International Holocaust Remembrance Day

Denis79

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On this day 1945, Auschwits-Birkenau was liberated. Extreme right political parties are gaining a foothold all over Europe and the World. Think it's more important than ever to remember where intolerence, racism and hate can take us as a human race.
 

Denis79

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Indeed. It seems people think it couldn’t happen again.
It happens every day, all over the world just in a smaller scale. All over Africa, Burma, Indonesia, Middle East, we even had it in europe just 2 decades ago in the Yugoslavian Civil War. It's scary when the political establishment in several traditionally tolerant countries encourage hate and racism.
 

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It happens every day, all over the world just in a smaller scale. All over Africa, Burma, Indonesia, Middle East, we even had it in europe just 2 decades ago in the Yugoslavian Civil War. It's scary when the political establishment in several traditionally tolerant countries encourage hate and racism.
Yep. The “it can’t happen to me/us” fallacy
 

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"Barbarism has not been banished, it haunts our every step"
 

Cait Sith

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We are slowly getting back to those days.

German parliament members are tweeting stuff like "half ni**er" (to Boris Becker's son) and "appeasing hords of rapist Arabs" (in reaction to a Tweet from the German police wishing a happy new year in several languages, including Arabic). Another one just a couple of days ago actually proclaimed: "Don't buy from Turks".

This kind of speech is getting normal now in Europe and you wouldn't believe how many people in the comment sections of reputable (not Dailymail-like) newspapers defend this. In Austria and Eastern Europe it's worse and the less said about Trump's rhetoric the better.

Don't know how all of this will end.
 

Denis79

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We are slowly getting back to those days.

German parliament members are tweeting stuff like "half ni**er" (to Boris Becker's son) and "appeasing hords of rapist Arabs" (in reaction to a Tweet from the German police wishing a happy new year in several languages, including Arabic). Another one just a couple of days ago actually proclaimed: "Don't buy from Turks".

This kind of speech is getting normal now in Europe and you wouldn't believe how many people in the comment sections of reputable (not Dailymail-like) newspapers defend this. In Austria and Eastern Europe it's worse and the less said about Trump's rhetoric the better.

Don't know how all of this will end.
You hit the nail on the head, as extreme parties get a foothold they usually package the hate more neatly with nicer words making it more acceptable. They camouflage their racist/hatred agenda in nationalism and people buy in to their deceit. It has become the norm to generalize people of different cultures, religions, "if your differen't you're bad" or so to speak. It's nothing but racism in a different form.
 

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Yep. The “it can’t happen to me/us” fallacy
It's just anecdotal really, but I have a theory that it doesn't help that WWII veterans are mostly dying or dead. My grandparents who lived through the war were all a bit racist in the way old people are, but would never dream of implementing those feelings in any sort of political campaigning. Living in a world without freedom is something most of us westerners today has never experienced, and probably underestimate the strain it was.

It could probably not happen again with that generation.
 

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It's just anecdotal really, but I have a theory that it doesn't help that WWII veterans are mostly dying or dead. My grandparents who lived through the war were all a bit racist in the way old people are, but would never dream of implementing those feelings in any sort of political campaigning. Living in a world without freedom is something most of us westerners today has never experienced, and probably underestimate the strain it was.

It could probably not happen again with that generation.
It's more than a theory to be fair to you, it's very much akin to the 3 generations of wealth hypothesis ie it takes about 3 generations to either lose wealth or knowledge. It's one of the reasons that I believe Israel is dragging their occupation on for so long, so that the new generation of Palestinians will have no connection with what their grandparents and great grandparents went through.
 

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It's more than a theory to be fair to you, it's very much akin to the 3 generations of wealth hypothesis ie it takes about 3 generations to either lose wealth or knowledge. It's one of the reasons that I believe Israel is dragging their occupation on for so long, so that the new generation of Palestinians will have no connection with what their grandparents and great grandparents went through.
I use that when I teach.

We are moving through the 3rd generation since WWII now.
 

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Genocide never stops, racism and xenophobia never stops, hatred never stops and so war will never stop.

Auschwitz is a strange place. For the obvious reasons when you're there you can't fathom what was going through people's minds to come up with such a horrendous idea. What drove them on and why and how on earth they managed it all (in that sense it's impressive but in the worst possible way). Efficiently of the most horrible manner, a truly effective slaughterhouse of extreme measures.

You can't fathom the despair and pain of the people innocently caught up in it, either being led to their death in the gas chambers or just barely surviving freezing, starving, diseased and a hair's breadth away from being shot, tortured, experimented on or being sent themselves to the gas chambers.

You can be there all day and never take it all in and never read everything or see everything and all the way you've no idea how to describe how it feels to be there knowing what went on.

But then there's the other side of it. Disneyland for the Holocaust. Everybody in, make sure you get your selfies with the Arbeit Macht Frei gate, make sure you get a filtered photo of the train tracks with the famous gate tower building in the background and definitely make sure you let your kids run around playing and wear innappropriate clothing too (one woman with Party Slut on her t-shirt and a bloke with 'if you're not here to party then feck off' on his back, I'm looking at you).

I also feel awful because I'm likely going back to Poland in March and I want to go back to Auschwitz (it sounds odd to say you want to go once, let alone twice) because I didn't do the guided tour so didn't see the room with the shoes, the hair or any of the stuff you know Auschwitz for as a tourist. I think that probably makes me a bad person but I've also got an insane hunger for being miserable and seeing miserable stuff so it definitely appeals to the depressed side of me.

I just wish we could take all the people who openly spread hate (especially idly and carelessly on social media or by disguising it under the words of a God) and send them there for the day and not let them out until they realise what hate can actually do and educate them on how bad we can actually be as a species.

My heart definitely ached and I felt utterly sick when stood next to the gas chamber ruins and I read the sign 'here lies the remains of 500,000 people, please be respectful'.

What the feck are we as people to allow that to happen, really?
 

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Genocide never stops, racism and xenophobia never stops, hatred never stops and so war will never stop.

Auschwitz is a strange place. For the obvious reasons when you're there you can't fathom what was going through people's minds to come up with such a horrendous idea. What drove them on and why and how on earth they managed it all (in that sense it's impressive but in the worst possible way). Efficiently of the most horrible manner, a truly effective slaughterhouse of extreme measures.

You can't fathom the despair and pain of the people innocently caught up in it, either being led to their death in the gas chambers or just barely surviving freezing, starving, diseased and a hair's breadth away from being shot, tortured, experimented on or being sent themselves to the gas chambers.

You can be there all day and never take it all in and never read everything or see everything and all the way you've no idea how to describe how it feels to be there knowing what went on.

But then there's the other side of it. Disneyland for the Holocaust. Everybody in, make sure you get your selfies with the Arbeit Macht Frei gate, make sure you get a filtered photo of the train tracks with the famous gate tower building in the background and definitely make sure you let your kids run around playing and wear innappropriate clothing too (one woman with Party Slut on her t-shirt and a bloke with 'if you're not here to party then feck off' on his back, I'm looking at you).

I just wish we could take all the people who openly spread hate and send them there for the day and not let them out until they realise what hate can actually do and educate them on how bad we can actually be as a species.

My heart definitely ached and I felt utterly sick when stood next to the gas chamber ruins and I read the sign 'here lies the remains of 500,000 people, please be respectful'.

What the feck are we as people to allow that to happen, really?
I've been to Dachau and know what you mean about the selfies by the arbeit macht frei gates. They are iconic in their own way I guess.
Very solemn place though and it stays with you a good while after leaving. The sheer vastness of the place is definitely one of the most shocking aspects.
It was tough when we went- on the shuttle bus from the tube there was a really old woman crying her eyes out on the way. Can only imagine who she was presumably remembering by going there.
 

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This kind of speech is getting normal now in Europe and you wouldn't believe how many people in the comment sections of reputable (not Dailymail-like) newspapers defend this.
This really is shocking, the amount of open racism in newspaper comment sections, even left leaning newspapers seems to be growing every year.
 

Synco

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I also feel awful because I'm likely going back to Poland in March and I want to go back to Auschwitz (it sounds odd to say you want to go once, let alone twice) because I didn't do the guided tour so didn't see the room with the shoes, the hair or any of the stuff you know Auschwitz for as a tourist. I think that probably makes me a bad person but I've also got an insane hunger for being miserable and seeing miserable stuff so it definitely appeals to the depressed side of me.
I honestly don't think it makes you a bad person. Even less so for the fact that you're aware of how it's almost impossible to deal with all this in an appropriate manner. I know that same urge very well, and I think it is ultimately linked to something valuable. Perhaps it's a refusal to suppress something that is real, the urge to see it in the eye for what it is, no matter how horrible.

For example, nowadays it's impossible to wander through the internet without coming across all of these pictures and stories. Most of the time I actively avoid them. But from time to time, when I somehow feel it is appropriate, I give in to that urge and expose myself to these things head-on. Doing that can shake oneself to the bone, but it also helps me to remind me of things that are important.
 

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The Holocaust remains a dark shadow on humanity. Other horrors, for example in Cambodia, are similar stains, but this monstrosity, carried out by a modern industrial society, in broad daylight, at the heart of Europe, seems closer. It is an demonstration of how easily humans, even very 'polite' and 'sophisticated' ones, can have their darkest impulses played upon by clever manipulation, to abandon any pretence at justice and compassion and revert to their lowest form. The Nazis perpetrated most of their crimes on Jewish people, or those they designated Jewish, and that should never be forgotten. But they also murdered Romany people, Poles and other nationalities, and of course any Germans who opposed the Third Reich. It is a sacred and particular duty on every generation to remind the following generation of the names of the places that live in infamy.
 

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I never understood the controversy about the excellent film Downfall. Some critics claimed that the movie 'humanised' the soulless monster that was Adolf Hitler, showed him being kind and respectful, and so on. But for me, the criticism was irrelevant - while Hitler was, on occasion, shown in a good light, it was still easy to bear in mind what he had done. How could one forget?
 

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I never understood the controversy about the excellent film Downfall. Some critics claimed that the movie 'humanised' the soulless monster that was Adolf Hitler, showed him being kind and respectful, and so on. But for me, the criticism was irrelevant - while Hitler was, on occasion, shown in a good light, it was still easy to bear in mind what he had done. How could one forget?
It's a brilliant film.

Surely it's right that Hitler was humanised? It takes away from the mystique surrounding him. I mean Godwin's Law is a very real example. How much of a superhuman do you have to be that whenever anyone does anything bad, you're the one they compare to, 73 years on from your death?

Humanising him highlights his massive flaws a lot better and leads people to understand he wasn't a comic book supervillain. How that can ever be a criticism about Hitler I'll never know. What were they thinking?
 

Denis79

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It's a brilliant film.

Surely it's right that Hitler was humanised? It takes away from the mystique surrounding him. I mean Godwin's Law is a very real example. How much of a superhuman do you have to be that whenever anyone does anything bad, you're the one they compare to, 73 years on from your death?

Humanising him highlights his massive flaws a lot better and leads people to understand he wasn't a comic book supervillain. How that can ever be a criticism about Hitler I'll never know. What were they thinking?
Agree with that completely, If people see Hitler as "Non human" they'll think something like the Holocaust is from ancient history and has no chance of repeating. The human soul can be very dark and vicious and there are no limits to our cruelty even in this day and age. When I see this open racism/hate spew from political level and ordinary people, who justify it with nationalism or whatever, I can not feel anything else than that we are disgracing the memory of all the men and women who lost their lives so we future generations would know better and do better.
 

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I've always struggle to watch it but everyone really should see the 1985 documentary Shoah(The first part in on youtube).
Yeah, it's great. The haircut part is one of the most harrowing things I've seen.
 

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It happens every day, all over the world just in a smaller scale. All over Africa, Burma, Indonesia, Middle East, we even had it in europe just 2 decades ago in the Yugoslavian Civil War. It's scary when the political establishment in several traditionally tolerant countries encourage hate and racism.
You just have to read the comment section in the Mail to realise it's very possible.
 

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Indeed. It seems people think it couldn’t happen again.
Different style and different level but some ethnic/cultural cleansing is happening from Israel towards Palestina. They should learn from its past. Knowing how their ancestors suffered, I don´t know how they are capable to do what they are doing more sneakily and sustained in time for matters of image.
 

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Indeed. It seems people think it couldn’t happen again.
The worrying ones are the deniers, the ones who refuse to believe it even happened that time, or that it was a much more watered down version of what is almost universally accepted.
 

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Different style and different level but some ethnic/cultural cleansing is happening from Israel towards Palestina. They should learn from its past. Knowing how their ancestors suffered, I don´t know how they are capable to do what they are doing more sneakily and sustained in time for matters of image.
One of the more interesting research projects I did while in Uni was on that very topic and how Israel has been doing it since basically the country’s creation (I started with the Deir Yassin massacre).
The worrying ones are the deniers, the ones who refuse to believe it even happened that time, or that it was a much more watered down version of what is almost universally accepted.
It’s worrying to me that those types think that historians just all decided to invent a different reality... for what end...?
 

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One of the more interesting research projects I did while in Uni was on that very topic and how Israel has been doing it since basically the country’s creation (I started with the Deir Yassin massacre).
Yeah, It amazes me how so many people that criticize Palestinian paramilitar attacks (rightly so) from Hezbollah and Hamas branches (and the likes) but they don´t remember the zionist paramilitar acts even before Deir Yassin massacre.

There is a huge hipocrisy within the Israel state and even more when they cry over all the Holocaust, horrific but seeing what they are doing there, they should better shut up.
 

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Different style and different level but some ethnic/cultural cleansing is happening from Israel towards Palestina. They should learn from its past. Knowing how their ancestors suffered, I don´t know how they are capable to do what they are doing more sneakily and sustained in time for matters of image.
Yeah, It amazes me how so many people that criticize Palestinian paramilitar attacks (rightly so) from Hezbollah and Hamas branches (and the likes) but they don´t remember the zionist paramilitar acts even before Deir Yassin massacre.

There is a huge hipocrisy within the Israel state and even more when they cryover all the Holocaust, horrific but seeing what they are doing there, they should better shut up.
It was to be hoped that at least this thread could stay clear of this kind of revisionism. But it usually happens sooner or later.
 

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It was to be hoped that at least this thread could stay clear of this kind of historical revisionism. But it usually happens sooner or later.
I am sorry. For me are havily linked. I don´t think Israel and pro-Israel state (beeing jewish or no) that are the ones that celebrate and reminds us how brutal it was while they are doing what they are doing there, they have the right to remind anything of the holocaust

The Israel state would not exist without the holocaust. And the situation that is hapening with palestina would not happen without the Israel state (and mostly his stance and actions). So the present situation would not exist without the holocaust.

I don´t see the right of the Israel state (yes from jewish people) to make any remembrance day and cry over what happened and show that they are the historical mistreated ones (I don´t see, for example, an Armenian holocaust remembrance day as much reminded as that one) while they are doing what they are doing in their own land. I find it insulting.
 

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One of the more interesting research projects I did while in Uni was on that very topic and how Israel has been doing it since basically the country’s creation (I started with the Deir Yassin massacre).

It’s worrying to me that those types think that historians just all decided to invent a different reality... for what end...?
I've read a few of their pieces, and it ranges from disputing numbers, and general purpose of the camps, to more hard to understand views on there not being any gas chambers.

A lot of people refuse to change their views whatever evidence is placed in front of them. To those few survivors, to hear random historians trying to play it down, when they've experienced it live must bring it all back.
 

Synco

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I am sorry. For me are havily linked. I don´t think Israel and pro-Israel state (beeing jewish or no) that are the ones that celebrate and reminds us how brutal it was while they are doing what they are doing there, they have the right to remind anything of the holocaust

The Israel state would not exist without the holocaust. And the situation that is hapening with palestina would not happen without the Israel state (and mostly his stance and actions). So the present situation would not exist without the holocaust.

I don´t see the right of the Israel state (yes from jewish people) to make any remembrance day and cry over what happened and show that they are the historical mistreated ones (I don´t see, for example, an Armenian holocaust remembrance day as much reminded as that one) while they are doing what they are doing in their own land. I find it insulting.
For now, all I'm going to say is that it takes something to enter a Holocaust Remembrance Day thread and demand that Jews (irrelevant if Israeli or not) "better shut up" about the Holocaust. It's up to each and everyone to estimate how this attitude relates to the remaining contents of your posts.
 

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For now, all I'm going to say is that it takes something to enter a Holocaust Remembrance Day thread and demand that Jews (irrelevant if Israeli or not) "better shut up" about the Holocaust. It's up to each and everyone to estimate how this attitude relates to the remaining contents of your posts.
I repeat. Israeli State (yes it matters differenciate about religion followers and a state) better shut up before they treat better their own citizens that are not from their religion. Yes, Better fecking shut up 1 and a million times
 

Denis79

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I am sorry. For me are havily linked. I don´t think Israel and pro-Israel state (beeing jewish or no) that are the ones that celebrate and reminds us how brutal it was while they are doing what they are doing there, they have the right to remind anything of the holocaust

The Israel state would not exist without the holocaust. And the situation that is hapening with palestina would not happen without the Israel state (and mostly his stance and actions). So the present situation would not exist without the holocaust.

I don´t see the right of the Israel state (yes from jewish people) to make any remembrance day and cry over what happened and show that they are the historical mistreated ones (I don´t see, for example, an Armenian holocaust remembrance day as much reminded as that one) while they are doing what they are doing in their own land. I find it insulting.
Two wrongs don't make a right I agree and I think and hope that we all agree that any atrocity commited on any group of people is equally appaling and unforgivable. I'm not jewish and I don't agree with Israels foreign policies but that doesn't mean I can't feel heartbroken and frightened about the unthinkable things done during the holocaust. I shed a tear just thinking about it. The holocaust should never be forgotten or not talked about for any reason and rightly so.
 
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4bars

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Two wrongs don't make a right I agree and I think and hope that we all agree that any atrocity commited on any group of people is equally appaling and unforgivable. I'm not jewish and I don't agree with Israels foreign policies but that doesn't mean I can't feel heartbroken and frightened about the unthinkable things done during the holocaust. I shed a tear just thinking about it.
I don´t understand the "two wrongs don´t make a right" here. I am not saying that they deserved the holocaust for what they are doing topalestinians. Absolutely not. I am atheist but I would never understand, support or defend any abuse for matters of race, gender, religion and others. What it happened during the holocaust is terrible, needs to be remembered (like any other holocaust) as a respect for the vicitims and to not repeat the mistakes of the past.

What I don´t like at all is when the Israel state celebrates it , and all the victimization (the only vicitims are the killed, the survivours and the families) when they are doing the same in a different way, an ethnic/religious cleansing with the suport of the international comunity. I find this of an extreme Hypocrisy. And no other country celebrates that remembrance day as much as the Israeli state for obvious reasons. Therefore I can´t stand it
 

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I repeat. Israeli State (yes it matters differenciate about religion followers and a state) better shut up before they treat better their own citizens that are not from their religion. Yes, Better fecking shut up 1 and a million times
Then I'm probably telling you news when I say that probably the majority of Jews as individuals have a personal bond to Israel in some way or another. That clear-cut distinction between Israel and worldwide Jewry you make does not exist that way.

Plus the historical comparisons you implicitly draw are textbook Holocaust relativism. Which is a bit of a drag in a thread like this.
 

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Two wrongs don't make a right I agree and I think and hope that we all agree that any atrocity commited on any group of people is equally appaling and unforgivable. I'm not jewish and I don't agree with Israels foreign policies but that doesn't mean I can't feel heartbroken and frightened about the unthinkable things done during the holocaust. I shed a tear just thinking about it.
@Denis79 ok. Problem is, any and all atrocities are not equal. I have my own views on the Zionist state, on the actions of many and various imperialists, a list as long as your arm. But the Holocaust, while it had victims that were not Jews, is a particular case. As that is the subject of this thread, common sense and common decency, and respect for six million overwhelmingly Jewish victims, behoves us to let it rest here. If you want to do what aboutery start it in a different thread. It’s important to remember, and to remember with respect.
 

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Then I'm probably telling you news when I say that probably the majority of Jews as individuals have a personal bond to Israel in some way or another. That clear-cut distinction between Israel and worldwide Jewry you make does not exist that way.

Plus the historical comparisons you implicitly draw are textbook Holocaust relativism. Which is a bit of a drag in a thread like this.
Well, I will not tell you news because I already said it before if you would read more carfully. As I said, the ones that supports the stand of Israel state with the way they act with palestinians, being jews or not, for me they fall in the same sack of hypocrisy. As Israel state I mean the State as government and administration that take the decision of how to act with the palestinian conflict. There are israelian citizens and jewish (with links or not) that they don´t support that actions, but sure you know that
 

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Well, I will not tell you news because I already said it before if you would read more carfully. As I said, the ones that supports the stand of Israel state with the way they act with palestinians, being jews or not, for me they fall in the same sack of hypocrisy. As Israel state I mean the State as government and administration that take the decision of how to act with the palestinian conflict. There are israelian citizens and jewish (with links or not) that they don´t support that actions, but sure you know that
What you're doing here is dividing into good Jews, sharing your views of the ME conflict, thus being "allowed" to remember the Holocaust, and bad Jews, having different views & thus having to "shut up". Where do you take that sense of entitlement from?
 

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What you're doing here is dividing into good Jews, sharing your views of the ME conflict, thus being "allowed" to remember the Holocaust, and bad Jews, having different views & thus having to "shut up". Where do you take that sense of entitlement from?
To make it cleary before there is misunderstandings as you putting words on my typing that i never typed

1- I don´t segregate Jews. You do. I said clearly the ones (jews or not) that agrees with Israelí state policies with the palestinian conflict
2- Any conflict that is unjust, should be MINE, as should be yours and from everyone else
3- I never said Bad (of course not bad jews) or Good. I spoke about hypocrisy. I am hypocrate in some things, and I try to discover when and try to amend it. As everybody else. That does not make us good or bad, just wrong or right. The only culprit here is the Israelí State because they are the ones that implement those policies, the international comunity and the ones that supports them in different degrees, are accomplishes as well as a different degree.

My sense of entitlement? the same sense of entitlement than yours have when you say things like "it takes something to enter a Holocaust Remembrance Day thread and demand..." is called giving my opinion, that it does not mean that is the absolute truth but my only and sole truth that might be or might be not shared. And If I find something outreagous, I will say it and I will demand it as I please, like it or not like it. And if someone with a sense of entitlement like you comes and tells me "the nerve" to have my opinion, I will come back more entitled than before