Is Casemiro the best holding midfielder of all time?

[harms]

Lets look at a neutral source: https://www.transfermarkt.us/lothar-matthaus/profil/spieler/1527
Even when he played B2B, for the most part he was tasked with tackling higher up the pitch and passing it. He had a few excellent goal scoring seasons (because he was outstanding) but that doesn't mean his main job wasn't to tackle higher up the pitch. He was a DM/CB and rarely played B2B. It would be like Kante at Lecesiter scoring 15-20 goals. Kante's job was to tackle higher up the pitch but you wouldn't call him B2B.

Rijkaard partnered Ancelotti in CM and Ancelotti was definitely an attack-minded B2B midfielder. I don't think Rijkaard has ever played as B2B at Milan.
If Carlo was injured then Colombo was generally shifted to CM (even though he was generally RW backup to Donadoni).
At Ajax (after Milan) he was a CB/DM and never a B2B - that was Seedorf/R De Boer/Musampa.

Let me start by quoting Jonathan Wilson, who had literally wrote a book on history of football tactics. In his article "The Question: is the box-to-box midfielder dead?" he names a few players that very much defined the role of a box-to-box midfielder... wouldn't you guess it, it's Bryan Robson, Roy Keane and Lothar Matthäus:

And then it occurred to me that complete midfielders, those great drivers of teams who could both score goals and make tackles, are generally a declining breed. After Robson there came Löthar Matthaus, David Platt, then Roy Keane and thereafter, well, nobody. The question is why.

If you're going to use transfermarkt, it's better to understand how it works. It doesn't have the positional data on most of the 1980's & for a lot of the 1990's, which is why when you see the detailed version of his positions the number of games don't really match the amount of the games that transfermarkt itself shows for his entire career.

And even in that very limited patch of games that mostly cover the very late stage of his career (hence the number of CB appearances — or sweeper to be exact, a role that he had played when his legs were more or less gone) he has more CM appearances than he has DM:

By "a few excellent goalscoring seasons" you mean 11 seasons when he had scored more than 10 goals including seasons when he had scored 19, 21 and 23 goals?

And you seem to have a very weird definition of box-to-box if "tackling and passing" isn't included. It is the main part of the box-to-box midfielder's game — literally contribution to every stage of the game, winning the ball back in his own box, carrying it forward and scoring from inside of the opposition's box. Hence the name.

There were different varieties of box-to-box players. Some were more defensive like Rijkaard, Keane, Tigana, Davids etc. Some where more attacking like Robson, Breitner, Lerby or, well, peak Matthäus, who was often his team's main goalscorer — take the 1990/91 season where he had scored more league goals (16) than Inter's main striker, Klinsmann (14).

As for Rijkaard — when I talked about him being a B2B at Ajax, I was talking about his first spell there. He was that team's best midfielder who was responsible for literally everything — winning the ball back, dictating the play and even providing a brilliant secondary goalscoring threat behind van Basten. It's not a coincidence that he had scored around 10 goals per season during his latter seasons there.

Rijkaard at his second stint at Ajax, under van Gaal, was obviously not a B2B, he was sitting at the base their midfield with Davids, Seedorf and sometimes de Boer playing as B2B midfielders ahead of him. At Milan though he was very much a defensive B2B — I'll quote Sacchi himself from the same Wilson's article, explaining the difference between a specialist holding midfielder like Makélélé and, well, Rijkaard:

"Today's football is about managing the characteristics of individuals," he said. "And that's why you see the proliferation of specialists. The individual has trumped the collective. But it's a sign of weakness. It's reactive, not pro-active."

Sacchi saw that most clearly during his time as sporting director of Real Madrid in 2004. "There was no project; it was about exploiting qualities," he said. "So, for example, we knew that Zidane, Raúl and Figo didn't track back, so we had to put a guy in front of the back four who would defend. But that's reactionary football. It doesn't multiply the players' qualities exponentially. Which actually is the point of tactics: to achieve this multiplier effect on the players' abilities. In my football, the regista – the playmaker – is whoever had the ball. But if you have [Claude] Makélélé, he can't do that. He doesn't have the ideas to do it, though of course, he's great at winning the ball. It's all about specialists."

Sacchi remains as committed to 4-4-2 now as he was when his AC Milan side won successive European Cups in 1989 and 1990. Neither of his central midfield pairing of Carlo Ancelotti and Frank Rijkaard were as prolific as Robson or Matthaus, but both were certainly capable of both destroying and creating.

 

[Daslogisch]

Which 10 names?

I don't need ro name specific players. RMs team was great because of the players Ive mentioned,, not because of Casemiro. Liverpool won a CL and played 2 finals with Jordan Henderson in DM and he's no better than average. That's my point. I believe Real could have won those CLs without Casemiro, even if the one replacing him would be considered a lesser player. Only in the last one I'd consider him pivotal because the other stars had left/declined.

Casemiro has been part of a great team and has been a solid DM. He's been amongst the better ones in his generation, however not by any means an all time great.

 

[KikiDaKats]

No he is not. Not even in my top 30 to play this role.
His achievements at club level is as good in comparison or greater but pound for pound abilitywise he falters in my ratings.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

No.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Casemiro is one of the most successfull ones obviously. That's however more down to players like Ramos, Marcelo, Modric, Kroos, Benzema and CR7. They were the irreplaceble ones in those teams. Casemiro is a solid DM, but there could have been 10 other DMs in that team and they'd have won those prices.

I know it's just semantics and all, but Ramos, Marcelo, and CR7 were replaced, and Real Madrid won another CL title.

 

[wr8_utd]

The thread title is an overreaction so the timing will never be right but Casemiro had very good performances vs Liverpool and Frankfurt so that probably inspired some to hail him of late (again).

Anyway, he has some very good traits not many people tend to value. Excellent decision making, positioning, dependability, versatility to play as CB, defensive midfielder and be an aerial threat in attack, focused in key games, excellent sweeper etc.

All-time great and it is only fair to say it even if others in his position may be more flashy to my eyes.

Oh I agree he's had a phenomenal career so far and will go down as one of the all time great holdings mids but to call him the best holding midfielder based on the two recent games is just huge recency bias and a strong knee-jerk reaction.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

No he is not. Not even in my top 30 to play this role.
His achievements at club level is as good in comparison or greater but pound for pound abilitywise he falters in my ratings.

I probably couldn't even name 30 good CDM's

 

[KikiDaKats]

I probably couldn't even name 30 good CDM's

My favourite players have always been defensive midfielders. Weird but true.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Yes because count his CLs

The OP probably thought

Phil Neal greatest English player of all time.

 

[el_loco_bielsa]

As others are pointing out, there’s a whole host of names you need to mention before you even get to Casemiro in this conversation.

He doesn’t approach the true greats (matthaeus, riijkaard), there were superior holding midfielders at RM before him (makalele, redondo), and there have been greater Brazilian holding midfielders who preceded him too (dunga, Mauro Silva, Zito and arguably Clodoaldo).

So, no. It’s a nice debate to have but heavily coloured by the trophies he’s won rather than his technical skill and presence.

 

[P-Ro]

He's probably on par with Jon Obi Mikel at his peak. Although I might be doing Mikel a disservice here.

 

[Fortitude]

Casemiro will be better judged in the future; the instinctive response to this thread is: don’t be silly, plus he’ll always be the third cog after Kroos and Modric, but as an actual triumvirate rather than singular entities (where only Modric comes out smelling of roses), they’ve cemented themselves as one of the greatest units of all time. Easily.

Casemiro has few plaudits outside of Real Madrid, unlike Kroos, and Modric in particular, so by default, he cannot be the greatest of all-time or even of his contemporaries who have shone with and without club-mates or one magnificent setting.

Being Brazilian, he also has about the largest minefield of all to get through to even break top 10. On a technical basis, he is nowhere near the likes of: Falcao*, Toninho-Cerezo, Clodoaldo or Dunga. Dunga known as a plodder, but a really deft distributor of the ball both short and - particularly - long. You can go through a host of lesser known, but technically exceptional midfielders for Brazil alone who I think people would believe could match Casemiro if given the chance in the same midfield; when you get to the greater players for the role, they stand out in their own right; not complementary or a lesser cog to anyone else, which is where I’d say these four have Casemiro beat. *Falcao wasn’t a holding player per se, but like a Beckenbauer, he’d be better at it by default such is the gulf in everything.

You fill out the remainder of the Brazilian list with similar to, but better than, Casemiro. Players such as: Mauro Silva, Zito, Gilberto Silva, Ze Roberto; at Ze Roberto, you’re probably entering the debatable category - players who most likely aren’t interchangeable in doing the same job he did to the same levels of studiousness and/or ability. So from Brazilians alone, you’ve got:

Falcao
Toninho-Cerezo
Clodoaldo
Dunga
Mauro Silva
Zito
Gillberto Silva
Ze Roberto

And then the likes of Fernandinho who I guess many would argue just needed to be in a team with a Kroos and Modric to have the same kind trophy cabinet.

Before entering the all-time realm of bona fide names, you have to ask whether Casemiro is better than the likes of post-millennial greats such as:

Marcos Senna
Patrick Vieira
Schweinsteiger
Vidal
Busquets
Mascherano
De Rossi

Not sure which of those in their primes, in a midfield with Kroos and Modric does not come away with the same or more plaudits than Casemiro.

Then there’s the big guns who generally draw chiding remarks from threads like this:

Rijkaard
Neeskens*
Redondo
Keane*
Voronin
Matthäus*
Makélélé
Souness
Robson*
Tigana
Tardelli
Deschamps
Schweinsteiger*

Without being extensive or including players from the 70’s and earlier (except Voronin) so that ‘nostalgia’ isn’t used to dismiss them. *represents players that weren’t sitters at their peaks but would be as immaculate as needed due to their ability and intelligence.

What Casemiro has over a number players mentioned is more trophies, but he doesn’t have their outstanding ability or presence in the sense of being able to outshine peers in his own vaunted midfield - most of the players listed could turn a game and bend it to their will and forcibly earn man of the match over anyone in their xi let alone just midfield. I don’t think Casemiro has many of those under his belt in his entire Madrid career.

As ever with these threads, we’re talking about the best of the best either of all-time or of an era or generation so cream of the crop stuff, which can appear to knock the player being discussed, but I think Casemiro is an excellent player, just when you project such scrutiny upon him and dissect his abilities and contrast them to others, I guess you’ll get an answer that doesn’t have him making the bar, to my mind anyway. I could make 10 (20) all-time teams and Casemiro would not even be a consideration unless we’re putting him in the proven midfield that has threads like this made.

 

[KikiDaKats]

Casemiro will be better judged in the future; the instinctive response to this thread is: don’t be silly, plus he’ll always be the third cog after Kroos and Modric, but as an actual triumvirate rather than singular entities (where only Modric comes out smelling of roses), they’ve cemented themselves as one of the greatest units of all time. Easily.

Casemiro has few plaudits outside of Real Madrid, unlike Kroos, and Modric in particular, so by default, he cannot be the greatest of all-time or even of his contemporaries who have shone with and without club-mates or one magnificent setting.

Being Brazilian, he also has about the largest minefield of all to get through to even break top 10. On a technical basis, he is nowhere near the likes of: Falcao*, Toninho-Cerezo, Clodoaldo or Dunga. Dunga known as a plodder, but a really deft distributor of the ball both short and - particularly - long. You can go through a host of lesser known, but technically exceptional midfielders for Brazil alone who I think people would believe could match Casemiro if given the chance in the same midfield; when you get to the greater players for the role, they stand out in their own right; not complementary or a lesser cog to anyone else, which is where I’d say these four have Casemiro beat. *Falcao wasn’t a holding player per se, but like a Beckenbauer, he’d be better at it by default such is the gulf in everything.

You fill out the remainder of the Brazilian list with similar to, but better than, Casemiro. Players such as: Mauro Silva, Zito, Gilberto Silva, Ze Roberto; at Ze Roberto, you’re probably entering the debatable category - players who most likely aren’t interchangeable in doing the same job he did to the same levels of studiousness and/or ability. So from Brazilians alone, you’ve got:

Falcao
Toninho-Cerezo
Clodoaldo
Dunga
Mauro Silva
Zito
Gillberto Silva
Ze Roberto

And then the likes of Fernandinho who I guess many would argue just needed to be in a team with a Kroos and Modric to have the same kind trophy cabinet.

Before entering the all-time realm of bona fide names, you have to ask whether Casemiro is better than the likes of post-millennial greats such as:

Marcos Senna
Patrick Vieira
Schweinsteiger
Vidal
Busquets
Mascherano
De Rossi

Not sure which of those in their primes, in a midfield with Kroos and Modric does not come away with the same or more plaudits than Casemiro.

Then there’s the big guns who generally draw chiding remarks from threads like this:

Rijkaard
Neeskens*
Redondo
Keane*
Voronin
Matthäus*
Makélélé
Souness
Robson*
Tigana
Tardelli
Deschamps
Schweinsteiger*

Without being extensive or including players from the 70’s and earlier (except Voronin) so that ‘nostalgia’ isn’t used to dismiss them. *represents players that weren’t sitters at their peaks but would be as immaculate as needed due to their ability and intelligence.

What Casemiro has over a number players mentioned is more trophies, but he doesn’t have their outstanding ability or presence in the sense of being able to outshine peers in his own vaunted midfield - most of the players listed could turn a game and bend it to their will and forcibly earn man of the match over anyone in their xi let alone just midfield. I don’t think Casemiro has many of those under his belt in his entire Madrid career.

As ever with these threads, we’re talking about the best of the best either of all-time or of an era or generation so cream of the crop stuff, which can appear to knock the player being discussed, but I think Casemiro is an excellent player, just when you project such scrutiny upon him and dissect his abilities and contrast them to others, I guess you’ll get an answer that doesn’t have him making the bar, to my mind anyway. I could make 10 (20) all-time teams and Casemiro would not even be a consideration unless we’re putting him in the proven midfield that has threads like this made.

Nice response. Can’t say more. Just have to read it again as part of my archive.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

discuss.

He is no where close. Great player though

 

[giorno]

People out here saying Mauro Silva and fecking Dunga were better than Casemiro

 

[MadMike]

What is the obsession with questioning people's obsessions?

The opposite. It's them who are begging for their obsessions to be questioned. Have you read the title. It's a question.

 

[B20]

People out here saying Mauro Silva and fecking Dunga were better than Casemiro

Silva has a case maybe, but dunga?

 

[giorno]

Silva has a case maybe, but dunga?

Neither have a case. Nor does Gilberto Silva. Zito? Sure, he's in conversation for best brazilian DMs ever. Clodoaldo wasn't even a DM, he just played there for the national team because it was either that or the bench

Toninho Cerezo, yeah, sure. Emerson, sure. The others mentioned in this thread are a fecking joke

 

[André Dominguez]

Casemiro really blossomed at Porto. His beggining was rough and he was placed out of position at times because his composure on the ball was not clicking.
But suddenly his mental block just broke and he became a monster in the midfield. And if the team needed he could become a third CB in the final minutes.

 

[Fortitude]

Neither have a case. Nor does Gilberto Silva. Zito? Sure, he's in conversation for best brazilian DMs ever. Clodoaldo wasn't even a DM, he just played there for the national team because it was either that or the bench

Toninho Cerezo, yeah, sure. Emerson, sure. The others mentioned in this thread are a fecking joke

Steady! Casemiro is close to your heart - he did great things for you, but there are bigger stages than that, and even if there weren't plenty of midfielders of his calibre simply didn't have the privilege of playing in a midfield with an all-time great and a very good complementary player.

You say Mauro Silva doesn't have a case. Well you better explain yourself.

I think what you're missing is like Falcao being mentioned, Clodoaldo displayed brilliance that puts him straight into the conversation because of where and how he did it. If the discussion is placed in the arena of an arbitrary amount of games played in the position then set the number; Casemiro will still come up short.

 

[giorno]

You say Mauro Silva doesn't have a case. Well you better explain yourself.

What is the case for Mauro Silva, even?

I think what you're missing is like Falcao being mentioned,

Completely different type of player. Might as well mention Pirlo or Zidane, Falcao had more in common with them

Clodoaldo displayed brilliance that puts him straight into the conversation because of where and how he did it. If the discussion is placed in the arena of an arbitrary amount of games played in the position then set the number; Casemiro will still come up short.

Sure, if you want to consider Clodoaldo based on 1 tournament on one of the 3 most loaded teams of all time, be my guest. The argument against Casemiro seems to be "his teammates were brilliant" and if that's the case, mentioning Clodoaldo is kind of disingenous, but whatever

 

[GatoLoco]

I don't need ro name specific players. RMs team was great because of the players Ive mentioned,, not because of Casemiro. Liverpool won a CL and played 2 finals with Jordan Henderson in DM and he's no better than average. That's my point.

Henderson won 1, Casemiro won 5 being a starter in 4, so I am not sure you are using the best example. He was key when he was not starter in 2014 vs Borussia Dortmund away and he also had outstanding performances in 2016 and 2022 in phases when Atletico and Liverpool were chasing a goal fiercely.

I have a theory that most people in RedCafe don't watch games of tournaments where English clubs are not very involved, so performances like the ones vs Dortmund and Atletico are not looked at so closely.

I believe Real could have won those CLs without Casemiro, even if the one replacing him would be considered a lesser player. Only in the last one I'd consider him pivotal because the other stars had left/declined.

We had Llorente, one of the CDMs with better stats of La Liga at Alaves, not doing well during Casemiro's absence, so not sure that would have been the case.

Casemiro has been part of a great team and has been a solid DM. He's been amongst the better ones in his generation, however not by any means an all time great.

Maybe an all time great is too much, but he is really not that far. Or at least when you say 10 players could have substituted him easily you are very seriously undermining his contributions.

 

[B20]

What is the case for Mauro Silva, even?

World Cup winner. Voted 9th best player in the world same year.

Not won as much because deportivo but at his best I think he was better. Could really dominate a midfield in and out of possession.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Casemiro is a great DM, he is not particularly a technical player like Redondo, but very proficient technically nonetheless, he is however a strong, mobile, and very intelligent defensive player who has excellent positional sense, ability to read the game, and good anticipation, he is the perfect profile for a DM.

With that being said, I still don't see him at the same level as other DMs who, in addition to being great defensively, they were also creative in passing, had great vision, technique and close control with the ability to dictate the tempo of the game, like a Busquet or Redondo or even Vieira.

 

[adexkola]

I just want to know why this thread (and corresponding responses) have not been done for Sergio fecking Ramos, but maybe one day some one will ask whether he's the best CB of all time because CLs Erneh

 

[Theafonis]

OP is definitely young or started watching football recently

 

[Theafonis]

I just want to know why this thread (and corresponding responses) have not been done for Sergio fecking Ramos, but maybe one day some one will ask whether he's the best CB of all time because CLs Erneh

Nice Shaq Joke

 

[MVBDX]

On a semi-related note: the trio of Modric, Kroos and Casemiro have played together in 9 finals, winning them all.

That's one hell of a stat.

 

[united for life]

That position is called the “makelele position”.

 

[Lord SInister]

I just want to know why this thread (and corresponding responses) have not been done for Sergio fecking Ramos, but maybe one day some one will ask whether he's the best CB of all time because CLs Erneh

He is regarded as the greatest CB ever by kids in social media though. All the CLs wins have made him be in that conversation. And the anti-Ramos crowd(who are as ignorant as pro-Ramos) have only name from past to claim he isn't better, and that name is better at LB Maldini, because Maldini has 5 CL, Ramos fans keep quite for the most part. It is a mess boy now, in 10 years, we will have people claiming Ramos as best CB, Benzema better than R9, Casemiro best DM and so on.

 

[giorno]

That position is called the “makelele position”.

Only in arse-backwards countries for whom playing 3 midfielders was some kind of sorcery

 

[harms]

Neither have a case. Nor does Gilberto Silva. Zito? Sure, he's in conversation for best brazilian DMs ever. Clodoaldo wasn't even a DM, he just played there for the national team because it was either that or the bench

Toninho Cerezo, yeah, sure. Emerson, sure. The others mentioned in this thread are a fecking joke

You laugh at Mauro Silva & Dunga but then mention Emerson as a worthy candidate?

 

[giorno]

You laugh at Mauro Silva & Dunga but then mention Emerson as a worthy candidate?

In an empirical way, yeah. Emerson does not have the resume of Casemiro but all in all was probably a better player. Mauro Silva has the world cup to his name and was a really good player, but I don't see how anyone could put him on Casemiro's level.

Dunga is a joke. Closer to the level of Fred than those other guys ffs (yes i'm exaggerating)

 

[marktan]

He's class. Everything you'd want in a modern DM. Tackles very well, positionally excellent, and can play a pass. If we had him at United it'd transform our team more than a player like FDJ - both an indicament to how good I think he is and how badly we need an actual DM.

When you compare him to the other DMs of this generation like Fabinho, Fernandinho, Rodri, Busquets - I think he's better than them all. The only one I think is better is Kante, but that's more because he's a weird player that covers an unnatural amount of ground and transitions to a an attacking midfielder too when he gets forward. A bit like Viera back in the day.

 

[al.gabiru]

Casemiro has superior individual statistics than Kante and Fernandinho, according to Opta. And he won more titles too.

He is the best DM of the generation. Without discussion

 

[BlackShark_80]

Casemiro has superior individual statistics than Kante and Fernandinho, according to Opta. And he won more titles too.

He is the best DM of the generation. Without discussion

No, that would be Busquets and Schweinsteiger in the last decade. If we are talking about now, Kimmich is the best DM.

 

[MVBDX]

Schweinsteiger was b2b, with Javi Martinez being the holding midfielder.

He was never a holding mid, neither club nor country.

 

[VorZakone]

Schweinsteiger was b2b, with Javi Martinez being the holding midfielder.

He was never a holding mid, neither club nor country.

Javi Martinez in 2012/2013 was unreal. What a season he had.

 

[Superden]

There was a time when defensive midfielders also attacked..but then they were just called midfielders then.

 

[B20]

There was a time when defensive midfielders also attacked..but then they were just called midfielders then.

Vieira and Petit were the last of those at the top level I reckon.