Intensity or lack of

Rossa

Full Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
11,834
Location
Looking over my shoulder.
I think intensity, or better said the lack of intensity is United's greatest worry. The players are more than good enough for a top four finish. We have some good players in the squad, and it's not too unbalanced either. However, look at the game against Everton and how lackadaisical the players looked, behaved and played. There's no winning mentality on show, no aggressiveness. When Zirkzee was clubbed by Tarkowski (amazingly not a yellow card), he get angry, but immediatly that left him, and he kept on dallying about. Where's the spirit amongst the players?

Then there's the manager. Most managers are there on the touchline spending as many caloeries per game as the players - waving their arms, screaming at their players, ushering them forwards, yelling to the refs, getting the ball into play. Amorim either wanders back and forth or he sits in his chair looking indifferent.

I've always wondered what's the point of a conductor in an orchestra - plenty of brilliant musicians who know the melody, their job and the rythm by heart with countless hours of practice. However, they still need their conductor to set the tempo, to be the talisman of the orchestra. Is Amorim doing that job when the orchestra/team is playing? I'm not so sure.
 
It's clear he isn't doing it, I don't think he knows how. It's a monumentally difficult job for sure, but that's the United job. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

You can see with this team the intensity goes up and down, they pick and choose when they can be arsed and losses don't hurt like it should. To fix that you need a culture reset and at a club as big as United that takes someone with great character, like a Fergie.
 
SuperiorXI said:
It's clear he isn't doing it, I don't think he knows how. It's a monumentally difficult job for sure, but that's the United job. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

You can see with this team the intensity goes up and down, they pick and choose when they can be arsed and losses don't hurt like it should. To fix that you need a culture reset and at a club as big as United that takes someone with great character, like a Fergie.
Click to expand...
Thing is, he often talks about how the team needs to up the intensity in games and be more consistent with it, as you say. I just wonder, what does he think he can do about it, in games. By the look of it, he does next to nothing, and that can be easily remedied; if the players aren't showing fight, then go out there and get them fired up. Don't sit on a chair with the coat up over your ears and wonder why the players are caving.
 
Rossa said:
Thing is, he often talks about how the team needs to up the intensity in games and be more consistent with it, as you say. I just wonder, what does he think he can do about it, in games. By the look of it, he does next to nothing, and that can be easily remedied; if the players aren't showing fight, then go out there and get them fired up. Don't sit on a chair with the coat up over your ears and wonder why the players are caving.
Click to expand...
There will be countless techniques to use. Fergie was a master at this, there's lots of little snippets players talk about. From memory he'd tell Rio for example one of the other teams players has been talking shit about him. He'd pick on Rooney even though he was working the hardest etc. He engineered the highest standards. Amorim doesn't have a clue.
 
The system relies on intensity quite a bit, so when that drops off there are obvious issues. It’s a worry for sure.
 
SuperiorXI said:
It's clear he isn't doing it, I don't think he knows how. It's a monumentally difficult job for sure, but that's the United job. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.
Click to expand...
The thing is that he's not just failing at the monumentally difficult stuff. It's not as if he's doing as well as most managers and simply lacks that final edge that it might take to excel at United. On the contrary, he's making these huge, bizarre mistakes that literally any adult with an interest in football - let alone a professional manager - would never dream of doing because it's so obvious.

Amorim doesn't just lack the final 10% to bring us back to the top; he's so astonishingly terrible that he has kept us in consistent relegation form for what amounts to a full season. It's like watching someone steal the identity of a professional and attempt to perform a job in their field with no qualifications or experience of their own. It should not be possible for anybody who has their basic coaching badges to make the kinds of unbelievable mistakes that Amorim keeps making.

That has been the case from the beginning of his time here, but it was made especially clear on Monday. Playing at home against Everton, them down a man and up a goal, and he doesn't even attempt to switch to an attacking plan. That should not be possible. While I don't really think he was actively seeking to lose the game, this is what it would look like if he was. It really shouldn't be possible for someone to be a football manager at any level and fail at the absolute most basic concepts of the sport.
 
Well we start with intensity and then we drop off.

In my opinion, in sports, intensity it's a matter of will. So, if the players aren't willing, we kind of know what is happening.
 
Dansk said:
The thing is that he's not just failing at the monumentally difficult stuff. It's not as if he's doing as well as most managers and simply lacks that final edge that it might take to excel at United. On the contrary, he's making these huge, bizarre mistakes that literally any adult with an interest in football - let alone a professional manager - would never dream of doing because it's so obvious.

Amorim doesn't just lack the final 10% to bring us back to the top; he's so astonishingly terrible that he has kept us in consistent relegation form for what amounts to a full season. It's like watching someone steal the identity of a professional and attempt to perform a job in their field with no qualifications or experience of their own. It should not be possible for anybody who has their basic coaching badges to make the kinds of unbelievable mistakes that Amorim keeps making.

That has been the case from the beginning of his time here, but it was made especially clear on Monday. Playing at home against Everton, them down a man and up a goal, and he doesn't even attempt to switch to an attacking plan. That should not be possible. While I don't really think he was actively seeking to lose the game, this is what it would look like if he was. It really shouldn't be possible for someone to be a football manager at any level and fail at the absolute most basic concepts of the sport.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree, I was more talking specifically about being able to motivate the players. He is severely lacking in many other areas also, far below the top managers in the PL, let alone someone like Fergie.
 
Dansk said:
The thing is that he's not just failing at the monumentally difficult stuff. It's not as if he's doing as well as most managers and simply lacks that final edge that it might take to excel at United. On the contrary, he's making these huge, bizarre mistakes that literally any adult with an interest in football - let alone a professional manager - would never dream of doing because it's so obvious.

Amorim doesn't just lack the final 10% to bring us back to the top; he's so astonishingly terrible that he has kept us in consistent relegation form for what amounts to a full season. It's like watching someone steal the identity of a professional and attempt to perform a job in their field with no qualifications or experience of their own. It should not be possible for anybody who has their basic coaching badges to make the kinds of unbelievable mistakes that Amorim keeps making.

That has been the case from the beginning of his time here, but it was made especially clear on Monday. Playing at home against Everton, them down a man and up a goal, and he doesn't even attempt to switch to an attacking plan. That should not be possible. While I don't really think he was actively seeking to lose the game, this is what it would look like if he was. It really shouldn't be possible for someone to be a football manager at any level and fail at the absolute most basic concepts of the sport.
Click to expand...
A lot were clamoring for Thomas Frank as a United manager but his Tottenham team doesn't fare any better in standings than United. I'm not sure it is all on manager. Players these days have too much power. You can ask him to run his ass off but not a lot will. When he gets more money and coming to United his will to win dies a bit more. Versus Everton almost all of the players looked like semi professionals at best. Couldn't string a 5 yard pass together. What can you as a manager do with such a pile of shite? Also there is no walkover games in this league. Everton came to fight and they were more up for it than United players. Why I don't know. If players are downing tools then Amorim has to fire them up and get them performing or someone else will have to give it a try. But I am really disappointed with certain players. You have Dorgu who is young and limited player and you can't expect him to perform like prime Evra. But then you have players like Bruno, Amad who should be the prime players in this team. Zirkzee playing like he doesn't care etc. Mostly only Mbeumo maybe gets out of this game with any credit. Casemiro, DeLigt borderline passable. The rest were an abomination.
 
We keep players like Shaw, Martial, Lindelof for years. If you reward mediocrity and apathy, that is what you get. This is our culture. If any new manager doesn't come and demand that players like Shaw dont ever attend again any training the culture won't change.
 
SonOfFergie said:
A lot were clamoring for Thomas Frank as a United manager but his Tottenham team doesn't fare any better in standings than United. I'm not sure it is all on manager. Players these days have too much power. You can ask him to run his ass off but not a lot will. When he gets more money and coming to United his will to win dies a bit more. Versus Everton almost all of the players looked like semi professionals at best. Couldn't string a 5 yard pass together. What can you as a manager do with such a pile of shite? Also there is no walkover games in this league. Everton came to fight and they were more up for it than United players. Why I don't know. If players are downing tools then Amorim has to fire them up and get them performing or someone else will have to give it a try. But I am really disappointed with certain players. You have Dorgu who is young and limited player and you can't expect him to perform like prime Evra. But then you have players like Bruno, Amad who should be the prime players in this team. Zirkzee playing like he doesn't care etc. Mostly only Mbeumo maybe gets out of this game with any credit. Casemiro, DeLigt borderline passable. The rest were an abomination.
Click to expand...
It's not like United are the only team that pay top wages (and Everton players aren't on minimum wage), yet other clubs get their players working hard. What does that tell you?
 
Rossa said:
Thing is, he often talks about how the team needs to up the intensity in games and be more consistent with it, as you say. I just wonder, what does he think he can do about it, in games. By the look of it, he does next to nothing, and that can be easily remedied; if the players aren't showing fight, then go out there and get them fired up. Don't sit on a chair with the coat up over your ears and wonder why the players are caving.
Click to expand...

You're not wrong, he could absolutely do more, but at the same time these men are professionals.. well, on their resumes. When they sign they talk all that talk about how United is such a great club and they feel honored to play here, but you see nothing of that on the pitch.

If I consistently don't give 100% at work, does my manager need to take me aside and put some fire under my arse every single week, or are there certain expectations that I need to hold myself accountable to and be the professional that I am?

People talk about Fergie and what he did to motivate his players, but he also had players with pride. With the desire to be better than others. With dreams of becoming a champion. Tenacious fighters. Who in this current squad would classify as such a player. A player like Rio or Rooney or Ronaldo. You can give me the entire day and I still don't think I can answer that question.

There is a lot Amorim can do, but the players need to hold themselves to a certain standard.
 
I think it's tricky to start with 5 defenders then demand intensity.

It's not impossible but you don't ask or expect defenders to set the tone of a game.

They won't or can't do it. By their nature defenders sit back, play conservatively.

Your CM's and wide players create that front foot, on it type mentality.

But you have to pass the ball fairly well to create intensity. If you're giving it away easily you can't build pressure.

First 20 mins against Everton the back 5 and Zirkzee were awful on the ball. How can you build any intensity whilst giving the ball away?
 
Is it a lack of intensity or a lack of purpose in possession. We don't know what to do when the opponent aren't a side who would play out of defense for us to press them. It showed vs Forrest, Brentford, and against Everton.

It also showed in a lot of games last season.
Sure when we play ball playing teams we press well at least in first half before burning out but we burn out not just for a lack of stamina but also because we can't kill the opponent with possession play.

It's always direct attacks and counter pressing. That to me is the biggest worry, the clear limitation to what Amorim is creating irrespective of personnel. Maybe if he can get a real tempo setter in midfield who knows, but I fear for this side.
I don't see him surviving long because our weakness is obvious and sides will take advantage.
 
Marwood said:
Your CM's and wide players create that front foot, on it type mentality.
Click to expand...
It's a good observation. And it shows why we shouldn't call it a back three, it truly is a back five.

Using such a formation means you have two players on the wings who either behave like defenders, or like the wide players you describe. Under Amorim they are defenders. And that hurts everything.
 
The whole league is about intensity now, every one we play goes for us because it’s our biggest weakness and the players know it. If you drop off you get punished. Even teams down to 15th work incredibly hard. If you don’t there is no strategy, system or manager that can overcome it. We start every game at a disadvantage because half our squad is old injury prone slow and lazy and that’s before we even discuss quality. It’s literally insane when you have fans saying we are good enough for top 4. The Chelsea team(yes we got a result) that could have put 7 past Barca last night will have to fight for it. We are miles off. Is there anything worse than a grown man doing his dream job for incredible money saying the manager needs to motivate me. Everyone of those should be gone by the summer.
 
Last edited:
Rossa said:
Thing is, he often talks about how the team needs to up the intensity in games and be more consistent with it, as you say. I just wonder, what does he think he can do about it, in games. By the look of it, he does next to nothing, and that can be easily remedied; if the players aren't showing fight, then go out there and get them fired up. Don't sit on a chair with the coat up over your ears and wonder why the players are caving.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Intensity comes from the manager - you have to instill it if you haven't got the players on the pitch who are going to lose their shit and fire each other up.

It rests with the manager to make the players know what it is to play for this club. Fergie - would rage and jump off the bench at referees, we miss this. Hell he was fined every week for not giving match of the day interviews and the club paid for it, we miss that bullishness. Klopp would go apeshit and his players ran through walls for him, there's a correlation between showing passion and anger and having that resonate, your squad should reflect your own mentality. It also has the bonus of making ref's think twice about their decisions against us, especially at home.

I put myself in the players shoes, if i'm a guy who can't really motivate myself to the level i could on the pitch and we're losing - i look over to the bench and i see my manager red face screaming at me and the players. I think "shit, i better put a shift in - he's gonna murder me in the locker room". Or, i look across and the manager is sat on the bench, his jacket pulled up over his face like a sullen child, like he's given up or just doesn't care. Which one of these is going to motivate me?

Mentality as we know, is perhaps the biggest factor in sports - which leads me to bruno. In the same vein i want a captain in the mold of Keane. A motivator, someone who is going to rally and fire up his troops. Bruno is the opposite of this, whilst a fantastic player, he's a player who will sulk and whine when the chips are down. Maguire/Martinez are the only two players in the squad i would trust to light a fire under the team, i think de ligt might also have potential.
 
He managed to get a high level of intensity at Sporting though. The players probably don't want to run through walls for him, which is a problem. He needs to find out how to motivate them.
 
Solius said:
The system relies on intensity quite a bit, so when that drops off there are obvious issues. It’s a worry for sure.
Click to expand...

The problem is that you can't have intensity without reliable structure, right? You play with more tempo and intensity on the ball, but because the positioning of the players is poor in various zones, the intensity just leads to erratic and instinctive decisions that lead to turnovers.

The movements of the players are all off. A lot of the time we'll have the wing-back and the no.10 standing parallel to each other and there's no third man in sight, and so they can't play with a higher intensity because the structure of the runs doesn't permit options available to maintain it, and so they settle into a slower pattern to give players enough time to find space to receive a pass.

It's like trying to play a guitar faster but you have no muscle memory to even play it well slower, so, it just ends up intense for intensity sake.

The structure and the runs just don't allow for quality and intensity in equal measure.
 
Marwood said:
I think it's tricky to start with 5 defenders then demand intensity.

It's not impossible but you don't ask or expect defenders to set the tone of a game.

They won't or can't do it. By their nature defenders sit back, play conservatively.

Your CM's and wide players create that front foot, on it type mentality.

But you have to pass the ball fairly well to create intensity. If you're giving it away easily you can't build pressure.

First 20 mins against Everton the back 5 and Zirkzee were awful on the ball. How can you build any intensity whilst giving the ball away?
Click to expand...

Disagree with the first 3 paragraphs but agree with the rest.

With the first 3 paragraphs its about how high they play also. De Light has at times played super aggressive and high this season. When Chelsea won the league with this similar formation, they never lacked intensity.

Theres something Mane said in the recent interview with Rio, Klopp told him “we will build a team no one wants to play against”. I believe this is in relation to intensity and its true they did and you can see Arsenal have now too.
 
Rossa said:
I think intensity, or better said the lack of intensity is United's greatest worry. The players are more than good enough for a top four finish. We have some good players in the squad, and it's not too unbalanced either. However, look at the game against Everton and how lackadaisical the players looked, behaved and played. There's no winning mentality on show, no aggressiveness. When Zirkzee was clubbed by Tarkowski (amazingly not a yellow card), he get angry, but immediatly that left him, and he kept on dallying about. Where's the spirit amongst the players?

Then there's the manager. Most managers are there on the touchline spending as many caloeries per game as the players - waving their arms, screaming at their players, ushering them forwards, yelling to the refs, getting the ball into play. Amorim either wanders back and forth or he sits in his chair looking indifferent.

I've always wondered what's the point of a conductor in an orchestra - plenty of brilliant musicians who know the melody, their job and the rythm by heart with countless hours of practice. However, they still need their conductor to set the tempo, to be the talisman of the orchestra. Is Amorim doing that job when the orchestra/team is playing? I'm not so sure.
Click to expand...
The conductor role with a manager is a bit different imo. It's the analysis of the game that's probably the most important from a manager, so he knows what to tweak or instruct players to do half time or during the game. Also, I believe Amorim's yelling to his players from now and then. But if you want Arteta waving of arms, then he's not that. But I can't deny that there's a pattern in the managers who win the league. They're all shouting very much and active on the sidelines in everything. Ferguson, Pep, Klopp, Conte, Mourinho, Arteta soon. Slot, Ranieri are the exceptions and more quiet like Amorim. In the end it's how you put that fire in the player's bellies.
 
I agree the last game they lacked intensity against a man down, it was strangely subdued as I don't think it's necessarily been a major problem this season overall.

I think in the Everton game specifically, Amorim spent too long making a change to the red card, especially Mazraoui wing back with a man down was pretty unnecessary. Another problem was the lack of attacking players on the bench, even with a few injuries. If you have 9 subs on the bench, the most attacking player on it should not be Mount, you have to put a striker or winger there, even if it's from the academy.

The intangibles are obviously important but a lack of skill and poor tactical set-up is important too and that was severely lacking. Too many passengers.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Disagree with the first 3 paragraphs but agree with the rest.

With the first 3 paragraphs its about how high they play also. De Light has at times played super aggressive and high this season. When Chelsea won the league with this similar formation, they never lacked intensity.

Theres something Mane said in the recent interview with Rio, Klopp told him “we will build a team no one wants to play against”. I believe this is in relation to intensity and its true they did and you can see Arsenal have now too.
Click to expand...

You don't have to be high up to display intensity though.

Everton's back line was as deep as can be for 70 mins. Did they therefore as a team lack intensity? Not all all. Quite the opposite.

I know what you mean in general, you want the backline sufficiently high up.

But wherever the backline is, if you rely on defenders to set the pace of the game, as we often do, it won't end well.

You want De Ligt, Maguire and Shaw to be the pacemakers in this team? I don't.
They have moments where they have a go but it's just not natural. They have to force it.

Easy, overnight, part solution is reducing the number of defenders on the pitch.

Let the quicker, better footballers, who are further up the pitch set the tone. Put the emphasis there.
 
Don't think intensity is the cause. Lacking quality is. Too many Championship level players
 
Too many players playing without bravery. Too many not taking personal responsibility on the pitch.
 
cyril C said:
Don't think intensity is the cause. Lacking quality is. Too many Championship level players
Click to expand...
None of them are championship quality. Completely constrained by the system. All individuality has been knocked out of them. Pass, pass, pass from left to right, and back again.
 
Intensity, confidence, bravery - would all improve if the players believed in what they are told to do. I’d suggest all of these would increase with a good manager and better ways of setting us up. Set us up to fail - you can’t expect the players to react badly.
 
We can play against 10,we can play against a team that played less than 72 hours ago and we can have 1 game a week for the whole season but the one thing that doesn't change is how we are second to everything. Just a pathetic bunch of players
 
A week off playing a team who lost away on Thursday night and this shower can't make life the slightest bit difficult for them.
 
If you are managed and coached by a turd then you play like one
 
You have to imagine that the kit man was among those that lost their job. It's the only reason I can think of to explain why our players are so resistant to getting sweat and dirt on their kits.
 
The game today is basically the perfect example of this. The "system" we have is perfectly fine as far as i'm concerned, I think it suffers from a lack of good players in key areas but that can be improved. However, first half the team didn't look bothered, second to everything, lazy, no intensity, we looked awful. Second half all of a sudden we looked up for it, showed intensity, got 2 goals back and defended well.

Everton game was absolutely appalling, not because of the "system" or anything like that, but the players were just strolling around, no fight, no bite, no intensity, no aggression nothing. I absolutely do not know what to do about the issue, because it almost feels like they just turn it off and on when they want to. There's no excuse for that.
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
there's not enough running in behind
Click to expand...
That’s a big big piece of it …..the two 10’s are the players who should be making runs in behind not so much the 9 as he’s typically the connector

It’s why Cunha is an important piece bc he’s used to playing that role and he knows the movements needed to make to stretch the CB’s
 
Never bought the idea that the formation is such a problem. Any formation can work, but no formation will work unless you work hard and play with intensity, especially in the PL. Which is also partly on Amorim, of course.
 
Hammondo said:
I agree, we have a lot of work to do with our squad.
Click to expand...
All of the players out there are good players. But they aren’t working as a team, with these tactics and formation. As individuals, they are all fine. Maybe Zirkzee is way below standard - but even then in a team you can accept some players who aren’t of the right standard if they are working hard for their teammates.

The notion that we constantly need 5-10 players needs to stop. The unfortunate reality is that both ETH and Amorim have failed to get anywhere near the best of the players available to them - or indeed the hundreds of millions spent on additional players.
 
L1nk said:
The game today is basically the perfect example of this. The "system" we have is perfectly fine as far as i'm concerned, I think it suffers from a lack of good players in key areas but that can be improved. However, first half the team didn't look bothered, second to everything, lazy, no intensity, we looked awful. Second half all of a sudden we looked up for it, showed intensity, got 2 goals back and defended well.

Everton game was absolutely appalling, not because of the "system" or anything like that, but the players were just strolling around, no fight, no bite, no intensity, no aggression nothing. I absolutely do not know what to do about the issue, because it almost feels like they just turn it off and on when they want to. There's no excuse for that.
Click to expand...
Completely agree. Would say that this is issue is a staple for quite some time. Didn't start with Amorim, but made regular occurances under Mourinho and every manager that followed afterwards. I guess it is a mixture of what our players potentially think of themselves ("I play at United I must be a great player") and wrong conclusions ("I'll try to keep my coat clean and to be ready when the chances comes"). This is emphasized I think by having players in key positions that aren't at their physical peaks anymore. I think, that plays a huge part. We look 2nd best in midfield against the most ininspiring midfield combinations there are - because they get so close and make it uncomfortable). It is crazy that this situation hasn't been adressed for so long.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.