We are guilty of majorly overrating our own players as an organisation.
Is Ole’s football really any better than José & LVG’s?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Atleast with Mourinho before I started the match I wasn't expecting to lose. Yeah, most of the time was boring af but atleast we won titles. Put Bruno in that team with Mourinho and we would be serious title contenders imo.
I like Ole, but he is the kinda of manager that will most likely get a result based on individual brilliance from a player like Bruno, Pogba or Rashford than by a tactical masterclass. I see no identity, the football played is boring most of the time and I can't see us challenge any titles.
I hope he does well but he isn't the best manager since Ferguson retired, he is just the most likeable.
I like Ole, but he is the kinda of manager that will most likely get a result based on individual brilliance from a player like Bruno, Pogba or Rashford than by a tactical masterclass. I see no identity, the football played is boring most of the time and I can't see us challenge any titles.
I hope he does well but he isn't the best manager since Ferguson retired, he is just the most likeable.
I havent been this bored watching us play since the LVG years. So I have to say no, its not any better. It was for his first run of games. It felt like he was just attacking, and some of media said that he was a one trick pony because of it. That seemed to coincide with us trying new things, which led to a run of 7 wins in 27 games. I thought Ole was a poor choice to replace Jose. Take out the club legend part, and you have us going after a manager that got relegated with Cardiff and then sacked the next season because he couldnt get a win in the championship. And was managing a team in a league that is so poor that the new post brexit rules for bringing in foreign players and managers would have excluded him from getting the job.
We have a failed Championship manager running us right now. And no one seems to care because, its a club legend and the excuses come thick and fast. I see people saying "amazing attacking football" and I have to wonder if Im really watching Manchester Uniteds evil twin, Hector United. Because theres no way that what we have been playing is "amazing attacking football". We have had out moments, but the results have flattered us severely.
We have a failed Championship manager running us right now. And no one seems to care because, its a club legend and the excuses come thick and fast. I see people saying "amazing attacking football" and I have to wonder if Im really watching Manchester Uniteds evil twin, Hector United. Because theres no way that what we have been playing is "amazing attacking football". We have had out moments, but the results have flattered us severely.
Yep let’s get LVG or Jose back. That will fix things.
It is occasionally. It often isn’t though and I really struggle to enjoy watching United play a lot of the time. The two defensive midfielders every game are a big issue. We’ve one central midfielder that can pass the ball.
City are smashing the league without a true CF. I feel like we could/ should be getting a lot more out of what we have. He sold Lukaku, who had a good record in PL. He's got Rashford, Cavani, Greenwood and Martial. All capable of playing CF and have played there. Nobody can convince me that there aren't managers out there that could get more out of what we have. Especially with Bruno, Pogba and VDB in the squad playing behind them.
The football is better, but same issues of consistency and consistency at a high quality level is still missing.
Its all patches under Ole, when its good its great when its not its as shitty as it was at the worst time with Mourinho. We depend on players form, the system is either weak or unexistent so if our key players (Bruno, Pogba, Rashford) are not in top form then we'll see games like tonights.
At the end of the day I dont think Ole is anything else other than a motivator, thats not enough to compete against City.
At the end of the day I dont think Ole is anything else other than a motivator, thats not enough to compete against City.
I think LVG was the most boring one. My God all games under him in his last year were insomnia curing. Pretty much the only time I lost any interest in watching United matches. It was ridiculous watching us spending 90 minutes just passing sideways in our half and scoring one goal a game or so every single match day.
Mourinho and Ole are about on the same level. They both played some very fun games but some very shit ones. You never know what you'll get from us approaching a match with them. However it's worth nothing we're comparing Ole here to probably the worst version of Mourinho's career, so I don't think it speaks well on Ole ?
Mourinho and Ole are about on the same level. They both played some very fun games but some very shit ones. You never know what you'll get from us approaching a match with them. However it's worth nothing we're comparing Ole here to probably the worst version of Mourinho's career, so I don't think it speaks well on Ole ?
Yeah, Jose was park the bus and try not to concede, when you do concede throw Shaw/ pogba under the bus.
I don't even want to think about lvg. Lvg was like tonight, but every week.
I actually miss Van Gaal football, at least it helped with sleeping. Solskjaer ball on the other hand is just so infuriating to watch. Make a fecking sub dude! Take some risks!
Honestly this thread is just silly. We're in rubbish form, and we were dreadfully boring tonight, but we've shown far more ambition on a regular basis than under LvG or Mou, both of whom had us playing horrible stuff.
Put it this way, we've had a bunch of come from behind wins this season. Under the previous couple of managers, we'd have lost most of them.
Put it this way, we've had a bunch of come from behind wins this season. Under the previous couple of managers, we'd have lost most of them.
As bad as some of the displays have been under Ole, they've been nowhere near the tumescent standard of the football by numbers of LVG or whatever it was Jose was trying to do.
About the same on and off tumescent football ....the difference being LVG and Mourinho won trophies.
In a word. No.
Pep or Klopp would 1000% get a lot more out of this squad.
The football as a whole is definitely better now than with LVG or Jose but that's not much of an achievement.
The worrying thing is that there are a lot of bad signals coming from the current set up.
I can't see us getting to where we want to be under Ole sadly which is a pity cos he seems a great guy as well as a club legend.
The worrying thing is that there are a lot of bad signals coming from the current set up.
I can't see us getting to where we want to be under Ole sadly which is a pity cos he seems a great guy as well as a club legend.
Today was the worst performance under Ole, the most boring game under his reign. Lvg's was like this every fecking game. Jose's first season was decent and first half of second season was also decent but rest was just crap.
However, Ole's football is also regressing. 5th 0-0 this year (6 if you include the 0-0 against whu in the FA cup). Things have to improve or he is just following lvg and Jose without any trophies
However, Ole's football is also regressing. 5th 0-0 this year (6 if you include the 0-0 against whu in the FA cup). Things have to improve or he is just following lvg and Jose without any trophies
No way 10 times better.
I think Roy Hodgson and Big Sam would get more out of this squad too. Swap managers around in today's game who would win?
I think it comes down to why are our attackers all playing so poorly this season?
Is it just coincidence? A bit of bad luck that our main three were poor, Cavani has been in and out of the team for a few different things, and we don't really have any other proper options? Given time for them to either get into form or for Ole to replace them with new signings, will we be be playing good football again?
Or are they playing so badly because of man-management (directly Ole's fault) or coaching (indirectly Ole's fault since he doesn't coach them himself but he did choose the people who do)? Do we have poor tactics or are the players not being drilled properly about what movements and decisions to make?
Personally I think it's a bit of both. As such I think it's a bit unlucky that our attackers are all out of form so it's unfair to completely blame Ole, but I also think that his style (or lack there-of really) is making it harder for those attackers to get into form as we seem to be set up to do everything on the individual level instead of really moving and building as a team. As such our football can be quite good when they are playing well (better than it was under LVG or Jose), but their bottom level is similar. I think it's important to note we had the exact same reliance on individual attacking quality under Jose, and even LVG to some extent although we did tend to have a more structured set-up in defence and midfield under him.
Is it just coincidence? A bit of bad luck that our main three were poor, Cavani has been in and out of the team for a few different things, and we don't really have any other proper options? Given time for them to either get into form or for Ole to replace them with new signings, will we be be playing good football again?
Or are they playing so badly because of man-management (directly Ole's fault) or coaching (indirectly Ole's fault since he doesn't coach them himself but he did choose the people who do)? Do we have poor tactics or are the players not being drilled properly about what movements and decisions to make?
Personally I think it's a bit of both. As such I think it's a bit unlucky that our attackers are all out of form so it's unfair to completely blame Ole, but I also think that his style (or lack there-of really) is making it harder for those attackers to get into form as we seem to be set up to do everything on the individual level instead of really moving and building as a team. As such our football can be quite good when they are playing well (better than it was under LVG or Jose), but their bottom level is similar. I think it's important to note we had the exact same reliance on individual attacking quality under Jose, and even LVG to some extent although we did tend to have a more structured set-up in defence and midfield under him.
It's better but not good enough
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There are a few managers who could get out with what United currently have, but the team is still not balanced and doesn't have enough technical quality and coaching to elevate them to that next level which is competing for the league well into April/May. The next level for Ole or whoever the United manager is the use of space when attacking and the shape of the team when attacking.
Rashford doesn't naturally create for others or play unlocking passes. He can whip in a few crosses from time to time, but that's not his A or B game. He does link up with Shaw to a degree, but he slips him down the line and into the box...kind of too predictable but obviously nice when it comes off for a Shaw chance. Cavani gets the goals, doesn't really look to set too many up. Greenwood is learning how to round out his game, but we all know he's a natural finisher who is having to adjust to not being the focal point of an attack or getting at the end of chances. He's also not hit the target recently with good chances like today and against Chelsea from similar positions. Martial is just completely out of form and not sure if he'll be salvagable until next year. He's been the biggest let down by far unfortunately.
It would be interesting if United played with 3 central midfielders who play as a unit, not just a midfield two and Bruno lingering near the attackers or roaming around wherever he wants.
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I actually think LVG perhaps lacked a DOF to make use of his signings. He had the right philosophy but the execution was where the team fell short, lots of possession but next to no penetration. I don't really know where to begin to describe the ethos under Solskjaer it's almost like a "do your best" approach and observe how the pendulum swings.
We are getting closer and closer to a point where Ole will have signed the players that we are lacking for specific positions and I feel personally the difference is not going to be that dramatic in peeformances. But the benefit as seen with Lampard is with the better resources there comes a higher expectation and this will ultimately make or break Solskjaer's tenure here.
Nothing much in it. LvG's styles was slower but I'd have preferred it with these set of players. Mourinho and Ole have a lot of similarities IMO.
Last few games have been boring, but other than that no, we are nowhere near lvg level boredom.
Yes, it is. Though that's more a reflection on the previous football we endured.
Although what I will say for LVG is that much though I found his football to be tedious, I did like that he generally sought to impose our style of play on the opposition and keep the ball more than them rather than sit back and try to hit them on the break. Most of the time it was awful to watch but sometimes (like Juanfield) it was fab.
Although what I will say for LVG is that much though I found his football to be tedious, I did like that he generally sought to impose our style of play on the opposition and keep the ball more than them rather than sit back and try to hit them on the break. Most of the time it was awful to watch but sometimes (like Juanfield) it was fab.
Entertainment-wise I'd say yes but it's all personal preference. I very much disliked United's football under LVG, style-wise the football under him was my least favourite of any United manager we've had in my lifetime. Struggling to even think of many non-United manager's whose football I've liked less, I hated it. So Ole easy beats LVG for me there and comes ahead of Mourinho too.
I don't think he's quite as structural as those two, and that he allows a bit more freedom or off-the-cuff things to happen when attacking. People often say we rely on a bit flash of brilliance or a bit of inspiration and I see that sort of thing too. You could frame that 2 ways, good for allowing that freedom or you could be critical and say when we do produce a nice bit of play that it's not because he himself coaching pretty patterns of play into us, it's just the players doing it by themselves, which is how it often looks to me.
Better as in being a better team? I don't think we're as good a team as we were at some points under Mourinho and while we're not that far away I don't necessarily have much belief we'll go definitively above and beyond that which is ultimately what we all want. Mourinho himself wasn't good enough of course.
I don't think he's quite as structural as those two, and that he allows a bit more freedom or off-the-cuff things to happen when attacking. People often say we rely on a bit flash of brilliance or a bit of inspiration and I see that sort of thing too. You could frame that 2 ways, good for allowing that freedom or you could be critical and say when we do produce a nice bit of play that it's not because he himself coaching pretty patterns of play into us, it's just the players doing it by themselves, which is how it often looks to me.
Better as in being a better team? I don't think we're as good a team as we were at some points under Mourinho and while we're not that far away I don't necessarily have much belief we'll go definitively above and beyond that which is ultimately what we all want. Mourinho himself wasn't good enough of course.
Clear progress or something
2nd place does not mean progression.
No. Our play under Ole, bar the restart at the end of last season, has bored me to tears. We're a hard watch at the best of times, but any excitement I may once have had for a top 6 tie has been truly put to bed under Ole.
I always assume now that we're going to setup like we're playing prime Barça at the Camp Nou, regardless of any form. As a Utd fan who used to see us regularly throw the kitchen sink at opponents, seeing us now become the blot on the rest of the top 6's fixture list, it's been interesting to witness the mental contortions people now go through.
People always remember the bad about LVG, but we were always proactive in big games under him, even Mourinho I don't remember us having as little ambition either. LVG & Mourinho did win trophies overall too.
Under Ole, with a better squad than both, it's been on/off (mostly off) turgidness. And no trophies, only bottling everything under the sun when it counts.
tl;dr: Yeah It's been a lovely time really.
I always assume now that we're going to setup like we're playing prime Barça at the Camp Nou, regardless of any form. As a Utd fan who used to see us regularly throw the kitchen sink at opponents, seeing us now become the blot on the rest of the top 6's fixture list, it's been interesting to witness the mental contortions people now go through.
People always remember the bad about LVG, but we were always proactive in big games under him, even Mourinho I don't remember us having as little ambition either. LVG & Mourinho did win trophies overall too.
Under Ole, with a better squad than both, it's been on/off (mostly off) turgidness. And no trophies, only bottling everything under the sun when it counts.
tl;dr: Yeah It's been a lovely time really.
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I dont give a crap about how we play or our current success.
Ole wants the right type of players at the club as proven by him going for Sancho and that failing last season, him going for Haaland and that failing and him going for Grealish and possibly getting VDB instead.
I find it great having a manager who focuses on individual brilliance because for years our individual brilliance has not been good enough - and it needs to be focused upon.
I'm patient enough to see if he can get couple of these players in before the players at the club need a significant better manager to improve them from turning from one of the top 3 teams to a title winning team.
I never saw this squad as a title winning team so I am able to be patient.
Ps. I really disagree with the OP on near 100% of his threads.
Ole wants the right type of players at the club as proven by him going for Sancho and that failing last season, him going for Haaland and that failing and him going for Grealish and possibly getting VDB instead.
I find it great having a manager who focuses on individual brilliance because for years our individual brilliance has not been good enough - and it needs to be focused upon.
I'm patient enough to see if he can get couple of these players in before the players at the club need a significant better manager to improve them from turning from one of the top 3 teams to a title winning team.
I never saw this squad as a title winning team so I am able to be patient.
Ps. I really disagree with the OP on near 100% of his threads.
Just because it's better doesn't mean it's good.
That sums up Ole's reign.
That sums up Ole's reign.
This is striking. We’ve only averaged more than two points per game once since Fergie retired by GW27, in 17-18 under Mourinho. Even then, we didn’t win a trophy. If you can’t project more than 76 points with 11 games to go, which this stat shows we have an inability, we will not win the league anytime soon.
To fix that, Glazers and Woodward have to go. They won’t, so stopping short of that, they have to invest to buy top players in 3 key positions, CB, DM and RW. Precisely, Ramos/Varane, Ndidi/Rice and Sancho.
Also, I’ve been on the fence with Ole since the start of the season, but honestly, after last night and our performances recently, we will never be a consistently good team under Ole. He can go on brilliant runs, as he has 3 times here already, but he’ll never make us sustain a level of performance to even challenge for the league. Regression to the mean, if you like. We could well win the last 7 games or so to make top 4 after digging ourselves into such a big hole that we’ll have to do so. Either way, my mind is made up. Ole will never win us a title and therefore, with a year left on his contract, he has to go. Even in that situation, you know we’ll start next season awfully. For me, hire Nagelsmann and give him time to develop his ideas (2 seasons at least) or thoroughbred winners like Allegri or Deschamps. Fourth choice would be Graham Potter, who we also have to allow to develop his ideas.
Its sad to say, but Moyes’ West Ham + Lingard is more exciting to watch than us
Van Gaal's style was actually good. He tried to implement total football. But for that to work you need the right players. If he had Scholes, Xavi, Pirlo or Iniesta in midfield it probably would have worked. We had Schneiderlin and Fellaini. It's amazing that he got it working to any degree at all. Van Gaal has the best style by a mile. Jose and Ole make us play like Stoke City. Kick the ball forward, sprint after it and hope for the best.
P.S. I love Ole, don't fight me.
P.S. I love Ole, don't fight me.