Is Neymar's star fading?

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,981
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
He should have at least carry Brazil to a World Cup final if he was truly a level above, I mean Messi even had that one final appearance, Hazard the player he is a level above has also.
It's so ridiculous to judge individuals on team accomplishments. There are so many factors a single player has absolutely zero influence in, it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense logically. I find it incredibly annoying that this school of thought is so present among the fanbase.

If you watch Neymar play and can't see how good he is, I honestly can't help you.
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
You can have a great game without goals or assists, Zidane had many....
Sure. That wasn't the case with Hazard against Brazil. A game in which he was at most Belgium's 6th best player after De Bruyne, Lukaku, Witsel, Fellaini and Courtois. Hazard was good against brazil, very useful in breaking brazil's pressure by getting fouls. But we're still talking about a game brazil completely dominated, where belgium spent the near entirety of it parked around their box desperately hanging on for dear life.
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
It's so ridiculous to judge individuals on team accomplishments. There are so many factors a single player has absolutely zero influence in, it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense logically. I find it incredibly annoying that this school of thought is so present among the fanbase.

If you watch Neymar play and can't see how good he is, I honestly can't help you.
This, diving and theatrics aside, he's a fantastic player.
Sure. That wasn't the case with Hazard against Brazil. A game in which he was at most Belgium's 6th best player after De Bruyne, Lukaku, Witsel, Fellaini and Courtois. Hazard was good against brazil, very useful in breaking brazil's pressure by getting fouls. But we're still talking about a game brazil completely dominated, where belgium spent the near entirety of it parked around their box desperately hanging on for dear life.
Belgium played against Brazil like France did versus in the semi but you never heard the Brazilians complain and cry about it. Hazard's comments after the semi (along with Courtois, KDB, Lukaku) were so bitter, they all missed the irony of the situation
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
Belgium played against Brazil like France did versus in the semi but you never heard the Brazilians complain and cry about it. Hazard's comments after the semi (along with Courtois, KDB, Lukaku) were so bitter, they all missed the irony of the situation
Never understood that. I mean i get it's a once in a lifetime opportunity so it's difficult to be objective about it, but France controlled belgium throughout, a very comfortable win for them. If anything, they should have won by more than 1 goal

Belgium-Brazil was the definition of a lucky win
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
Never understood that. I mean i get it's a once in a lifetime opportunity so it's difficult to be objective about it, but France controlled belgium throughout, a very comfortable win for them. If anything, they should have won by more than 1 goal

Belgium-Brazil was the definition of a lucky win
Thank you. This proves me you did actually watch both games. Brazil should/could have won, Belgium had no chances. What irked me is all the crying and moaning afterwards. Sore sore losers
 

A-man

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
6,314
It's so ridiculous to judge individuals on team accomplishments. There are so many factors a single player has absolutely zero influence in, it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense logically. I find it incredibly annoying that this school of thought is so present among the fanbase.
.
Yes and no. I mean if a player doesn't help his team I don't see how a player can be amazing. Neymar is absolutely one of the best players in PSG, but has he helped his team to reach an extra level? I personally don't think so.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,353
Location
France
Yes and no. I mean if a player doesn't help his team I don't see how a player can be amazing. Neymar is absolutely one of the best players in PSG, but has he helped his team to reach an extra level? I personally don't think so.
Neymar definitely help his team reach an extra level, in fact you could even argue that he is the extra level for his teams. Neymar is by himself a new level but it's also one of the star attackers that actually likes to play for his attacking teammates, he likes to combine, assist and in general create things.
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
2,346
It's so ridiculous to judge individuals on team accomplishments. There are so many factors a single player has absolutely zero influence in, it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense logically. I find it incredibly annoying that this school of thought is so present among the fanbase.

If you watch Neymar play and can't see how good he is, I honestly can't help you.
I agree with you but both play for good teams in Belgium and Brazil, in these hints balance, manager, and chemistry goes a long way, Ney,sr has benefitted by playing for peak Barcelona and a PSG that blows every other team in the league away, as much as Hazard benefitted playing in a well balanced Belgium outfit with a superior manager to one Neymar has had to contend with.

I think Neymar is 3rd best in the world at least in regards to talent, but I don't think his stats would look as great if he had spent 5-6 years at Chelsea playing under multiple defensive managers, that the point, he isn't a level above Hazard Salah or Mbappe either, only Messi is, and he isn't Messi.
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
2,346
Sure. That wasn't the case with Hazard against Brazil. A game in which he was at most Belgium's 6th best player after De Bruyne, Lukaku, Witsel, Fellaini and Courtois. Hazard was good against brazil, very useful in breaking brazil's pressure by getting fouls. But we're still talking about a game brazil completely dominated, where belgium spent the near entirety of it parked around their box desperately hanging on for dear life.
He was the best player in the tournament regardless of your interpretation of his game, I think he was the best player against Brazil also, but what is clear is that all those names you mentioned overall never had a tournamen to his level.
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
I think he was the best player against Brazil also, but what is clear is that all those names you mentioned overall never had a tournamen to his level.
That's ridiculous. Sorry but it is.

Second part is true, neymar hasn't had a tournament with brazil on the level of Hazard's world cup

He has been the far superior player at club level where he hit levels hazard has barely come close to, and higher than hazard's WC levels
 

A-man

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
6,314
Neymar definitely help his team reach an extra level, in fact you could even argue that he is the extra level for his teams. Neymar is by himself a new level but it's also one of the star attackers that actually likes to play for his attacking teammates, he likes to combine, assist and in general create things.
In my opinion he has not raised the level. The team has not won more trophies because of him, despite the fact that PSG has quality enough to have won CL every year since he got there. He is a very good player, exceptional at some things, I dont disagree with that.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,353
Location
France
In my opinion he has not raised the level. The team has not won more trophies because of him, despite the fact that PSG has quality enough to have won CL every year since he got there. He is a very good player, exceptional at some things, I dont disagree with that.
That's a weird opinion since Neymar has been injured in the knockout out stages.
 

A-man

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
6,314
That's a weird opinion since Neymar has been injured in the knockout out stages.
No matter the circumstances, he has not been having any impact whatsoever on PSG performance. Yes he has been injured, staying fit and health is a critical part of having an impact for your team. But if he hasn't even been around, we can not really say he had been raising g his team a level. PSG would be exactly where they are today without him.

edit: when I talk about the world's best players and their impact for their teams, I talk about performances like Neymar in Barca against PSG. That was impact. Messi and Ronaldo for example have shown this impact time and time again. From Neymar, I have seen too little of it. I don't say that he does not have the capacity, but he has not shown it. Maybe he has got it, maybe not.
 
Last edited:

kaiser1

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
1,949
Supports
Bayern Munich
He was the best player in the tournament regardless of your interpretation of his game, I think he was the best player against Brazil also, but what is clear is that all those names you mentioned overall never had a tournamen to his level.
You standard for the best player(an attacker) who didn't have a shot on target in crucial knockout games is curiously low

No matter the circumstances, he has not been having any impact whatsoever on PSG performance. Yes he has been injured, staying fit and health is a critical part of having an impact for your team. But if he hasn't even been around, we can not really say he had been raising g his team a level. PSG would be exactly where they are today without him.

edit: when I talk about the world's best players and their impact for their teams, I talk about performances like Neymar in Barca against PSG. That was impact. Messi and Ronaldo for example have shown this impact time and time again. From Neymar, I have seen too little of it. I don't say that he does not have the capacity, but he has not shown it. Maybe he has got it, maybe not.
How can a player make a difference when he is injured? A player cannot be held responsible for performances when he is not available
The type of performance Neymar gave vs PSG, Hazard has never given in his entire career. If you have seen such from Hazard at such high profile CL level game let me know
Neymar is one of the all time top scorer for Brazil, One time top scorer in the CL,
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,297
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Sure. That wasn't the case with Hazard against Brazil. A game in which he was at most Belgium's 6th best player after De Bruyne, Lukaku, Witsel, Fellaini and Courtois. Hazard was good against brazil, very useful in breaking brazil's pressure by getting fouls. But we're still talking about a game brazil completely dominated, where belgium spent the near entirety of it parked around their box desperately hanging on for dear life.
Hazard's use of the ball was so good he broke the post-1962 World Cup record with 10/10 successful dribbles - in a quarter final against the pre-tournament favourites no less. "6th best player" is just nonsense revisionism.
Jonathon Wilson said:
If Belgium v Brazil were a head-to-head audition for Eden Hazard against Neymar – there was only one winner.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/07/eden-hazard-belgium-brazil-world-cup
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
Hazard's use of the ball was so good he broke the post-1962 World Cup record with 10/10 successful dribbles - in a quarter final against the pre-tournament favourites no less. "6th best player" is just nonsense revisionism.
He had zero impact on belgium's goals. In a game in which brazil had more shots on target than belgium had shots. In which Hazard's big contribution to his team was keeping the ball and getting fouled a bunch of times. Yeah, he used the ball well after belgium went 2-0 up. By doing nothing with it but preventing brazil from getting it back quickly

Courtois and De Bruyne were Belgium's two best players in that game. That's not even arguable really, not with anyone who saw the game. After that, well, given the game was Brazil attacking and Belgium desperately hanging on, i'm gonna put the guys who kept their defence together(witsel and fellaini) above him, and Lukaku because he had a similar game to Hazard, if not quite as good at it, but was directly involved in the gwg. But this is personal preference/opinion, sure, if you think hazard was belgium's third best player in the game i've nothing to say to that, it's a valid opinion
 

paraguayo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
1,339
Supports
neutral
Why are people wasting time on one specific game, like it decides anything? Just look at their statistics for clubs. No contest really..
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
33,741
How the best for Brazil is the greatest player of all time who won 3 world cups.
About 40 caps away from Cafu's all time appearances, about 17 goals away from Pele's all time top scorer. Add a WC (that super easy feat, I know) to taking those records, and he has a very strong claim.
 

Schneckerl

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2016
Messages
2,704
Admittedly Hazard did have an impressive game when put into neymar's shoes the following game against France -though not better than Neymar's against Belgium. And that's the entire story: what constitutes a poor game by neymar's standards is in turn a brilliant game for Hazard. That says it all
Which team ended up winning the game just heavily influences public perceptions on how an individual player performed. Brazil went in as a favorite too.
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
Which team ended up winning the game just heavily influences public perceptions on how an individual player performed. Brazil went in as a favorite too.
Absolutely. Had Brazil found the equalizer and gone on to win, hazard's performance would've been shredded for his total lack of attacking impact. But they won, so him doing a great job of defending with the ball and looking threatening(without actually being threatening except for the one time he had belgium's lone chance of the second half and missed it) gets praised as incredible
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
About 40 caps away from Cafu's all time appearances, about 17 goals away from Pele's all time top scorer. Add a WC (that super easy feat, I know) to taking those records, and he has a very strong claim.
No, no he doesn't, and he never will
 

A-man

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
6,314
How can a player make a difference when he is injured? A player cannot be held responsible for performances when he is not available
The type of performance Neymar gave vs PSG, Hazard has never given in his entire career. If you have seen such from Hazard at such high profile CL level game let me know
Neymar is one of the all time top scorer for Brazil, One time top scorer in the CL,
You are right, how can a player make a difference when he is injured? He cannot.

How can a player who doesn't make a difference be considered one of the greatest? He cannot.

That was my point. He hasn't made a difference.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
33,741
No, no he doesn't, and he never will
If he hits those, he absolutely does.

History will see him just as brightly as it seems to see those who are supposedly eons ahead of him. Rightly so.
 

Sayros

Full Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
6,006
Supports
Paris Saint-Germain
About 40 caps away from Cafu's all time appearances, about 17 goals away from Pele's all time top scorer. Add a WC (that super easy feat, I know) to taking those records, and he has a very strong claim.
R9 has a much stronger claim than he does, and even then he isn't close to getting to Pele. Neymar is still young and has time on his side and I can comfortably say already he has about 0 chance to be Brazil's GOAT.
 

Bennz McCarthey17

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
150
Location
Somewhere in South Africa
Supports
Africa
Neymar is slowly becoming the new R9 with all the injury excuses that are made up for him, the what if's , the could haves. FACT is he hasn't done anything to even mention him alongside Pele, hasn't even reached Ronaldinho's Level for god sake. And it's funny his greatest match was against PSG, who are arguably the greatest bottlers in CL history..
 

SupaFella

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
117
Location
Ypres Belgium
Supports
Manchester City
Thank you. This proves me you did actually watch both games. Brazil should/could have won, Belgium had no chances. What irked me is all the crying and moaning afterwards. Sore sore losers
I'm not going to answer for youre perception of Belgian fans, i disagree that Brazil was better than Belgium in that semi final. The crucial man in the clash of philosophy that is Belgian and Brazilian football is the position of the keeper. Belgium has had decades of poverty in the attack but we did produce a few world class goalie's and its part of our football tradition to make the best of that. Brazil diametricly opposed to this is a country with a wealth of attacking talent but less of a focus on the back less to speak of the goalie. It's not as bad as it used to be in the past where Brazilian keepers were regarded as nothing more than chicken catchers but it does reveal a stark contrast in style's that realisticly should result in the following perception: Because Brazil traditionally has a great attack one should consider it likely that they produce a above average amount of chances on the goal. Because Belgium traditionally has worldy goalie's, one should consider it likely that the keeper makes an amount of saves that ranges from above average to perhaps exceptional. One can perfectly balance out the other even if the conspicious result is more apparent chances for Brazil. I don't deny that Brazil had plenty of chances for a large part of the match though, just that it isn' as meaningfull as a statistic as it usually would be due to the presence of an in form Courtois.

Our attack however though traditionally bad actually is enjoying as many know somethign of a golden genneration. This produces players that can be considered "more clinical than average". That is should be considered for players like KDB and Hazard but afcourse also for Neymar when in form. KDB made a beauty of a goal, and who here would dare to argue that a player like KDB would not on his own be able to score such a goal against the Brazilian defense and goalie when in form? Looked like City-Sevilla all over to me as for the "type of goal".

The 1st goal though on the corner, yeah there seemed more luck involved with it. Granted Belgium was perhaps nominally also stronger in the air and likely a bit more dangerous in those situations.

So i disagree because the statistics kinda takes some exceptionality's of players out of account.

As for France, i think they outplayed us and in part due to having a stronger team in depth. The style wasn't nessecarily pretty, but it's their right to play like that. I do like it that Belgium played a attractive game during the WC. As to brazilians being butthurt after Belgium-Brazil, oh there were plenty which was extremely entertaining aswell. Btw, Belgium had some "union to peel" with brazil for the perception of having been robbed in a past WC match, so Belgian fans did admittingly had some sentiment of sweet revenge. But really after their failure in the WC before it how do you think Brazilians reacted? :D Guess they think it's a bit easier to argue that they were robbed in 2018 than 2014. Stop trying to rewrite history Brazil, you lost fair and square.

My 5 cents. ;)

Neymar coming into this WC was like Rooney getting into the 2006 WC. A broken ankle and a lack of match sharpness caused havoc. Hazard still was Brazil's best player and biggest threat imo.
As for the standing up to be counted, he's done it for Barca in the most crucial of times and even in his injury riddled CL campaigns at PSG, he's got goals vs Bayern, away at Celtic, Liverpool and I think Napoli. He's had rotten luck in terms of his fitness.
I do not doubt his talent and skill, and tbh i'm not surprised that my impression of the WC doesn't nessecarily reflect his peformances for various clubs. ;)
 
Last edited:

JJ12

Predicted Portugal, Italy to win Euro 2016, 2020
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
10,838
Location
Wales
He's the biggest bellend out of all the stars.
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
I'm not going to answer for youre perception of Belgian fans, i disagree that Brazil was better than Belgium in that semi final. The crucial man in the clash of philosophy that is Belgian and Brazilian football is the position of the keeper. Belgium has had decades of poverty in the attack but we did produce a few world class goalie's and its part of our football tradition to make the best of that. Brazil diametricly opposed to this is a country with a wealth of attacking talent but less of a focus on the back less to speak of the goalie. It's not as bad as it used to be in the past where Brazilian keepers were regarded as nothing more than chicken catchers but it does reveal a stark contrast in style's that realisticly should result in the following perception: Because Brazil traditionally has a great attack one should consider it likely that they produce a above average amount of chances on the goal. Because Belgium traditionally has worldy goalie's, one should consider it likely that the keeper makes an amount of saves that ranges from above average to perhaps exceptional. One can perfectly balance out the other even if the conspicious result is more apparent chances for Brazil. I don't deny that Brazil had plenty of chances for a large part of the match though, just that it isn' as meaningfull as a statistic as it usually would be due to the presence of an in form Courtois.

Our attack however though traditionally bad actually is enjoying as many know somethign of a golden genneration. This produces players that can be considered "more clinical than average". That is should be considered for players like KDB and Hazard but afcourse also for Neymar when in form. KDB made a beauty of a goal, and who here would dare to argue that a player like KDB would not on his own be able to score such a goal against the Brazilian defense and goalie when in form? Looked like City-Sevilla all over to me as for the "type of goal".

The 1st goal though on the corner, yeah there seemed more luck involved with it. Granted Belgium was perhaps nominally also stronger in the air and likely a bit more dangerous in those situations.

So i disagree because the statistics kinda takes some exceptionality's of players out of account.

As for France, i think they outplayed us and in part due to having a stronger team in depth. The style wasn't nessecarily pretty, but it's their right to play like that. I do like it that Belgium played a attractive game during the WC. As to brazilians being butthurt after Belgium-Brazil, oh there were plenty which was extremely entertaining aswell. Btw, Belgium had some "union to peel" with brazil for the perception of having been robbed in a past WC match, so Belgian fans did admittingly had some sentiment of sweet revenge. But really after their failure in the WC before it how do you think Brazilians reacted? :D Guess they think it's a bit easier to argue that they were robbed in 2018 than 2014. Stop trying to rewrite history Brazil, you lost fair and square.

My 5 cents. ;)



I do not doubt his talent and skill, and tbh i'm not surprised that my impression of the WC doesn't nessecarily reflect his peformances for various clubs. ;)
I was talkint about Belgim being sore losers when they lost in the semis vs France
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
26,143
Supports
Real Madrid
If he hits those, he absolutely does.

History will see him just as brightly as it seems to see those who are supposedly eons ahead of him. Rightly so.
Unless he wins the WC with a performance for the ages, the kind Pelé did twice, he simply has no chance. And even if he does, again, Pelé did it twice
 

Sayros

Full Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
6,006
Supports
Paris Saint-Germain
I was talkint about Belgim being sore losers when they lost in the semis vs France
Well, I mean, they have a right to be. They did dominate possession most of the game, and if it wasn't for an Umtiti header, and the ten more key passes, and France having more shots on target, they would be in the final. :devil:
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,297
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
If he hits those, he absolutely does.

History will see him just as brightly as it seems to see those who are supposedly eons ahead of him. Rightly so.
Nobody will care about all the goals he racked up in friendlies and qualifiers when he ends his career with many fewer trophies for the Selecao than the other greats. He’ll do well to end up in the top 10 Brazilians of all time never mind get to number one.
 

kaiser1

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
1,949
Supports
Bayern Munich
Another game-winning goal from Neymar today
 

Oly Francis

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2018
Messages
3,942
Supports
PSG
Best player in the world atm.
He's actually still pretty out of shape but damn he's so talented and really cut down the ridiculous behaviour either out or on the pitch (at least for the moment).

Mbappé came back tonight to deliver the assist (he should have given him another one but he wanted to score himself for his 1st game after 5 weeks), Icardi is supposed to return next week, it'll be pretty interesting to see how all of them work together.