Is Casemiro the best holding midfielder of all time?

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MVBDX

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Probably true but a fit Kante totally dominated the Madrid midfield 2 seasons back. In both legs. Shame he will never be the same.
Meh, Madrid's squad was dead at that point due to covid and recurring injuries, any side could dominate it in that time frame, and many did.
 

Red the Bear

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Meh, Madrid's squad was dead at that point due to covid and recurring injuries, any side could dominate it in that time frame, and many did.
You were still Madrid and still reached the semi's.
 

MVBDX

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You were still Madrid and still reached the semi's.
The injuries and covid in the tight schedule added up quickly, and Madrid fell apart in both competitions. They couldn't keep up physically, even in random (yet decisive) Liga games.

And there was no young blood (Camavinga, Tchouameni...) to count on.

Had they focused on one competition, it might've worked.
 

Red the Bear

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The injuries and covid in the tight schedule added up quickly, and Madrid fell apart in both competitions. They couldn't keep up physically, even in random (yet decisive) Liga games.

And there was no young blood (Camavinga, Tchouameni...) to count on.

Had they focused on one competition, it might've worked.
Not denying that you lot were far from peak from but it still was the same midfield that had won it 2 years prior and would go on to win it the year after so all in all a very impressive performance.
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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Kanté was never a DM though. He's a b2b midfielder with exceptional defensive attributes.
No he was definitely NOT b2b (he was quite crap every time Lampard tried to play him there for Chelsea), he was just more of a man marking DM as opposed to a holding DM.

In reality the difference between Kante and Casemiro is mainly their styles on the ball. Casemiro is a better passer/distributor and striker of the football, but Kante is quicker and a better carrier through the midfield. Both can hold down defensive duties of two men though with how they read the game and tackle.
 

giorno

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Not denying that you lot were far from peak from but it still was the same midfield that had won it 2 years prior and would go on to win it the year after so all in all a very impressive performance.
Honestly last season chelsea were more impressive to me. In 2021 we really were dead on our feet by then
 

Chief123

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I’d go as far as making him captain next season. He’s the best candidate.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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No he was definitely NOT b2b (he was quite crap every time Lampard tried to play him there for Chelsea), he was just more of a man marking DM as opposed to a holding DM.

In reality the difference between Kante and Casemiro is mainly their styles on the ball. Casemiro is a better passer/distributor and striker of the football, but Kante is quicker and a better carrier through the midfield. Both can hold down defensive duties of two men though with how they read the game and tackle.
Yeah I don't get when people say Kanté isn’t a defensive midfielder. That’s his main purpose. Just because he doesn’t sit in front of the defence doesn’t mean he isn’t defensive. It’s like saying Henry wasn’t a striker because he didn’t goal hang like Inzaghi. Just a different style of playing a role.
 

Red the Bear

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Honestly last season chelsea were more impressive to me. In 2021 we really were dead on our feet by then
Yes the Chelsea performance of the second leg simply put was majestic, perhaps the best single leg performance of any team in that year's cl but still i think some personal bias is going on for you Madrid fans, it was a disappointing season but you lot still made it to the cl semi's and you still had most of your first 11 available so certainly not as bad as some make it look.
 

GatoLoco

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Probably true but a fit Kante totally dominated the Madrid midfield 2 seasons back. In both legs. Shame he will never be the same.
That squad was in shambles due to continuous injuries and COVID cases. I remember how I was warning other posters here in RedCafe before those games took place. It was an unusual season, an outlier.

No wonder the first thing Florentino did when he appointed Ancelotti was to force him to count on Antonio Pintus.
 

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As good as he is, and don't get me wrong I'm over the moon about his performances so far, the OP is way over the top. Names like
Matthaus, Rijkaard, Makelele, Davids, Dunga, Viera or maybe even are own Roy Keane would be more relevant imo.
 

AdNani

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As good as he is, and don't get me wrong I'm over the moon about his performances so far, the OP is way over the top. Names like
Matthaus, Rijkaard, Makelele, Davids, Dunga, Viera or maybe even are own Roy Keane would be more relevant imo.
Vieira and Roy Keane we're not DM's,

Makelele didn't have anywhere near the ability he does. Didn't see Matthaus or Rijkaard enough. Davids was tremendous, but again not really a holding midfielder is he
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Vieira and Roy Keane we're not DM's,

Makelele didn't have anywhere near the ability he does. Didn't see Matthaus or Rijkaard enough. Davids was tremendous, but again not really a holding midfielder is he
Vieira and Roy Keane anchored a midfield at times in their career. Older Keane was very like this Casemiro we are seeing now. So they were DMs in a way. Rijkaard too could play as a CB, a 6 or an 8. Matthaus could play all along the spine right up to a 10. And at different stages of their careers or depending on the other personnel they played in different positions, like a proper midfielder can. Occasionally you can be a specialist like Makelele or Casemiro at Madrid, but that's the system and the other midfielders as much as anything. Casemiro has a deep starting position but like the other night v Spurs he can be a threat in the other box too.
 
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cyberman

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Vieira and Roy Keane anchored a midfield at times in their career. Older Keane was very like this Casemiro we are seeing now. So they were DMs in a way. Rijkaard too could play as a CB, a 6 or an 8. Matthaus could play all along the spine right up to a 10. And at different states of their careers or depending on the other personnel they played in different positions, like a proper midfielder can. Occasionally you can be a specialist like Makelele or Casemiro at Madrid, but that's the system and the other midfielders as much as anything. Casemiro has a deep starting position but like the other night v Spurs he can be a threat in the other box too.
I dont think Vieira ever did? He had Makelele for France behind him, Petit while at Arsenal (and France again) and Gilberto until the end of his Arsenal career.
Even Keane wasn’t a DM until his legs went and a spent Keane wasn’t better than Casemiro
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
I dont think Vieira ever did? He had Makelele for France behind him, Petit while at Arsenal (and France again) and Gilberto until the end of his Arsenal career.
Even Keane wasn’t a DM until his legs went and a spent Keane wasn’t better than Casemiro
No, I'm not saying he was, just that this stricter use of labels is not that helpful over any long period of time.
 

giorno

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Yes the Chelsea performance of the second leg simply put was majestic, perhaps the best single leg performance of any team in that year's cl but still i think some personal bias is going on for you Madrid fans, it was a disappointing season but you lot still made it to the cl semi's and you still had most of your first 11 available so certainly not as bad as some make it look.
No, man, the team was dead on its feet by then. We lasted until early April, just in time to beat liverpool and win the clasico. Then we broke down. By the time we played the first leg, Sergio Ramos, Mendy, Valverde, Lucas V were out, Varane was unfit, Casemiro and Modric had run out of gas and were going on through sheer inertia, Kroos was playing through injury entirely because A) we had no one else and B) the Euros. It was basically just Courtois, Militao and Benzema carrying 8 corpses on their backs

We had to rush Ramos, Mendy and Valverde back for the second leg and obviously none of them were playing fit.

If our end of season run in the league had been harder we wouldn't have gotten to the final matchday either. Chelsea were simply a really great side, who got to feast on a corpse
 

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Casemiro has so much more ability than Makelele
Probably true but a fit Kante totally dominated the Madrid midfield 2 seasons back. In both legs. Shame he will never be the same.
Nope. Makelele used to be a play making midfielder for Celta Vigo. Madrid just limited his role. He had touch and skill superior to Casemeiro.
One has 5 Champions Leagues. The other has 1 CL, a Premier League win with Leicester and a World Cup. I dont want to be the one sticking my neck out which achieved more. Two record breakers.
One played with arguably the second best player of all time, top 5 midfielder of all time (Modric) top 10 playmaking CM of all time, Kroos, 2 world cup winning Centre backs etc etc doesn't mean he is the better individual player
 

Gio

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Vieira and Roy Keane anchored a midfield at times in their career. Older Keane was very like this Casemiro we are seeing now. So they were DMs in a way. Rijkaard too could play as a CB, a 6 or an 8. Matthaus could play all along the spine right up to a 10. And at different stages of their careers or depending on the other personnel they played in different positions, like a proper midfielder can. Occasionally you can be a specialist like Makelele or Casemiro at Madrid, but that's the system and the other midfielders as much as anything. Casemiro has a deep starting position but like the other night v Spurs he can be a threat in the other box too.
I dont think Vieira ever did? He had Makelele for France behind him, Petit while at Arsenal (and France again) and Gilberto until the end of his Arsenal career.
Even Keane wasn’t a DM until his legs went and a spent Keane wasn’t better than Casemiro
Aye it's all about how they are deployed. I think it's the challenge between comparing a pivot 6 in a modern 4-3-3 versus the 6 in a 1990s 4-4-2 or 2000s 4-2-3-1. One mostly screens and rarely ventures forward, the other often had the most defensive responsibility in the midfield but usually played box-to-box.
 

giorno

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Nope. Makelele used to be a play making midfielder for Celta Vigo. Madrid just limited his role. He had touch and skill superior to Casemeiro.
Eh. Depends on skill. He was a better dribbler and ball carrier, Case is a far superior passer
 

ilrm

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Edgar Davids? Gattuso? Maybe not considered holding midfielders?
I’d put Davids and Gattuso a level below Casemiro. Casemiro’s distribution is miles better while still having the same ball winning impact. Casemiro at Madrid also scored at a higher rate than them.
 

AdNani

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Nope. Makelele used to be a play making midfielder for Celta Vigo. Madrid just limited his role. He had touch and skill superior to Casemeiro.

One played with arguably the second best player of all time, top 5 midfielder of all time (Modric) top 10 playmaking CM of all time, Kroos, 2 world cup winning Centre backs etc etc doesn't mean he is the better individual player
Casemiro is a much better passer than Makelele ever was,

Scored and assisted more as well, he has more to his game.
 

Red the Bear

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No, man, the team was dead on its feet by then. We lasted until early April, just in time to beat liverpool and win the clasico. Then we broke down. By the time we played the first leg, Sergio Ramos, Mendy, Valverde, Lucas V were out, Varane was unfit, Casemiro and Modric had run out of gas and were going on through sheer inertia, Kroos was playing through injury entirely because A) we had no one else and B) the Euros. It was basically just Courtois, Militao and Benzema carrying 8 corpses on their backs

We had to rush Ramos, Mendy and Valverde back for the second leg and obviously none of them were playing fit.

If our end of season run in the league had been harder we wouldn't have gotten to the final matchday either. Chelsea were simply a really great side, who got to feast on a corpse
Than I just have to concede on the account of you being more knowledgeable about your own team but nevertheless a win against Madrid whether their knocker or not in ucl semi final which is your bread and butter will always be impressive no matter the circumstances (especially this Madrid team, probably the best Europe performers of all time).
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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Nope. Makelele used to be a play making midfielder for Celta Vigo. Madrid just limited his role. He had touch and skill superior to Casemeiro.

One played with arguably the second best player of all time, top 5 midfielder of all time (Modric) top 10 playmaking CM of all time, Kroos, 2 world cup winning Centre backs etc etc doesn't mean he is the better individual player
He wasn't a playmaking midfielder at Celta. Mostovoy was the main playmaker, Revivo and Karpin the side-midfielders (karpin also had box to box and central midfield supporting creative duties as a high workrate Nedved sort of player), with Mazinho and/or Makelele were the holding players. Mazinho being the veteran Carrick/Jorginho/older scholes passing type and Makelele playing in the same defensive/destructive role he had at Madrid.

To be fair, i've seen articles stating he was the playmaker there too, but it's not true. I have a feeling it's from younger journalists that were big fans Makelele at Real/Chelsea and maybe feel his reputation as a purely defensive midfielder is unfair on his skills, so they decided to boost him up further than he deserves at the expense of players that have by now become quite obscure.
 
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giorno

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Seriously Makelele for Celta played in much the same way, same role, same skillset even, as Kante
 

JPRouve

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I dont think Vieira ever did? He had Makelele for France behind him, Petit while at Arsenal (and France again) and Gilberto until the end of his Arsenal career.
Even Keane wasn’t a DM until his legs went and a spent Keane wasn’t better than Casemiro
Vieira and Makélélé largely didn't play together for France. For Vieira the partner was mainly Deschamps and then a mixed bag of players like Pedretti, Dacourt, Alou Diarra. Anyway, you are right about Vieira being generally more attacking with France than with Arsenal.
 

JPRouve

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Seriously Makelele for Celta played in much the same way, same role, same skillset even, as Kante
He also did it with Nantes for years and also played as a wide midfielder(that's his initial role).
 

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He wasn't a playmaking midfielder at Celta. Mostovoy was the main playmaker, Revivo and Karpin the side-midfielders (karpin also had box to box and central midfield supporting creative duties as a high workrate Nedved sort of player), with Mazinho and/or Makelele were the holding players. Mazinho being the veteran Carrick/Jorginho/older scholes passing type and Makelele playing in the same defensive/destructive role he had at Madrid.

To be fair, i've seen articles stating he was the playmaker there too, but it's not true. I have a feeling it's from younger journalists that were big fans Makelele at Real/Chelsea and maybe feel his reputation as a purely defensive midfielder is unfair on his skills, so they decided to boost him up further than he deserves at the expense of players that have by now become quite obscure.
I watched him play in the Uefa cup vs Liverpool and followed Revista De La Liga. Maybe play maker is exaggerated but I saw him on the ball and he wasn't just passing to the nearest man and hanging out in front of the defence
 

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Gattuso? What an overrated player if he's supposed to be anywhere near Davids or Casemiro. Every other name being mentioned in here was a far better player than him, he was an average footballer who served a distinct role in Milan's team.
Davids is nowhere near Casemiro.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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I notice when someone says a player is nowhere near another one in these discussions of top players, it can usually be taken 70/80% of the time that they actually were close in ability.
 

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He was great against spurs. We need to be honest that we’re not getting him at this level for too long, but I’ll take that. 2 years is ok. We’ve paid more for less and he’ll still be immense for a couple of years after that. Love his attitude and that’s fact that he fancied this role with us. I’m pumped.
 
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