Is football the only sport where cheating is encouraged?

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Yes he cheated but didn't force Martial to react in the way that he did - especially with putting his hand on his face/neck area. If Martial had simply pushed him away then it would have been a stern warning or possibly a yellow card. The rules are very clear in the sense that you cannot go away with violent conduct which Martial demonstrated.

Calling Lamela names isn't going to change it really. What these type of threads do is take focus away from the real issue behind the red card which was Martial's behavior and not Lamela's chicanery. Lots of people face this type of behavior in their lives without lashing out like how Martial did. Many of us here wouldn't have bat an eyelid if Lamela was also sent off which tells us that we are looking to even scores and not eliminate the behavior.
where have I called Lamela names? Unless you mean calling him a cheat, which I can’t see how that’s arguable? That’s not name calling, it’s factual, he’s a cheat.

I also specifically said that Martial should not escape punishment.

no way am I condoning what he did.

I don’t think you read my post, it really your reply is completely incoherent to what I wrote.

you are right that most people don’t react in the same way is Martial did in “real life”, but I’ll tell you this, even fewer people would have reacted in the way Lamela did.
 

Vidyoyo

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Apart from the very rare cases, there is no way to determine beyond a reasonable doubt whether a player dived, tripped or was genuinely fouled, which is why it will never be stamped out of the game until the players decide to stop cheating.

There is only so much the officials can do.
True but officials making subjective calls is basically their job. They have carte blanche to decide if a foul is reckless enough to be a red, or pulling out a yellow whenever they feel like it so in theory could be asked to stamp out play-acting.

In the case of Lamela/Martial. Both should have been sent off IMO. Lamela for the initial foul - which I'd deem as physical provocation which should be punished way more often - and Martial for raising his hands.
 
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TrustInJanuzaj

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Apart from the very rare cases, there is no way to determine beyond a reasonable doubt whether a player dived, tripped or was genuinely fouled, which is why it will never be stamped out of the game until the players decide to stop cheating.

There is only so much the officials can do.
Thus they should put in some wording which says ' the player can react in a way expected in any normal situation be that on the street, In work etc' . I can guarantee you if I slap someone on the street they won't go to ground and thus its a dive and by my rules a sending off.
 

POF

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Sophisticated people call that gamesmanship, the only issue with football is the lack of finesse. In the NHL skaters will sometimes hook their opponents and pretend that they are the ones victims of hooking, there is also the technique of elevating the opponents sticks in order to get a high-stick penalty.
I agree that it's gamesmanship. It's clever and it's about using your smarts to gain an advantage. Being clever isn't cheating in the same way being a naive moron isn't morally superior.

Amongst all sports fans I know, the answer is what Lamela did. 100%.
Fair enough. I think it would be the same with a lot of fans who prefer the physicality of sport.

From the point of view of parents being happy to let their kids play a sport, watching someone do what Lamela did as a "despicable act" in a game is preferable than watching a man mountain punching someone in the head.
 

Ibi Dreams

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I don't have a problem with tactical fouls, to be honest. I see them as an interesting strategic part of the game, so long as they are punished consistently. A player does it once, he helps his team but gets a yellow and can't do it again. The problem is that referees aren't consistent with punishing them - some of that is understandable but sometimes players just seem to get away with really obvious ones.

I'd say the same about something like deliberate handball to stop a goal. I don't exactly have a problem with it so long as the player gets a straight red and the other team has a penalty.
 
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Thus they should put in some wording which says ' the player can react in a way expected in any normal situation be that on the street, In work etc' . I can guarantee you if I slap someone on the street they won't go to ground and thus its a dive and by my rules a sending off.
if VAR can determine whether someone is off side by 1mm, or whether someone is jumping with their arms outside of a ‘normal silhouette’, then it’s pretty bloody easy to determine what someone is play acting.

it would not be hard to Eradicate most cases, if there was a desire to do so.

Lamela should have received a retrospective 3 match ban for simulation and cheating. Set the precedent a few times, and most of it will stop.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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if VAR can determine whether someone is off side by 1mm, or whether someone is jumping with their arms outside of a ‘normal silhouette’, then it’s pretty bloody easy to determine what someone is play acting.

it would not be hard to Eradicate most cases, if there was a desire to do so.

Lamela should have received a retrospective 3 match ban for simulation and cheating. Set the precedent a few times, and most of it will stop.
That's exactly right, you can't catch every case and some are more clear cut than others but in examples like this one it's clear to see who is embarrassing the sport.
 
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From the point of view of parents being happy to let their kids play a sport, watching someone do what Lamela did as a "despicable act" in a game is preferable than watching a man mountain punching someone in the head.
that’s rubbish.

I’d much prefer my son to have a scuffle than be a cheat. One is heat of the moment, and is a reaction. Will be instantly regrettable, and he can learn how to be better prepared to not let it happen again.

The other is a pre-mediated mindset of a cheat, and I’d be asking the question, if he’s willing to do that to a fellow footballer/ colleague/ friend/ classmate, then what else is he willing to do? It would take a lot of work to change.

do you have children?
 

POF

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Lamela should have received a retrospective 3 match ban for simulation and cheating. Set the precedent a few times, and most of it will stop.
Why should he get a ban if the rules are refereed the way they are?

If he didn't go down, would Martial have been sent off? Clearly the answer is no. Then the rules are the problem because based on the rules of the game (or how they are being implemented) going down was exactly the right thing to do.

If the ref would have sanctioned Martial the exact same way whether Lamela ignored the contact or dropped like he did, then he would have had no incentive to do it. That's the change that needs to be made.
 

georgipep

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Why should he get a ban if the rules are refereed the way they are?

If he didn't go down, would Martial have been sent off? Clearly the answer is no. Then the rules are the problem because based on the rules of the game (or how they are being implemented) going down was exactly the right thing to do.

If the ref would have sanctioned Martial the exact same way whether Lamela ignored the contact or dropped like he did, then he would have had no incentive to do it. That's the change that needs to be made.
I agree with the rationale behind the dive. He did it to get the desired outcome. Fine.

But should he get punished for initial strike on Martial? Is it a foul only if one player goes to the ground? When VAR reviews it, do they only see Martial's hand hitting Lamela's face and not the preceeding action?

I agree with you that it is unreasonable to punish Lamela for the dive but is it unreasonable to expect punishment for the initial provocation (which is also against the rules and punishable offence)?
 

Oo0AahCantona

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They do it (contact sport) because they try to get an edge to win. It's not like fan would cheer and celebrate cheating itself. It's just part of package of the sport. Not just football culture vs other sport culture.
Basketball isn't a contact sport, there's just a large degree of wiggleroom given by the fact that for all intents and purposes it is a contact sport in application of the rules.
 

POF

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that’s rubbish.

I’d much prefer my son to have a scuffle than be a cheat. One is heat of the moment, and is a reaction. Will be instantly regrettable, and he can learn how to be better prepared to not let it happen again.

The other is a pre-mediated mindset of a cheat, and I’d be asking the question, if he’s willing to do that to a fellow footballer/ colleague/ friend/ classmate, then what else is he willing to do? It would take a lot of work to change.

do you have children?
Yes. One plays football 2 years above his age group and rugby with kids the same age.

I'd never even think about safety being a concern with football even with the huge age gap but I am concerned about rugby as he gets older.

Either way, you are completely misinterpreting my point. I'm not saying I want him to learn to cheat. I'm saying that all sports have dark arts. One is dangerous, the other is not.

If the sport a child plays teaches a kid to be a dishonest human being, I'd seriously question my parenting skills.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Why should he get a ban if the rules are refereed the way they are?

If he didn't go down, would Martial have been sent off? Clearly the answer is no. Then the rules are the problem because based on the rules of the game (or how they are being implemented) going down was exactly the right thing to do.

If the ref would have sanctioned Martial the exact same way whether Lamela ignored the contact or dropped like he did, then he would have had no incentive to do it. That's the change that needs to be made.
But that then raises the question, if Martials action wasn't enough to cause damage/reaction/anything then did he really do enough to get sent off? If people didn't dive at everything and someone went to ground you'd know they really have been struck!
 

JPRouve

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Basketball isn't a contact sport, there's just a large degree of wiggleroom given by the fact that for all intents and purposes it is a contact sport in application of the rules.
Basketball is a contact sport.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I agree with the rationale behind the dive. He did it to get the desired outcome. Fine.

But should he get punished for initial strike on Martial? Is it a foul only if one player goes to the ground? When VAR reviews it, do they only see Martial's hand hitting Lamela's face and not the preceeding action?

I agree with you that it is unreasonable to punish Lamela for the dive but is it unreasonable to expect punishment for the initial provocation (which is also against the rules and punishable offence)?
Genuine question, why? It's only like that because people accept this rubbish.
 

POF

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I agree with the rationale behind the dive. He did it to get the desired outcome. Fine.

But should he get punished for initial strike on Martial? Is it a foul only if one player goes to the ground? When VAR reviews it, do they only see Martial's hand hitting Lamela's face and not the preceeding action?

I agree with you that it is unreasonable to punish Lamela for the dive but is it unreasonable to expect punishment for the initial provocation (which is also against the rules and punishable offence)?
But why didn't VAR investigate the provocation? Because Martial reacted rather than falling over like a like a little girl. The rules are flawed. They tell the players "if someone fouls you, fall over and cry. If you don't, you won't get a free kick".

As Booker T would say, don't hate the player, hate the game.
 

POF

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But that then raises the question, if Martials action wasn't enough to cause damage/reaction/anything then did he really do enough to get sent off? If people didn't dive at everything and someone went to ground you'd know they really have been struck!
Absolutely. The correct action was no cards for either and tell Lamela to get up and stop being such a baby.
 

GameOn

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Diego Maradona failed drugs tests but that has not stopped many from saying he is the greatest they ever saw
I can only speak for myself, but Maradona going full Tony Montana still doesn't change the fact that he was the greatest football player I ever saw on the pitch.
 

JPRouve

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Absolutely. The correct action was no cards for either and tell Lamela to get up and stop being such a baby.
The correct action was to talk to both and warn them that it was the last time they act like that. And the main issue with Lamela isn't that he dove but that he elbowed Martial and only got a yellow while Martial got a red for his reaction which is a bit daft.
 

padr81

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But I'd argue that's precisely the issue. What Martial did isn't violent, he isn't going to hurt Lamella doing that is he? I understand that it's a red under current rules, I just think its a clear example of prioritising the wrong issue. In that incident, one player has made a mockery of the sport, cheated and play-acted and I'll give you a hint it wasn't Martial. What people are actually saying/condoning is that Martial should have dived to the floor screaming when Lamella tried to elbow him but surely that's not the solution, isn't it much simpler to just punish the player diving to the ground, faking an injury?

Also, I don't know where you live but if someone tried to elbow me in the street (or at work) i don't think id respond by giving them a light tap on the head!
Neither player needed to hit the deck, nor did either player need to strike the other in the face. Lamela being smaller kind of got away because he hit Martial high on the chest and his forearm slid up. Martial tapped him directly on the face. The decision was understandable. There is an option where Martial could have just pushed him away without either hitting his face or diving. Lamela's behavior doesn't excuse Martials nor vice versa.
 

POF

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The correct action was to talk to both and warn them that it was the last time they act like that. And the main issue with Lamela isn't that he dove but that he elbowed Martial and only got a yellow while Martial got a red for his reaction which is a bit daft.
It was in the chest so not deemed violent conduct. Martial's was in the face so deemed to be.

That's the rule (or interpretation of the rule). It's an utter nonsense but it's hard to blame Lamela if that's the framework he's operating in.
 

RashyForPM

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Diving to prevent yourself getting hurt is alright imo. I vividly remember Pogba doing it when some West Ham plodder tried to shatter his kneecaps in 2016, and me being extremely annoyed when the ref booked him for it.

However, blatant cheating where you stick your leg out or Lamela the other day should be met with a season ban. Drastic measures must be taken to stamp nonsense like that out of the game. See if any player cheats then!
 
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Why should he get a ban if the rules are refereed the way they are?

If he didn't go down, would Martial have been sent off? Clearly the answer is no. Then the rules are the problem because based on the rules of the game (or how they are being implemented) going down was exactly the right thing to do.

If the ref would have sanctioned Martial the exact same way whether Lamela ignored the contact or dropped like he did, then he would have had no incentive to do it. That's the change that needs to be made.
im Not saying the rules aren’t a problem. Clearly they are. read between the lines, I’m not saying Lamela should have a ban, given the current circumstances, but yes absolutely if we were playing the game how we should be playing then he should be banned. What he did was worse than Martial. Again, not saying Martial should not be sent off, he raised his hands and has to go.

However, the rules are clearly not set up to prevent cheating. Rules and laws can’t expressing count for everything, when rule makers set out the football rules, clearly they didn’t expect players to actively cheat to get players sent off. Very sad that we have gone that way.

do you actually think what Lamela did is acceptable?

is that how you want sport to be played?
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Neither player needed to hit the deck, nor did either player need to strike the other in the face. Lamela being smaller kind of got away because he hit Martial high on the chest and his forearm slid up. Martial tapped him directly on the face. The decision was understandable. There is an option where Martial could have just pushed him away without either hitting his face or diving. Lamela's behavior doesn't excuse Martials nor vice versa.
Do we not think that's a bit soft though honestly? You don't get this level of patheticness in any other sport, he's tapped him in the face who cares? It's hardly violent. Rugby players regularly striker one another and a hell of a lot of the time they don't even get a yellow.
 

JPRouve

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It was in the chest so not deemed violent conduct. Martial's was in the face so deemed to be.

That's the rule (or interpretation of the rule). It's an utter nonsense but it's hard to blame Lamela if that's the framework he's operating in.
Which is daft, by the same token Maguire should punch attackers in the chest area on the half way line if it's not a violent conduct, he will only get a caution.
 
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Yes. One plays football 2 years above his age group and rugby with kids the same age.

I'd never even think about safety being a concern with football even with the huge age gap but I am concerned about rugby as he gets older.

Either way, you are completely misinterpreting my point. I'm not saying I want him to learn to cheat. I'm saying that all sports have dark arts. One is dangerous, the other is not.

If the sport a child plays teaches a kid to be a dishonest human being, I'd seriously question my parenting skills.
do you think he could get away with “doing a Lamela” in rugby? Not a bloody chance.

I’m not misrepresenting what you said. I would prefer my son to have a fight with another kid, than cheat like Lamela does. One of those behaviours can be rectified easily, the other is a serious character flaw. I am in no way questioning your parenting to be clear. This is my opinion of my son.

playacting on the pitch will not tolerated.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Yes. One plays football 2 years above his age group and rugby with kids the same age.

I'd never even think about safety being a concern with football even with the huge age gap but I am concerned about rugby as he gets older.

Either way, you are completely misinterpreting my point. I'm not saying I want him to learn to cheat. I'm saying that all sports have dark arts. One is dangerous, the other is not.

If the sport a child plays teaches a kid to be a dishonest human being, I'd seriously question my parenting skills.
I don’t know about dishonesty in a broader context but my son plays a few different sports and the only sport in which I see young kids try to deceive the ref by diving or feigning injury is when he’s playing football. Which always makes me cringe. Surely you’ve noticed this too? The kids are obviously mimicking the behaviour of professional footballers they see on tv. And that’s a shame.

Fights can happen in any sport and are generally dealt with harshly. Certainly at an underage level anyway. When adults play rugby they’re probably less likely to get lengthy bans for throwing fists than during football but I don’t see that as a problem. No player every got seriously injured from a punch while playing rugby. The serious injuries almost always happen in scrums, rucks or during clumsy/reckless tackles.
 
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JPRouve

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do you think he could get away with “doing a Lamela” in rugby? Not a bloody chance.

I’m not misrepresenting what you said. I would prefer my son to have a fight with another kid, than cheat like Lamela does. One of those behaviours can be rectified easily, the other is a serious character flaw. I am in no way questioning your parenting to be clear. This is my opinion of my son.

playacting on the pitch will not tolerated.
What do you mean by getting away with it?
 

POF

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im Not saying the rules aren’t a problem. Clearly they are. read between the lines, I’m not saying Lamela should have a ban, given the current circumstances, but yes absolutely if we were playing the game how we should be playing then he should be banned. What he did was worse than Martial. Again, not saying Martial should not be sent off, he raised his hands and has to go.

However, the rules are clearly not set up to prevent cheating. Rules and laws can’t expressing count for everything, when rule makers set out the football rules, clearly they didn’t expect players to actively cheat to get players sent off. Very sad that we have gone that way.

do you actually think what Lamela did is acceptable?

is that how you want sport to be played?
Not at all. It was an utter farce, ruined the game and was an embarrassment. But, I can't agree with "Lamela should be banned". He shouldn't.

They need to change the rules (or interpretation of the rules) so he is not incentivised to dive in that situation. Even if he got a retrospective 3 match ban, many may feel it's still worth it if it earned a penalty/red card that won his team the game.

Not by conning the ref. They looked at it on VAR and still concluded that was the right decision.

By the way, one thing that always bothered me about your username, which is completely irrational on my part. You do know it's "Clayton Blackmore" and he was right footed?
 

Dirty Schwein

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It's funny how football is known as the beautiful game yet it's loosen for play acting and cheating :lol:
 

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Could you imagine a runner pretending he was tripped by a competitor to get him disqualified in a marathon race? There would be an outcry and rightly so, but it happens all the time, in soccer games, players are encouraged to simulate contact and feign injury. Pep Guardiola's sides are clearly coached to make tactical fouls as soon as they lose possession, as admitted by Arteta. Lamela pretended he was punched in the face by an 80s Mike Tyson to get Martial sent off a few weeks ago and it was seen by many as part of the game and Martial was naive to fall for it. Even the commentators criticise a player if he doesn't go to ground to try and win a penalty even though the contact was clearly not enough to knock him off his feet, I can't think of another sport where this kind of behaviour is not only condoned but widely embraced. In other sports as well when someone fails a drugs test they are practically shunned by the entire sporting community, in football fans gather rank and spend ages defending them and can't wait for them to come back from suspension, the same applies if they are suspended for some outrageous act - from Suarez and Terry's racist comments to Ferdinand missing a drugs test, fans will perform moral gymnastics to defend players on their teams. Diego Maradona failed drugs tests but that has not stopped many from saying he is the greatest they ever saw, Ben Johnson in athletics is dismissed as a drugs cheat because he failed a drugs test, his breaking of the world record dismissed because of the controversy. Then again maybe it adds to the drama and sets football aside from other sports?

I think one issue is that few referees will call a foul for what it is if the fouled player doesn't fall to the ground.

Football has relatively clear rules and it's just natural that players try to stretch them as much as possible. If the result is to your advantage (which means either the benefit outweighs the penalty or that you don't expect "persecution") all things considered, almost every athlete will break the rules.

Maybe there's more leeway in football than in other sports which might have to do with the there being quite a huge gap between the two ways of punishing rule breaking. A yellow card has almost zero effect while a red card is a very harsh disadvantage. But the general principle is the same across all sports. You've got fouls in basketball, tennis and so forth and the respective athletes are at the very least accepting the risk of breaking the rules in those sports, too, if they think it's to their advantage.
 
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Not at all. It was an utter farce, ruined the game and was an embarrassment. But, I can't agree with "Lamela should be banned". He shouldn't.

They need to change the rules (or interpretation of the rules) so he is not incentivised to dive in that situation. Even if he got a retrospective 3 match ban, many may feel it's still worth it if it earned a penalty/red card that won his team the game.

Not by conning the ref. They looked at it on VAR and still concluded that was the right decision.

By the way, one thing that always bothered me about your username, which is completely irrational on my part. You do know it's "Clayton Blackmore" and he was right footed?
it’s not irrational, it annoys me! I remember trying to put an apostrophe in the user name and it didn’t work, and missed the typo. I knew he was right footed.
 

nokillingmoths

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Living abroad and being Irish I have a lot of friends who play GAA, Aussie Rules and rugby - they cringe at the antics of football players. They dismiss certain players who are seen as hardmen in soccer as only being "soccer tough" for example. They see elements of the sport as an embarrassment and how can people act that way call themselves men, saying if you did that in their sport you would not only be banned and humiliated you would also get a bollocking from your own team mates.
Classic rugby bloody bloke chat that.
 

POF

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do you think he could get away with “doing a Lamela” in rugby? Not a bloody chance.

I’m not misrepresenting what you said. I would prefer my son to have a fight with another kid, than cheat like Lamela does. One of those behaviours can be rectified easily, the other is a serious character flaw. I am in no way questioning your parenting to be clear. This is my opinion of my son.

playacting on the pitch will not tolerated.
Fair enough. I don't think it's a character flaw at all. If someone rolls around on the floor to win a penalty in a kid's football match, it doesn't mean I should prepare to be attending their fraud trial in years to come.

On the contrary. My point is that in football, that's what the rules encourage you to do. In my opinion, most people's issue with it is that they see football as a macho sport and see diving as "soft".

I don’t know about dishonesty in a broader context but my son plays a few different sports and the only sport in which I see young kids try to deceive the ref by diving or feigning injury is when he’s playing football. Which always makes me cringe. Surely you’ve noticed this too? The kids are obviously mimicking the behaviour of professional footballers they see on tv. And that’s a shame.

Fights can happen in any sport and are generally dealt with harshly. Certainly at an underage level anyway. When adults play rugby they’re probably less likely to get lengthy bans for throwing fists than during football but I don’t see that as a problem. No player every got seriously injured from a punch while playing rugby. The serious injuries almost always happen in scrums, rucks or during clumsy/reckless tackles.
Although it's certainly less prevalent in Australia, I do absolutely notice it. I just don't think it matters. Here, in most cases, the ref just plays on!

At the end of the day, it's kids' sport and not some life lesson on morality. You even see it with professional players, the most irritating characters on the pitch can be the nicest people off it.

Seeing kids dive doesn't bother me in the slightest. I actually find it quite funny.
 

padr81

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Do we not think that's a bit soft though honestly? You don't get this level of patheticness in any other sport, he's tapped him in the face who cares? It's hardly violent. Rugby players regularly striker one another and a hell of a lot of the time they don't even get a yellow.
Absolutely not just a bit soft dude, it was disgusting. I mean Martial barely touched him, but these guys have the rules drilled into them. Here's my thing for a personal point of view Martial went easy on him and Lamela was being a pure cnut, but from a football rule point of view and as a professional Martial should have known better. I get its spur of the moment etc.. but you just can't get away with hitting a face anymore. From my personal pov, Martial got sent off for stupidity not violence.
 

JPRouve

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In this video, you first see something that used to be known, the fake blood substitution. In the second incident, you can see Huget clearly being shot by a sniper in the stands, the third is funny the prop slaps the ball before the scrum half can introduce it. Rugby is a game of cheats and personally I love it.