Is anybody backtracking?

[sullydnl]

They wouldn't have had to deal with anything because they would have had the players respect from day 1.

They wouldn't be doing stupid shite like reading self help books in front of the lads( just an example).

True, they'd have walked in to a squad that already respected them but problems will always arise and players will always step out of line at some point. You have to deal with it when it happens.

Take SAF, for example. Everyone respected him, yet he still felt he had to get rid of the likes of Keane, Beckham, and RvN when he felt they stepped out of line.

Same thing with any new manager. You've got do be able to deal with the big personalities when they turn on you. So if you're a new manager coming into this club you're going to be very aware of who the powerful dressing room figures are, even if you have their respect in the beginning.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

If he didn't want the 2 players we brought in (i some what agree) then he was doomed from the start, as he wasn't strong enough it seems i doubt Ferguson would sign a player he didn't want. No doubt he wanted a fabregas or similar but personally i thought he approached last summer way too relaxed, this wasn't everton where he could wait until the last few days of the window to pick up a bargain. He should have been in working with woodword on targets and transfers the day after evertons last game to ensure we got bids in early and signed players up before pre season and to maximize the time available in the summer window.

Then in january he should have made some signings, we could have made a push for the top 4 and who knows he may have still been in a job as we speak, but it was all too indecisive i don't think he appreciated he could actually get sacked especially in january, i think he put too much faith in that 6 year contract the fact it had clauses should have let him know it was a PR tool.




Well yeah fair point, i wrote in history for effect what i really meant was he spent more than SAF ever did in a season. I think the most Ferguson spent was £50m, Moyes spent £65m i won't count Zaha since dave didn't like the lad for some reason.

The most SAF spent was 63M last season, which goes to show how value is going up. That said, it was on seven players.

 

[CantonaGiggs1]

True, they'd have walked in to a squad that already respected them but problems will always arise and players will always step out of line at some point. You have to deal with it when it happens.

Take SAF, for example. Everyone respected him, yet he still felt he had to get rid of the likes of Keane, Beckham, and RvN when he felt they stepped out of line.

Same thing with any new manager. You've got do be able to deal with the big personalities when they turn on you. So if you're a new manager coming into this club you're going to be very aware of who the powerful dressing room figures are, even if you have their respect in the beginning.

I agree.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Why are people still defending this man? They still have blind faith even after being sacked lol.

Loads of managers get sacked. The average managerial job in the EPL is 14 months.

 

[CantonaGiggs1]

Loads of managers get sacked. The average managerial job in the EPL is 14 months.

So?

 

[sullydnl]

Moyes dropped and fined Welbeck, Cleverley and Young the other day for going out and getting drunk. I'm sure he dropped Young after diving too. He certainly give him a warning anyway.

They're not exactly powerful figures though, are they? The likes of Giggs, Vidic, Ferdinand, RvP, Rooney and Evra are the leaders in this dressing room. You've either got to get them onside or deal with them when they turn against you.

Moyes seems to have had the support of Evra, he bought the support of Rooney by making him the main man, but Rio, Vidic, RvP and Giggs were problems he wasn't able to deal with and they're the ones who eventually undermined him. I'm sure any new manager coming in will know they're the dangerous figures he has to either win over or ship out.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

So?

So it shouldn't be too hard to work out that Moyes could be successful at another club.

AVB won the treble with Porto, went to Chelsea and Spurs and was poor. That's not to say he's a bad manager. It just didn't work out for him.

 

[Ubik]

Debatable that we were even in for Thiago but lets pretend for a minute we were, this happened when he had just walked in to the club and still needed time to assess the squad and give them a chance to impress. Also that 1st transfer window was a huge mess, New executive, new manager and it was all right when there was a preseason tour under way. i still think slagging Moyes off with respect to that transfer window shows a complete lack of understanding of how much of a hinderance all the peripheral issues would have been. He walked in to a hospital pass with respect to the 1st transfer window.

The BBC reports that we had him (and others) lined up and ready, only for Moyes to dither. Daniel Taylor, one of Woodward's preferred journos to brief, reports the same. Anyone that has watched any english football in the last few years knew our midfield needed improvement, and Paul Scholes had just retired. If you needed more time to judge whether Thiago Alcantara would be a good signing, you're in the wrong job.

 

[Bury Red]

My problem isn't that he should have commanded the respect of the players from Day 1, but that some of the players seem to have consciously withheld their respect from Day 1 because they believed themselves better than the man appointed to manage them. It's the self respect of these so called winners and the damage they have done to the respect I once had for them that I'm debating.

If he didn't want the 2 players we brought in (i some what agree) then he was doomed from the start, as he wasn't strong enough it seems i doubt Ferguson would sign a player he didn't want. No doubt he wanted a fabregas or similar but personally i thought he approached last summer way too relaxed, this wasn't everton where he could wait until the last few days of the window to pick up a bargain. He should have been in working with woodword on targets and transfers the day after evertons last game to ensure we got bids in early and signed players up before pre season and to maximize the time available in the summer window.

I'll see your doubt and raise you one fat Aussie coke head of a goalkeeper.

I agree with you that he was a bit too relaxed and probably too soft for the job and that is the main reason he had to go.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

They're not exactly powerful figures though, are they? The likes of Giggs, Vidic, Ferdinand, RvP, Rooney and Evra are the leaders in this dressing room. You've either got to get them onside or deal with them when they turn against you.

Moyes seems to have had the support of Evra, he bought the support of Rooney by making him the main man, but Rio, Vidic, RvP and Giggs were problems he wasn't able to deal with and they're the ones who eventually undermined him. I'm sure any new manager coming in will know they're the dangerous figures he has to either win over or ship out.

Well Rio and Giggs are probably retiring, Vidic is leaving and RVP always injured so shouldn't be much of a problem for the new manager.

 

[CantonaGiggs1]

So it shouldn't be too hard to work out that Moyes could be successful at another club.

AVB won the treble with Porto, went to Chelsea and Spurs and did poorly. That's not to say he's a bad manager. It just didn't work out for him.

"Success" at another club(stable mediocrity at midtable), yes, success in a big club, NEVER.

We will never find out anyway because no big club would be insane enough to hire him.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

"Success" at another club(stable mediocrity at midtable), yes, success in a big club, NEVER.

We will never find out anyway because no big club would be insane enough to hire him.

Ok, you made your point. Goodnight.

 

[CantonaGiggs1]

My problem isn't that he should have commanded the respect of the players from Day 1, but that some of the players seem to have consciously withheld their respect from Day 1 because they believed themselves better than the man appointed to manage them. It's the self respect of these so called winners and the damage they have done to the respect I once had for them that I'm debating.



I'll see your doubt and raise you one fat Aussie coke head of a goalkeeper.

I agree with you that he was a bit too relaxed and probably too soft for the job and that is the main reason he had to go.

If I were you I would stop insulting our current players in every post.

 

[stevoc]

The most SAF spent was 63M last season, which goes to show how value is going up. That said, it was on seven players.

By my count we signed 5 who am i missing out?

Van Persie £24,000,000
Kagawa £14,000,000
Powell £6,600,000
Henriquez £4,800,000
Buttner £4,400,000

Total £53,800,000

 

[BorisontheRock]

I think the dynamic that some are forgetting here is that whilst Moyes deserved the respect of the players (because solely of fergies endorsement), the players equally deserved the respect of Moyes, that's not to say he should have been subservient to them but he needed to respect RVPs unique training plan, rio, vidic and Evras experience in defending Scholes and giggs thoughts on how the attacking game should be played. SAF was willing to take on board these things so Moyes should have had the humility to do the same. It seems he steamed in, played the big man and lost from day one. Telling rio and vidic how jagielka plays, esp seeing as rio was bombed out of the England squad and replaced by jagielka must rankle. To be overtrained when RVP has finally had two good years injury free must rankle. To train defensive plays after 20+ years of attacking football must make the old heads wonder if this guys knows where he's at.

Respect is a two way street, seems Moyes gave no respect so got his just desserts. The guys he did respect were the subservient quieter players that were on the fringes of the squad, young, Valencia he put his faith in them which must have raised questions.

Despite the stories, I feel no need to backtrack. The sacking itself, the delivery, seems poor on the outside, but for him to not see it coming, geez he really was in his own world. He deserved the boot, the timing was right, things were getting wiser and had we got to the summer the only way Moyes would have rectified this situation would be to remove any personality and voice, leaving us with a poorer squad

I think for the champions league (bar one or two games) I think professional pride kicked in a la Chelsea, and the players pulled together to get us as far as we went, I guess it makes you wonder why the didn't do that for the league or cups!

It seems Moyes and his staff cut isolated figures, for sure they could have had a better transition, more help, the players could have been more respectful, but I think Moyes made his own bed and was ultimately master of his own downfall.

It amazes me we still have muppets wanting to give Moyes more time after what we saw on the pitch and the stories behind his relationships.... It proves it was the right call, yet folk would rather we sack the first team. Great plan that!! Some of the Johnny come latelys have no clue how football clubs work in reality, just because they sack their football manager squads and buy Barcelona/real players they think it translates to real life. Proper managers manage the playing staff they are given, not create a wish list of new players... And to think we thought Moyes was the cheap option!!!

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

By my count we signed 5 who am i missing out?

Van Persie £24,000,000
Kagawa £14,000,000
Powell £6,600,000
Henriquez £4,800,000
Buttner £4,400,000

Total £53,800,000

Zaha, who SAF signed in January and loaned back to Crystal Palace.

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/manchester-united-transfers.html

 

[stevoc]

I'll see your doubt and raise you one fat Aussie coke head of a goalkeeper.

Good point that may have been one he didn't want, wasn't bosnich signed by edwards while SAF was on holiday? Once he returned he signed taibi as well. That was a funny period between edwards and ferguson if i remember correctly, Edwards & Kidd tried to stall the yorke signing the year before and wanted to sign hartson instead but Fergie put his foot down Yorke was signed and a few months later Kidd was gone.

 

[stevoc]

Zaha, who SAF signed in January and loaned back to Crystal Palace.

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/manchester-united-transfers.html

Zaha doesn't really count in my book he was signed for the season after , but we can agree to disagree. But Zaha would make 6 who was the other one?

 

[Stack]

By my count we signed 5 who am i missing out?

Van Persie £24,000,000
Kagawa £14,000,000
Powell £6,600,000
Henriquez £4,800,000
Buttner £4,400,000

Total £53,800,000

Does the young Uruguaun come into this? I think Moyes maybe signed him?. Name begins with a V?

 

[IrishLegend]

No Trophies
No CL Group Stage experience
No Experience Handling Big Budgets / Signings
No Experience Managing world class players / big egos
Terrible Away record against big teams
No Experience at a top level club

He's a nice guy but this is the biggest Job in football. If he's the best we can get then it's a sad day for our club.

Is what I said back when he was appointed or when it was suggested he was getting the job. So no back tracking here. It's funny that when he was appointed anyone who had doubts was shouted down. We were rewarded with the worst football United has seen in a looooong time.

Didn't know about Moyes dithering Dave nickname before he was sacked but that explains a lot.

 

[NK86]

Moyes went with Felllaini because he failed with more or less everyone else. Was never his first choice and wanted a ball player like Cesc, hence the numerous bids.

If that was the case, why on earth did we keep bidding ridiculously low amounts for both Fellaini and Baines. In the end we decided to deal with the two transfers separately and only ended up getting Fellaini for an extortionate figure.

Mata, although a top player, in my opinion, was a signing to show we can compete in the transfer market, due to the Summer being such a sham.

Again, this is based on nothing. Just fits in with your narrative that Moyes was not helped in the transfer window. Sure we didn't do great but Moyes has to take the majority blame there. Pursuing Fabregas for a month with derisory bids, when Barca had JUST sold Thiago, was stupid to say the least. He made his bed, so he cannot complain.

 

[MoskvaRed]

6 pages of debate on Moyes's sacking? It was the most obvious, deserved sacking by a major club that I can remember. And putting a mid-table manager with no track record of success in charge of a dressing room full of multi-trophy winning alpha males was always asking for trouble, even more so when trusted intermediaries likes Phelan were dismissed. It really was history repeating, the tragedy of post-Busby (poor Wilf losing his hair overnight) replaced by post-Fergie farce (Feck Off Round with his set plays book).

 

[Danny1982]

this is not aimed at the anti moyes brigade that discuss things like schoolchildren and nor do i mean a complete change in opinion, but now that its been done do any people who were on the fence or just convinced he should go have different thoughts on the matter?

I read a telegraph article stating the board were impressed by what he was doing behind the scenes and the scouting all over europe was clearly part of rebuilding due to take place this summer.

And now hes gone there are talks of unsavoury and frankly disgraceful behaviour from some players. whoever is in charge, i dont want those players at united, and who knows? maybe moyes was about to say goodbye to rio and anybody else he thought was a bad influence.

i always thought he should stay another year, but as the dust settles and we begin the difficult process of starting from scratch and people can remove their emotions a bit more, how do people feel? any different?

I think the only people who should change their position are the pro-Moyes fans who kept coming with imaginary excuses (like the board and SAF are still 100% behind him) just to defend Moyes' failures.

Also, it has been reported that we were struggling to attract very good players in the Summer, something which Moyes did hint at during his last days with us. So let's quit that non-sense about him being on the verge of "re-building a great team".

And about the respect thing, you don't put a clown in the dressing room and then try to force everybody to respect him.

 

[sglowrider]

Moyes' legacy is that of a record breaker.

 

[Ducklegs]

According to reports players started having doubts within the first few weeks as they didn't think his training methods were right for a club like Manchester United, again with Giggs sharing the opinion. Apparently there was very little focus on attacking play, ball control or anything like that, Moyes was more concerned with fitness and positioning.

If Moyes wanted to convince the squad to perform he'd basically have had to change his whole approach. Plus even if he did that he had already lost their respect, something that's very difficult to win back.

One of the first things we said in the newbs was that the players looked like they were not doing anything with the ball during training.

Our passing, off the ball movement, use of space, while at times not great towards the end of Fergies reign sometimes, was completely off from day one under Moyes.

 

[RoadTrip]

One of the first things we said in the newbs was that the players looked like they were not doing anything with the ball during training.

Our passing, off the ball movement, use of space, while at times not great towards the end of Fergies reign sometimes, was completely off from day one under Moyes.

Whilst that may be true and certainly would have an impact, players don't forget how to pass and move and use space over summer. The gulf in quality is too big to attribute it all to this. That's why a portion comes down to bad training, a portion comes down to Moyes inability to motivate, a portion to lack of confidence etc. and probably a portion due to players not giving it their all.

 

[Galactic]

How do you know he tried his best? and so sure he has clear plan for next season?
Why do you desperately want to see him having huge success in other team?
Are you related to Moyes?

I think he did try his best. He did all he could from the way he tried various things with the squad. But sadly, he tried far too many things but not the right ones. He definitely have a clear plan, but we all know planning is one thing. I think he's an intelligent guy. Maybe not a genius, but at least a fairly smart one. Just a guess from what he has done at Preston and Everton. But again, it is not enough at a club like us.

I dont have to be related to him to wanting him to be successful. I just feel that, as a human being, he deserves more than the many abuses he received in the last months. A very decent success after this should make it up for him. Like it or not, he has a relation with United already, albeit a short and terrible one.

 

[Ducklegs]

Whilst that may be true and certainly would have an impact, players don't forget how to pass and move and use space over summer. The gulf in quality is too big to attribute it all to this. That's why a portion comes down to bad training, a portion comes down to Moyes inability to motivate, a portion to lack of confidence etc. and probably a portion due to players not giving it their all.

Absolutely, you dont forget entirely how to do it, but it is something that needs constant work at the elite level, instinct and muscle memory gets you so far, but not all the way.

If you think that the first thing we heard about our new training regime was that the squad was being put through extensive fitness work all summer, then extensive defensive work as the results dropped off you can see how our continual neglect of the technical side of the game started to effect us.

The lads could of feasibly had 3 months without significant technical coaching by the start of the season, which just got worse as the season went on.

 

[Cal?]

Where am I blaming our players for Moyes' failings?

I'm saying that any new manager would do very well to look very carefully at the treacherous bunch of bastards who sank the previous manager. They're players and the fact that many of them have clearly stopped playing this season would have me questioning why we were still paying them.

The United players are employed by United, not Moyes, he has no given right to their loyalty, the players driving him out have United's best interest at heart.

 

[Revan]

Yes of course. I was convinced that Moyes is shit from the beginning and I was proven completely right in all things about him.

So naturally, I have to backtrack.

#saveMoyes
#Moyes4eva

Edit: I also thought that Bayern was the best team in the world last season until they thrashed Barca and won the treble. Then I backtracked and thought that they were shit. That's how it works, isn't it?!

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

The United players are employed by United, not Moyes, he has no given right to their loyalty, the players driving him out have United's best interest at heart.

What about the fans paying high prices for tickets to watch said matches? Any feeling on where they stand? Was that good of the players for them?

 

[Cal?]

What about the fans paying high prices for tickets to watch said matches? Any feeling on where they stand? Was that good of the players for them?

Moyes' tactics or lack thereof have a much bigger influence of matches than what his players think of him.

Regardless of what you perceive to be their lack of effort, statistics show United player run just as much as any side if not more.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

You'd prefer they had another season of drudgery and failure under Moyes?

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Moyes' tactics or lack thereof have a much bigger influence of matches than what his players think of him.

Regardless of what you perceive to be their lack of effort, statistics show United player run just as much as any side if not more.

Yep. It was 100% Moyes. Nothing else happened. I think you've nailed the same point you've made 5,000,000,000,000,000 times on the boards.

 

[Revan]

Yep. It was 100% Moyes. Nothing else happened. I think you've nailed the same point you've made 5,000,000,000,000,000 times on the boards.

And you nailed the opposite point the same number of times. He was right, you wrong, deal with it instead of clauming a moral victory which never exists.

 

[Cal?]

Yep. It was 100% Moyes. Nothing else happened. I think you've nailed the same point you've made 5,000,000,000,000,000 times on the boards.

Not 100%, probably 98%, the remaining 2% Woodward not telling Moyes to come up with alternative targets.

 

[friendlytramp]

The amount of control and bullying by the players is disturbing and seems like he never had a chance. Maybe with more time and an opportunity to clear out he could have turned things around...not sure buying big names is the way to do that though, and not sure anything less would have been good enough. He would have needed 5or6 years to rebuild the whole team into his own and unfortunately that's too long and probably would have only been about as good as (moyes') Everton. On the whole the decision had to be made, next manager can't let the players have the power, or needs to be giggs +

 

[gasmanc]

A manger is always going to lose when it's a case of replacing half a squad or one man it's a no brainer, United are not unique in this situation, the players have the closest link to the manager and his staff and are possibly in the best position to judge. We're seemingly not talking about one or two renegades here either, Moyes had lost more players than is reasonable to replace, why he lost those players is not yet 100% confirmed but the training methods, and negativity seems to be at the forefront.
It's not financially viable for a club to replace so many playing staff in order to speculate as to whether one man, who was showing not one inkling of a plan, can make a success of his time, this is a results business not a school of big time management and Moyes failed to manage his playing staff, failed to manage the coaching correctly, failed to address the core weakness in the team in two transfer windows despite record spending and the plain simple truth is that he failed Manchester United.

 

[Revan]

This whole attempted change of focus onto Moyes being the good guy and the players/club being the nasties is a bit too revisionist for me. The reason he was sacked was simply because he was clearly not suited to the post and not achieving - that's why he's gone. The results were unbelievably bad and no fog of how he was sacked or the process will hide the fact that he was hopelessly out of his depth.

The last attempt to turn a loss into a moral win from SER19 and co. A candidate for the worst thread of the year, too.

 

[Andrew~]

I'm definitely backtracking. Saint Moyes was sacked for our sins, and will rise again on the third season.

Amen.