Is our Midfield that Bad?

Rossa

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United lost Herrera and Fellaini recently. Many fans argue that we need to replace both, but Fellaini was hardly much cared for by the average supporter, and most wanted him gone. Herrera was useful and a fan favourite. He also possessed a winning mentality and had some skill. However, many would argue neither player was world class and that they weren't automatic starters.

On paper, some argue that Pogba is the best midfielder in the world. Matic was terrible last year, but there's reason to believe he can improve his form. I think too many fans think you are finished after 30. He's slow, but he's always been slow. Then we have Fred, who is capped for Brazil and was wanted by Guardiola when we bought him. On paper, I'd argue that trio is better than Liverpool's. The problem is, they haven't played better. To get them to that level, each player has to improve massively. This is Fred's second season, so I have hope that he can improve. He has potential.

Then you hav McTominay who seems to be ready to step in as a starter for us. I'm actually surprised at how good he has become. He doesn't have any stand out qualities, but he keeps it simple, positions himself well and makes some good attacking runs.

Pereira is an odd one for me, and I'd be surprised if he starts regularly. He's hardworking, can dribble and is very mobile for a centre mid, but too slow for a winger, so a bit like Beckham physically. I think he's a good squad option, and not much worse then most teams' fifth option in midfield.

Then you have Gomes and Garner who can both play in midfield and make up our squad depth. Two great young prospects that most argue need to be given time in the first team. Another first team signing would hamper those prospects.

I think we could definitely use a better number ten, where we have Mata, Lingard and Gomes, but if played regularly as a ten, Mata may surprise a few of us. He is slow as a turtle (mean on the turtle), but you don't need pace to be an effective number ten.

If we find a way to make these players click, I don't think our midfield is bad at all, but every player needs to step up. Considering that none of them, bar Matic, has hit their prime yet, I think that is to be expected.

I think the lack of a new attacking player is actually more of a concern!
 

The Boy

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There's more negative threads about our midfield than there are midfielder's for us
There's more negative threads overall than there are posters on the caf to start them
 

Oldyella

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I guess a lot depends on how Ole sets us up when the serious stuff starts and if Pogba stays or not.

Matic looks shot, if Ole sticks by him I can see him costing him his job long term, he's been that bad.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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On paper it is, but football isn't played on paper. A good manager can lift a team up and fully maximize it.

Liverpool's midfielder on paper isn't anything special, but on the field it works to a tee.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Our starting CMs (Pogba, McSauce) can be world class and very good on their days respectively, but both have a low bar when things are not going well. Their back ups however, have lower highs and disastrous lows.

If one of Pogba/McT is rested, we're always one brainfart under pressure away from Matic/Fred losing the ball to a high press which usually ends in a goalscoring chance. Fred never seems composed on the ball and Matic cannot track back. Pereira is a feisty one going forward, but he's not really shown that he has it in him defensively.

Over the course of a season, we'll lose more games because of the midfield than win due to their contributions. It's easy to press us, it's easy to outnumber us, it's easy to outrun us and it's easy to pass circles around us as even Inter have shown.

We're walking on a thin line with no quality depth, our midfield is indeed an absolute mess in terms of defensive abilities, keeping the ball moving or resisting press.
 

CM

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Our starting CMs (Pogba, McSauce) can be world class and very good on their days respectively, but both have a low bar when things are not going well. Their back ups however, have lower highs and disastrous lows.

If one of Pogba/McT is rested, we're always one brainfart under pressure away from Matic/Fred losing the ball to a high press which usually ends in a goalscoring chance. Fred never seems composed on the ball and Matic cannot track back. Pereira is a feisty one going forward, but he's not really shown that he has it in him defensively.

Over the course of a season, we'll lose more games because of the midfield than win due to their contributions. It's easy to press us, it's easy to outnumber us, it's easy to outrun us and it's easy to pass circles around us as even Inter have shown.

We're walking on a thin line with no quality depth, our midfield is indeed an absolute mess in terms of defensive abilities, keeping the ball moving or resisting press.
Good post. This basically sums up everything I feel about our midfield as well.
 

SaintMuppet

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A serious injury and a bad loss of form from being abysmal.

Matic has already provided the latter so you do the math. It’s looking a bit thin in there. The option to use Jones/Tuanzebe remains so I hope we don’t see Axel sent on loan anywhere. I’d rather one of them played CM than pulling down one of the forwards.

Still shocked we didn’t buy/loan for midfield but it’s done now
 

koop

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I think its a case of you don't know what you've got til its gone. I was never a fan of losing Fellaini. I understand he wasn't the traditional United standard but losing him wasn't a good idea, same goes for Herrera (more so since we haven't replaced them).

Matic wasn't that good last season, but the season before I thought he was brilliant and partly pivotal to our 2nd place success. Fred remains a mystery to me, semi decent dribbler but I feel we only bought him last minute to deny City.

McTominay I always thought was good and has so much potential. He's just proving it to us now. I think if we give him regular first team minutes he will become our best midfielder down the years, no doubt. I know it's a big claim but I see something in him.

Pereira has moments but he's like Fred for me, a good dribbler but can't really see what else he brings. Not to mention one of the worst tacklers I've seen.

Not seen much of Garner so I won't comment, Gomes I think would be outstanding for us if we gave him the first team experience regularly.

Mata I agree should be our 10, he needs to use his vision and passing more than his pace and we should push Lingard to the right to use his 'pace'.

Overall I think you're right. It's not as bad as people make it out to be, but then again we have expectations considering who we are. So it's understandable why most of us are unhappy. Not much to do now but wait and see..
 
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United lost Herrera and Fellaini recently. Many fans argue that we need to replace both, but Fellaini was hardly much cared for by the average supporter, and most wanted him gone. Herrera was useful and a fan favourite. He also possessed a winning mentality and had some skill. However, many would argue neither player was world class and that they weren't automatic starters.

On paper, some argue that Pogba is the best midfielder in the world. Matic was terrible last year, but there's reason to believe he can improve his form. I think too many fans think you are finished after 30. He's slow, but he's always been slow. Then we have Fred, who is capped for Brazil and was wanted by Guardiola when we bought him. On paper, I'd argue that trio is better than Liverpool's. The problem is, they haven't played better. To get them to that level, each player has to improve massively. This is Fred's second season, so I have hope that he can improve. He has potential.

Then you hav McTominay who seems to be ready to step in as a starter for us. I'm actually surprised at how good he has become. He doesn't have any stand out qualities, but he keeps it simple, positions himself well and makes some good attacking runs.

Pereira is an odd one for me, and I'd be surprised if he starts regularly. He's hardworking, can dribble and is very mobile for a centre mid, but too slow for a winger, so a bit like Beckham physically. I think he's a good squad option, and not much worse then most teams' fifth option in midfield.

Then you have Gomes and Garner who can both play in midfield and make up our squad depth. Two great young prospects that most argue need to be given time in the first team. Another first team signing would hamper those prospects.

I think we could definitely use a better number ten, where we have Mata, Lingard and Gomes, but if played regularly as a ten, Mata may surprise a few of us. He is slow as a turtle (mean on the turtle), but you don't need pace to be an effective number ten.

If we find a way to make these players click, I don't think our midfield is bad at all, but every player needs to step up. Considering that none of them, bar Matic, has hit their prime yet, I think that is to be expected.

I think the lack of a new attacking player is actually more of a concern!
Bad is a wrong word. Its just imbalanced. The starting midfield has just 1 creative player. Unless we promote, the imbalance can't be addressed. Hopefully we will finally see the real Fred this season. Then push Pogba to 10. I hope McTominay is gifted the starting spot he deserves
 
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Loon

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If McTominay can be the Herrera to Pogba, it could be promising. Be wonderful if he came into his own like Fletcher this season.
 

meamth

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It seems like we're going for permanent 4-2-3-1 formation due to our stockpile of AM (Lingard/Mata/Sanchez/Gomes/Perreira/Pogba)
I'm too lazy to research the past great sides with a permanent no.10 in starting eleven supported by a double midfield pivot.

Any caf experts here can list down great sides with 4-2-3-1 formation?
 

R'hllor

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United lost Herrera and Fellaini recently. Many fans argue that we need to replace both, but Fellaini was hardly much cared for by the average supporter, and most wanted him gone. Herrera was useful and a fan favourite. He also possessed a winning mentality and had some skill. However, many would argue neither player was world class and that they weren't automatic starters.

On paper, some argue that Pogba is the best midfielder in the world. Matic was terrible last year, but there's reason to believe he can improve his form. I think too many fans think you are finished after 30. He's slow, but he's always been slow. Then we have Fred, who is capped for Brazil and was wanted by Guardiola when we bought him. On paper, I'd argue that trio is better than Liverpool's. The problem is, they haven't played better. To get them to that level, each player has to improve massively. This is Fred's second season, so I have hope that he can improve. He has potential.

Then you hav McTominay who seems to be ready to step in as a starter for us. I'm actually surprised at how good he has become. He doesn't have any stand out qualities, but he keeps it simple, positions himself well and makes some good attacking runs.

Pereira is an odd one for me, and I'd be surprised if he starts regularly. He's hardworking, can dribble and is very mobile for a centre mid, but too slow for a winger, so a bit like Beckham physically. I think he's a good squad option, and not much worse then most teams' fifth option in midfield.

Then you have Gomes and Garner who can both play in midfield and make up our squad depth. Two great young prospects that most argue need to be given time in the first team. Another first team signing would hamper those prospects.

I think we could definitely use a better number ten, where we have Mata, Lingard and Gomes, but if played regularly as a ten, Mata may surprise a few of us. He is slow as a turtle (mean on the turtle), but you don't need pace to be an effective number ten.

If we find a way to make these players click, I don't think our midfield is bad at all, but every player needs to step up. Considering that none of them, bar Matic, has hit their prime yet, I think that is to be expected.

I think the lack of a new attacking player is actually more of a concern!
:lol: and thats the moment where i stopped reading.
 

Stacks

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Our starting CMs (Pogba, McSauce) can be world class and very good on their days respectively, but both have a low bar when things are not going well. Their back ups however, have lower highs and disastrous lows.

If one of Pogba/McT is rested, we're always one brainfart under pressure away from Matic/Fred losing the ball to a high press which usually ends in a goalscoring chance. Fred never seems composed on the ball and Matic cannot track back. Pereira is a feisty one going forward, but he's not really shown that he has it in him defensively.

Over the course of a season, we'll lose more games because of the midfield than win due to their contributions. It's easy to press us, it's easy to outnumber us, it's easy to outrun us and it's easy to pass circles around us as even Inter have shown.

We're walking on a thin line with no quality depth, our midfield is indeed an absolute mess in terms of defensive abilities, keeping the ball moving or resisting press.
Amen. I dont see why we could not secure a loan deal like Spurs or Arsenal which means we are content with our options. Basically Ole has to basically turn into some tactical magician over night to get a tune :nervous:
 

Rossa

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Bad is a wrong word. Its just imbalanced. The starting midfield has just 1 creative player. Unless we promote, the imbalance can't be addressed. Hopefully we will finally see the real Fred this season. Then push Pogba to 10. I hope McTominay is gifted the starting spot he deserves
I think Fred can be creative. McTominay doesn't seem too bad either if given the chance. He seems a good passer and improved overall. My biggest concern is Matic. If he replicates his first season form for us, we have a great player. If he plays like he did last season and against Inter, we will struggle big time.
 

Escobar

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Compared to the other top 4 teams, it has less quality and less depth. We will be over dependent on Pogba and McT. Pereira, Matic and Fred are huge question marks
 

Infra-red

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It's dreadful - the weakest of any side that will be in contention for the top 6 this season.

Absolutely no creativity if Pogba is out/sulking/having a bad day, offers very little protection for the defence and has nobody to dictate the tempo of the play. In short, it is incapable of carrying out pretty much every task you might ask of your midfielders.
 

R'hllor

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Why? He was great the season before. Many "older" players have been written off because of poor form, but then bounced back.
What!? Matic was great season before? You for real?
 

Patience

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A lot of fans don't appreciate what a good midfield is.

The beauty and genius of so many midfielders is to read the game. Therefore a lot of their work is done off the ball.

And this goes unnoticed by so many fans.

For example: Our fan base was giving out about our midfield ever since we lost Roy Keane in 2005 right up until Fergie retired in 2013. They kept saying 'our midfield isn't good enough', 'we have no world class midfielders', 'Fletcher is shit', 'We need a Roy Keane-type', 'moan, moan, moan, moan.' For years!

Yet - the midfielders between 2005 - 2013 turned out to be our best midfield of all time, because that was the most successful period in our entire 140-year history.

That midfield won five league titles in those seven seasons and got us to three Champions League finals.

Some fans were still giving out. Even today, you still read 'fans' complaining that Fergie never sorted the midfield after Keane's exit.

They clearly don't understand what it takes to create a great midfield.

In any one game, any player only ever has the ball at his feet for 2% of the ninety minutes; yet fans will ONLY judge what he does during that 2%.. they miss the entirety of the other 98%. And that other 98% is what is key for midfielders and defenders.

Our midfield is perfectly balanced at the moment.

We have three positions:

A No.6
A No.8
A No.10

For each of those options, we have

No.6 McTominay, Matic, Garner
No.8 Pobga, Fred, Pereira
No.10 Sanchez, Mata, Lingard, Gomes

Paul Pogba is arguably the best midfielder in the world, and people are giving out that our midfield isn't good enough.
 
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Beagle

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Our starting CMs (Pogba, McSauce) can be world class and very good on their days respectively, but both have a low bar when things are not going well. Their back ups however, have lower highs and disastrous lows.

If one of Pogba/McT is rested, we're always one brainfart under pressure away from Matic/Fred losing the ball to a high press which usually ends in a goalscoring chance. Fred never seems composed on the ball and Matic cannot track back. Pereira is a feisty one going forward, but he's not really shown that he has it in him defensively.

Over the course of a season, we'll lose more games because of the midfield than win due to their contributions. It's easy to press us, it's easy to outnumber us, it's easy to outrun us and it's easy to pass circles around us as even Inter have shown.

We're walking on a thin line with no quality depth, our midfield is indeed an absolute mess in terms of defensive abilities, keeping the ball moving or resisting press.
McTominay world class on his day? And Pogba too? Which days are these? The end of days maybe.
 

Rossa

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So, our poor midfield will be OK as long as everyone improves massively? Well, yeah...
Fred struggled in his first season - most improve the second season as we can expect him to. McTominay is steadily improving. Pereira is still fairly young and improving. Pogba needs to be more consistent, but he can be truly world class on his day. I don't think it's that absurd a claim. Most of our midfielders are quite young, so you would expect more consistency in the future.
 

The Boy

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In any one game, any player only ever has the ball at his feet for 2% of the ninety minutes; yet fans will ONLY judge what he does during that 2%.. they miss the entirety of the other 98%. And that other 98% is what is key for midfielders and defenders.

Our midfield is perfectly balanced at the moment.

We have three positions:

A No.6
A No.8
A No.10

For each of those options, we have

No.6 McTominay, Matic, Garner
No.8 Pobga, Fred, Pereira
No.10 Sanchez, Mata, Lingard, Gomes

Paul Pogba is arguably the best midfielder in the world, and people are giving out that our midfield isn't good enough.
Good post - standing up to the tidal wave of negativity, If I could like I would!
 

Jezpeza

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I guess a lot depends on how Ole sets us up when the serious stuff starts and if Pogba stays or not.

Matic looks shot, if Ole sticks by him I can see him costing him his job long term, he's been that bad.
I agree tbh, he Looked appalling in pre season. Lost count of how many times he got caught in possession. So off the pace as well, always looks like he is playing with an injury hes that immobile. Jury is out on Mctominay but he looked a lot better than Matic in pre season
 

Red_toad

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Matic
McTommy Pogba​
Isn’t a bad trio

But
Fred
Jesse Angel?
Isn’t really top level cover. We really needed Longstaff or someone with similar attributes.
 

Ekeke

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Kinda. Realistically yes. But managed in the right way it'll be good going forward, but give little to no protection to our CBs. Maguire will have to defend like an £80 million CB

Attacking wise Pogba and Gomes sounds incredible. But thats assuming Gomes gets lots of chances and games, and plays well when he does.

Defensively we have a DM who was shirking half his responsibility last season to Ander doing 1.5x DM work. Now theres no Ander to paper over his many cracks. McTominay is a fairly good young player who has some of the determination Ander had, but its very unlikely he's going to win the ball anywhere near as much as Ander did. Ander was one of the best at it, to expect McTominay to go from last season to this season being a monster ball winner is unrealistic.

Fred wins the ball a bit more which is good, but he's had some big problems with his first touch and being caught on the ball. If he cant fix how nervous he is when he receives the ball deep then he isnt going to make it.
 

dove

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It's quite terrible, yeah.

Matic is liability.
Fred has been quite shocking so far.
Pereira not good enough, he is like a Lukaku of midfielders. Passing is just terrible for a midfielder.
McTominay can be decent depending on which position he is played in.
Garner is not ready.
 

KiD MoYeS

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I wouldn't say the midfield is bad just yet as we have yet to see too much of Fred, McTominay and Pereira. How many games do they have between them in a Manchester United shirt? Can't imagine it is too many. They deserve a chance before we write them off.
 

flappyjay

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Midfield importance is underrated in this forum. Pogba is the only creative player in our whole when he is off our front is expected to create for themselves, there should be another mid to share that burden. Lingard and Mata a no where near good enough In that department too.

Also the Liverpool comparison can't be used. Their deficiencies in providing chances is offset by the fullbacks. That's my opinion.
 

Real Madras

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United lost Herrera and Fellaini recently. Many fans argue that we need to replace both, but Fellaini was hardly much cared for by the average supporter, and most wanted him gone. Herrera was useful and a fan favourite. He also possessed a winning mentality and had some skill. However, many would argue neither player was world class and that they weren't automatic starters.

On paper, some argue that Pogba is the best midfielder in the world. Matic was terrible last year, but there's reason to believe he can improve his form. I think too many fans think you are finished after 30. He's slow, but he's always been slow. Then we have Fred, who is capped for Brazil and was wanted by Guardiola when we bought him. On paper, I'd argue that trio is better than Liverpool's. The problem is, they haven't played better. To get them to that level, each player has to improve massively. This is Fred's second season, so I have hope that he can improve. He has potential.

Then you hav McTominay who seems to be ready to step in as a starter for us. I'm actually surprised at how good he has become. He doesn't have any stand out qualities, but he keeps it simple, positions himself well and makes some good attacking runs.

Pereira is an odd one for me, and I'd be surprised if he starts regularly. He's hardworking, can dribble and is very mobile for a centre mid, but too slow for a winger, so a bit like Beckham physically. I think he's a good squad option, and not much worse then most teams' fifth option in midfield.

Then you have Gomes and Garner who can both play in midfield and make up our squad depth. Two great young prospects that most argue need to be given time in the first team. Another first team signing would hamper those prospects.

I think we could definitely use a better number ten, where we have Mata, Lingard and Gomes, but if played regularly as a ten, Mata may surprise a few of us. He is slow as a turtle (mean on the turtle), but you don't need pace to be an effective number ten.

If we find a way to make these players click, I don't think our midfield is bad at all, but every player needs to step up. Considering that none of them, bar Matic, has hit their prime yet, I think that is to be expected.

I think the lack of a new attacking player is actually more of a concern!
Your post is well written and has made me feel slightly better about not signing any midfielders. We do have some decent players in there if they play to their potential and feel maybe we can get results if all these guys improve and stay fit. I remain optimistic about this season. Everyone thinks we will finish 6th and that suits me just fine. Take the pressure away from the lads. Play your game and I think we can surprise a few. I also feel Sanchez is going to be our best player this year.
 

Ikon

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Matic was terrible last year, but there's reason to believe he can improve his form.!
Based upon what..?
As you said terrible last year, poor in pre-season too...

I work with some proper Chelsea fans (not the plastic hoorays of recent years) and they were complaining about Matic being a spent force and in serious decline even before they sold him to United.

Not all, but some players do just run out of juice in their late 20's early 30's, Matic is one of them.
 

lysglimt

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A midfield of Pogba, McTominay and Gomes can actually be very good. Fred I don't believe in.
 

Jezpeza

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Based upon what..?
As you said terrible last year, poor in pre-season too...

I work with some proper Chelsea fans (not the plastic hoorays of recent years) and they were complaining about Matic being a spent force and in serious decline even before they sold him to United.

Not all, but some players do just run out of juice in their late 20's early 30's, Matic is one of them.
Yeah. Dreadful in pre season. Always caught in possession. Looks an effort for him to control a ground pass and play another one. Remember Everton when he just stopped running. Any half decent attacking player can dribble round him like he's a cone and if a full back is caught upfield he cant get out to the wings to cover. He is useless in cdm and has no other function. Sell him to china, if we can
 

Dan_F

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A lot of fans don't appreciate what a good midfield is.

The beauty and genius of so many midfielders is to read the game. Therefore a lot of their work is off the ball.

And this goes unnoticed by so many fans.

For example: Our fan base was giving out about our midfield ever since we lost Roy Keane in 2005 right up until Fergie retired in 2013. They kept saying 'our midfield isn't good enough', 'we have no world class midfielders'.

Yet - the midfielders between 2005 - 2013 turned out to be our best midfield of all time, because that was the most successful period in our entire history.

That midfield won five league titles in those seven seasons and got us to three Champions League finals.

Some fans were still giving out. Even today, you still read 'fans' complaining that Fergie never sorted the midfield after Keane left.

They clearly don't understand what it takes to create a great midfield.

In any one game, any player only ever has the ball at his feet for 2% of the ninety minutes; yet fans will ONLY judge what he does during that 2%.. they miss the entirety of the other 98%. And that other 98% is what is key for midfielders and defenders.

Our midfield is perfectly balanced at the moment.

We have three positions:

A No.6
A No.8
A No.10

For each of those options, we have

No.6 McTominay, Matic, Garner
No.8 Pobga, Fred, Pereira
No.10 Sanchez, Mata, Lingard, Gomes

Paul Pogba is arguably the best midfielder in the world, and people are giving out that our midfield isn't good enough.
McTominay looks better at 8 to me. Matic looks done and Garner is completely unproven but could turn out to be decent.
We do have flexibility in terms of numbers but I’m not sure you can really count someone like Sanchez as we’d be overrun completely with him and Pogba in a midfield three, due to the weakness at DM.

Unfortunately it’s more to do with the fact that the quality in the first three isn’t good enough. Yes Pogba is brilliant, but after that the drop off is so massive, especially creatively. The likes of Lingard, Fred, Pereira should all be creative options but they aren’t really offering anything. Add in one more high level midfielder instead of one of the squad options and it’s a different proposition.

Also, this is made worse by the fact that our attack is so under powered on paper. Hopefully Martial/Rashford step up, but going into a season with so many questions about attack and midfield is dumb.