Much better (in the main). That doesn't necessarily mean it's good enough, given the incredibly low bar those two dinosaurs set.
Is Ole’s football really any better than José & LVG’s?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
You could also go back to last season and find a lot of awful games that rival anything LVG and Mourinho put out, I challenge anyone to go and rewatch some of the displays the team showed in the 1st half of last season.
We're a streaky team and always have been under Ole. At our best, I would say the football is better, yes. But at our worst, the football is just as bad as anything that came before Ole. Last night was absolutely soul-destroying and as bad as anything served up under Jose or LVG. And that's the trouble in asking such a question. Because sometimes (too many times) his football isn't better than Jose or LVG, and this has been a pattern since he arrived at the club.
And this is why I ultimately hold the view that while he's not a shite coach or a donkey (or whatever other insults have been thrown at him), I don't believe he's going to be the man to win us a Premier League title or a Champions League title. Or even challenge for one, quite frankly.
And this is why I ultimately hold the view that while he's not a shite coach or a donkey (or whatever other insults have been thrown at him), I don't believe he's going to be the man to win us a Premier League title or a Champions League title. Or even challenge for one, quite frankly.
It is.
The obsessive possession football bonanza under LvG gave us lots of just that, possession, but no attacking intent or penetration. His second season is the only time i actually didn´t want to watch some of our games in my 30+ years of watching United. Absolutely unbearable
With Jose we played "park the bus and just hoof it to a big guy up front and hope he can do something" football. That combined with classic Jose shithousery on the pitch, wasting time and shit, made it unbearable to watch.
Under Ole we´re a bit of a mess but we actually try to play the ball on the ground now. We try to play out from the back instead of just hoofing it, We have a bit of flair in attack, even if we seem to have lost some of it lately. I still look forward to our games now, because i know we can actually play some nice football from time to time.
The obsessive possession football bonanza under LvG gave us lots of just that, possession, but no attacking intent or penetration. His second season is the only time i actually didn´t want to watch some of our games in my 30+ years of watching United. Absolutely unbearable
With Jose we played "park the bus and just hoof it to a big guy up front and hope he can do something" football. That combined with classic Jose shithousery on the pitch, wasting time and shit, made it unbearable to watch.
Under Ole we´re a bit of a mess but we actually try to play the ball on the ground now. We try to play out from the back instead of just hoofing it, We have a bit of flair in attack, even if we seem to have lost some of it lately. I still look forward to our games now, because i know we can actually play some nice football from time to time.
2020-21 (Manager - Ole Gunnar Solskjaer)
After 27 Premier League games, United have:
Compared to:
2014/15 (Manager - Louis Van Gaal)
After 27 Premier League games, United had:
2015/16 (Manager - Louis Van Gaal)
After 27 Premier League games, United had:
2016-17 (Manager - Jose Mourinho)
After 27 Premier League games played, United had:
2017-18 (Manager - Jose Mourinho)
After 27 Premier League games played, United had:
Trophies won at Man United after 26.5 months at the club (the length of time Ole has now been there):
Van Gaal (1)
And the football is still boring to watch the majority of the time.
After 27 Premier League games, United have:
- 51 points
- a +21 goal difference
- are 14 points behind the top of table
Compared to:
2014/15 (Manager - Louis Van Gaal)
After 27 Premier League games, United had:
- 50 points
- a +20 goal difference
- were 13 points behind the top of the table
2015/16 (Manager - Louis Van Gaal)
After 27 Premier League games, United had:
- 44 points
- a +10 goal difference
- were 12 points behind the top of the table
2016-17 (Manager - Jose Mourinho)
After 27 Premier League games played, United had:
- 50 points
- a +17 goal difference
- were 16 points behind the top of the table
2017-18 (Manager - Jose Mourinho)
After 27 Premier League games played, United had:
- 56 points
- a +32 goal difference
- were 16 points behind the top of the table
Trophies won at Man United after 26.5 months at the club (the length of time Ole has now been there):
Van Gaal (1)
- FA Cup (2016)
- FA Community Shield (2016)
- EFL Cup (2017)
- UEFA Europa League (2017)
And the football is still boring to watch the majority of the time.
Five hours since we scored a goal from open play.
Seven 0-0 draws this season, the same as Van Gaal's final season.
Seven 0-0 draws this season, the same as Van Gaal's final season.
But at our worst, we're just as bad as anything that those two previous managers served up, surely? And it happens a fair amount because that's the sort of team we are. That's why I don't think the question is as easy as a yes or no.
Very hard to compare all three
LVG was all possession based, boring yes. But if he had stayed for another year or so and got the players in he wanted ala Mane from Southampton that summer, who knows where we would got to. Tactically superior to Ole.
Mourinho, results first. Defend first anti football. Again tactically superior to Ole.
Ole, cleaning up the squad from the previous 4 managers (fergie, moyes, lvg, mourinho). Doesnt have all the players he needs at moment i.e. wingers but is moving in the right direction. If the club are patient and Ole keeps getting CL qualification as a minimum then 3-4 seasons time we could have an incredible squad especially if some of the talent from the academy make the step up. Some amazing potential in there.
LVG was all possession based, boring yes. But if he had stayed for another year or so and got the players in he wanted ala Mane from Southampton that summer, who knows where we would got to. Tactically superior to Ole.
Mourinho, results first. Defend first anti football. Again tactically superior to Ole.
Ole, cleaning up the squad from the previous 4 managers (fergie, moyes, lvg, mourinho). Doesnt have all the players he needs at moment i.e. wingers but is moving in the right direction. If the club are patient and Ole keeps getting CL qualification as a minimum then 3-4 seasons time we could have an incredible squad especially if some of the talent from the academy make the step up. Some amazing potential in there.
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I do not think Ole is any better than Jose or LvG. At their peak LvG and Jose were 3 levels above. Past their prime LvG and JM are as bad as Ole is currently.
Another knee jerk thread after a bad performance, but this is a fan forum and we have every to throw shit on the wall and see who bites.
The 0-0 to Real Sociedad was an acceptable result. I would have rested key players and risked a defeat, but the result was perfectly acceptable.
The 0-0 to Chelsea was disappointing, but no worse than most of us expected.
The 0-0 to Palace is a fukking debacle and all moaning here is fully warranted.
But let’s not lose our mind over this result. The football on display under Van Gaal and Mourinho was unwatchable, dire beyond belief. We got some results, but it was painful to watch. There’s enough to flog Ole with already but it’s ludicrous to suggest that the football under Ole is a continuation of the zombie football served up by Louis and Jose.
The 0-0 to Real Sociedad was an acceptable result. I would have rested key players and risked a defeat, but the result was perfectly acceptable.
The 0-0 to Chelsea was disappointing, but no worse than most of us expected.
The 0-0 to Palace is a fukking debacle and all moaning here is fully warranted.
But let’s not lose our mind over this result. The football on display under Van Gaal and Mourinho was unwatchable, dire beyond belief. We got some results, but it was painful to watch. There’s enough to flog Ole with already but it’s ludicrous to suggest that the football under Ole is a continuation of the zombie football served up by Louis and Jose.
The highs under Ole has been really high, compared to the previous three.
Build from the back, or something along those lines, SAF I think used to say. Ole looks like that's what he's trying in spending big on Maguire and AWB. He got VdB, who by the looks of it isn't what Ole wanted, considering how little he plays. He persisted with Lingard/Pereira in the Fernandes role, until he got a Fernandes. He's not even trying to fit VdB into the side. Short term/stop gap in Cavani. Guessing he wants someone in attack. probably more than one considering how short we are up front. Give him at least those two/three positions, IMO.
Build from the back, or something along those lines, SAF I think used to say. Ole looks like that's what he's trying in spending big on Maguire and AWB. He got VdB, who by the looks of it isn't what Ole wanted, considering how little he plays. He persisted with Lingard/Pereira in the Fernandes role, until he got a Fernandes. He's not even trying to fit VdB into the side. Short term/stop gap in Cavani. Guessing he wants someone in attack. probably more than one considering how short we are up front. Give him at least those two/three positions, IMO.
Pretty damning this. No surprise, a few of the games we won were very tight with the odd moment making the difference.
Seasons far from over too. Imagine how many more 0-0's we'll rack up, and more comps to bottle I wonder.
All this with a miles better squad than anything LVG had. If the club aren't already preparing for his successor there's no chance for us.
It was markedly better until the last month and a half.
What gives you the confidence that the academy players can make the step up considering the likes of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood has struggled with consistency throughout Ole's tenure?
Their development has stalled and it's showing in their performances for us.
Better than LvG for sure but on average we're about the same as Jose. I think with Ole and Jose we are/were decent to watch about 25% of the time. The low points of Jose football were intentional though which made it harder to watch.
No-one knows, if the academy players will make the required step up, we dont have a crystal ball. Some make the step up, stagnate and dont develop further others keep improving and become top stars.
What should be apparent to the club and all top clubs with aspirations of winning the CL (Real Madrid aside as they are the outlier). Is that Milan 93-94, Ajax 94-95, Utd 99, Milan again, Bayern mutiple occasions, Barcelona multiple occasions all had 4 or 5 top home grown stars (sometimes more) in their squads.
Its written in the history of the CL, you want to be successful over a fixed period of time i.e. 5 seasons plus, a core of your team needs home grown stars.
Now developing these stars is easier said than done, but where Utd are concerned, we have a very promising crop coming through, if and its a big if, 3-4 of these can become top level stars we have a great chance of being successful again.
I think on paper the academy has the best young talent since the early 90s. I might be wrong and folk who watch alot of academy football might differ. But there is a chance we just need to be patient.
We cant go toe to toe against a soverign state i.e. City/Abu Dhabi. We have to cut our cloth accordingly. City will fall into some fallow years when Guardiola moves on. Then re-emerge. We need to take that opportunity when City are at the end of their cycle, post guardiola. That is a few years from now. See out Guardiola and to an extent Klopp and our squad could peak at the right time and be successfully over a sustained period again.
Goes through varying degrees of peaks & troughs.
It's a little bit better sometimes, and a lot better occasionally. But there's no consistency, obviously.
I think a real source of pain comes from watching a team like Man City and knowing, deep down, that Utd will never be as good as them while the club is on this current trajectory.
I get that the club, as an entity, is aiming to be competitive when Guardiola leaves. It's just a shame that Man Utd will never be able to go toe-to-toe with his team in the league. If he ends up staying for another 5+ years, then that's at least 5+ years until Utd could realistically hope to challenge for the title. That's a long time.
And while Guardiola had an off-year last year, the UEFA charges were hanging over the club for most of it. Now that that's been put to bed, there's a real fear that City are only just starting their period of domination. That's disheartening. Not just for the fans, I think it's affecting the players at the club as well. They would be looking at how Man City play their games and feel deeply disheartened that they could never hope to play cohesive, slick, dominating football like that. It probably eats away at them. And when you factor in the amount of money that Utd spend, on salaries as well as transfers, then the team being so far away from their rivals is devastating. Absolutely devastating. This has led to complaints from fans about City's money, etc. but that's ignoring the fact that Utd are going toe-to-toe with them in the spending aspect. Utd have just messed it all up. And if we can see that, then the players can see it too. It's depressing.
I think a real source of pain comes from watching a team like Man City and knowing, deep down, that Utd will never be as good as them while the club is on this current trajectory.
I get that the club, as an entity, is aiming to be competitive when Guardiola leaves. It's just a shame that Man Utd will never be able to go toe-to-toe with his team in the league. If he ends up staying for another 5+ years, then that's at least 5+ years until Utd could realistically hope to challenge for the title. That's a long time.
And while Guardiola had an off-year last year, the UEFA charges were hanging over the club for most of it. Now that that's been put to bed, there's a real fear that City are only just starting their period of domination. That's disheartening. Not just for the fans, I think it's affecting the players at the club as well. They would be looking at how Man City play their games and feel deeply disheartened that they could never hope to play cohesive, slick, dominating football like that. It probably eats away at them. And when you factor in the amount of money that Utd spend, on salaries as well as transfers, then the team being so far away from their rivals is devastating. Absolutely devastating. This has led to complaints from fans about City's money, etc. but that's ignoring the fact that Utd are going toe-to-toe with them in the spending aspect. Utd have just messed it all up. And if we can see that, then the players can see it too. It's depressing.
We were rarely pure garbage under LvG and José. And that was by design. We kept it simple and avoided risks. We just played an incredibly boring style of football. Under Ole we are more all over the place, we take lots of risks and try to play a more difficult and sexy style of football. We are still unfortunately not very good at it and when we are shit we are old school, slap stick comedy kind of bad. But the moments here and there when we actually pull it off i think it looks really nice. Makes me hopeful for the future. If we change manager i cincerely hope we can keep a similar direction at least
I agree with the bold part and that is pretty much what I said. When we do play some good stuff, I do enjoy it more than anything the previous managers served up. It's just a pity we're all over the place in terms of consistency.
Rooney wasn't that bad during the first Van Gaal season. The second one however, it was tough to justify his place.
I think in the first season it really didn't help that Van Persie had a sudden decline. He was very good in the Moyes season, but after the 2014 World Cup he fell off a cliff as far as his level.
What made Van Gaal go from a very sucessfull manager in the late 90's to being sacked by us ? Did the game just passed him by or he just didn't have the players here to apply his style ?
Almere City FC sacked Ole Tobiasen today. I thought about making a topic about it, but figured "Ole sacked" might create some confusion.
Solskjaer gives his players freedom which makes the football look better than rigid structures of Van Gaal and Mourinho. That's about it.
Fair
Definitely better overall. Still some absolute dogshit performances ala last night but we've had more highs for sure.
So basically points wise we’re about the same, and we’re winning less trophies.
“progress”
Sobering read.
We played out 6 nil nil draws this season with 10 games to go and some are still saying that Ole ball is better than LvG or José
The most nil nil draws we had recently were 3 under LvG in 2015
Deluded
The most nil nil draws we had recently were 3 under LvG in 2015
Deluded
Yeah but he knows the United way and that... I mean I thought the United way was winning trophies & playing good football, but apparently I was wrong..We played out 6 nil nil draws this season with 10 games to go and some are still saying that Ole ball is better than LvG or José
The most nil nil draws we had recently were 3 under LvG in 2015
Deluded
You can look at it one of two ways. Harsh: Hes shit, and hasnt taken us forward. Or Positive: hes as good a manager as LVG and Jose. But those are two managers who werent good enough for us. So either way, Ole aint the man.
In my opinion definitely lack of quality on the wings. Individual quality in terms of dribbling, passing players on the wings etc.
Van Gaals system definitely requires those kind of players. Di Maria sadly didn't really perform, he should have been that kind of player for United back then. Other than him, they weren't any quality dribbler in the team as far as I remember.
I think you also have to factor in he'd been out of domestic football for a few years, then he came here and our scouts recommended him previous targets (Herrera, Shaw), new targets (Schneiderlin) etc. but otherwise he had to go off his old knowledge of players he'd seen in the WC (Memphis, Blind, Rojo) or tried to sign previously (ADM). That was always going to be a disaster. I always thought he'd be a good transition coach to move us towards more attacking possession based football but, alas, Mourinho then came.
People comparing him to Jose and LvG
Progress from Jose means winning more than 2 titles and achieving more than 2nd or 81 points in the league .. we‘re miles off that
I mean how can you compare 2 managers who did so much in the game and won trophies everywhere including United to Ole
Say that in any non Utd football forum or cafe, people will laugh at you a lot
He‘s out of his depth, his post game itws are an embarrassment and the rest of the fanbase still supporting this are gonna have to learn the hard way because it will get worse until Pogba comes back
Van Gaal's football may have been boring at times, but we never looked out of our depth against top opposition. We had a style of play and were not afraid to impose it on our opposition. Ole changes things and goes far too defensive and reactive in what he considers difficult matches.We played out 6 nil nil draws this season with 10 games to go and some are still saying that Ole ball is better than LvG or José
The most nil nil draws we had recently were 3 under LvG in 2015
Deluded
LVG’s style and tactics may have worked if we actually had pace on the wings and more dynamic midfield. According to him, we struck out on a lot of his top targets.
Agreed
He wanted Schweinsteiger, who was never going to offer a dynamic midfield, and wanted Memphis, who was suppposed to offer something on the wing... He made his fair share of errors.