Internal Issues and Amorim's Stubbornness

kikks

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On the latest United.no premium podcast, the Norwegian Man Utd Supports Club journalists presented some information that they had heard from their club sources. It was concerning to listen to, and since I haven't seen it anywhere else, I decided to post it here. This is the link, but the podcast is just for members of the supports club so it's behind a paywall - and also it is in Norwegian except for a voicenote from Andy Mitten which is mostly about transfers and some more opinions on the Grimsby debacle.

Basically, the story was that during the preseason tour there was genuinely a good mood, and the feeling was that everyone was pushing in the same direction (see Shaw's quotes from the preseason etc). Additionally, with the opening of the new Carrington, the players did still feel like it was a place where they could stay and congregate and build relations with each other. But the feeling changed over the first few games. According to the podcast, their sources were saying that the idea of the new building was that there would be an open landscape, and everyone would be working together with a more equalized input.

But when the actual game planning started, Amorim and his staff went off and isolated themselves away from the other parts of the organization and the players. This has created a distance between the coaching staff and for example the data analysts, scouting and other departments. They referenced a source that had quit their job at United because they felt that there was not an environment where they were allowed to do their job. The feeling was stated as "if you do not have a Portuguese passport, your input is not considered" and that everything that should get to Amorim is coming through a Portuguese liaison. There was also a natural distancing to the player group, but they did not state anything sourced about mistrust from the players - that is merely speculation. But it does seem to invalidate this group of 5 leaders stuff that we heard earlier in the preseason.

They also revealed a quote they had from a source from earlier in the summer, which they hadn't really published yet as they didn't feel they had adequate context - the quote was "they have given him the keys to the castle". After Mourinho, the thinking inside Man Utd was that they would never give a manager full autonomy again, and that there should be checks and balances to that power. Now the feeling seems to be that they have made this same "mistake" again.

This is concerning to me, and further exacerbates the issues with stubbornness he has shown in being so wedded to his formation, system and principles. It shows a my way or the highway approach that is either hit or miss, and the evidence so far is that it is missing. I am not necessarily for just getting rid of another manager and starting all over once again, but in my opinion if there is a sense of division internally, the players are clearly unable or unwilling to follow the strict principles, there must be a change. That change could be Amorim softening up his principles and inviting more input and trying to find a new way forward that includes everyone, OR that he has to go.
 
All sounds like absolute tabloid waffle
Perhaps, but in my experience the people working for the Norwegian support club do not report anything unless it is thoroughly sourced. It is also never stated that this is the reason for why things are going badly, just that it is happening and is causing a bit of friction internally. They have no information as to how it has affected the players, which is also why I wrote that that part is speculation.

So he's a racist too eh?
Not sure that is what either I nor they were trying to convey here. Merely that he is keeping anyone that is not directly hired by him at a bit of a distance.
 
You know that the end is nigh when this kind of nonsense starts trickling out.

Also, everything was hunky-dory during the preseason but from the start of the season Amorim decided that is going to be the mad king with only his favorite coterie allowed access? Sounds a bit too out there.
 
On the latest United.no premium podcast, the Norwegian Man Utd Supports Club journalists presented some information that they had heard from their club sources. It was concerning to listen to, and since I haven't seen it anywhere else, I decided to post it here. This is the link, but the podcast is just for members of the supports club so it's behind a paywall - and also it is in Norwegian except for a voicenote from Andy Mitten which is mostly about transfers and some more opinions on the Grimsby debacle.

Basically, the story was that during the preseason tour there was genuinely a good mood, and the feeling was that everyone was pushing in the same direction (see Shaw's quotes from the preseason etc). Additionally, with the opening of the new Carrington, the players did still feel like it was a place where they could stay and congregate and build relations with each other. But the feeling changed over the first few games. According to the podcast, their sources were saying that the idea of the new building was that there would be an open landscape, and everyone would be working together with a more equalized input.

But when the actual game planning started, Amorim and his staff went off and isolated themselves away from the other parts of the organization and the players. This has created a distance between the coaching staff and for example the data analysts, scouting and other departments. They referenced a source that had quit their job at United because they felt that there was not an environment where they were allowed to do their job. The feeling was stated as "if you do not have a Portuguese passport, your input is not considered" and that everything that should get to Amorim is coming through a Portuguese liaison. There was also a natural distancing to the player group, but they did not state anything sourced about mistrust from the players - that is merely speculation. But it does seem to invalidate this group of 5 leaders stuff that we heard earlier in the preseason.

They also revealed a quote they had from a source from earlier in the summer, which they hadn't really published yet as they didn't feel they had adequate context - the quote was "they have given him the keys to the castle". After Mourinho, the thinking inside Man Utd was that they would never give a manager full autonomy again, and that there should be checks and balances to that power. Now the feeling seems to be that they have made this same "mistake" again.

This is concerning to me, and further exacerbates the issues with stubbornness he has shown in being so wedded to his formation, system and principles. It shows a my way or the highway approach that is either hit or miss, and the evidence so far is that it is missing. I am not necessarily for just getting rid of another manager and starting all over once again, but in my opinion if there is a sense of division internally, the players are clearly unable or unwilling to follow the strict principles, there must be a change. That change could be Amorim softening up his principles and inviting more input and trying to find a new way forward that includes everyone, OR that he has to go.
Sounds like made up nonsense.
 
Then by all means, feel free to ignore it. But as stated, my experience is that the people who reported this usually only do so when they feel it is well sourced, and usually provide sensible and measured analysis.

I thought it could be an interesting discussion to have, in light of everything that is happening at the club and the lack of results. There is clearly a significant amount of problems at the club, and I am not trying to say that this is the reason it is all going to shit.

Also, if United were winning this would probably never be a story. But they aren't, so it is. If you have ever worked in a workplace where you feel like your input and the work you put it is not appreciated or even considered, that is not a happy workplace.
 
Definitely interesting. You do get some interesting bits and pieces from people who work at the club. It was reported that more staff were let go to make way for more of Amorim's own appointees this summer.
 
His dogmatic commitment to ideas that are clearly ineffective, predictable and ill-suited to the squad at his disposal could be the biggest problem we have at a club riddled with problems.
 
They referenced a source that had quit their job at United because they felt that there was not an environment where they were allowed to do their job. The feeling was stated as "if you do not have a Portuguese passport, your input is not considered" and that everything that should get to Amorim is coming through a Portuguese liaison. There was also a natural distancing to the player group, but they did not state anything sourced about mistrust from the players - that is merely speculation. But it does seem to invalidate this group of 5 leaders stuff that we heard earlier in the preseason.
I think that is stretching a fair bit, even if the rumour is true. It's presumably some kind of office worker or data person and how they feel about their job has feck all to do with the leader group of players.
 
Thanks for sharing @kikks

You really do hope we've not given him the keys to the castle... Would be a monumental error. The fact that we've established lots of roles within the club (Head of Recruitment, DoF etc) makes me think we haven't though.
 
Its tough to make much of this tbh. It may just be a disgruntled employee who is bad mouthing the manager. Or there may be real issues.

I will note though that we haven't signed any Portuguese players since Amorim came in or even players that Amorim may have managed before.

I know the article was not necessarily referring to signing of Portuguese players but have offered as additional datapoint.
 
Isn't that hard to believe he might trust the staff that came in with him more than some of the other staff he hasn't gained as much of a rapport with yet. Don't know why that sounds like nonsense to some. The source does sound like one disgruntled ex employee who wasn't given enough attention though.
 
I don't believe Ratcliffe will hand the keys to anyone since he's been explicit that United's biggest issue has been in recruitment and prioritised setting up a data department, so any United manager will have to work with them going forward if they like it or not.
 
A bunch of nonsense.
And the coach should have full autonomy when it comes to the team setup and the dressing room.
So the checks and balances stuff doesn't make sense to me.

Amorim system isn't a surprised. If INEOS feel it has no chance of success, answer is to fire him not force him to change his system.

The DOF shouldn't interfere with how the coach manages the 1st team. Just like owner, shouldn't interfere with who the DOF recruits.
 
I'm not as concerned about Amorim sticking with his formation as much as I'm concerned about him getting sacked and the new manager breaking everything up again. We just got rid of all our wingers, so if we sack Amorim and someone like ETH comes back, we're going to be getting rid of all our central forwards and investing a ton of money on traditional wingers, starting another two season long drama on "rebuild" v7.0. Quoting myself:

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

I truly hope we stick with Amorim for at least 3 seasons, irrespective of the results, however non-optimal as that may sound.
 
On the latest United.no premium podcast, the Norwegian Man Utd Supports Club journalists presented some information that they had heard from their club sources. It was concerning to listen to, and since I haven't seen it anywhere else, I decided to post it here. This is the link, but the podcast is just for members of the supports club so it's behind a paywall - and also it is in Norwegian except for a voicenote from Andy Mitten which is mostly about transfers and some more opinions on the Grimsby debacle.

Basically, the story was that during the preseason tour there was genuinely a good mood, and the feeling was that everyone was pushing in the same direction (see Shaw's quotes from the preseason etc). Additionally, with the opening of the new Carrington, the players did still feel like it was a place where they could stay and congregate and build relations with each other. But the feeling changed over the first few games. According to the podcast, their sources were saying that the idea of the new building was that there would be an open landscape, and everyone would be working together with a more equalized input.

But when the actual game planning started, Amorim and his staff went off and isolated themselves away from the other parts of the organization and the players. This has created a distance between the coaching staff and for example the data analysts, scouting and other departments. They referenced a source that had quit their job at United because they felt that there was not an environment where they were allowed to do their job. The feeling was stated as "if you do not have a Portuguese passport, your input is not considered" and that everything that should get to Amorim is coming through a Portuguese liaison. There was also a natural distancing to the player group, but they did not state anything sourced about mistrust from the players - that is merely speculation. But it does seem to invalidate this group of 5 leaders stuff that we heard earlier in the preseason.

They also revealed a quote they had from a source from earlier in the summer, which they hadn't really published yet as they didn't feel they had adequate context - the quote was "they have given him the keys to the castle". After Mourinho, the thinking inside Man Utd was that they would never give a manager full autonomy again, and that there should be checks and balances to that power. Now the feeling seems to be that they have made this same "mistake" again.

This is concerning to me, and further exacerbates the issues with stubbornness he has shown in being so wedded to his formation, system and principles. It shows a my way or the highway approach that is either hit or miss, and the evidence so far is that it is missing. I am not necessarily for just getting rid of another manager and starting all over once again, but in my opinion if there is a sense of division internally, the players are clearly unable or unwilling to follow the strict principles, there must be a change. That change could be Amorim softening up his principles and inviting more input and trying to find a new way forward that includes everyone, OR that he has to go.
Reading like clickbait. Anonymous former staff and non validated speculations and opinions piece.
 
I'm not as concerned about Amorim sticking with his formation as much as I'm concerned about him getting sacked and the new manager breaking everything up again. We just got rid of all our wingers, so if we sack Amorim and someone like ETH comes back, we're going to be getting rid of all our central forwards and investing a ton of money on traditional wingers, starting another two season long drama on "rebuild" v7.0. Quoting myself:

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

I truly hope we stick with Amorim for at least 3 seasons, irrespective of the results, however non-optimal as that may sound.

Point 2 and 3 seem to contradict. If he’s 70% into his transition, having only been here 9 months, then one would assume he’s finished by the end of this year. So why does he need a couple more years?

I don’t buy this rinse repeat argument. If it can be seen that someone is on the wrong track, you don’t let them continue going down it. There has to be signs of progress- especially if as you say he’s 70% into his transition.

Don’t worry. There is no signing we have made that hasn’t previously played in a different system.
 
On the latest United.no premium podcast, the Norwegian Man Utd Supports Club journalists presented some information that they had heard from their club sources. It was concerning to listen to, and since I haven't seen it anywhere else, I decided to post it here. This is the link, but the podcast is just for members of the supports club so it's behind a paywall - and also it is in Norwegian except for a voicenote from Andy Mitten which is mostly about transfers and some more opinions on the Grimsby debacle.

Basically, the story was that during the preseason tour there was genuinely a good mood, and the feeling was that everyone was pushing in the same direction (see Shaw's quotes from the preseason etc). Additionally, with the opening of the new Carrington, the players did still feel like it was a place where they could stay and congregate and build relations with each other. But the feeling changed over the first few games. According to the podcast, their sources were saying that the idea of the new building was that there would be an open landscape, and everyone would be working together with a more equalized input.

But when the actual game planning started, Amorim and his staff went off and isolated themselves away from the other parts of the organization and the players. This has created a distance between the coaching staff and for example the data analysts, scouting and other departments. They referenced a source that had quit their job at United because they felt that there was not an environment where they were allowed to do their job. The feeling was stated as "if you do not have a Portuguese passport, your input is not considered" and that everything that should get to Amorim is coming through a Portuguese liaison. There was also a natural distancing to the player group, but they did not state anything sourced about mistrust from the players - that is merely speculation. But it does seem to invalidate this group of 5 leaders stuff that we heard earlier in the preseason.

They also revealed a quote they had from a source from earlier in the summer, which they hadn't really published yet as they didn't feel they had adequate context - the quote was "they have given him the keys to the castle". After Mourinho, the thinking inside Man Utd was that they would never give a manager full autonomy again, and that there should be checks and balances to that power. Now the feeling seems to be that they have made this same "mistake" again.

This is concerning to me, and further exacerbates the issues with stubbornness he has shown in being so wedded to his formation, system and principles. It shows a my way or the highway approach that is either hit or miss, and the evidence so far is that it is missing. I am not necessarily for just getting rid of another manager and starting all over once again, but in my opinion if there is a sense of division internally, the players are clearly unable or unwilling to follow the strict principles, there must be a change. That change could be Amorim softening up his principles and inviting more input and trying to find a new way forward that includes everyone, OR that he has to go.

Not sure why people just instantly think stories like these are lies. Not everything comes via the usual sources.

It may well be that Amorim and his staff are seen as a bit of a clique by other staff who were there prior.

Does it impact the team though? Who knows? And if that is the way he operates then that is for him to decide as manager.

Do find it a little hard to believe he has been given the keys to the castle, as was reported given now we have a seemingly active DOF.
 
So its an open space designed building and theyre always in a group of 5 unreachable by other people?

Where did they hide then? In the toilet? It doesnt make sense to me.
 
Ah, nothing like a morning read of some fiction. Though I’d say that “Portuguese passport” part was funny.
 
I think that is stretching a fair bit, even if the rumour is true. It's presumably some kind of office worker or data person and how they feel about their job has feck all to do with the leader group of players.

Yes, and I wasn't too clear there. The speculation is on my part, in the podcast they just said there is no sign that this has reached the players. And with the performance they gave against Burnely, media nonsense aside, I thought they gave an almost complete performance outside of a few situations. They are clearly still playing for him.
Thanks for sharing @kikks

You really do hope we've not given him the keys to the castle... Would be a monumental error. The fact that we've established lots of roles within the club (Head of Recruitment, DoF etc) makes me think we haven't though.
I don't believe Ratcliffe will hand the keys to anyone since he's been explicit that United's biggest issue has been in recruitment and prioritised setting up a data department, so any United manager will have to work with them going forward if they like it or not.
A bunch of nonsense.
And the coach should have full autonomy when it comes to the team setup and the dressing room.
So the checks and balances stuff doesn't make sense to me.

Amorim system isn't a surprised. If INEOS feel it has no chance of success, answer is to fire him not force him to change his system.

The DOF shouldn't interfere with how the coach manages the 1st team. Just like owner, shouldn't interfere with who the DOF recruits.
In the way that was stated, the "keys to the castle" here means for example that he brought his entire coaching team from Portugal with him and has the full autonomy over training, tactics and everything the players do at Carrington. At the time, this was in the middle of the season and easier to accept, seeing as they needed a quick turnaround. During pre-season also, everything is about training, games, restitution and implementing the system they are playing with. But when the game planning against Arsenal was going to happen, Amorim and his team physically, behind closed doors, isolated themselves and did not use the clubs specialists, which from what these guys reported on the podcast was deemed detrimental to the strategy laid out by Ratcliffe and Brailsford. This also might tie in with the general unease after all the layoffs too, perhaps? Again speculation on my part.

And this all might be nonsense and sour grapes, like I said I have no idea, these are not my sources or anything. But in my experience with the Norwegian supporters club journos, when they report something it is generally well sourced. No one seems to be shouting this off the rooftops yet either, which is a good sign that this is something that might very well dissipate if the team starts showing coherence and getting some results. Winning solves most things.
 
Sounds interesting to me, and definitely possible. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it's true. Thanks for sharing.
 
"they have given him the keys to the castle"

But not signing players that Amorim wants, is massively contradicting, don't you think?
 
On the latest United.no premium podcast, the Norwegian Man Utd Supports Club journalists presented some information that they had heard from their club sources. It was concerning to listen to, and since I haven't seen it anywhere else, I decided to post it here. This is the link, but the podcast is just for members of the supports club so it's behind a paywall - and also it is in Norwegian except for a voicenote from Andy Mitten which is mostly about transfers and some more opinions on the Grimsby debacle.

Basically, the story was that during the preseason tour there was genuinely a good mood, and the feeling was that everyone was pushing in the same direction (see Shaw's quotes from the preseason etc). Additionally, with the opening of the new Carrington, the players did still feel like it was a place where they could stay and congregate and build relations with each other. But the feeling changed over the first few games. According to the podcast, their sources were saying that the idea of the new building was that there would be an open landscape, and everyone would be working together with a more equalized input.

But when the actual game planning started, Amorim and his staff went off and isolated themselves away from the other parts of the organization and the players. This has created a distance between the coaching staff and for example the data analysts, scouting and other departments. They referenced a source that had quit their job at United because they felt that there was not an environment where they were allowed to do their job. The feeling was stated as "if you do not have a Portuguese passport, your input is not considered" and that everything that should get to Amorim is coming through a Portuguese liaison. There was also a natural distancing to the player group, but they did not state anything sourced about mistrust from the players - that is merely speculation. But it does seem to invalidate this group of 5 leaders stuff that we heard earlier in the preseason.

They also revealed a quote they had from a source from earlier in the summer, which they hadn't really published yet as they didn't feel they had adequate context - the quote was "they have given him the keys to the castle". After Mourinho, the thinking inside Man Utd was that they would never give a manager full autonomy again, and that there should be checks and balances to that power. Now the feeling seems to be that they have made this same "mistake" again.

This is concerning to me, and further exacerbates the issues with stubbornness he has shown in being so wedded to his formation, system and principles. It shows a my way or the highway approach that is either hit or miss, and the evidence so far is that it is missing. I am not necessarily for just getting rid of another manager and starting all over once again, but in my opinion if there is a sense of division internally, the players are clearly unable or unwilling to follow the strict principles, there must be a change. That change could be Amorim softening up his principles and inviting more input and trying to find a new way forward that includes everyone, OR that he has to go.

Ten Hag says Hi.
 
"they have given him the keys to the castle"

But not signing players that Amorim wants, is massively contradicting, don't you think?

You sign players that your coach is happy with but you don't necessarily sign the players he wants. You have to build your squad with an eye on a future beyond the current coach. This is where United have struggled post SAF, we've given the managers way too much power on transfers.
 
You sign players that your coach is happy with but you don't necessarily sign the players he wants. You have to build your squad with an eye on a future beyond the current coach. This is where United have struggled post SAF, we've given the managers way too much power on transfers.
Agreed. That's happening with Amorim now. I was highlighting the contrary on OP post, to what's actually happening.
 
I think the Portuguese angle is a little more real than people think. I don't understand how Dalot survived to this season after last year and the change in the system. He's not been good enough as a RWB and even as a RB he was worse than Maz. I understand that one side of the ball will be defensive but Dalot has been average at best for over a year now. We couldve sold him for a profit but Dalot looks like he's here for an extended amount of time. There have also been times for Bruno, but considering how important he's become it sort of makes sense. My problem with Bruno is that when he's having a bad game he's allowed to stay and keep playing instead of pulling him out but you can't say that for others
 
I think the Portuguese angle is a little more real than people think. I don't understand how Dalot survived to this season after last year and the change in the system. He's not been good enough as a RWB and even as a RB he was worse than Maz. I understand that one side of the ball will be defensive but Dalot has been average at best for over a year now. We couldve sold him for a profit but Dalot looks like he's here for an extended amount of time. There have also been times for Bruno, but considering how important he's become it sort of makes sense. My problem with Bruno is that when he's having a bad game he's allowed to stay and keep playing instead of pulling him out but you can't say that for others

Sure Buno had bad games. But then Amorim see the alternatives on the bench, and the rest is history.
 
. But when the game planning against Arsenal was going to happen, Amorim and his team physically, behind closed doors, isolated themselves and did not use the clubs specialists
Why would they physically hide behind closed doors, to avoid leaks of information or what?
 
Complete waffle with a big dose of chinese whispers. Facilitated by anti Amourin brigade.
Posts like this are dangerous as they spread and fools take them as gospel.
Give him the time he needs to rebuild, hes doing a great job. He spotted the dead wood and problematic players quickly and got rid.
 
You don't need silly speculation you can just look at what you actually see on and off the pitch. Which is us trying the same thing over and over despite knowing it doesn't work
 
Complete waffle with a big dose of chinese whispers. Facilitated by anti Amourin brigade.
Posts like this are dangerous as they spread and fools take them as gospel.
Give him the time he needs to rebuild, hes doing a great job. He spotted the dead wood and problematic players quickly and got rid.

This. It's not helpful that the Scandi supporters club are spreading stuff like this.
 
Yes, and I wasn't too clear there. The speculation is on my part, in the podcast they just said there is no sign that this has reached the players. And with the performance they gave against Burnely, media nonsense aside, I thought they gave an almost complete performance outside of a few situations. They are clearly still playing for him.



In the way that was stated, the "keys to the castle" here means for example that he brought his entire coaching team from Portugal with him and has the full autonomy over training, tactics and everything the players do at Carrington. At the time, this was in the middle of the season and easier to accept, seeing as they needed a quick turnaround. During pre-season also, everything is about training, games, restitution and implementing the system they are playing with. But when the game planning against Arsenal was going to happen, Amorim and his team physically, behind closed doors, isolated themselves and did not use the clubs specialists, which from what these guys reported on the podcast was deemed detrimental to the strategy laid out by Ratcliffe and Brailsford. This also might tie in with the general unease after all the layoffs too, perhaps? Again speculation on my part.

And this all might be nonsense and sour grapes, like I said I have no idea, these are not my sources or anything. But in my experience with the Norwegian supporters club journos, when they report something it is generally well sourced. No one seems to be shouting this off the rooftops yet either, which is a good sign that this is something that might very well dissipate if the team starts showing coherence and getting some results. Winning solves most things.
When was the last time a full time manager came into a job without his team of staffs?