Is anybody backtracking?

NK86

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If we activated his buy out clause we would have got him, though. As it is, we didn't, and failed to get anyone but Fellaini. That said, like @NK86 said, Moyes should have done a lot better with the current squad. However, I feel he would've been a lot better prepared this Summer, as opposed to last.
I doubt Fabregas would have wanted to come. Plus I don't even know what his buy out clause is. Aren't they ridiculously high normally? Or were you talking about Herrera?

About this summer, yes he would have been better prepared to get his targets. But his style of play has been so distinctly awful that it would be difficult to see how he would have improved that. Maybe the brilliance of the new signings might have carried us to the top 4 but that should not be our primary aim anyway.
 

Drummer

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Agreed. The players should have stood by and done nothing as Moyes and his incompetent Everton staff valiantly tried to tear down everything Ferguson achieved for this football club. Desperately disappointed the players lacked the dignity to stand by Moyes' visionary work.
Are you saying a team just looks on and knowingly let the captain take his ship down?
So footballers are employed to dictate/decide what kind of manager a club has ?
 

MoskvaRed

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So footballers are employed to dictate/decide what kind of manager a club has ?
Any boss/manager in any work environment will depend on his ability to motivate his team. I don't know what you really expect them to do - many of them are aware of what is needed at the very top (Champions League winners) and the others have all won the league. And suddenly they were faced with a manager and coaching team horribly out of their depth. Should they just say yes to whatever mediocre ideas Moyes and Round came up with even though they know from experience that mid-table tactics don't work at the top of the table while they waste a year of their career?
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I doubt Fabregas would have wanted to come. Plus I don't even know what his buy out clause is. Aren't they ridiculously high normally? Or were you talking about Herrera?

About this summer, yes he would have been better prepared to get his targets. But his style of play has been so distinctly awful that it would be difficult to see how he would have improved that. Maybe the brilliance of the new signings might have carried us to the top 4 but that should not be our primary aim anyway.
Ye I was talking about Herrera. I think his buy out was 32M.

And as for whether Moyes style would have changed, I guess we will never know, unfortunately.
 

Drummer

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Any boss/manager in any work environment will depend on his ability to motivate his team. I don't know what you really expect them to do - many of them are aware of what is needed at the very top (Champions League winners) and the others have all won the league. And suddenly they were faced with a manager and coaching team horribly out of their depth. Should they just say yes to whatever mediocre ideas Moyes and Round came up with even though they know from experience that mid-table tactics don't work at the top of the table while they waste a year of their career?
Any company I have ever worked in has had sh*tty managers. I worked and went home. Did the same days work for the different employers.

Different people work better/worse under different environments. Its not all one way on this topic. People are getting all angry because it suits them to blame DM for everything as if the players were acting in some way for the greater good of the club.

I don't mind players raising concerns within the club but it was clear that some weren't prepared to remain quite and whether it was Rio using twitter or RVP using his dutch friends (coachs/other managers), its not the way I want united run.
 

MoskvaRed

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Any company I have ever worked in has had sh*tty managers. I worked and went home. Did the same days work for the different employers.

Different people work better/worse under different environments. Its not all one way on this topic. People are getting all angry because it suits them to blame DM for everything as if the players were acting in some way for the greater good of the club.

I don't mind players raising concerns within the club but it was clear that some weren't prepared to remain quite and whether it was Rio using twitter or RVP using his dutch friends (coachs/other managers), its not the way I want united run.
I will give you the last part - going public does not help matters. As for your experiences, I think elite level sport is a bit different in that the direct impact of the manager is much more noticeable than a normal job (selection, formation etc). Plus, speaking personally, I have always found it hard to stay focused when working for someone I didn't respect.
 

Sultan

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So footballers are employed to dictate/decide what kind of manager a club has ?
Do you have any reason to believe they underperformed deliberately? Can you show me any instances where players have openly rebelled? The players despite what has happened have generally behaved well and kept any issues in house.
 

Drummer

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I will give you the last part - going public does not help matters. As for your experiences, I think elite level sport is a bit different in that the direct impact of the manager is much more noticeable than a normal job (selection, formation etc). Plus, speaking personally, I have always found it hard to stay focused when working for someone I didn't respect.
But that's you, its fair to say not all sports people are the same, likewise not all people are motivated in the same manner . .

I don't completely disagree with you, but likewise I don't think its excusable to not perform and blame it on a coach. Januzai, Rooney, De Gea were able to be consistently good for most of the season. It doesn't make DM a good manager, but it shows that players can still perform to a high level consistently if they really apply themselves. If a player needs a manager to motivate them to win, then they are simply lacking that attribute in their game. Its not an insult, just an observation.
 

dave2528

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But that's you, its fair to say not all sports people are the same, likewise not all people are motivated in the same manner . .

I don't completely disagree with you, but likewise I don't think its excusable to not perform and blame it on a coach. Januzai, Rooney, De Gea were able to be consistently good for most of the season. It doesn't make DM a good manager, but it shows that players can still perform to a high level consistently if they really apply themselves. If a player needs a manager to motivate them to win, then they are simply lacking that attribute in their game. Its not an insult, just an observation.
That said, how much (or little) credit do you think SAF deserves for the success of this team while he was in charge?
 

stevoc

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My only concern is that the likes of Young & Cleverley will be given another season to impress the new manager.
Worth it to get rid of the dithering one.

Young was going nowhere anyway with the contract hes reportedly on, no club with sense would pay him what we do.
 

stevoc

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His signing remains a very strange one, right from day one. Easy to forget that.
Agree i liked him at villa he was a good productive player, we havent seen that here. But even at that the fee and wages were high considering he only had a year on his contract left.

I mean if he had 3 years left on his contract how much would we have paid for him, if we paid £18m for him with one left?
 

Jaapster

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But that's you, its fair to say not all sports people are the same, likewise not all people are motivated in the same manner . .

I don't completely disagree with you, but likewise I don't think its excusable to not perform and blame it on a coach. Januzai, Rooney, De Gea were able to be consistently good for most of the season. It doesn't make DM a good manager, but it shows that players can still perform to a high level consistently if they really apply themselves. If a player needs a manager to motivate them to win, then they are simply lacking that attribute in their game. Its not an insult, just an observation.
Januzaj was a young lad promoted to the first team, trust me he would have washed moyes car if he thought that impressed him , Rooney lets not go there his dads gone now, and De Gea , Goalkeepers are a different breed and out of all this chris woods has done a cracking job with him , Yes a player does need a manager to motivate them, if not then why have a manager in the first place .
 

Drummer

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That said, how much (or little) credit do you think SAF deserves for the success of this team while he was in charge?
How much of the success of the last few seasons has been down to SAF ? On this seasons evidence, I would say a lot . .

Do you really think that this bunch of players should need a world class manager to beat Newcastle or West Brom at home ? Its one thing being outplayed by City or Liverpool, its another letting teams with inferior players play you off the park. That's not simply tactics, its application.

I also find it interesting that despite RVPs clear dislike of DM, he still had an impressive goal per game tally . .
 

bishblaize

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How much of the success of the last few seasons has been down to SAF ? On this seasons evidence, I would say a lot . .

Do you really think that this bunch of players should need a world class manager to beat Newcastle or West Brom at home ? Its one thing being outplayed by City or Liverpool, its another letting teams with inferior players play you off the park. That's not simply tactics, its application.

I also find it interesting that despite RVPs clear dislike of DM, he still had an impressive goal per game tally . .

Players can perform for managers they don't like, its just some players are lazy and need managers like SAF to scare the f**k out of them to do their job.

Fergie did scare, but he also inspired in equal measure. Players were scared to disappoint him and desperate to please him. A potent mix.
 

Sarni

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But if Woodward activated Herrera's buy out clause, instead of going with like 5-6M leass, surely we would have got him.
How do we know it wasn't Moyes who put such valuation on Herrera? We don't. We know very little about how these transfer work.
 

Sultan

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I also find it interesting that despite RVPs clear dislike of DM, he still had an impressive goal per game tally . .
It's actually better ratio per minute that last year.

That's his professionalism. Exactly what you've been slating the players lacking in this thread.
 

Revan

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I think RvP's goals mask a general decrease in the standards he set last season.

Obviously, injuries haven't helped. Makes you wonder if that Dutch knob-head fitness coach might have had a point though.
I guess we'll see next season. If he doesn't get injured it would be hard to not blame Moyes for his injuries considering that he admitted to have overtrained him, and then played him when everybody could see that he wasn't fit.
 

Sultan

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I think RvP's goals mask a general decrease in the standards he set last season.

Obviously, injuries haven't helped. Makes you wonder if that Dutch knob-head fitness coach might have had a point though.
Without the goals his overall contribution to games has definitely been virtually non existent.

Has RvP's injuries been muscle related or impact?
 

Sultan

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I guess we'll see next season. If he doesn't get injured it would be hard to not blame Moyes for his injuries considering that he admitted to have overtrained him, and then played him when everybody could see that he wasn't fit.
I was under the impression he had a designated personal trainer.
 

Revan

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Without the goals his overall contribution to games has definitely been virtually non existent.

Has RvP's injuries been muscle related or impact?
I read something ridiculous that he had like 8 injuries this season. I don't know what that means and if they were muscle related, though from a complete amateur like me it looks like it might have been a mismanagement. Someone like @Stack might know better, and give with a better conclusion then me.
 

Sultan

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I read something ridiculous that he had like 8 injuries this season. I don't know what that means and if they were muscle related, though from a complete amateur like me it looks like it might have been a mismanagement. Someone like @Stack might know better, and give with a better conclusion then me.
Pogues a doctor.
 

apotheosis

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My opinion changed as the season went on, not sure if you call that backtracking though. Opinions are meant to change with circumstance and knowledge aren't they?
Mine too. I was all for giving moyes a chance, based mostly on SAF's certainty that he would come good in the end. But i would have accepted, and probably expected, a temporary downturn while a new philosophy or methodology was being introduced, but i saw no indications that we were transitioning to anything positive. It all looked increasingly desperate, and it was plain to see that whatever vision moyes had attempted to transmit to the players simply hadn't convinced them.

Convincing the players and steadily building confidence is simply a must. We surely should have expected some sort of improved performances and results as the season progressed, which would have gone a long way to winning over the fans. He couldn't achieve this unfortunately, and the end for Moyes became just a matter of time. Glad the Glazers acted swiftly, no point in dragging out an already damaging situation. They could have handled it better of course, but in the end it was a decision most fans would agree with.
 

gasmanc

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True hes been using his mates in the media to push his agenda about our squad needing a rebuild all season.

Listened to a radio show with Pat Nevin yesterday (friend of Moyes) and he kept banging on about the rebuild that moyes will never get the chance to complete. He even said SAF agreed with Moyes that the squad needs completely rebuilt, i somehow doubt Ferguson thinks that if i am honest. Even now when hes out of a job the bullshit continues.
Yea he's been peddling propaganda about the squad to the media all season and yet when the club feed him to the journos he's not best pleased, wouldn't be at all surprised if it was a parting shot of his own medicine from the club.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I was under the impression he had a designated personal trainer.
Think he's used to looking after his own training. Listening to his own body, if you will. Apparently that's how he overcame his sicknote status at Arsenal.

Lots of rumours that Moyes had a "one size fits all" approach to fitness. Which pissed Van Persie off. No idea if there's any truth to them.
 

stevoc

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Yea he's been peddling propaganda about the squad to the media all season and yet when the club feed him to the journos he's not best pleased, wouldn't be at all surprised if it was a parting shot of his own medicine from the club.
Wouldn't surprise me to be honest, and he deserves a some of it after the way he has spoke about the players, staff & saying SAF would struggle to try to deflect attention from his own failings.

With all the stuff coming out whether true or not it does tell us one thing he was not well liked by a lot of people at carrington and the club it seems.
 

lem8sh

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Agreed. The players should have stood by and done nothing as Moyes and his incompetent Everton staff valiantly tried to tear down everything Ferguson achieved for this football club. Desperately disappointed the players lacked the dignity to stand by Moyes' visionary work.
They should have put in 100% for this club, the club that provides their extraordinate wages and for the fans who when it boils down to it, pays these wages. So what do you think they should do? Stop trying? Well that's what some of them have done and it's an absolute disgrace. They have been cheating the supporters who spend their hard earned cash to follow them here and abroad.
 
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adexkola

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I've had time to gather my mostly useless thoughts on the whole thing.

Backtracking? Not me.

My feelings about Moyes' appointment was influenced by my strong opinion that for the last 2 seasons prior to his arrival, we were in need of a massive squal overhaul. We threw away the league to City, and we patched over the gaping holes in our nonexistent midfield and aging defense by signing Van Persie. He was our only attacker in great form, with our other attackers all struggling for form and at best being annoyingly inconsistent. Our midfield had Carrick and a bunch of journeymen. The defense had slipped from the great standards set a few years ago. Grooming the young defenders has been a pain.

I also maintain that all our rivals underperformed. Liverpool had a strong end to last season but early season troubles meant they finished outside the top 4. Arsenal was being Arsenal, City dropped a few levels after their league, Chelsea failed to build on their Champions League triumph. It was clear that eventually some teams would get their act together, and I believe that even with SAF at the top, without major adjustments we would struggle to make top 4. Opinions...

I didn't have any strong preferences for successors to SAF. Mourinho was/is an attention seeking buffoon, so I wasn't excited at the prospect of landing him. When Moyes was appointed, I believe/d that the selection wasn't because he was "Scottish", but because of his merits and accomplishments at Everton. Some people on here and in the press have written off his deeds as overrated, but I think he did an excellent job with Everton. Given all this, I wanted him to be given until December this year to prove himself. As the season progressed, I came to the conclusion I would stick with the board's decision.

With the wreck of a season behind us, here is what I now think about my prior thoughts. I think there is plenty blame to go around.

With Moyes, he seemed incapable of seeing the futility of Valencia and Young on the wing. He couldn't get Kagawa into the team sooner. He shunted our young players around at the expense of older players who didn't give a feck (more on this). The transfer window fiasco ending up with Fellaini. Giving Rooney a huge contract. I'm never one to read into press conferences and armchair psychology and all that, that is the domain of idiots who still believe Ferguson hypnotized Benitez into giving away the league. Judging him on performances, he failed. He couldn't get the job done. He was hardworking, honest, likeable, but he couldn't cut it. Maybe things would be better if we waited until December. Maybe he should have been fired soon. No one knows the impact. But I can't say the board wasn't patient, they have been more than patient. So he failed. That's not an inditment on his overall career as a manager, and I look forward to his return to management. I'm sure he'll learn from this experience, and I wish him the best. I'm quietly confident he'll get another big shot, everyone loves a comeback.

With the board, they didn't make the right appointment. Hindsight is 20/20, but Ancelotti would have been a better option. Better than Moyes. I don't think they did proper research into each candidates' qualifications. Hopefully they have learned from the past year. Woodward's opening months were weird, to say the least. He seems to be improving. Still has some way to go to reach Gill's level. I hope the Glazers stay out of the football side of things. They should appoint knowledgeable people that know the sport and environment, and stick to balancing the books and providing money when needed. I do not fault SAF in any of this, I'm sure he selected Moyes with the best of intentions. It didn't work out, and the next appointment needs to be dead on. I still believe in the United Way, the right way of doing things. I think we're better than the rest. And I'd like us try and maintain those standards of behavior, patience, and building with youth and flair, not throwing money at the problem, not sacking managers at a whim like Chelsea or City or PSG or Real.

I've ranted enough about the players, but a significant portion of them are not Manchester United material, both in quality and attitude. I'm disappointed in Giggs behavior if the reports of his behavior against Moyes are true. If true, hopefully he gets the send off his career deserves, and rides off into the sunset. Rio with the tweets, Carrick with his usual limp dick'd nature, RVP looking for his daddy... unforgiveable. I can support rubbish players who give 100% as a professional should, as the fans deserve. But what some of the players put in this season was inexcusable. I really hope the next manager puts them all out of a job soon. I'm done with some of the players. Even if Phil fecking Brown with that eejit looking headpiece was in the dugout, you respect the manager. You respect the fans who pay to watch you, by leaving every ounce of effort on the field. And you keep issues indoors. Otherwise, I can't support you as a player.

The matchgoing fans have been wonderful. Away fans are the best in the country. Calling them deluded, cult like... feck off. Hopefully sooner than later I can join them for one game and shout till I'm hoarse, regardless of what's going on on the pitch. The plane banner was cringeworthy (has this ever happened in the history of football) and was written off as the act of loons.

I think overall the caf had brilliant arguments and supporters on both sides. I for one never called out anyone as a worse or fairweather supporter for wanting Moyes out so soon. At times this place sucked the joy out of every fecking event. There were a lot of dormant posters who only came online to post for the 33rd time that Moyes should leave. Hopefully they slinker back into the woodwork. At the moment there is a lot of vitriol and vindiction in the air. Maybe after a few weeks the dust and euphoria will clear and a more reasonable analysis of Moyes' tenure will take place.
 

Danny1982

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So wait a minute.. Those who were defending Moyes because they were supposedly "loyal to the club" are now slating the club after they sacked Moyes?

And @Drummer, I find it interesting that you turned on the club now (and even voted that the club was wrong to sack Moyes) despite your number 1 reason for defending Moyes all season long was "Well, because SAF and the board still back him, and of course they know better than all of us, so they must have a good reason to back him... blah blah blah", and now that he's finally sacked by the board and SAF, you turn on the club for sacking him?!

FAO the Moyes fans, if you like Moyes that much then follow him wherever he goes. Stop slating the players, the board, and now the whole club just to put Moyes (who is not even a part of the club anymore) in a "good" light.
 

gasmanc

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We've been battered to death by David's Moyesiples on the fact that he should be given time and guess what, he's got it, as much as he wants.
Some people are never happy.
 

Erebus

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So let me get this right - some people still think we owe anything to a manager who:

  • gave us our worst home performance since 1978;
  • won 27/51 games played;
  • lost to West Brom, Newcastle, Swansea and Stoke;
  • called his players "mentally soft";
  • lost to City (twice), Liverpool (twice), Everton (twice);
  • gave us the worst home form for a decade;
  • gave us our lowest ever points total in the Premier League;

I could go on but the point is clear. Why do we owe this man anything? He was a disaster from start to finish. Incompetent. I'd hate to see some peoples definition of failure.
 
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CantonaGiggs1

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So let me get this right - some people still think we owe anything to a manager who:

  • gave us our worst home performance since 1978;
  • won 27/51 games played;
  • lost to West Brom, Newcastle, Swansea and Stoke;
  • called his players "mentally soft";
  • lost to City (twice), Liverpool (twice), Everton (twice);
  • gave us the worst home form for a decade;
  • gave us our lowest ever points total in the Premier League;

I could go on but the point is clear. Why do we owe this man anything? He was a disaster from start to finish. Incompetent. I'd hate to see some peoples definition of failure.
We've been battered to death by David's Moyesiples on the fact that he should be given time and guess what, he's got it, as much as he wants.
Some people are never happy.
Did Moyes supporters behave like a cult when he managed Everton? I am beginning to wonder if these people followed Moyes to Manchester. The way they slate our club is a joke.

Hopefully he finds a job soon so these people have somewhere to go.
 

HabeasC

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Worth it to get rid of the dithering one.

Young was going nowhere anyway with the contract hes reportedly on, no club with sense would pay him what we do.

The only way to get rid of Young is to stop playing him completely and then he'd have to make the decision whether to leave for less money and to play or to stay and get even richer. It sounds harsh but it was our fault for giving him such a big contract.

Bringing in better plays out-wide would do this.

I could see Moyes bringing him and Clevs to Newcastle.
 

stevoc

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The only way to get rid of Young is to stop playing him completely and then he'd have to make the decision whether to leave for less money and to play or to stay and get even richer. It sounds harsh but it was our fault for giving him such a big contract.

Bringing in better plays out-wide would do this.

I could see Moyes bringing him and Clevs to Newcastle.
That would be one way, i think what we could maybe also do is loan him out and subsidize his wages so that we are only paying half his wages. That i think would be more attractive to other clubs.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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How do we know it wasn't Moyes who put such valuation on Herrera? We don't. We know very little about how these transfer work.
True, but Bibao made it clear after our first bid that they were accepting no less than Herrera's contract clause, therefore, I can't imagine Moyes telling Woodward and co. to go with 5/6M less, as he knew Bilbao wouldn't accept it.