Is David Moyes career finished in top level football?

sunama

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In fairness, I feel that once a manager takes on the MUFC job, his career tends to get derailed.
Moyes can't get a job in the EPL.
LVG retired.
Jose is struggling to get a decent offer.
 

B20

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I love stupid arguments like this where one side is so obviously wrong.

It's kinda inherent in the naming of the games. If you play a qualifying round, lose and therefore do not proceed to the tournament proper, you haven't bloody well qualified. You've lost the qualifying round!
 

astracrazy

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How was getting 4th with a semi decent Everton such an achievement though? They finished 3 points ahead of Bolton and 6 ahead of Middlesbrough.
In context I guess for Everton finishing above Liverpool and getting champions league was a good season for them. After that it was a consistent 5th to 7th bar the odd 11th or something. So I would say he had them where they should be and to be honest he took them there. Its just a) that was his max level and b) he was part of the woodwork "too" much.
 

sunama

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Its nonsense to suggest he did a good job at Everton. in 11 years he failed to win a trophy. Failed to qualify for the Champions League proper, and crucially failed to win any of the 44 away league games at Anfield, Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or Highbury/Emirates. That last fact should have told you that his small time mentality would never work at a big club.
I think that ends any argument that Moyes was any good at Everton (he was terrible everywhere else - I don't think anybody would debate that).
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
11 years at Everton contradicts that, he was comfortable, earning fortunes and clearly had no further ambition.
I see what you're saying mate but did he stay there for 11 years because he didn't want a big job or did he stay there because he didn't get offered any big jobs until United were silly enough to hire him?

Ugh defending Moyes feels dirty. :lol:
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
I love stupid arguments like this where one side is so obviously wrong.

It's kinda inherent in the naming of the games. If you play a qualifying round, lose and therefore do not proceed to the tournament proper, you haven't bloody well qualified. You've lost the qualifying round!
Hear, hear mate.

It seems simple enough to understand, i suspect he knows now but he's just being obstinate.
 

redshaw

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In fairness, I feel that once a manager takes on the MUFC job, his career tends to get derailed.
Moyes can't get a job in the EPL.
LVG retired.
Jose is struggling to get a decent offer.
With Moyes it's probably his Sunderland West Ham and Real Sociedad stints that have affected his chances. Sunderland's record was truly awful with him. He's had two PL clubs since leaving us.

I do think Moyes could succeed though if he can get a similar side built to his Everton days. He won't be good with high profile players or drastically improving players in relegation fights but give him a medium profile squad he can keep them organized and plugging away in midtable with an occasional jaunt up. He's a dour workmanlike guy and needs these sort of players. It's not very aspirational though but maybe Everton right now would take that.
 

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He should never have got the Man United job in the first place!

I remember laughing my head off when United appointed him because I just knew he would approach United with the same mentality he had at Everton!

Its nonsense to suggest he did a good job at Everton. in 11 years he failed to win a trophy. Failed to qualify for the Champions League proper, and crucially failed to win any of the 44 away league games at Anfield, Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or Highbury/Emirates. That last fact should have told you that his small time mentality would never work at a big club.

Is he finished at top level football? Yes, because he never actually got there in the first place.
Yeah I use to tear my hair out when Chelsea fans wanted him, it was so so obvious that he wouldn't mentally adjust to managing a top club.

That said I do believe he did a decent job at Everton overall despite the abysmal record at the top grounds.
 

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Yeah I use to tear my hair out when Chelsea fans wanted him, it was so so obvious that he wouldn't mentally adjust to managing a top club.

That said I do believe he did a decent job at Everton overall despite the abysmal record at the top grounds.
A decent job is fair. He kept them ticking over in 5th around place most years. As bad as United are now they really were terrible under Moyes. United losing 1-0 at Old Trafford to Everton is the game that most sums up Moyes time with you!
 

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I’ll be surprised if one of Everton or West Ham don’t go back to him now; be interesting to see the reactions of the supporters.
 

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I’ll be surprised if one of Everton or West Ham don’t go back to him now; be interesting to see the reactions of the supporters.
Everton out of those two would make the most sense to me, but I'm not sure their fans would be over the moon. It's being discussed on their forum (Grand Old Team) and not many like the idea. Lots of talk about how they don't like his football/being similar to when Big Sam came in who they also don't like. Not up to them though.

After West Ham sent him on his way it would be a big climbdown/change of heart if they came in for him. He mightn't exactly hold them in high regard either. Don't think the fans have any affection for him too.

I think Southampton might be a decent chance if they ended up firing Hassenhuttl.
 

B20

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Him going back to everton or west ham feels a bit like when Joe Kinnear got the Newcastle job.
 

padzilla

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He is a manager of a higher level than the one we have now. It won't be a popular opinion but he wasn't given the opportunities Ole has been who is still managing to perform worse.
 

Offside

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Moyes did a great job at Everton. Regularly in the top 6. Bar the first year after he left when they nearly got top 4, they've not had it as good. Absolute shite this season.
 

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He is a manager of a higher level than the one we have now. It won't be a popular opinion but he wasn't given the opportunities Ole has been who is still managing to perform worse.
Neither popular or intelligent.
 

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Neither popular or intelligent.
What he did at Everton far exceeds anything Ole has done in his career and he actually had a higher points tally in his time here than Ole has. It's pretty safe to say he is actually a better manager.

It's not really a compliment though seeing as Ole is arguably the worst manager currently in the PL.
 

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What he did at Everton far exceeds anything Ole has done in his career and he actually had a higher points tally in his time here than Ole has. It's pretty safe to say he is actually a better manager.

It's not really a compliment though seeing as Ole is arguably the worst manager currently in the PL.
For all i care you can argue whatever you want until your skin turns blue, this was what i responded to " It won't be a popular opinion but he wasn't given the opportunities Ole has "

Which is neither intelligent or popular.
 

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For all i care you can argue whatever you want until your skin turns blue, this was what i responded to " It won't be a popular opinion but he wasn't given the opportunities Ole has "

Which is neither intelligent or popular.
Hmm I think that's a fair argument, no?

I'd say they were comparably shit in their first seven months in charge and Ole was given a much bigger transfer budget. I think if Ole wasn't a club legend he would definitely have been out the door by September/October. Ole has clearly been given more patience by the club than our previous managers were due to his status here.
 

robinamicrowave

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I always thought Moyes' job at West Ham went underappreciated. He was thrown in at the deep end by the mess Bilic had left behind - the Hammers were in the relegation zone and they didn't have a leader on the pitch after Payet's departure. In six months he guided them back to 13th and made Arnautovic their star player. I thought he was unfairly sacked and they're currently no better off after two seasons under Pellegrini, despite playing "progressive football" and spending a lot of money on players who haven't delivered. I don't think he's got what it takes to produce a top half team anymore but I think any team currently in the bottom six could do worse than turn to him as a bit of a firefighter.
 

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I always thought Moyes' job at West Ham went underappreciated. He was thrown in at the deep end by the mess Bilic had left behind - the Hammers were in the relegation zone and they didn't have a leader on the pitch after Payet's departure. In six months he guided them back to 13th and made Arnautovic their star player. I thought he was unfairly sacked and they're currently no better off after two seasons under Pellegrini, despite playing "progressive football" and spending a lot of money on players who haven't delivered. I don't think he's got what it takes to produce a top half team anymore but I think any team currently in the bottom six could do worse than turn to him as a bit of a firefighter.
This is correct entirely. And while we're at it, Sunderland haven't exactly improved since Moyes departure. In fact they've somehow got far worse. That club has problems that Moyes was is in no way responsible for and it is unfair to pin his lack of success there on him.

Real Sociedad? Well, that one is on Moyes - but given his lack of Spanish it's understandable he may struggle there.
 

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Hmm I think that's a fair argument, no?

I'd say they were comparably shit in their first seven months in charge and Ole was given a much bigger transfer budget. I think if Ole wasn't a club legend he would definitely have been out the door by September/October. Ole has clearly been given more patience by the club than our previous managers were due to his status here.
It's as much that as it is the fact United have changed managers several times since Moyes was appointed and there is now a wider recognition that simply changing the manager doesn't get to the root of the performance issues.
 

robinamicrowave

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This is correct entirely. And while we're at it, Sunderland haven't exactly improved since Moyes departure. In fact they've somehow got far worse. That club has problems that Moyes was is in no way responsible for and it is unfair to pin his lack of success there on him.

Real Sociedad? Well, that one is on Moyes - but given his lack of Spanish it's understandable he may struggle there.
All things considered I don't think Moyes' CV is that terrible. He had one awful year at United and he made a mistake trying his hand at La Liga, but every other job he's had has either been a success (relative to expectations) or affected by things beyond his control. I think it would be a bit cowardly of Norwich and Southampton to abandon their larger projects because of bad starts to the season but right now Watford and Everton could do with a bit of goodwill.
 

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Moyes is not an elite manager and never will be but clubs trying to keep their head above water could do a lot worse. Taking Everton into the top four seems an incredible achievement in retrospect. He made a number of mistakes when he took us over which kind of stacked the deck against him - not least changing the whole coaching staff.That said I reckon if you asked supporters of other clubs in the league most of them would still take him over Ole to be their boss - that's not saying much to be fair.
 

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Hmm I think that's a fair argument, no?

I'd say they were comparably shit in their first seven months in charge and Ole was given a much bigger transfer budget. I think if Ole wasn't a club legend he would definitely have been out the door by September/October. Ole has clearly been given more patience by the club than our previous managers were due to his status here.
I reckon it's an extremely simplistic view, ignoring several key factors. First of all, Moyes took over a squad that was in a much better state, secondly the transfer budget claim is overstated. Moyes came up with a list of transfers targets that was naive at best, like believing that there was a chance Ronaldo would return, deciding it was important to pursue Bale until he was officially a Real Madrid player, the interest in Fabregas, deciding to shelf the interest in Alcantara because he hadn't had time to personally scout him and he was unsure of his qualities...Unfortunately, all this coincided with Woodward being a complete rookie. Completely unrealistic deals, while Moyes was afraid of how it would look if Fellaini was our first signing, which resulted in us waiting until deadline day before signing him. Adjusted for inflation he was almost £60mill. Moyes, the genius that he was, then decided to play him as a defensive midfielder, giving the opposition a highway towards our defense, essentially exposing every weakness in Rio and Vidic instead of protecting them and using their strengths.

He just didn't have a clue whatsoever about how he wanted us to line up, which explains the absurd tactics changes from possession style football, crossing only, counter to hoofing.

Don't think he ever understood the size of the job, easily shown in his press conf after the Olympiakos match.

Ole inherited a mess, a squad in dire straits and no clear direction. While i doubt he's going to be the one in charge in 2 years from now, i'm convinced that the changes he's helping implement is going to lay the foundations for future success.
 

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I reckon it's an extremely simplistic view, ignoring several key factors. First of all, Moyes took over a squad that was in a much better state, secondly the transfer budget claim is overstated. Moyes came up with a list of transfers targets that was naive at best, like believing that there was a chance Ronaldo would return, deciding it was important to pursue Bale until he was officially a Real Madrid player, the interest in Fabregas, deciding to shelf the interest in Alcantara because he hadn't had time to personally scout him and he was unsure of his qualities...Unfortunately, all this coincided with Woodward being a complete rookie. Completely unrealistic deals, while Moyes was afraid of how it would look if Fellaini was our first signing, which resulted in us waiting until deadline day before signing him. Adjusted for inflation he was almost £60mill. Moyes, the genius that he was, then decided to play him as a defensive midfielder, giving the opposition a highway towards our defense, essentially exposing every weakness in Rio and Vidic instead of protecting them and using their strengths.

He just didn't have a clue whatsoever about how he wanted us to line up, which explains the absurd tactics changes from possession style football, crossing only, counter to hoofing.

Don't think he ever understood the size of the job, easily shown in his press conf after the Olympiakos match.

Ole inherited a mess, a squad in dire straits and no clear direction. While i doubt he's going to be the one in charge in 2 years from now, i'm convinced that the changes he's helping implement is going to lay the foundations for future success.
You could write a big list of all the feck ups Ole has made here too though and his results are actually worse than Moyes were. It's pretty clearly he hasn't been able to deal with the size of the job either.

If Ole wasn't a club legend do you really think he'd still be here? Hell, it's the only reason he got here in the first place, at least Moyes (somewhat) earned the opportunity.
 

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You could write a big list of all the feck ups Ole has made here too though and his results are actually worse than Moyes were. It's pretty clearly he hasn't been able to deal with the size of the job either.

If Ole wasn't a club legend do you really think he'd still be here? Hell, it's the only reason he got here in the first place, at least Moyes (somewhat) earned the opportunity.
Ah, good one, i remember when the majority on here thought that Mourinho was doing a better job at United than Klopp at Liverpool, or when the majority failed to see all the issues with Mkhi's performances. Short term results aren't all that interesting, it's whats behind the results that matter. Moyes looked more clueless at United than Ole has done so far, luck of the dice doesn't change much.

He wouldn't be here in the first place if it wasn't for his status at the club, but that barely matters. Managerial appointments are often coincidences, like Poch ending up at Tottenham to begin with
 

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Ah, good one, i remember when the majority on here thought that Mourinho was doing a better job at United than Klopp at Liverpool, or when the majority failed to see all the issues with Mkhi's performances. Short term results aren't all that interesting, it's whats behind the results that matter. Moyes looked more clueless at United than Ole has done so far, luck of the dice doesn't change much.

He wouldn't be here in the first place if it wasn't for his status at the club, but that barely matters. Managerial appointments are often coincidences, like Poch ending up at Tottenham to begin with
Wait, what? Can you explain that one to me please? How was it a coincidence? He had already proven himself worthy of the chance at Southampton. Ole had proven nothing before we took him as caretaker.

The majority thought Mourinho was doing better than Klopp.. well firstly I fail to see how that's in any way relevant, and secondly, I don't remember it but I'm happy for you to show me the threads where the majority said that because it's an interesting one.
 

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I reckon it's an extremely simplistic view, ignoring several key factors. First of all, Moyes took over a squad that was in a much better state, secondly the transfer budget claim is overstated. Moyes came up with a list of transfers targets that was naive at best, like believing that there was a chance Ronaldo would return, deciding it was important to pursue Bale until he was officially a Real Madrid player, the interest in Fabregas, deciding to shelf the interest in Alcantara because he hadn't had time to personally scout him and he was unsure of his qualities...Unfortunately, all this coincided with Woodward being a complete rookie. Completely unrealistic deals, while Moyes was afraid of how it would look if Fellaini was our first signing, which resulted in us waiting until deadline day before signing him. Adjusted for inflation he was almost £60mill. Moyes, the genius that he was, then decided to play him as a defensive midfielder, giving the opposition a highway towards our defense, essentially exposing every weakness in Rio and Vidic instead of protecting them and using their strengths.

He just didn't have a clue whatsoever about how he wanted us to line up, which explains the absurd tactics changes from possession style football, crossing only, counter to hoofing.

Don't think he ever understood the size of the job, easily shown in his press conf after the Olympiakos match.

Ole inherited a mess, a squad in dire straits and no clear direction. While i doubt he's going to be the one in charge in 2 years from now, i'm convinced that the changes he's helping implement is going to lay the foundations for future success.
The squad Moyes had taken over had only just won the flipping league. I really don't get how people look at results or points tallies and neglect this for, as you say, a simplistic comparison.
 

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Wait, what? Can you explain that one to me please? How was it a coincidence? He had already proven himself worthy of the chance at Southampton. Ole had proven nothing before we took him as caretaker.

The majority thought Mourinho was doing better than Klopp.. well firstly I fail to see how that's in any way relevant, and secondly, I don't remember it but I'm happy for you to show me the threads where the majority said that because it's an interesting one.
You misunderstood the point, it wasn't about being proven or not, just that quite a lot of the appointments are coincidences where the timing is the most important factor. Tottenham wanted LVG, he turned them down as we had approached him as well, as a result they turned to Poch. Coincidence. Same with Klopp to Liverpool, coincidence where the timing was perfect for them as all the other top clubs had just hired someone, if it had happened one season earlier he'd be somewhere else. Us hiring Moyes in the first place is simply a series of unfortunate events unfolding at the worst possible time. As such, i couldn't really be less bothered about how someone ended up with the job

It's relevant because fans are generally idiots. There's a reason the Jurgen Klopp thread was named Jurgen Flop for long periods, where people took the piss out of their performances, especially the season where we finished 2nd, while anyone with half a brain should've seen that Liverpool were slowly building towards something and gradually improving. Not that it's much of a surprise, given the average supporters inability to see Mkhi's performances for what they were because he managed to pop up with a goal or an assist. It's a general inability to look behind the results. We can win the next 10 games playing worse than we did against Sheffield United and the majority of fans would be ecstatic about how we are doing.

Unfortunately we find ourselves in a situation where we need a proper rebuild where we're thinking about the long term future and not just a season from now. Mourinho went ahead and spent £181 mill on Pogba, Mkhi, Bailly and Lindelof. 2 seasons later he's livid because he's not allowed to replace all of them. Personally i'm happy to let Ole have a proper go, as i'm convinced he has the best interest of the club at heart and not his own personal ego. Hopefully our centre midfield returns from injury sooner rather than later, and that we're able to field our strongest 11 for the majority of the season.
 

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Hmm I think that's a fair argument, no?

I'd say they were comparably shit in their first seven months in charge and Ole was given a much bigger transfer budget. I think if Ole wasn't a club legend he would definitely have been out the door by September/October. Ole has clearly been given more patience by the club than our previous managers were due to his status here.
Solskjaer hasn't even completed a full season yet. The goal for him will be CL qualification, just as it was for Moyes and Van Gaal if he fails then just like Moyes and Van Gaal he will be sacked i reckon. Both were given virtually a full season and 2 transfer windows. Solskjaer was only appointed full time in March (Moyes was appointed in May), he's had only one transfer window since then. So he hasn't really been given more patience has he.

Moyes had more money available than he spent. Plus the £65-70m he did spend went a lot further back in 2013 than it would today.
 

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You misunderstood the point, it wasn't about being proven or not, just that quite a lot of the appointments are coincidences where the timing is the most important factor. Tottenham wanted LVG, he turned them down as we had approached him as well, as a result they turned to Poch. Coincidence. Same with Klopp to Liverpool, coincidence where the timing was perfect for them as all the other top clubs had just hired someone, if it had happened one season earlier he'd be somewhere else. Us hiring Moyes in the first place is simply a series of unfortunate events unfolding at the worst possible time. As such, i couldn't really be less bothered about how someone ended up with the job

It's relevant because fans are generally idiots. There's a reason the Jurgen Klopp thread was named Jurgen Flop for long periods, where people took the piss out of their performances, especially the season where we finished 2nd, while anyone with half a brain should've seen that Liverpool were slowly building towards something and gradually improving. Not that it's much of a surprise, given the average supporters inability to see Mkhi's performances for what they were because he managed to pop up with a goal or an assist. It's a general inability to look behind the results. We can win the next 10 games playing worse than we did against Sheffield United and the majority of fans would be ecstatic about how we are doing.

Unfortunately we find ourselves in a situation where we need a proper rebuild where we're thinking about the long term future and not just a season from now. Mourinho went ahead and spent £181 mill on Pogba, Mkhi, Bailly and Lindelof. 2 seasons later he's livid because he's not allowed to replace all of them. Personally i'm happy to let Ole have a proper go, as i'm convinced he has the best interest of the club at heart and not his own personal ego. Hopefully our centre midfield returns from injury sooner rather than later, and that we're able to field our strongest 11 for the majority of the season.
No I don't misunderstand the point, because it's a stupid point. Poch went to Spurs because he earned it. Ole came to us because he used to play here and we needed a manager til the end of the season. Poch being available or not is irrelevant. What you're basically trying to say is that every appointment must be pure coincidence and not due to the club deciding if they're the right fit based on previous achievements.

Have you got sources for the Jose > Klopp statement or not?
 

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Fecking hell, is there not a single thread on this site that does not end up with some Ole discussions? There are about a million Ole threads already

Moyes back at Everton would be fun, but i doubt he would do as well as he did when he left them. They have taken a pretty big plunge in quality imo
 

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The squad Moyes had taken over had only just won the flipping league. I really don't get how people look at results or points tallies and neglect this for, as you say, a simplistic comparison.
He's also had the most difficult task on his hands though. Woodward's first year, taking over SAF (I guess everybody would fail at that), our standards weren't as low as they are now, experienced and titled players who were never going to take to somebody with such shitty CV after SAF, etc.

He was never good enough for us though, mind.
 

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It's as much that as it is the fact United have changed managers several times since Moyes was appointed and there is now a wider recognition that simply changing the manager doesn't get to the root of the performance issues.
Well surely if you keep on hiring and firing managers one day you'll land a Ferguson.
 

VJ1762

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Well surely if you keep on hiring and firing managers one day you'll land a Ferguson.
I don't think any other manager is going to be staying at a top league in europe for more than 5/6 years in the same club. Things eventually go stale.