Is Pogba as good as gone?

sammsky1

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The fact that you have to come back with exaggerated points like "Pogba's da best" or "tag me next time Pogba delivers his 1 in 15 game worldie against Crewe Alexander" showed that his post is pretty much on point.
Erm. Sarcasm?

Also @Brwned does tag me every time Pogba has a good game proclaiming his brilliance.

This is a long standing discussion between us. It’s all good.
 

The_Order

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Because you associate personality characteristics you're unfamiliar with, founded on a generational stereotype and a misunderstanding of the culture he exists in, with an idea of mental fortitude and dedication. You then come to this unfalsifiable conclusion that he is who you say he is, despite only ever getting a glimpse of him through this bizarre lens of media spotlight.

You then reject any of the things he says, or reports about him, that contradict those views, and celebrate everything that fits your narrative. And when people take a different perspective, your view is so firmly grounded that they could only possibly be a fanboy, a sycophant, or something worse, and your view hardens further.

And it's all rooted in this notion of what a football player ought to be - a ludicrous notion, if analysed in any depth.

That, and the money. People get really hung up on the money. It created an expectation he was never going to fulfil.
Excellent post, succinct in its poignant insight into the mentality of your typical English football fan.


Thanks for proving that you always speak up for the Pogba fanboy sycophants. Decent of you, I must say.

I have a lot of 'personality characteristics' in common with Pogba, I think he's a decent man. But thats neither here nor there. My commentary on him is purely as an employee of the club I support. He's an over rated footballer who doesn't give 2 shits about my club: that's pretty indisputable, even for a sycophant like you.

You only ever pop up and spout 'Pogba's da best' when he delivers one Hollywood pass against some cannon fodder: happens about every 2 months, (when he's not injured). Beyond that, every word above is hyperactive, over intellectualised self righteous claptrap, and none of which can be substantiated with any evidence. Really, its just a few new fancy words to make the same old excuses for Pogba.

As usual but sadly not that often, I expect you to tag me next time Pogba delivers his 1 in 15 game worldie against Crewe Alexander, proclaiming his generational genius. Question I want answered is why you disappear with the tags in the 14 games in between?
A poor response, symptomatic of the ad hominems and bad faith arguments the above post theorised.

You read his post and proceeded to prove him right.
 

VP89

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I wonder if he would be a hit at Real given the timing. Right now their side is also disjointed and the midfield needs a revamp. He's better when he joins a fully functioning midfield, like an icing on a cake. I don't know if moving to Real will help him discover his long term form.

Were all about to find out soon enough I guess.
 

OleTheGreat

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I have a feeling Pogba's heart is not in it anymore. I think he wants to go win titles but a true legend is one who makes that happen for himself and not go somewhere where it would be evident. I thought he returned to United to help his team really get to the top but i now think he's had enough and never expected us as a club to have stooped this low. He's a great player no doubt but i think he needs to do a lot more to actually prove he's world class. I don't think he'll be himself even if he got back to Juve knowing full well that Pirlo doesn't exist anymore and it will never be the same again.

Pogba needs to buckle up and come back to help us retain the title. I really like him and hope he makes the right decision in this regard. We haven't seen the best of him and i wish for him to become a legend here.
 

JPRouve

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I wonder if he would be a hit at Real given the timing. Right now their side is also disjointed and the midfield needs a revamp. He's better when he joins a fully functioning midfield, like an icing on a cake. I don't know if moving to Real will help him discover his long term form.

Were all about to find out soon enough I guess.
The thing is Pogba is 26, most top midfielders find their game between that time and 32-33 years old. So unless he is one of these players that matures early and peaked in its early 20s, Pogba should have his best and more stable years in the next 5 to 10 years.
 

JPRouve

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I have a feeling Pogba's heart is not in it anymore. I think he wants to go win titles but a true legend is one who makes that happen for himself and not go somewhere where it would be evident. I thought he returned to United to help his team really get to the top but i now think he's had enough and never expected us as a club to have stooped this low. He's a great player no doubt but i think he needs to do a lot more to actually prove he's world class. I don't think he'll be himself even if he got back to Juve knowing full well that Pirlo doesn't exist anymore and it will never be the same again.

Pogba needs to buckle up and come back to help us retain the title. I really like him and hope he makes the right decision in this regard. We haven't seen the best of him and i wish for him to become a legend here.
Who are these true legends that didn't move to the best clubs, outside of players that were already in the best clubs?
 

sammsky1

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Excellent post, succinct in its poignant insight into the mentality of your typical English football fan.



A poor response, symptomatic of the ad hominems and bad faith arguments the above post theorised.

You read his post and proceeded to prove him right.
Well he certainly united his fellow Pogba Fanboys with his latest set of excuses, I’ll give him that. Click of the fingers and you all fall into line. Impressive.
 

JPRouve

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What's your point? He has to move now to actually become a legend or stay where he is because we are a huge club?
Why are you even talking about legends, is that the standard for football players become legends? And which legend didn't move to a great club in order to fullfil its potential or wasn't already in a great team.
In general players move during their career and the main two reasons are to earn more money or be surrounded by better players. So I'm simply wondering where your statement come from what is the reference that you are using.

And Pogba doesn't really have the obvious potential to be a legendary player, so I'm not even sure about using that type of lofty standards for a player that isn't close to be the best of his generation.
 

kundalini

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Pogba wants to leave but it is not at all clear that any of the small number of clubs he would be willing to join, are prepared to pay a figure that United might be prepared to accept. To take Real Madrid for example, while Zidane clearly wants Pogba, Madrid's board do not believe he is worth the money involved at this stage. So for starters, Zidane would need to be in a very strong position next summer, in order to force through the deal.

I would not be at all surprised if Pogba is here next season. In the medium term I do expect him to leave United. Next summer he will have one year left + the one year option, so effectively two years. Hazard went for close to £100m with one year left on his Chelsea contract. These deals are not easy to do.
 
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Bestietom

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im hoping for a clean and smooth parting, it suits both parties. No need to abuse him, just get it over with and move on
I agree, as long as we get a fair price for him and not swap, with over the hill players involved.
 

Buster15

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I agree with you sir.

I have several issues with him which make me question his skill and character.

He drops his head and disappears when his intentions don't come off. We see him wildly gesticulate at himself, the narcissist that he is, and then quickly disappear into a self inflicted sulk, which then carries on for several games. We often see performances when he literally 'cant be arsed' as though the club's issues and the opposition team is not worthy of a player of his status. He can't sustain a body of work beyond a couple of games.

Add that to his inability to play across the midfield; his fanboys tell us that to see his genius, he has to play left of a midfield 3 with XY player supporting behind, alongside and in front. And when that specific and complex algorithm of circumstances can't be met, we are told he has to be allowed a free pass, that we are lucky to have him. Posters used to mock Gerrard for his tendency to try stupid 'hollywood passes', and yet when Pogba's gets his 1 in 10 attempt right, it's propagated as genius across social media. Paul Pogba really is the ultimate millennial YouTube highlights player.

And that's before his 'virus' personality: he took the club for a free ride on his journey towards La Liga, doesn't want to be here at all, and has only quietened down after Madrid informed his agent they didn't want him this summer.

All of this has been pointed out ad nauseam by media pundits, fans and opposition supporters. But I'm sure his cult fans will offer excuses for all the points I made above, probably via a youtube highlights VDO.
Well said Sir.
You may find that a number of his followers are from France.
As to Steven Gerrard, Pogba is a very pale shadow and has nothing like the same mental and physical attributes.
Gerrard was a true leader in every aspect of the game.
 

JPRouve

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Well said Sir.
You may find that a number of his followers are from France.
As to Steven Gerrard, Pogba is a very pale shadow and has nothing like the same mental and physical attributes.
Gerrard was a true leader in every aspect of the game.
Nice.
 

Handré1990

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My honest opinion is he's not the player people believed him to be from the Youtube clips. The disappointment is totally self inflicted from not being truly aware of how he is as a player. He's really no different to how he was at Juve, apart from he's not surrounded by quality players now, which shock horror has had an impact on him.

I could be completely wrong, but I see people talk about a Pogba that's never really existed, its not really his fault he's not the player people wrongly thought he was.

I'm not disappointed by Pogba, he's had some truly awful performances for us that have enraged me and made me livid, but overall if he left tomorrow, I'd be more annoyed at the fact we've never made the most of him, and had him back at the club when we've been a total shit show.
This is really on point. The last paragraph captures my feelings on the situation exactly.
 

romufc

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Add that to his inability to play across the midfield; his fanboys tell us that to see his genius, he has to play left of a midfield 3 with XY player supporting behind, alongside and in front.
He played as a CAM under Ole last season and produced good numbers.

Played Left mid under Conte at Juve and produced numbers

Played alonside Kante in a 2 for France and is sucessful

The theory he can't play in a 2 midfield is something made up by the fans. Clearly Jose, France and Ole prefer him there suggests he can play there.

Pogba's gets his 1 in 10 attempt right, it's propagated as genius across social media. Paul Pogba really is the ultimate millennial YouTube highlights player.
1 in 10? Yeah sure.. but 7/10 of those attempts are passes that no other midfielder would even attempt because they just don't have that vision. He tries these because he knows the team is struggling.

And that's before his 'virus' personality
What suggests he is a virus? because he is a big player? because he is on social media? Nothing from Ole, players themselves or even coaches suggests that. Infact everyone says the opposite about him.

The theory he is a virus is you reading the media too much.

I agree that he has not accomplished enough at United but you cannot say it was his plan to to La Liga or Real from day dot.

He signed for Manchester United when we were in the Europa League and joined on what the club said was a rebuild.

What happened is the club has not gone forward and is stale.

The reason he wants to leave is he has a special talent and wants to win trophies. He is in his prime and clearly he is not going to be challenging at United.
 

Buster15

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it's also irrelevant but it tells me everything I need to know about you.
So why do you keep responding to my posts.
I have followed a number of your string of posts. They follow a similar pattern. And when someone doesn't agree with you or maintains a different point of view, you resort to insults.
Quite honestly I can have more sensible conversations with my wife and even she doesn't keep on as much as you.
 

JPRouve

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So why do you keep responding to my posts.
I have followed a number of your string of posts. They follow a similar pattern. And when someone doesn't agree with you or maintains a different point of view, you resort to insults.
Quite honestly I can have more sensible conversations with my wife and even she doesn't keep on as much as you.
Where did I insult someone? And since you brought it, did I insult you or anyone in this thread? For no reason you brought nationalities into this thread.
 

OleTheGreat

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Why are you even talking about legends, is that the standard for football players become legends? And which legend didn't move to a great club in order to fullfil its potential or wasn't already in a great team.
In general players move during their career and the main two reasons are to earn more money or be surrounded by better players. So I'm simply wondering where your statement come from what is the reference that you are using.

And Pogba doesn't really have the obvious potential to be a legendary player, so I'm not even sure about using that type of lofty standards for a player that isn't close to be the best of his generation.
I understand what you trying to say but i think he has the potential to put a team together and get results if he gets his mind to it. Like we witnessed him doing during the world cup for France but i don't the same qualities in him when it comes to United. I feel his hearts not here and he should go if that's the case but i still do think he can be a great player. Maybe you're right, he needs support to do that but which player doesn't.
 

JPRouve

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I understand what you trying to say but i think he has the potential to put a team together and get results if he gets his mind to it. Like we witnessed him doing during the world cup for France but i don't the same qualities in him when it comes to United. I feel his hearts not here and he should go if that's the case but i still do think he can be a great player. Maybe you're right, he needs support to do that but which player doesn't.
But Pogba never put a team together and absolutely not put France together. Pogba has limited responsiblities for France, he isn't expected to be the team fulcrum but just one piece out of many. I think that some of you are really overrating him, he has never been the player that you expect and he may never will be.
 

Sandikan

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I wonder who will be back first, between him and the Shaw.
 

Brwned

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Thanks for proving that you always speak up for the Pogba fanboy sycophants. Decent of you, I must say.

I have a lot of 'personality characteristics' in common with Pogba, I think he's a decent man. But thats neither here nor there. My commentary on him is purely as an employee of the club I support. He's an over rated footballer who doesn't give 2 shits about my club: that's pretty indisputable, even for a sycophant like you.

You only ever pop up and spout 'Pogba's da best' when he delivers one Hollywood pass against some cannon fodder: happens about every 2 months, (when he's not injured). Beyond that, every word above is hyperactive, over intellectualised self righteous claptrap, and none of which can be substantiated with any evidence. Really, its just a few new fancy words to make the same old excuses for Pogba.

As usual but sadly not that often, I expect you to tag me next time Pogba delivers his 1 in 15 game worldie against Crewe Alexander, proclaiming his generational genius. Question I want answered is why you disappear with the tags in the 14 games in between?
I don't intend to persuade you that you're wrong about Pogba, because as I see it you've created that unfalsifiable position. However I can prove that you're wrong about my attitude to Pogba, because it's perfectly easy to find the evidence. Here you'll find me on the other end of a discussion with what you'd call a "Pogba fanboy sycophant", saying a number of things you'd agree with. He's no Roy Keane, his head wasn't in it, and he attracts more criticism than someone like Matic because of his talent and status. Immediately before that I called him embarrassing. So a) I conclusively don't always "speak up" for people you stick in that category, and b) I don't only ever pop and spout "Pogba's da best".

You've got this idea that I have a one dimensional view on Pogba, because you have a one dimensional view on Pogba. And because the handful of times we've discussed him I've held an opposing view, you've just categorised me as being in the opposite end to you, equally far from the centre. That's just not the reality, man. I really don't care about Pogba. I never have. He's the most fun footballer we have in the team, and also the most frustrating. I care much more about the former than the latter. I'm not one of those people that spends hours, days or weeks after a bad game stewing over it - I barely think about the game soon after it's finished. So the joy Pogba brings in the games when he's on form, which on the whole is more often than not, is much more important to me than the games where he's totally lost. Except in the big games, where I think he still has a significant issue. So I'll be very disappointed when he leaves, but can see the positives that could come from it to (losing the media circus, having more flexibility and possibly reliability in the midfield).

My view on Pogba contains plenty of positives and negatives. It might be full of contradictions - feel free to judge, as you seem so keen to do on this subject - but it conclusively isn't the one note view you've imagined. I think Pogba has the chance of being as good as Bobby Charlton, who's up there with the most graceful, influential midfielders to play the game, and I also think we should expect him to be more consistent. He's been pretty shit in finals, but in his most recent one - and quite a big one, it's fair to say - I thought he was the MOTM. I think he could be better than Keane, Scholes, Vieira, Gerrard and Lampard, but he clearly has a long way to go and he's far more immature than they were. I think Pogba's got one of the most impressive passing ranges ever seen in a United player, but he can't dictate play like the "simple destroyer" Keane could.

As far as I know, I've only ever tagged you once - and I'm surprised if you think his performances and productivity last year didn't warrant an update to your evaluation of him. For me, he clearly established himself as one of the best players in the league, even with his embarrassing response to the Mourinho drama. When Pogba got two assists against Chelsea, one of which highlighted how easily he can cut through a team, I didn't come in here tagging you. I didn't come in here talking about him at all, based on a quick search. So that would be why I didn't tag you then - regardless of whether Pogba was doing great things or terrible things over his 140-game career with United, I generally didn't tag you. But in your own mind, I was on some relentless journey to prove to you how good Pogba is, or how right the sycophants are, or any number of other weird things.

Don't you see why that's weird?

I legitimately don't even know what Pogba has done in the last month, on any level, and you've come to the conclusion that I've now forgiven him for what he's done, and fallen in line with the other Pogba fanboys. I honestly have no idea what that line is, what he's supposed to have done to require an explanation / excuse, or what the subject of that explanation / excuse was. I find what footballers say off the pitch, and the narrative built around it, mind-numbingly boring. But for whatever reason it seems easier for you to think something entirely different. Each to their own, really. I thought you deserved a response but I think it's a pretty boring discussion, truth be told. I'd rather just watch the footy.
 

OleTheGreat

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I don't intend to persuade you that you're wrong about Pogba, because as I see it you've created that unfalsifiable position. However I can prove that you're wrong about my attitude to Pogba, because it's perfectly easy to find the evidence. Here you'll find me on the other end of a discussion with what you'd call a "Pogba fanboy sycophant", saying a number of things you'd agree with. He's no Roy Keane, his head wasn't in it, and he attracts more criticism than someone like Matic because of his talent and status. Immediately before that I called him embarrassing. So a) I conclusively don't always "speak up" for people you stick in that category, and b) I don't only ever pop and spout "Pogba's da best".

You've got this idea that I have a one dimensional view on Pogba, because you have a one dimensional view on Pogba. And because the handful of times we've discussed him I've held an opposing view, you've just categorised me as being in the opposite end to you, equally far from the centre. That's just not the reality, man. I really don't care about Pogba. I never have. He's the most fun footballer we have in the team, and also the most frustrating. I care much more about the former than the latter. I'm not one of those people that spends hours, days or weeks after a bad game stewing over it - I barely think about the game soon after it's finished. So the joy Pogba brings in the games when he's on form, which on the whole is more often than not, is much more important to me than the games where he's totally lost. Except in the big games, where I think he still has a significant issue. So I'll be very disappointed when he leaves, but can see the positives that could come from it to (losing the media circus, having more flexibility and possibly reliability in the midfield).

My view on Pogba contains plenty of positives and negatives. It might be full of contradictions - feel free to judge, as you seem so keen to do on this subject - but it conclusively isn't the one note view you've imagined. I think Pogba has the chance of being as good as Bobby Charlton, who's up there with the most graceful, influential midfielders to play the game, and I also think we should expect him to be more consistent. He's been pretty shit in finals, but in his most recent one - and quite a big one, it's fair to say - I thought he was the MOTM. I think he could be better than Keane, Scholes, Vieira, Gerrard and Lampard, but he clearly has a long way to go and he's far more immature than they were. I think Pogba's got one of the most impressive passing ranges ever seen in a United player, but he can't dictate play like the "simple destroyer" Keane could.

As far as I know, I've only ever tagged you once - and I'm surprised if you think his performances and productivity last year didn't warrant an update to your evaluation of him. For me, he clearly established himself as one of the best players in the league, even with his embarrassing response to the Mourinho drama. When Pogba got two assists against Chelsea, one of which highlighted how easily he can cut through a team, I didn't come in here tagging you. I didn't come in here talking about him at all, based on a quick search. So that would be why I didn't tag you then - regardless of whether Pogba was doing great things or terrible things over his 140-game career with United, I generally didn't tag you. But in your own mind, I was on some relentless journey to prove to you how good Pogba is, or how right the sycophants are, or any number of other weird things.

Don't you see why that's weird?

I legitimately don't even know what Pogba has done in the last month, on any level, and you've come to the conclusion that I've now forgiven him for what he's done, and fallen in line with the other Pogba fanboys. I honestly have no idea what that line is, what he's supposed to have done to require an explanation / excuse, or what the subject of that explanation / excuse was. I find what footballers say off the pitch, and the narrative built around it, mind-numbingly boring. But for whatever reason it seems easier for you to think something entirely different. Each to their own, really. I thought you deserved a response but I think it's a pretty boring discussion, truth be told. I'd rather just watch the footy.
Wow! I cannot believe you went on to talk so much about Pogba just because somebody said you are a sycophant. You need to chill, i am also part of the group which thinks Pogba has great potential and a chance to win many trophies for us and i also believe that if his heart isn't here, he can go and that would be a plus for us as well but i wouldn't still blame him. As a player you would obviously want to be part of a club that can potentially win trophies everything and there is nothing bigger than winning in any sport. If he wants to move back to Juve or Real, i should think that's his decision but i wouldn't say he's a useless player because he's leaving instead i'd be sad because we couldn't make it work.
 

Tincanalley

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Holy cow, the tone of posts in here! Be gentle, folks. We know feck all. Pogba, meh.
 

No eye dear

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Pogba is a very good player in a very good team, he doesn't seem to be a player who can lift an average team which we are at the moment.
If he leaves, I won't be too sorry, the money could be used well elsewhere but he will have my best wishes
 

Mr PG

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Pogba will be amazing on Spain or Italy where he will have a huge physical and athletic advantage that will allow him to display his technical skills to maximum effect.
Him leaving would make us a better team of Ole is given his transfer to spend.... like Liverpool selling Coutinho and reinvesting the proceeds in Van Dijk and Allison.
 

JB08

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I mean, he came back at 23 years old as the most expensive transfer of all time. He went to Juve for a pittance aged 19, with no real experience of senior ootball. I don’t see how the two are comparable whatsoever. Of course his stats are going to be better here, he practically came here while in his prime.
 

AkaAkuma

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I'd really like to see us not bend to the will of Pogba and Madrid. I don't care if he never reaches his potential, at the worst he could just be an inconsistently good player.

I don't think we gain anything by selling him. We can buy creativity in addition to him.