most goals in the league without any pattern of play or style.
This is some imaginary battle you're fighting because I've never said that.

So, I can say the same about City then? They are not a possession team, just because they are good at it as teams let them have the ball?
I said we are not a counter attacking side, so what kind of twisted logic is that? City are possession based team because they tend to have 60-70% of the ball 9/10 games, and it clearly suits them as they have no problem winning games playing that style.
We tend to have between 45-65% of ball possession, and we don't set up to counter attack against any team = we are NOT a counter attacking team. What's there to argue about?

The best teams have both.

Working the ball into a position that your flair/individual brilliance players can work their magic is the key.

We've definitely got better at it under Ole than Jose, but at times against a parked bus you can tell we run out of ideas. It's more an issue that we aren't patient enough and try to force openings rather than create them by waiting for a mistake to open up.
Exactly how I see it, especially the bolded part. It's shocking for me how many people seem to think the only way to improve is to buy better players.
 
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eire-red

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Isn’t your first paragraph more in line with individual brilliance? I mean sure, they do it regularly as a pattern but they are the only players in their team capable of doing it, so down to individual brilliance?
Of course it's down to individual brilliance. If having players of superior quality didn't matter, then we would be talking about Ajax, Leipzig etc as being the best teams in the world because their systems elevate the sum of their parts to a greater degree than most teams, you could argue.

But they're not because they don't have the likes of Mbappe, Haaland, Rashford etc. City have a certain style of play, but also have superior players to execute it. That is what makes them a top team. There's not any more to it really. If systems were more important than individuals, then the playing field would be flatter.

If we can come up with more innovative ways to break teams down, then brilliant. But it shouldn't be at the cost of allowing our top players the freedom to express themselves and produce moments of individual brilliance. Is that not why we watch football?
 

Jezpeza

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Do you know whats worse? We have Rashford, Bruno who relies on penalties, where Kane, Auby, Son and the like are better more consistent players.

We play with McFred who alot of fans dislike and yet we produce the most moments of brilliance.

The notion makes no sense to me.
Lets face it. Bruno is world class. Massive numbers on goals and assists.

mcfred are a great unit. Not so great individually. Rashford is quality but needs to find more consistency. Dont understand why some fans want to act like we have pub team players. Apart from phil jones, who we dont play
 

Dec9003

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I find this really hard to believe, because watching any game you can see patterns of play that are repeated time after time. Watch a Bielsa, LVG, Pep training session and you’ll see them working things time after time so it’s muscle memory. Certain movements happen to trigger actions or they work scenarios that people are drilled in or just becomes habit of moving to a certain place.

This is something that has probably been happening for Decades never even mind modern coaches, heck if you take your child to one of those super football club events and one of the games which is for 6 year olds is repeating a pattern so they can try and do it in game.
I've filmed a couple of Bieslas training sessions when he was at Leeds, of course they work on ways to say get the ball up the pitch or break down a defence, but nobody there ever spoke about 'patterns of play' simply put I don't think its a real thing, or at least its not a term used in the professional settings i've seen. I think its just one of those Caf phrases that becomes so loose in its definition it basically ends up meaningless.
 

youngrell

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Of course it's down to individual brilliance. If having players of superior quality didn't matter, then we would be talking about Ajax, Leipzig etc as being the best teams in the world because their systems elevate the sum of their parts to a greater degree than most teams, you could argue.

But they're not because they don't have the likes of Mbappe, Haaland, Rashford etc. City have a certain style of play, but also have superior players to execute it. That is what makes them a top team. There's not any more to it really. If systems were more important than individuals, then the playing field would be flatter.

If we can come up with more innovative ways to break teams down, then brilliant. But it shouldn't be at the cost of allowing our top players the freedom to express themselves and produce moments of individual brilliance. Is that not why we watch football?
It is indeed!
 

Zlatan 7

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[
I find this thread very interesting, reading how differently people understand football. My personnal opinion is we're a team which relies heavily on Bruno, Rashford et al. doing "something out of nothing". I share this views:


I thought this was obvious, but reading through those posts it certainly seems like if we invest time and energy into coaching and better team play, it will somehow make our star players less brilliant. When in reality it's exactly the opposite.

On the other side there are people who see no problem because we are top scorers in the league and they consider this as a proof we must have patterns of play.



I think Ole has some very good players at his disposal. I remember last years under Ferguson I was thinking "how is he winning with this squad". IMO we have really really good team right now.
We're 2nd but closer to 7th place than to 1st, and already out of CL and Carabao Cup, so it's not like we should be celebrating this season success.


This is an opinion I completely disagree with. We are not upgrading on every 2-3 players every season because they turn out not good enough. It's manager and his coaching staff job to find a way to make them play better as a collective. Are we improving? Yes. Are we a well coached team? No. But we are scoring a lot of goals which are very often down to individual brilliance and you can see how it hurts us when Bruno is out of form or Pogba out. Also, we've been winning by 1 goal more often than not this season so it's not like we're free-scoring team.


I think it's a bad thing for a couple of reasons:
1) top teams never really play free flowing football. They actually have patterns of play, even if they exchange positions player take up different role. Peak Barca, Bayern, current City do that on highest lever. From what I've seen this season Leipzig and Brighton do that quite well - they just don't have the players to pull this off against top teams. Hardly a reason to discredit their style of play.
2) if Ole tell front players to enjoy themselves, it makes me wonder why the hell we need coaching staff in general?

We also have much much better squad than under van Gaal.


Why not? We hammered them 5-0 but on the other occasion when it really mattered we couldn't get a point. They play very good football without having many spectacular players (that we have).


This is interesting and I'd say a good way to describe pattern of play, but I don't know what specifically you have in mind?
do you honestly think that rashford and Bruno get into so many scoring postings due to luck or purely just being in the right place at the right time by chance?

The team is setup to let these players thrive, we rely on them yes but we also make the space and create for them, to leave these players in 1v1 or break away opportunities. That’s because it set up that way and it works in my eyes, we’ve scored shitloads and missed boatloads, we’re just very nervous and shakey at the back.

to put this all down to luck or just that rashford or Bruno repeatedly pick the ball up at half way and use their brilliance to score doing “something out of nothing” is just wrong imo so I guess yeah, we do understand football differently
 

Jezpeza

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do you honestly think that rashford and Bruno get into so many scoring postings due to luck or purely just being in the right place at the right time by chance?

The team is setup to let these players thrive, we rely on them yes but we also make the space and create for them, to leave these players in 1v1 or break away opportunities. That’s because it set up that way and it works in my eyes, we’ve scored shitloads and missed boatloads, we’re just very nervous and shakey at the back.

to put this all down to luck or just that rashford or Bruno repeatedly pick the ball up at half way and use their brilliance to score doing “something out of nothing” is just wrong imo so I guess yeah, we do understand football differently
its an utter trash non point. ‘Something out of nothing’ would be if we couldnt put two passes together, played route one, and then Rashford got the ball, dribbled past 5 players and scored.

the fact we consistently get into goalscoring positions, either scoring or winning pens, isnt a fluke.

There are nutters on here who act as if we win pens because the opposition centre halve picks the ball up in his own box, bounces it twice like a basketball and goes ‘here you are, have a pen’.
 

romufc

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I'm saying we have patterns of play and there are moments when we play it right, but more often than not we rely on individual brilliance. This is exactly what I said in previous posts and you don't need to tell me "what you're saying".


We got 3 points from two games against Leipzig. Good for us, but guess who is still playing in Champions League despite being beaten by 5 goals by us first leg. You are right, I like how they play. It seems to me like they are overachieving when you look at squad quality, which is what happens under a good coaching staff and what we should aspire to - whatever the style we choose.


This is some imaginary battle you're fighting because I've never said that.


I said we are not a counter attacking side, so what kind of twisted logic is that? City are possession based team because they tend to have 60-70% of the ball 9/10 games, and it clearly suits them as they have no problem winning games playing that style.
We tend to have between 45-65% of ball possession, and we don't set up to counter attack against any team = we are NOT a counter attacking team. What's there to argue about?


Exactly how I see it, especially the bolded part. It's shocking for me how many people seem to think the only way to improve is to buy better players.
Every club in the world relies on individual brilliance, which is why Ronaldo at 34 went for £100m, this is why Messi is paid £1m a week. This is why Haaland, Sancho, Mbappe are so sought after.

If it was easy as having a "pattern of play" then why are the players with the best players winning trophies?

How are Leipzig over achieving? What have they won? they will be knocked out of the last 16 in CL, wont win their league.

They have average players? 2 of the most sought after CB's, 2/3 of some real talented players like Sabitzer, Olmo and the lad they signed in January.

Its weird how you say in one sentence City have the most ball int he PL so they are a Possession team yet we are 2nd in goals from counter attack and we aren't a counter attack team.
 

Marcus

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The United DNA has always been to have attacking wingers, flair individuals and not that much structure. We gamble. That's what makes us great to watch. And of course there is frustration when it doesn't work out.
 

romufc

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Lets face it. Bruno is world class. Massive numbers on goals and assists.

mcfred are a great unit. Not so great individually. Rashford is quality but needs to find more consistency. Dont understand why some fans want to act like we have pub team players. Apart from phil jones, who we dont play

One and only reason really Ole.

Don't see Chelsea complaining playing with 2 DM in a 5 at the back
Don't see Liverpool complaining with Hendo Gini Fab

Dont see City fans complaining about Sterling, he too loses the ball when he dribbles or makes wrong choices. Its because of the manager.
 

Foxbatt

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And Rijkaard's Barcelona. Pure individuality.

I dont think United under SAF were this strict football with style from their tactics either but people will disagree talking about SAF's counter attacking whilst saying Ole's on individual ability.
We did under SAF. Keane described it. It's called control, pass and move. We don't do anything of this even close. Most of them can't control, certainly our passing is bad and our movement is extremely bad.
This is why it gets stuck in the final third. We don't know how to create space. You don't create space if you don't move into space at the right time. The passer and the receiver has to be in sync as is the players creating the space. The passer needs to have at least 3 options to pass. He can have it only if the players without the ball move off the ball to create that space and more importantly if the passer passed the ball at the right time.
 

Andersons Dietician

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I've filmed a couple of Bieslas training sessions when he was at Leeds, of course they work on ways to say get the ball up the pitch or break down a defence, but nobody there ever spoke about 'patterns of play' simply put I don't think its a real thing, or at least its not a term used in the professional settings i've seen. I think its just one of those Caf phrases that becomes so loose in its definition it basically ends up meaningless.
Maybe they do use different terminology but I’ve seen managers use it in post interviews, pundits use it in breakdowns and so on so certainly the term pattern of play wasn’t invented on the Caf.

It can’t be as bad as “Generational talent”
 

Borys

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Every club in the world relies on individual brilliance, which is why Ronaldo at 34 went for £100m, this is why Messi is paid £1m a week. This is why Haaland, Sancho, Mbappe are so sought after.

If it was easy as having a "pattern of play" then why are the players with the best players winning trophies?
Of course, is that even a debate? Did I say anywhere "individual quality doesn't matter"?
On another extreme end: you can't seriously think players are thrown out there in Champions League final games with instructions "just enjoy yourself, you are a bunch of better players than our opponent so we will win it anyway"?

Its weird how you say in one sentence City have the most ball int he PL so they are a Possession team yet we are 2nd in goals from counter attack and we aren't a counter attack team.
Where did that stat come from?


I've filmed a couple of Bieslas training sessions when he was at Leeds, of course they work on ways to say get the ball up the pitch or break down a defence, but nobody there ever spoke about 'patterns of play' simply put I don't think its a real thing, or at least its not a term used in the professional settings i've seen. I think its just one of those Caf phrases that becomes so loose in its definition it basically ends up meaningless.
Bielsa is Argentinian isn't he? Maybe you heard something like "patrones de juego"?
 

Borys

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Liverpool are 6th, closer to 18th than to 1st. Do you think they do not have a good squad, patterns of play, have been well coached and have a good manager?

What I'm trying to say is that context matters. Liverpool are having a bad season. We are having a rather mixed season with good form followed by bad form.

Being out of the CL and Carabao is not ideal but is it your criteria for success?
I replied to a guy who said we we're fine because we've scored most goals this season, but when you apply the "context" you'll see that we're having mixed season as you said. Not great, not terrible - similar to how I rate our coaching staff.

I agree that the manager and coaches' job is to improve players. Do you think Ole and his team have improved Rashford, Shaw, McTominay, Greenwood and Fred? Some might argue that young players improve regardless of manager. I disagree.

Can a manager improve EVERY player? If so, why would clubs need transfers? Why do Pep and Klopp need transfers? Couldn't Klopp improve Lovren, Mignolet or Karius? Why did Origi not become the striker people thought he would 5 years ago?

Why did Pep not coach Joe Hart how to be the sweeper-keeper he needed or not let goals in his near post? Why did Pep needed to buy a bus full of world class fullbacks? Couldn't he improve what he had?
Of course manager won't improve any player, but the point of this discussion is I believe we are a team of good players and good coaching will improve us more than spending a lot of cash on individuals. Buying our way out of trouble so to speak can not be a long-term strategy for a few reasons, so we need to focus on what we have.

When Liverpool won a lot of games with 1 goal difference last season what happened? They became champions. In my opinion it is childish and naive to expect a team to win all games emphatically.
But again, the original post I was referring to said we've scored the highest number of goals in the league, while the reality is we've won most games by a single goal. This is another sidetrack of the discussion.

Saying that we lost to one team makes us inferior is silly. We eliminated PSG when Ole was caretaker. Did that make us a better team than them?

We eliminated Liverpool in the FA cup recently. Does that make us a better team than them? Not sure when "it really matters" but our team has proven that they can win important games and equally they can lose them. The Sevilla semi-final will hurt for al long time because it was a game that we should have won by a margin if our forwards took their chances. But that's football, sometimes you miss chances, sometimes your opponent misses chances.
Please don't make up things, or show me exactly where I said anything about us being better/worse. Again you mixed into this discussion ignoring what post I was replying to, so I'm not getting into that. It's not even related closely to the original argument.
 

Mr.Ridiculous__

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No, missed every single game but felt compelled to give my opinion anyway.

There's a reason Cavani turns up in the twilight of his career and it's immediately evident how much better his movement is than everyone else.
Because he is an elite striker? And has been for a while and across multiple clubs and managers. Jesus, some of the arguments here comes from where the sun don't shine.