Absolutely, I've often been told to sneak in dodgy shots at kickboxing. Told to do things like intentionally kick the upper arm so it gets tired and drops (something thats frowned upon) etc..
Is football the only sport where cheating is encouraged?
- Thread starter padzilla
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What kind of cheating are we talking about because there are a few sports where a lot of athletes are doping (i.e., cycling, track and field) and this is obviously encouraged.
Sorry, I missed the last bit. I completely agree with you about punching being far less dangerous than scrums, rucks, etc. It's things like crusher tackles and spear tackles that concern me. Even standard tackles are dangerous at his age. You get some absolute athletic freaks, even at under 8s.
It's just a far more physical game where foul play can have disastrous consequences. Certainly less so that rolling around on the grass claiming a penalty.
But a red card does little to deter them from repeating the offence, so I think it's time an appropriate form punishment was introduced; like being forced to fellate a donkey live on TV or having your testicles removed with a blunt object, or in the more severe cases (shockingly blatant dives and other dastardly acts of cheating) disallow them access to their twitter accounts for up to 30 days.
You know, a suitable punishment that fits the crime rather than one that allows them to rest up for a couple of weeks.
So true, far better than diveball as it has become.
Hilarious.
Unfortunately, we can't do anything else but hate the game. And the club can't either. They can fume all they want, at best ask for a review of the rules but that's never happening unless the majority of clubs agree which will be kind of admitting guilt, so I doubt that.
It would be fairly easy to hammer a player for simulation / non-sporting conduct but the governing body doesn't care. It adds a bit of extra emotion and flavour to the spectacle. I think the sport would be less interesting without controversy.
I think we can agree to agree on this.
Yes calling him a cheat is taking focus away from the real issue which is Martial's behavior in this case. Football is at the very apex of competitive sport and players will take advantage if they see an opening.
Martial is a professional footballer and has to take the interests of Man Utd into account (his employers) while reacting to an act of aggression on a football pitch. If going down in those circumstances is the socially accepted norm then he should do that instead of taking matters into his own hands. Bringing your A game on the pitch doesn't just involve playing your best football but also involves brining the right attitude and motivation. To Martial, getting even on the pitch was more important than the result of the game and the impact on his fellow team members.
The problem with this thread is that it says football encourages cheating which isn't true in my opinion as there have been several instances where cheaters have been punished and then have been refused legitimate claims due to their reputation. However, there are certain rules and scenarios in football that indirectly incentivize cheating - in this case getting opposition players sent off.
Edit: Just wanted to add that calling anybody a "cheat" is calling him names i.e., labelling him. If that's the case then everyone is a cheat including you, me, and all others on the forum. All of us have gamed the system at least once in our lives to gain an unfair advantage. Lamela cheated in that particular instance which is the fact. He is a "cheat" is a gross generalization as you don't know him personally.
get a grip. Anyone can see what Lamela did was cheating, that’s not calling anyone names.
I don’t condone what Martial did, and don’t see anyone doing so. It was a reaction, it wasn’t “getting even”, that’s pre-meditated I.e Keane on Haaland.
However, it adamant, that firstly Lamela elbowed Martial, which you might consider just as bad, especially as that was unprovoked, and more importantly what he did afterwards is far worse than what you could call barely a slap.
Yes, football does encourage cheating. Why did Lamela fake injury and exaggerate beyond belief being hit? Why did he cheat, he did it to get Martial sent off.
football is not at the very apex of competitive sport. What on earth does that mean, you think football is more competitive than rugby, cricket, basketball, tennis, cycling, running, in fact every sport bar bloody darts?
Oh in which case I agree. What Martial did is stupid under the current rules, all I'm saying is under my rules that should never in a million years be a red card and I sooner see players sent off for what Lamela did, but that's not gonna happen!
Read my edit about the cheating part. I don't think what Lamela did was unprovoked - Martial was marking him I think and there would have been something prior to that incident. I haven't seen it but I will take your word for it.
There are rules within football that can incentivize such behavior from players but that doesn't mean they actively encourage cheating. That doesn't make sense at all.
Don't understand what you mean by the last sentence. Football is the highest revenue generating sport in the world so it is obvious that players will look to gain advantage any way they can.
Really though you are bending over backwards to condone cheating in this thread.
Agree. Never understood why blokes punching each other in a scrum is OK because it is "honest", but playacting upon contact is deemed not. The weird superiority that Rugby fans have about their sport is so strange. Perhaps jealous that the beautiful game is several orders of magnitude more popular and entertaining than their sport?
Yeah the problem is a lack of common sense and the letter of the law for sure. There is hitting a guy in the face like Martial did and hitting a guy in the face like you're Mike Tyson if you know what I mean. Both are red cards under the letter of the law but there is a huge difference in intent to do damage.
clearly I don’t know what you mean by the apex of competitive sport? So your talking about revenue.
so the higher the revenue the more acceptable it is to cheat?
I’ve read your edit. So let’s caveat it.
I consider Lamela to have cheated, cheated in a way that shows its ingrained into his personality, as that is not an instant reaction you take.
But you are right, clearly I don’t know him, so I don’t know if he cheats in every part of his life. Just on the football pitch, in that instance.
Yeh and maybe it is safer to take a strict approach but it does then also encourage players to fake contact/dive in the hope they can get a player sent off for minimal contact which really does leave a stain on the way the game is viewed.
I mean, its not but ok. Speaking as somebody whose primary sport is basketball, played it for 15 years, coached, ran teams, by the letter of the rules its a non contact sport. However, there is a level of accepted contact in order for the game to function.
Flopping in the NBA wasn't really a thing until international players started coming into the league. BTW, I love the way internationals play the game, the movment and passing is so fun to watch; I'm a huge San Antonio Spurs fan, which is typically a team that has more internationals that Americans.
We have all cheated at least once in our lives - it's human nature. Obviously the current laws of the game incentivize players to do it and that needs to be fixed.
Till that status quo isn't changed, players need to be mindful of this as a tactic that opposition players may use against them and prepare for that. Crying out and shaming opponents will not discourage the behavior and won't solve the problem. That will be solved by plugging the gaps in the law.
True, but It's MUCH more of a contact sport than soccer though.
They just need to update the rules. VAR has changed everything so rules around simulation and 'winning' fouls should also be updated.
In the case of Lamela vs Martial. Martial is a red card (this shouldn't be debated regardless of how weak his slap was) and Lamela should also be red (not because he instigates but because his elbow hits Martial's chin).
VAR needs to have a lot more power with retrospective cards; for example the same situation happened and Lamela's elbow did not touch Martial's neck/face the outcome should have been red for Martial & retrospective yellow for Lamela for unsportsmanlike conduct/minor violent conduct.
On diving the only way it leaves the sport is if clubs internally stamp it out, you can't create laws for something so subjective and it's down to the culture of the league overall. If all 20 teams wanted it out of the game, it would happen but they don't.
In the case of Lamela vs Martial. Martial is a red card (this shouldn't be debated regardless of how weak his slap was) and Lamela should also be red (not because he instigates but because his elbow hits Martial's chin).
VAR needs to have a lot more power with retrospective cards; for example the same situation happened and Lamela's elbow did not touch Martial's neck/face the outcome should have been red for Martial & retrospective yellow for Lamela for unsportsmanlike conduct/minor violent conduct.
On diving the only way it leaves the sport is if clubs internally stamp it out, you can't create laws for something so subjective and it's down to the culture of the league overall. If all 20 teams wanted it out of the game, it would happen but they don't.
There has been a gradual allowance and shift to more physicality in top professional leagues because as a spectacle it would be completely shit if play was stopped every 10 seconds because of a minor violation. if your playing at lower levels and you go in for a steal and you gently graze someone's leg or arm as they handle the ball your getting called for it. for example, the only reason screens work is because your blocking a space by forcing a player to run into you and draw contact. forcing officials to rule in favour of the offence or defence due to the contact. a decision gets made either way play doesn't just continue unless there's no contact.
On a practical level basketball is one of the most physically demanding sports there is and there is an absurd amount of physicality, its still no contact in principle though.
I'm a rugby fan so I don't know how to take that.
I don't know a single Rugby fan that cares about the popularity of Rugby or Football, funnily enough you went with something that is quite distasteful about football fans, the "my club is the biggest" or "my sport is the biggest" rhetoric. Most rugby fans I know like other sports, many like to play Touch Rugby which isn't physical and there is more disagreements between League and Union fans.
Which is why it is a contact sport, the term contact sport isn't limited to legal contacts it describes the existence of contact legal or illegal. In the case of Basketball those contacts are illegal but exist in the normal execution of the game which is why it's described as a limited-contact sport because while contacts are part of the game, they are illegal and penalized.
In the case of non-contact sports, contacts don't exist, they are not part of the sport, for example Tennis, Badminton, Swimming or Sprinting among others.
It's just not, but hey ho agree to disagree.
“If he’d have gone down there, it would have been a penalty”
”Yeah he was maybe a bit too honest there...”
”Yeah he was maybe a bit too honest there...”
I don’t know a single football fan in ‘real life’ who cares about the popularity of football. It’s an internet thing. Most are rugby fans as well.I'm a rugby fan so I don't know how to take that.
I don't know a single Rugby fan that cares about the popularity of Rugby or Football, funnily enough you went with something that is quite distasteful about football fans, the "my club is the biggest" or "my sport is the biggest" rhetoric. Most rugby fans I know like other sports, many like to play Touch Rugby which isn't physical and there is more disagreements between League and Union fans.
I've played basketball for twenty years in various leagues and still play on New York City playgrounds and I have to disagree heartily. Not to mention having grown up with guys like Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason looming larger than life over the New York basketball culture; it is/was a bruising, savage maelstrom. That has changed markedly though, since for example Dwyane Wade flopped his way to the 2006 championship with Miami, setting every free throw record imaginable. As a result the NBA has become unwatchable, I barely tune in.
The only good thing I'll say about diving in football is that it makes it real easy to determine which clubs, teams, players, countries I actively will be rooting against.
I'm a massive rugby fan and played for quite a few years too, and I know exactly what you mean. Even when I am playing football these days it annoys me when players go down and try to cheat in order to gain an advantage, never mind when just watching football. I try not to compare too much but it really is shocking the way footballers behave at times.
Unfortunately I can't agree because your definition is wrong, you can check it if you want. And Basketball used to have a lot more contact before the 2000s too.
To be fair though, British invented the name.
Not all teams, but the corruption is a problem. When Liverpool own VAR and City can pay their way out of financial cheating others think they can get away with it too.
They need to give more harsh punnishments for cheating in the game. Maybe red cards using VAR.
They need to give more harsh punnishments for cheating in the game. Maybe red cards using VAR.
Oh they exist and are annoying, talking about how global football is and how much money football generates. It's not just an internet thing, internet just amplifies it.
thankfully I don’t know these people! I mean, who cares?
I blame the refs. They encourage play acting by wanting to see hard falls and stuff. Tripping someone in the box should be a penalty, pulling someone back should be penalty, but unless the player goes star fish, refs don't care.
It is never acceptable to cheat - I agree with you in principle.
However, our players will have to operate within the framework of the rules even though the way they are applied currently creates opportunities for people to cheat. I want the conversation to be focused on what Martial could have done differently instead of pointing out why he did it.
This topic has been debated since ages. Even if the current laws change, there will still be other opportunities for players to exploit - nothing is every water-tight. In such a scenario, our players need to have better control over themselves and put the team's interest ahead. The only exception I feel is when players are being abused (racially or otherwise) because that is an unacceptable environment to work in and shouldn't be tolerated irrespective of the outcome of the game.
Whether or not fouls are called ultimately comes down to referee discretion, and most likely also down to official bodies setting guidelines in order to alter the flow of the games to their discretion, but by the very letter of the rules there are very few areas where you can make legal contact with other players, the most I can move to is "limited contact" in practical application.
For some reason, I don't think it's unlikely we'll see F1 drivers playacting after a crash any time soon... Or faking a crash! (Although Vettel would probably be happy to do that to Ferrari right now.)
Football has some obvious flaws as highlighted recently by Lamela.