International Holocaust Remembrance Day

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Denis79, Jan 27, 2018.

  1. Feb 1, 2018
    #81

    Nikhil New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,348
    Location:
    Form is temporary, bans are permanent.
    The Ottoman Empire killed Armenians, Assyrian Christians and Greeks. That should never be forgotten as well. 3 million people were killed in those genocides combined.

    The Hindu Kashmiris, the Kashmiri Pandits, were forced to flee Kashmir in the late 80s and early 90s when militancy was on the ascendancy. Loudspeakers of mosques in Kashmir would blare out that Hindus had to leave the Kashmir Valley immediately. Temples were destroyed, their houses and property were ransacked and many of them were killed. More than half a million Kashmiri Hindus are refugees now in their own country.

    This stuff will never stop unfortunately.
  2. Feb 1, 2018
    #82

    buchansleftleg Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,029
    Location:
    Manchester
    I would heartily recommend Shoah - I saw it at the old cornerhouse in a mammoth session and it was totally overwhelming.

    As others have said we have sadly had genocidal events before and since the dreadful events of the Holocaust.

    For me the thing that marks it out as something different is it was not a spontaneous "tribal" hatred that boiled over after years of oppression, like say in Rwanda or Congo.

    Whilst the Nazis may have risen to power on a wave of racism, the Holocaust was a state sponsored, methodical, bureaucratic activity that continued, even accelerated, at a time when Germany was in desperate need of resources.

    To divert trains from carrying troops to carry people to their deaths at concentration camps just shows the absolute descent into madness that can occur. Shoah gives a glimpse inside that madness that few films have ever been able to capture.
  3. Feb 1, 2018
    #83

    2cents Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,894
  4. Feb 1, 2018
    #84

    Sassy Colin Death or the gladioli!

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Messages:
    50,161
    Location:
    Aliens are in control of my tagline & location
    This statue is on the station platform at Maidenhead and, although I have seen it hundreds of times, because it is on the incoming platform, I never inspected it before. Before Xmas, they had a platform change so that I was on the other platform and has the opportunity to take a closer look. The paper he is reading says 'Kinder Transport' on it, which piqued my interest, so i looked it up the internet and also came across that clip from That's Life.

    [​IMG]

    There is also one at Prague Station:

    [​IMG]

    More reading here:

    http://maidenheadheritage.org.uk/hall-of-fame-2/sir-nicholas-winton/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-11356875
  5. Feb 1, 2018
    #85

    Jippy Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    43,546
    Location:
    Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
    Odd they mix German and English on the paper.
  6. Feb 1, 2018
    #86

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Lisboa
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    I believe it was the name of the operation at the time.
  7. Feb 1, 2018
    #87

    Jippy Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    43,546
    Location:
    Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
    Ah yeah, my bad for not googling before posting.
  8. Feb 1, 2018
    #88

    jackofalltrades Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    2,134
    As a young teenager I read the novel "The Silver Sword" by Ian Serrailier. I don't remember if it's directly related to Jews but it's a magnificent ( young fiction ) novel.
  9. Feb 2, 2018
    #89

    2cents Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,894
    I stand corrected. From the report:

    "Of the 221 antisemitic incidents in 2017 showing ideological motivation or beliefs as well as antisemitism, 140 showed far right motivation or beliefs; 67 showed anti-Israel motivation or beliefs; and 14 showed Islamist motivation or beliefs."

    Should be noted that those 221 incidents make up just 16% of the total incidents accounted for. The whole thing makes interesting reading.
  10. Feb 2, 2018
    #90

    Fearless Mighty Mouse

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,795
    Location:
    The 10" dick club
    As does this...

    https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/British-Muslims-and-Antisemitism.pdf
  11. Feb 2, 2018
    #91

    Synco Lucio's #1 Fan

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,116
    To address the extent of the threat to Jews in recent times, I compiled a list of violent antisemitic incidents in the 21st century. This list is by no means complete of course, although most major attacks should be covered.

    As for the discussion on the origins of recent antisemitic attacks: The majority of the perpetrators here were Islamists or other Muslims with antisemitic attitudes. In the US the majority of perpetrators were Neo-Nazis, with a larger number of Islamist plots (mostly foiled) as well. A clear prevalence of far right perpetrators is probably true for Eastern Europe. Most of the earlier terror attacks (last spoiler) were committed by Palestinian or other Arab terrorists (mainly ANO), the exception being the US again.


    Deadly antisemitic terror incidents and individual murders since 2000


    Non-lethal antisemitic attacks, attempted murders and foiled terror attacks

    https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/aug/16/features11.g2 - see beginning of the article; 1999 incident, so technically pre-2000s

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Synagogue_Adath_Israel_of_Riverdale#2000_Terror_Attack

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Beth_El_(Syracuse,_New_York) - see 2000 arson attack

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Synagogue,_Düsseldorf - see 2000 firebombing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Lyon_car_attack (part of a series of anti-Jewish attacks: https://www.jta.org/2002/04/01/life-religion/features/weekend-of-anti-semitism-in-france )

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anshei_Minsk#Recent_history - see 2002 arson

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_white_supremacist_terror_plot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohel_Jakob_synagogue,_Munich#cite_note-HopeWP-3 - see 2003 bomb plot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite...ntreal#Arson_in_the_elementary_school_library

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Los_Angeles_bomb_plot

    https://forward.com/news/1884/shul-stabbings/

    http://www.spiegel.de/international...against-jews-reported-in-prague-a-441131.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Affair_of_the_Gang_of_Barbarians#Similar_assault - second assault of "Gang of Barbarians" members, the group that killed Ilan Halimi

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite_Association_of_Venezuela - see 2009 attack

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Bronx_terrorism_plot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmö_Synagogue - see 2010 and 2012 incidents

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Manhattan_terrorism_plot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannes-Torcy_cell

    http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Jewish-man-in-Milan-stabbed-outside-of-Kosher-pizzeria-432909

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Nice_stabbing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Kundby_bomb_plot

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...in-court-over-marseille-jewish-teacher-attack

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...er-knife-allahu-akbar-terrorism-a7198991.html

    https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/24/europe/france-paris-assault/index.html

    Antisemitic riots in Europe

    Deadly anti-Semitic terror incidents in the 80s/90s
  12. Feb 3, 2018
    #92

    Chairman Woodie Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2017
    Messages:
    865
  13. Feb 3, 2018
    #93

    Kostur Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    27,631
    Location:
    Poland, Kraków
    One of the very few things our useless government managed not to feck up, kudos to them.
  14. Feb 4, 2018
    #94

    2cents Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,894
    Fine or imprisonment for expressing an opinion - you're not in favor of leaving this kind of thing to the historians?
  15. Feb 4, 2018
    #95

    Kostur Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    27,631
    Location:
    Poland, Kraków
    Context mate, context.

    This legislation has been passed in order to, i.a., stop the 'Polish death camps' campaign which has been 'accidentally' leaking through various media, especially German and Israeli ones.
  16. Feb 4, 2018
    #96

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Lisboa
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    So a random bloke can't be prosecuted for this?
  17. Feb 4, 2018
    #97

    Kostur Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    27,631
    Location:
    Poland, Kraków
    Can, merely pointing out to where it all stems from.
  18. Feb 4, 2018
    #98

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Lisboa
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    Then how can it be good, if a random person can be arrested for saying things? If you start arresting people for saying stuff, you're opening a box you wont be able to close.
  19. Feb 4, 2018
    #99

    Kostur Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    27,631
    Location:
    Poland, Kraków
    You mean like fining/sentencing people for libel, racism, xenophobia, holocaust denial, and so on?
  20. Feb 4, 2018

    Synco Lucio's #1 Fan

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,116
    I haven't really followed this issue - which German ones would that be? The only reports I've come across in local media lately were on this new law, not on any previous anti-Polish campaign. In general I've never seen the idea of 'Polish death camps' being a public thing over here (except for the occasional careless, but not actually agenda-driven use).

    There was a dispute over revisionist depictions in the TV series "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"/"Generation War" in 2016, though. (Polish Home Army soldiers were shown as antisemites, rather than the German main characters.) I haven't seen the series, but what I read about it, and the way I experience the common tendencies of German-produced melodramatic WWII fiction makes me believe the criticism instantly.
  21. Feb 4, 2018

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Lisboa
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    Racism as xenophobia can be considered hate crimes, so there should be legislation against it.

    As for holocaust denial, yes, it's equally stupid to prosecute people for it.

    But from your posts, I get it you don't mind sending people to jail for having stupid opinions.
  22. Feb 4, 2018

    Kostur Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    27,631
    Location:
    Poland, Kraków
    Putting Unsere Mütter, Unsere Väter aside, check for ZDF's use of the term and how they dodged apologising for it. There were more cases, it's the first one that comes to my mind though, most appalling one.
    It's not really 'having stupid opinions', if you call somebody a rapist on the street it's not really a stupid opinion, it's incriminatory and factually false information that's being spread. Holocaust denial, and rightfully so, is prosecuted in many countries all around the world.
  23. Feb 4, 2018

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Lisboa
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    Should things like denying soviet crimes or american crimes also be criminalized, in your opinion? Where do you draw the line?
  24. Feb 4, 2018

    2cents Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,894
    Holocaust denial, and any other matter of historical interpretation, should not be illegal, the state has no business trying to enforce a particular understanding of history.
  25. Feb 4, 2018

    Kostur Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    27,631
    Location:
    Poland, Kraków
    What interpretation? Well quite obviously it does, especially if the country, and by so, state, has severely suffered from the said event. What's next, denying WW II or who was the 'bad guys' there?

    Given that in the context of Poland such crimes have happened, then sure, why not. If, say, somebody tried denying the slavery and all the crimes related to it in the USA, and the state deemed it against the law, then so be it.
  26. Feb 4, 2018

    Eriku Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    13,434
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Totally agree. Those people should be refuted and ridiculed, not penalised.

    This will more likely cause them to conjure up some narrative about oppression of contrary viewpoints, and garner sympathy for their cause from other outsiders.
  27. Feb 4, 2018

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Lisboa
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    If you accept that, I think you're open the society to a kind of logic that can very quickly deteriorate to state oppression.

    Maybe a silly example, but lets say Trump claims that FBI is committing crimes against him and he manages to convince the senate to approve a law that makes it illegal to deny those crimes. Would that be legitimate?

    Or taking the conversation to other issues, would it be legitimate for a state to make it illegal to deny the moon landing? Or deny that the earth is round? Or that vaccines are good for kids?

    Talking and saying things should never be illegal (except of course in cases where that speech might lead to violence). If you go that path it will be very hard to come back.
  28. Feb 4, 2018

    2cents Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,894
    So be it? So whatever the state decides is fine?

    Turkey has laws against describing what happened to the Armenians during WW1 as 'genoicide'. France has an equally ridiculous law forbidding denial of the Armenian genoicide. Which state in this case has the right of it?
  29. Feb 4, 2018

    Kostur Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    27,631
    Location:
    Poland, Kraków
    Well, in this case, where do we draw a line? Why should racist slurs or, say, glorification of Nazism, racism, xenophobia, be deemed as offensive and persecuted by law whereas holocaust denial should be deemed as a 'stupid opinion'?

    No, for some reason you decided to pick one of the most blatant lies peddled for ages by Turkey and now try to contrast it with an irrefutable mass genocide that should never be denied or questioned. As I've said, going by your logic, we should soon start questioning or denying WWII or who took part in it.
  30. Feb 4, 2018

    Synco Lucio's #1 Fan

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,116
    I read up on it now; while the criticism on the usage of the term is certainly justified, I don't think the usage itself was more than a faux pas. Tendera's anger is understandable, but the ensuing sentence of having to post an apology on the website for one month still seems rather unusual. I can also imagine singular instances of German over-defensiveness in similar circumstances happening from time to time, that attitude still exists.

    But as far as I know mainstream politics/media over here, there is no anti-Polish campaign at all. Basically no one in official culture is challenging the fact the death camps were German camps located in Poland, or advocates calling them 'Polish'.

    From the outside, it looks more like this law is about an inner-Polish struggle over national narratives.
  31. Feb 4, 2018

    2cents Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,894
    No, going by my logic nobody should be prosecuted for doing so.
  32. Feb 4, 2018

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Lisboa
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    I don't think racist or xenophobe slurs or being a nazi and saying nazi things should be illegal. Only cases where people are acting on those opinions, by discriminating people or inciting violence or discrimination against other people. If you are a racist and you go around saying racist things, you pay a social price, there's no need to bring the law into it.

    As for the examples I give, do you think a sovereign state would have the legitimacy to make it illegal to deny those things?
  33. Apr 12, 2018

    2cents Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,894
    Today is Yom haShoah, here is how they mark it in Israel: