Nope, we've played shite with or without him
Is Matic a big reason why we can't build attacks?
- Thread starter Adam-Utd
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Yes, turns like a cruise liner, and takes too many touches and passes backwards a lot.
He has been awful for weeks. Would much rather see Pereira, Fellaini/Fred and Pogba. Matic does not pass the ball forward. He also takes too many touches. He is also a bit slow on the ball. One of the reasons why signing players at his age is bad business. He looks like he needs to be replaced already.
He's the least of our problems. I feel we are automatically a more solid and compose team when he's playing. As for topic, Andreas Pereira should be the one dictating attacks alongside Pogba. Not sure why Jose doesn't play Andreas at all now. Come on Jose, give him a chance and see what he can do. You play him in all of the pre season games and was thoroughly impressed and yet dropped him after one and a half games into the new season
Jose doesn't know what he is doing
Every single player is playing terribly this season (bar Shaw). Can't really blame them.
Lack of movement from forward players, Lukaku in particular. They have no one making runs in front of them, offering themselves or dragging defenders out of position.
He takes too long to release the ball - Pereira should come in for him. We had a very good tempo against Lecister when he played.
None of our CBs can/do build up from the back either. Our buildup play is absolutely wretched.
No individual player is a big reason why the build-up play is not good enough. It's on the manager.
The majority of the reason is that it's the style of play Jose seems to send us out to play.
But in terms of individuals he is a part of the issue for sure, especially if Fellaini is in there with him. It would work alright if we had another busy, mobile player who covers ground and passes forward instead of all of those duties being on Pogba's shoulders. The best midfields have multiple players who can play one and two touch and move together - similar to the way we had Mata, Martial, Pogba and Alexis driving us forward on Saturday. Instead, we have Fellaini and Matic, who are both lumbering and slow footed in addition to being average passers.
Matic could still do a job if he is tasked with sitting, breaking things up and handing the ball off to a pair of Pogba and Andreas or Fred for example. He's in horrible form though at the moment.
But in terms of individuals he is a part of the issue for sure, especially if Fellaini is in there with him. It would work alright if we had another busy, mobile player who covers ground and passes forward instead of all of those duties being on Pogba's shoulders. The best midfields have multiple players who can play one and two touch and move together - similar to the way we had Mata, Martial, Pogba and Alexis driving us forward on Saturday. Instead, we have Fellaini and Matic, who are both lumbering and slow footed in addition to being average passers.
Matic could still do a job if he is tasked with sitting, breaking things up and handing the ball off to a pair of Pogba and Andreas or Fred for example. He's in horrible form though at the moment.
Who are they going to pass to with the DM standing a few feet away from them unmarked?
I assume he (Matic) is doing that, at least in part, because our CBs either can't build up, or have been told not to build up. Since Mourinho arrived we've been relying on our midfielders to drop deep and collect the ball, which is disastrous for our possession game. Again, I don't know if this is a result of instruction, or necessity.
Yeah its impossible to know. All I know is he does it regardless of who we have at the back and Andreas did it when he played too.
He makes me want to gouge my eyes out watching him. It’s not so much his positioning or even really the dithering(which is terrible) it’s how much he kills the momentum when we actually have a break and look like we could do something. It honestly looks like he is tying to sabotage us. It’s worse than Ashley killing momentum at LB, just at the weekend we were breaking and he had 4 options ahead of him all breaking in to space, easy passes, instead he decided to take a safe option and pass it backwards. The break was on to really put Newcastle in danger and he haunted it, it happens game after game after game. I’ve even seen Martial giving him what for for not passing the ball to him when he is breaking in to space.
This is coming from someone who wanted him here, I wouldn’t mind about his movement so much if it wasn’t for this. At times he’ll do well defending for us and then others make a meal of it. I honestly wouldn’t be that fussed if he was moved on or replaced with Carrick, I actually think Carrick would still be an improvement.
This is coming from someone who wanted him here, I wouldn’t mind about his movement so much if it wasn’t for this. At times he’ll do well defending for us and then others make a meal of it. I honestly wouldn’t be that fussed if he was moved on or replaced with Carrick, I actually think Carrick would still be an improvement.
I feel he is better suited to be a ball playing CB in a back two or three. If he has 2 mobile midfielders in front of him it would be best!
No. Lack of movement in the front 3/4 tends to be our issue.
He's a holder in cm, not attacking, he had better 2nd half on Sat, in a system that suited him better. Not at best this season, but it showed how better he can be when we play on the front foot, with quicker passing. But can be better.
Some comment on yt described Matic best. "Instead of a quick 15 yard pass Matic would rather run the ball 10yards to make a 5 yard pass". No one player is the reason we can't build from the back though.
Speaking of which, will Ander be available for the Chelsea game? I hope so.
I feel the same. Would like to give it a try against weaker teams.
However, he needs a rest for a few games.
Keep it then. If there are no forward options play it sideways. Quickly Recycle the ball. Be fecking patient
We dont have to play a forward killer pass every time.
I do agree though the forward players should run the channels more...but that's just looking for excuses for the midfielders
I think that if Matic was used as an out and out defensive midfielder and just shield the centre backs whilst letting Pogba plus whichever one of Fred, Pereira or Herrera that’s also playing play further forward then there wouldn’t be a problem.
It is a mix of different things. We are shite all over the pitch in terms of cohesive and attacking football. Matic is a problem, but not the main one. but he represents Jose perfectly and the way he wants to play. They are both past their best too. Matic would profit from a different manager too. It starts with our CBs, fullbacks, to our midfielders and attackers, hard to single anyone out. We can single Jose out for lack of any sort of modern football.
If we replace Matic with Pereira or Fred, it would get slightly better in terms of faster passing, but we wont suddenly be playing modern, free flowing attacking football. Our fullbacks and attackers are still not good enough in terms of movement and cohesion, just like our CBs wont turn into ball playing defenders. We would be more risky and look better without creating more in the final third due to our attackers, but also lose more balls, which would lead to more pressure on our team defensively.
If we replace Matic with Pereira or Fred, it would get slightly better in terms of faster passing, but we wont suddenly be playing modern, free flowing attacking football. Our fullbacks and attackers are still not good enough in terms of movement and cohesion, just like our CBs wont turn into ball playing defenders. We would be more risky and look better without creating more in the final third due to our attackers, but also lose more balls, which would lead to more pressure on our team defensively.
This represents my view as well. He should not be asked or expected to contribute much forward. Mainly because he is sort of useless in attack and one of the least creative players we have.
I would argue that just this is the major problem with our attacking play, both in possession and on the counter. Especially the latter, its essential for the #9 to be able hold up the ball for one or two seconds when we sit as deep as we do, to give the other players a chance to transition.
It also fecks with us defensively. A lot of the trouble we have been put in this year (or after-Zlatan tbf) is when we have been countered on the counter. Trying to transit and then have Lukaku lose the ball or misplace it when our team is moving forward. This cant happen repeatedly in the modern game.
I must say that I am really surprised that Mourinho has kept such faith in Lukaku as he have. Its always been such a key for him to have a beast hold-up player at #9; Zlatan, Costa, not to mention Drogba. Benzema is actually excellent at it as well.
As it stands now I am surprised that Mourinho doesnt try Fellaini from the start up top. From the start and not just like a plan B.
And I dont dislike Lukaku, I rate him as a player, but its not doing him any favors playing with his back against the opponents goal when his obvious strength is the opposite. It would be scary to see Lukaku at #9 for a Klopp team. Even if he might have problems with his stamina in such a team.
Another thing that is quite annoying about him is how lazy his passes are, rarely ever puts any zip on a pass. I wouldn’t even say it’s like an average paced pass, everything is just slow about him.
Matic is a relic, not sure why Jose paid £40m for him. The only other top 6 team that uses a limited player like this is Tottenham, with Dier. The difference is that he had a partner next to him in Dembele to cover for his shortcomings. He always provided him with an option when he had the ball, not to mention his ball carrying ability. It’s no coincidence that Mousa’s decline has show Dier up, he also looks extremely poor playing for England. I thought Fred could be this type of foil for Matic but Jose doesn’t seem to fancy him for some reason.
We really should move away from a player like this. All of our rivals utilise a mobile ball winner (Fernandinho, Henderson, Torreira) or a DLP like Jorginho as many European sides do.
We really should move away from a player like this. All of our rivals utilise a mobile ball winner (Fernandinho, Henderson, Torreira) or a DLP like Jorginho as many European sides do.
Compare city with a midfield 3 of silva,fernandinio,de Bruyne and Gundogan,B.silva to what Mourinho is starting with in Matic, Fellani and Pogba and we wonder why we can not play decent football. The answer is easy and clear to see and imagine if Pogba would have 2 of the city midfielders with him. Mourinho is playing a dinosaur type football that is going nowwhere.
Play Herrera and Pogba and Sanchez,Mata,Martial infront of them with Rashford as striker.
Put Gomes, Chong and Greenwood on the bench and give them gametime. They would not be worse than many of those so called first team players and in fact I think they would do great and bring pace and quality to the team.
Play Herrera and Pogba and Sanchez,Mata,Martial infront of them with Rashford as striker.
Put Gomes, Chong and Greenwood on the bench and give them gametime. They would not be worse than many of those so called first team players and in fact I think they would do great and bring pace and quality to the team.
Watching him is like watching a malfunctioning walking robot and sometimes its funny. He gets the ball, turns towards goal to attack, starts dribbling, then remembers what he's programmed to do, and immediately passes back or sideways. Its kinda weird.
Yep, pretty much he is culpable for his absolutely poor showing all around, in building and breaking opposition attacks he us terrible at both and is the Main reason for united's Poor showing . I feel He is the one letting the team and Mourinho down and the central defense is too exposed as a result because we are unable to hold and break the play in the middle and keep some control.
And what's annoying that he is one of Mourinho's darlings who never gets slated by the manager though even at Chelsea his massive underperformance led to that Chelsea season as well, and somehow focus never turns to how bad he has been as mourinho never turns his focus towards how atrocious he has been even at Chelsea 3rd season and now this season.
And what's annoying that he is one of Mourinho's darlings who never gets slated by the manager though even at Chelsea his massive underperformance led to that Chelsea season as well, and somehow focus never turns to how bad he has been as mourinho never turns his focus towards how atrocious he has been even at Chelsea 3rd season and now this season.
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He is the prime reason for United stuggles.
He was the reason we conceded very few goals last season (with cameo performances from ddg). Hence the reason we finished 2nd.
This season he is not even half the player he was last season and as a result you see our defence exposed to the fullest.
Matic isn’t our ‘attacking’ problem. He is the foundation to what we launch attacks confidently from and unfortunately that foundation is very fragile and it is putting us on the back foot and not the opponents.
Mourinho wanted to buy a top class CB so he didn’t have to rely on Matic too much in defence, so that’s a double negative there.
In regards to our actual attack - we lost our rythym and cohesion in attack when we signed Sanchez last January. We had 6 games in the first half of the season where we scored 4 goals or more and you could see clear patterns of lethal attacking play with martial down our left. It’s no concidence we lost all that since he got shafted down to the bench.
So sort out our defence/holding midfielder and then worry about attack. Meanwhile, let martial play on the wing. He just elevates us to a whole new level. We don’t have a player that far forward that can actually dribble effectively and put the whole back line on the back foot allowing players like rashford, mata, Lingard, Pogba, Fred and even Lukaku to punish them as a result.
The cycle since January has been: Sanchez gets ball, we move forward in anticipation of an attack building, Sanchez loses the ball horrendously, ball gets played quickly to our back line/midfield, Matic no longer has the athleticism to deal with it, they’re now 1 on 1 with one of our back 4 - they’re shit - and they create a chance. We as a result become less ambitious in attack because they see we don’t have a rock solid defence and we lose confidence in attack and fear losing the ball hence losing creativity. Sanchez thinks this is his cue to try more audacious playground dribbling - situation gets worse. We as a result play our best football when we are behind because we no longer have the fear of losing (nothing to lose), hence we don’t fear losing the ball and it becomes a feed forward cycle where opponents now step back because they see our confidence. See the pattern? Does that look familiar? Seems to have taken Mourinho a while to notice it too. Glad he finally has and has dropped Sanchez.
This season he is not even half the player he was last season and as a result you see our defence exposed to the fullest.
Matic isn’t our ‘attacking’ problem. He is the foundation to what we launch attacks confidently from and unfortunately that foundation is very fragile and it is putting us on the back foot and not the opponents.
Mourinho wanted to buy a top class CB so he didn’t have to rely on Matic too much in defence, so that’s a double negative there.
In regards to our actual attack - we lost our rythym and cohesion in attack when we signed Sanchez last January. We had 6 games in the first half of the season where we scored 4 goals or more and you could see clear patterns of lethal attacking play with martial down our left. It’s no concidence we lost all that since he got shafted down to the bench.
So sort out our defence/holding midfielder and then worry about attack. Meanwhile, let martial play on the wing. He just elevates us to a whole new level. We don’t have a player that far forward that can actually dribble effectively and put the whole back line on the back foot allowing players like rashford, mata, Lingard, Pogba, Fred and even Lukaku to punish them as a result.
The cycle since January has been: Sanchez gets ball, we move forward in anticipation of an attack building, Sanchez loses the ball horrendously, ball gets played quickly to our back line/midfield, Matic no longer has the athleticism to deal with it, they’re now 1 on 1 with one of our back 4 - they’re shit - and they create a chance. We as a result become less ambitious in attack because they see we don’t have a rock solid defence and we lose confidence in attack and fear losing the ball hence losing creativity. Sanchez thinks this is his cue to try more audacious playground dribbling - situation gets worse. We as a result play our best football when we are behind because we no longer have the fear of losing (nothing to lose), hence we don’t fear losing the ball and it becomes a feed forward cycle where opponents now step back because they see our confidence. See the pattern? Does that look familiar? Seems to have taken Mourinho a while to notice it too. Glad he finally has and has dropped Sanchez.
Fantastic post!
Yes, he doesn't move the ball quickly enough. Mou is spot on when he talks about being terrible in the transition phase. No quick chances created and caught with their pants down disorganized when losing the ball.
No!
A defensive midfielder has 3 things to worry about
1. Break up play ahead od defense - he does this ok
2. Be the link up play from defense to midfield - he does this exceptionally well. Always there with a good angle to receive the ball AND knowing what to do if he gets the ball. He reads the game so well. Better than anyone in our squad
3. Be there for midfield - Again he is one of the best to be a relief in midfield to get the ball, buy also to pass to a player and not put him in a bind. This is very important for a midfielder. Do you pass the ball such than you don't leave your teammates hang dry. Carrick was excellent at this, Matic is almost as good as Carrick
If you have never coached you will never be able to understand what midfield is about.
To answer your question, our biggest problem is not having a no 10. A true attacking midfielder.
A defensive midfielder has 3 things to worry about
1. Break up play ahead od defense - he does this ok
2. Be the link up play from defense to midfield - he does this exceptionally well. Always there with a good angle to receive the ball AND knowing what to do if he gets the ball. He reads the game so well. Better than anyone in our squad
3. Be there for midfield - Again he is one of the best to be a relief in midfield to get the ball, buy also to pass to a player and not put him in a bind. This is very important for a midfielder. Do you pass the ball such than you don't leave your teammates hang dry. Carrick was excellent at this, Matic is almost as good as Carrick
If you have never coached you will never be able to understand what midfield is about.
To answer your question, our biggest problem is not having a no 10. A true attacking midfielder.
I think he's clearly back too early from the injury but it makes sense as he is one of our senior guys and important part of the team. I wonder if a rest during this little international break in the lead up run of tough fixtures will benefit him.
The main common denominator in midfield at the moment though is what type of performance you're going to get with Pogba in there within the structure of midfield. Pogba's lack of positional awareness creates a bit of a mess to deal with as well Matic having to be a dynamic player moving out of his comfortable anchor role into a multi-faceted role. In general as a team I think it is notably obvious that we've moved away from playing Matic or Fellaini as a pure anchor and giving him more freedom and we're trying to get him further up field in a multi faceted role. I don't think he has the positional dynamism and awareness to play in front of that anchor position, nor do I think he's comfortable there doing it while Pogba is in the team and it showed in that second half of the Newcastle game when Pogba was playing both behind and in front of him. This integrated way better in terms of our transitional play which leads me to wonder why Pogba isn't doing this more. That is probably the hardest I've seen Pogba work to fit this team in his entire time of being at the club which says a lot about fitting him into the structure of the way the team plays.
I feel like Matic is more just trying to perform a role to the best of his ability which showed in his West Ham performance. The West Ham midfield was running in and off him and turning him which lead to a lot of him just jogging back not even trying to recover position because he had no hope of getting back. It was noticeably different in the Newcastle game where Pogba was playing both in front and behind him and being the dynamic outlet as well as the player to mop up around him.
There definitely needs to be another dynamic player in between the three at the front and our midfield composition, whether that player is Pogba, or in addition to Pogba is another story. I'd say down the stretch of the season that Fred will be that player, but Fellaini doesn't work in this role with Matic. It has to be either one or the other. (Fellaini's passing and transitional work in my opinion is way better than this version of the out of form Matic).
We've got a melting pot of midfielders but it is more like water and 5 different types of boiled vegetables than a delicious and well constructed flavorsome soup.
The main common denominator in midfield at the moment though is what type of performance you're going to get with Pogba in there within the structure of midfield. Pogba's lack of positional awareness creates a bit of a mess to deal with as well Matic having to be a dynamic player moving out of his comfortable anchor role into a multi-faceted role. In general as a team I think it is notably obvious that we've moved away from playing Matic or Fellaini as a pure anchor and giving him more freedom and we're trying to get him further up field in a multi faceted role. I don't think he has the positional dynamism and awareness to play in front of that anchor position, nor do I think he's comfortable there doing it while Pogba is in the team and it showed in that second half of the Newcastle game when Pogba was playing both behind and in front of him. This integrated way better in terms of our transitional play which leads me to wonder why Pogba isn't doing this more. That is probably the hardest I've seen Pogba work to fit this team in his entire time of being at the club which says a lot about fitting him into the structure of the way the team plays.
I feel like Matic is more just trying to perform a role to the best of his ability which showed in his West Ham performance. The West Ham midfield was running in and off him and turning him which lead to a lot of him just jogging back not even trying to recover position because he had no hope of getting back. It was noticeably different in the Newcastle game where Pogba was playing both in front and behind him and being the dynamic outlet as well as the player to mop up around him.
There definitely needs to be another dynamic player in between the three at the front and our midfield composition, whether that player is Pogba, or in addition to Pogba is another story. I'd say down the stretch of the season that Fred will be that player, but Fellaini doesn't work in this role with Matic. It has to be either one or the other. (Fellaini's passing and transitional work in my opinion is way better than this version of the out of form Matic).
We've got a melting pot of midfielders but it is more like water and 5 different types of boiled vegetables than a delicious and well constructed flavorsome soup.
I am not sure why anyone expected him to be any different. He never had the mobility to do for us what Casemiro or Fernandinho do for their teams or the skill and vision to do what Jorginho or Busquets can do. His best is at a team that plays with a low block and offers plenty of protection to its defenders and defensive midfielders without asking them to contribute too much offensively. He has never been equipped to be a contributor for a team that wants to play on the front foot so in a way it's not on him as we knew or at least should have known what we were getting. The problem is that Mourinho is stuck between what he knows best which is to build a team of warriors where 2 or 3 players can make the different up front, an approach where Matic would be hard to improve on and a team that he feels he should produce where the likes of Matic, Lukaku and a few others simply do not the possesss the required skillset. It's a dilemma he faced at Real but back then, he was never given free reign to buy whoever he wanted like with us in the first two years at least.
It takes him c. 6-10 seconds to complete a simple sideways pass.
Our problem is more a case of coaching, but when it comes to the players, then Matic is comfortably the biggest problem.
Our problem is more a case of coaching, but when it comes to the players, then Matic is comfortably the biggest problem.
he's a big unit and a competent footballer but not entirely sure what he adds - was supposed to be there for protection but I haven't seen a lot of that lately
he's taking a spot a playmaker should be in really who could actually contribute to our game
he's taking a spot a playmaker should be in really who could actually contribute to our game