Is Pogba as good as gone?

[VP89]

This Liverpool comparison again. Everyone seems to want to be exactly like Liverpool. We don't have the flair from fullbacks to get away with having as boring CMs as they do IMO. Functional is important but so is technical brilliance. So whether it's a dLP, number or AM, I do think having that excellence in midfield is important.

It's not a comparison just an example.

You don't need the best player to have a great midfield. Functional engines are best, so long as they are direct and energetic.

 

[VP89]

Pretty much. It's as if people don't realize that we would have to replace around 5 players and that our other CMs aren't actually that functional or consistent either.

Both Fred and McTominay are functional and consistent imo.

 

[kopviolator]

Complete myth that he’s a virus or bad influence within the club.

I don't get it. He openly comes out and says he wold like a fresh challenge elsewhere rather than taking on the humongous challenge we have here. His agent is pursuing options he may have elsewhere. How does that translate to good influence in your opinion? I agree there is not way to get dramatic by calling him a virus or a cancer and I'm sure he's acting professional but come on...

 

[VP89]

I don't get it. He openly comes out and says he wold like a fresh challenge elsewhere rather than taking on the humongous challenge we have here. His agent is pursuing options he may have elsewhere. How does that translate to good influence in your opinion? I agree there is not way to get dramatic by calling him a virus or a cancer and I'm sure he's acting professional but come on...

He's definately unsettling because he wants out but I don't think he's been unprofessional in his quest to leave (assuming the injuries are genuine which let's face it, it looks like they are).

He said he wanted a challenge but didn't do much else beyond that. He turned up for training and gave it his all, and he hasn't fallen out with anyone. I think he should put a muzzle on Raiola but that's all.

 

[kopviolator]

He's definately unsettling because he wants out but I don't think he's been unprofessional in his quest to leave (assuming the injuries are genuine which let's face it, it looks like they are).

He said he wanted a challenge but didn't do much else beyond that. He turned up for training and gave it his all, and he hasn't fallen out with anyone. I think he should put a muzzle on Raiola but that's all.

I agree with you. I was reacting to the statement that he's not a bad influence within the club. I think the circus that surrounds him is a terrible influence. Personally I would get rid of anyone associated with Raiola, beginning with Lingard of course.

 

[roonster09]

It's not a comparison just an example.

You don't need the best player to have a great midfield. Functional engines are best, so long as they are direct and energetic.

You need goal threats, Liverpool having defensively good CMs and not that good at attacking is heavily compensated by FBs who contributes to around 20-25 goals in league alone. Compare that to what we have and it's easy to see why we need technically good CMs who are good at creating chances.

 

[romufc]

It's not a comparison just an example.

You don't need the best player to have a great midfield. Functional engines are best, so long as they are direct and energetic.

Liverpool found a way that suits them, we need to find a way that suits us. We have good defensive full backs, we are not changing them so we should try and have attacking midfielders to cover for the lack of creativity.

When was the last time we saw a RW at United? Nani? Di Maria ? but he was only 1 season.

We need to find our solution, most teams who are successful know their first team. We know our back 5 that's it. I want us to go into next season to have a our midfield and forward line done.

 

[VP89]

You need goal threats, Liverpool having defensively good CMs and not that good at attacking is heavily compensated by FBs who contributes to around 20-25 goals in league alone. Compare that to what we have and it's easy to see why we need technically good CMs who are good at creating chances.

Yes, but why can't functional midfielders do this too? If we played Bruno Fred McTominay, I think the problem in the team would be less them and more the fact that our front 3 just aren't that good.

You'd be surprised how much better we looked if we had players of the ilk of Salah Mane and Firminho ahead of them 3 instead of whoever is turn up on the pitch for us right now.

Saying we need midfield creativity akin to Pogba is just making more excuses for how bad our front 3 are, either because they aren't that good (likely 60% this) and/or how bad the coaching is (40% this).

 

[JPRouve]

Both Fred and McTominay are functional and consistent imo.

Both are subpar inconsistent players. And I didn't count them in the 5 players, we would need two new attackers, one actual top level CM and two creative fullbacks. You could also add a goalkeeper that isn't afraid of sweeping behind his defense.

Edit: That's without counting the addition of Klopp because no one else will organize his team similarly.

 

[roonster09]

Yes, but why can't functional midfielders do this too? If we played Bruno Fred McTominay, I think the problem in the team would be less them and more the fact that our front 3 just aren't that good.

You'd be surprised how much better we looked if we had players of the ilk of Salah Mane and Firminho ahead of them 3 instead of whoever is turn up on the pitch for us right now.

Saying we need midfield creativity akin to Pogba is just making more excuses for how bad our front 3 are, either because they aren't that good (likely 60% this) and/or how bad the coaching is (40% this).

I'm not getting your point. So we don't need Pogba, have to replace whole front 3, we might also need better FBs and only players have to retain is the 3 players you mentioned?

So we don't have players who are as good as Salah, Mane, Firmino. So instead of using players like Pogba who is very good at creating chances, we have to replace front 3 and rely on players who won't create chances.

Also Liverpool forwards won't be as effective without good FBs too, so in total we have to replace 5 players just to accommodate "functional" players.

We should make use of what we have and build on that, instead of scrapping everything and trying to copy someone else who have perfect players to play their system.

 

[JJ12]

Hopefully puts on a masterclass in Europa final - bump his price up and gets us CL football.

Best case scenario.

 

[pascell]

Since he joined the club (from 2016-17 to 2018-19 season) only Delli Alli and David Silva have contributed to more goals than Pogba (only CM and AM are considered*) but somehow he has not done anything of note in PL.

They all played most games as AM whereas Pogba played most games in midfield and in midfield 2.

* games where they played as CM/AM are considered, for example any games where Eriksen or Ozil played as wingers won't be considered in filter condition.

KdB stats would have been even better but he was injured for almost whole 2018-19 season.

Players	G+A	Games	Total Mins
Dele Alli	52​	85​	7290​
David Silva	46​	83​	7055​
Paul Pogba	44​	87​	7592​
Kevin De Bruyne	43​	62​	5302​
Mesut Özil	30​	67​	5805​
Christian Eriksen	24​	64​	5663​
Luka Milivojevic	23​	73​	6481​
Gylfi Sigurdsson	22​	35​	3008​
Aaron Ramsey	20​	35​	2811​
Georginio Wijnaldum	19​	65​	5579​
Eden Hazard	18​	28​	2302​
Ilkay Gündogan	18​	47​	3928​
Abdoulaye Doucouré	17​	71​	6351​
Manuel Lanzini	17​	43​	3581​

De Bruyne 1 goal/assist behind with 25 games less, 43 goal/assist contributions in 62 is very, very impressive.

 

[Smores]

He's definately unsettling because he wants out but I don't think he's been unprofessional in his quest to leave (assuming the injuries are genuine which let's face it, it looks like they are).

He said he wanted a challenge but didn't do much else beyond that. He turned up for training and gave it his all, and he hasn't fallen out with anyone. I think he should put a muzzle on Raiola but that's all.

It's still a bad influence when your best player publically makes it known he wants out. It'll put doubts in our own players minds and it isn't a great look for the club when trying to attain other top talent.

That's not some deep analysis or anything it's just what happens at all clubs in the same situation and why they inevitably let the player go. It's annoying that real tried to low ball us as I'm sure we'd have sold for a decent fee.

 

[roonster09]

De Bruyne 1 goal/assist behind with 25 games less, 43 goal/assist contributions in 62 is very, very impressive.

Yeah, his record is as usual brilliant.

 

[Hammondo]

Both Fred and McTominay are functional and consistent imo.

Im looking forward to seeing those 2 with Bruno.

 

[JPRouve]

De Bruyne 1 goal/assist behind with 25 games less, 43 goal/assist contributions in 62 is very, very impressive.

He is amazing but to me the key point here is that De Bruyne and Silva each play with an other great playmaker, their presence allow more space and time for the other because the defense can't focus on just one. And that's only from center midfield.

 

[VP89]

I'm not getting your point. So we don't need Pogba, have to replace whole front 3, we might also need better FBs and only players have to retain is the 3 players you mentioned?

So we don't have players who are as good as Salah, Mane, Firmino. So instead of using players like Pogba who is very good at creating chances, we have to replace front 3 and rely on players who won't create chances.

Also Liverpool forwards won't be as effective without good FBs too, so in total we have to replace 5 players just to accommodate "functional" players.

We should make use of what we have and build on that, instead of scrapping everything and trying to copy someone else who have perfect players to play their system.

We never needed Pogba. You know what my view is on this already, that Pogba as a midfielder has a bigger responsibility than just sitting there to create chances. My view was always that his money should have gone towards 2-3 great functional players that make us as a unit look better.

What we need is to sell him, given he doesn't want to stay, and use a bulk of that money towards improving our front line (Werner/Sancho/any other big talent for the front 3). In terms of replacing him from a midfield perspective, I'd rather see us get an Ndidi sort of player.

Our full backs are fine, a big part of why they are inconsistent is because they are being coached terribly. Wan Bissaka was far better going forward for Palace, and we can see he has a couple great deliveries in him as soon as Ole pushed him further up against say, Wolves. Its difficult for fullbacks to shine when Wan Bissaka has no one infront of him.

 

[wolvored]

I agree, but we need to ask ourselves why he want to put himself in the shop window so much, why he is disinterested, and why he wanted to go so much last summer as well, we are the problem, not him.

Like Lukaku people will be getting themselves excited about the fee we will get, and convince themselves we are the winners, but it will just be a continuation of us disappearing into the abyss, whilst Pogba and his new club reap all the benefits.

I just don't see an upside for us at all.

He wants to leave and quite rightly imo as well, as we no longer challenge for the big 2 trophies. He is one of the biggest players on the world stage a World Cup winner and when he looks at other players of the same ilk challenging for titles or Champions League he knows he is wasting away here. Hes nearly 27 and knows now he is in his peak years and has to make the most of the next 4-5 years and wants to play for a club with a realistic chance of winning titles and Champions League. Imagine yourself as a World Cup winner 27 and playing for AC Milan. A team you never supported as a kid. A sleeping giant, but no chance of competing for the big prizes. A novice manager going nowhere fast. Wouldnt you want to leave?

 

[Hammondo]

We never needed Pogba. You know what my view is on this already, that Pogba as a midfielder has a bigger responsibility than just sitting there to create chances. My view was always that his money should have gone towards 2-3 great functional players that make us as a unit look better.

What we need is to sell him, given he doesn't want to stay, and use a bulk of that money towards improving our front line (Werner/Sancho/any other big talent for the front 3). In terms of replacing him from a midfield perspective, I'd rather see us get an Ndidi sort of player.

Our full backs are fine, a big part of why they are inconsistent is because they are being coached terribly. Wan Bissaka was far better going forward for Palace, and we can see he has a couple great deliveries in him as soon as Ole pushed him further up against say, Wolves. Its difficult for fullbacks to shine when Wan Bissaka has no one infront of him.

No one will buy him.

 

[VP89]

Both are subpar inconsistent players. And I didn't count them in the 5 players, we would need two new attackers, one actual top level CM and two creative fullbacks. You could also add a goalkeeper that isn't afraid of sweeping behind his defense.

Edit: That's without counting the addition of Klopp because no one else will organize his team similarly.

Your bias is hilarious if you think those players have been subpar and inconsistent and yet Pogba is historically immune to criticism in pretty much 95% of your posts. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[roonster09]

We never needed Pogba. You know what my view is on this already, that Pogba as a midfielder has a bigger responsibility than just sitting there to create chances. My view was always that his money should have gone towards 2-3 great functional players that make us as a unit look better.

What we need is to sell him, given he doesn't want to stay, and use a bulk of that money towards improving our front line (Werner/Sancho/any other big talent for the front 3). In terms of replacing him from a midfield perspective, I'd rather see us get an Ndidi sort of player.

Our full backs are fine, a big part of why they are inconsistent is because they are being coached terribly. Wan Bissaka was far better going forward for Palace, and we can see he has a couple great deliveries in him as soon as Ole pushed him further up against say, Wolves. Its difficult for fullbacks to shine when Wan Bissaka has no one infront of him.

Pogba has bigger responsibilities and he does most of that. Midfielders have bigger responsibilities than being a work horse and putting in tackles. They should be able to pass the ball, switch the point of attack, distribute both short and long and then create chances, line breaking passes.

I would rather have Pogba in the team and sign 1 more good CM, RW than replacing whole team.

 

[wolvored]

Yes, but why can't functional midfielders do this too? If we played Bruno Fred McTominay, I think the problem in the team would be less them and more the fact that our front 3 just aren't that good.

You'd be surprised how much better we looked if we had players of the ilk of Salah Mane and Firminho ahead of them 3 instead of whoever is turn up on the pitch for us right now.

Saying we need midfield creativity akin to Pogba is just making more excuses for how bad our front 3 are, either because they aren't that good (likely 60% this) and/or how bad the coaching is (40% this).

Exactly. We have Rashford and any 2 of Liverpools front 3 would have us easily in the top 4 at least, but neither Martial or James are good enough to be regular starters and miss too many chances. Greenwood can be as good as Rashford imo, but is still too raw to be a regular starter.

 

[VP89]

Pogba has bigger responsibilities and he does most of that. Midfielders have bigger responsibilities than being a work horse and putting in tackles. They should be able to pass the ball, switch the point of attack, distribute both short and long and then create chances, line breaking passes.

I would rather have Pogba in the team and sign 1 more good CM, RW than replacing whole team.

No he doesn't. He literally turned up for 3 months last season and then sporadically had a good game here and there. He has been massively inconsistent for us. For all those great performances he's has his Huddersfield appearance or the 4-0 to Everton appearance, or Palace this season.

And honestly speaking, Bruno Fred and McTominay are capable of sharing the roles you mentioned between them.

 

[JPRouve]

Your bias is hilarious if you think those players have been subpar and inconsistent and yet Pogba is historically immune to criticism in pretty much 95% of your posts. Let's just agree to disagree.

Stop talking nonsense, my criticism of Pogba have been made way before his signing and I didn't want us to go after him in the first place. My issue with people is how they decided to rewrite his history with us based on their inability to judge him at Juventus and realize that he wasn't a good fit for us or "the best midfielder in the world". People overrate him and then judge him based on their own failure.

I said it multiple times, Pogba isn't essential for us and if we can sell him for a good chunk of money and then retool the team then I'm fine with that. What I'm against is the idea tha t he has been shit or worse than he should have, he hasn't actually been different than he was for France or Juventus. I'm also against the idea that players that have been inconsistent and done very little for this football club are somehow better or guaranteed to become consistently good.

Edit: And something that people need to keep in mind someone like McTominay doesn't have a full season as a starter under his belt and like every other player in this team, he has been inconsistent this season.

 

[The Boy]

He absolutely stank out the joint in the first half of that match against City.

Great post, Pogba scores twice wins the Derby for you, but of course he was shit in the first half!

 

[VP89]

Stop talking nonsense, my criticism of Pogba have been made way before his signing and I didn't want us to go after him in the first place. My issue with people is how they decided to rewrite his history with us based on their inability to judge him at Juventus and realize that he wasn't a good fit for us or "the best midfielder in the world". People overrate him and then judge him based on their own failure.

I said it multiple times, Pogba isn't essential for us and if we can sell him for a good chunk of money and then retool the team then I'm fine with that. What I'm against is the idea tha t he has been shit or worse than he should have, he hasn't actually been different than he was for France or Juventus. I'm also against the idea that players that have been inconsistent and done very little for this football club are somehow better or guaranteed to become consistently good.

OK, I apologse for the accusation of bias, but surely you'd agree Pogba himself has been subpar?

 

[roonster09]

Your bias is hilarious

No he doesn't. He literally turned up for 3 months last season and then sporadically had a good game here and there. He has been massively inconsistent for us. For all those great performances he's has his Huddersfield appearance or the 4-0 to Everton appearance, or Palace this season.

And honestly speaking, Bruno Fred and McTominay are capable of sharing the roles you mentioned between them.

And you accuse someone of bias. It's funny that you admitted that you don't like Pogba but somehow believe your posts are objective ones and others are biased ones.

He started the season well and only player who at least looked like football player against Juventus, played well in Chelsea away and saved Jose's job when there was rumor that he was getting sacked.

So 3 players will share the role that somehow people expected from Pogba alone.

Bruno will create chances, no one can pass more than 10 yards, Fred will win the tackles, McT will dribble past players and Pogba was expected to do all that just because Manutd broke transfer record to sign him.

 

[JPRouve]

OK, I apologse for the accusation of bias, but surely you'd agree Pogba himself has been subpar?

No, I don't and the caf doesn't either, we actually have the grades. I think that some people overrated him in the first place and it was obvious in his transfer thread, those people are now disappointed but Pogba has done what I personally expected, he has been one of our best player every seasons but without a strong balanced team around him, he is wasted. It was the same thing with France before 2016.

 

[roonster09]

No, I don't and the caf doesn't either, we actually have the grades. I think that some people overrated him in the first place and it was obvious in his transfer thread, those people are now disappointed but Pogba has done what I personally expected, he has been one of our best player every seasons but without a strong balanced team around him, he is wasted. It was the same thing with France before 2016.

When you see some of the posts, the answers are "for a world record fee he should be match winner". It doesn't matter what position he is playing, he should score and assist every game just because we broke transfer record.

 

[Rozay]

He absolutely stank out the joint in the first half of that match against City.

What does that even matter tbh? Seen that mentioned a few times, and I can’t remember, but since when did we start breaking performances down by how a player does by the minute now? For anyone with remote objectivity, it was obviously a great game for Pogba. United were overrun in that first half.

 

[JPRouve]

@VP89 To be totally honest, my issue with signing Pogba wasn't Pogba himself but the fee because for me he was worth around half of it but I do like the player and his ability to influence a game out of nowhere. Here you an example of what I think and thought about him in 2016.

Pogba influences games by doing something exceptional, he doesn't influence games with his general play, for some reason people pretend that he does the latter. If your team isn't functional Pogba won't help you much.

He is overrated, a lot of people think that he is the perfect midfielder, some even said that he was arguably the best all round midfielder in the world, which he isn't. Pogba is a good player with great potential.

 

[VP89]

And you accuse someone of bias. It's funny that you admitted that you don't like Pogba but somehow believe your posts are objective ones and others are biased ones.

He started the season well and only player who at least looked like football player against Juventus, played well in Chelsea away and saved Jose's job when there was rumor that he was getting sacked.

So 3 players will share the role that somehow people expected from Pogba alone.

Bruno will create chances, no one can pass more than 10 yards, Fred will win the tackles, McT will dribble past players and Pogba was expected to do all that just because Manutd broke transfer record to sign him.

Wait, where did I say I "don't like Pogba"?

And which other months did he actually turn up in outside of Dec-Feb last season? I'm curious. He was pretty shite before Ole (infact he was dropped for a few games). Then he turned broadly ineffective again around Feb time to seasons end.

That's not bias. It's speaking objectively. Some people just see the Dec to Jan hype and fall for representative bias as though he's been fantastic all season.

 

[Hammondo]

Pogba has bigger responsibilities and he does most of that. Midfielders have bigger responsibilities than being a work horse and putting in tackles. They should be able to pass the ball, switch the point of attack, distribute both short and long and then create chances, line breaking passes.

I would rather have Pogba in the team and sign 1 more good CM, RW than replacing whole team.

He doesn't do some of the biggest and most important jobs of a CM. He needs to be an AM simply so we can get someone else in to do the jobs he does not do.

 

[JPRouve]

Wait, where did I say I "don't like Pogba"?

And which other months did he actually turn up in outside of Dec-Feb last season? I'm curious. He was pretty shite before Ole (infact he was dropped for a few games). Then he turned broadly ineffective again around Feb time to seasons end.

That's not bias. It's speaking objectively. Some people just see the Dec to Jan hype and fall for representative bias as though he's been fantastic all season.

Pogba and Shaw were by far our best performers from August to late October.

 

[roonster09]

He doesn't do some of the biggest and most important jobs of a CM. He needs to be an AM simply so we can get someone else in to do the jobs he does not do.

What is the biggest and most important job?

Btw not all CMs play same role. That's why its a team game and team with right balance wins most games.

 

[The Original]

I don't get it. He openly comes out and says he wold like a fresh challenge elsewhere rather than taking on the humongous challenge we have here. His agent is pursuing options he may have elsewhere. How does that translate to good influence in your opinion? I agree there is not way to get dramatic by calling him a virus or a cancer and I'm sure he's acting professional but come on...

De Gea did exactly the same and no one came out and called him a virus. Why is there a double standard?

 

[roonster09]

Wait, where did I say I "don't like Pogba"?

And which other months did he actually turn up in outside of Dec-Feb last season? I'm curious. He was pretty shite before Ole (infact he was dropped for a few games). Then he turned broadly ineffective again around Feb time to seasons end.

That's not bias. It's speaking objectively. Some people just see the Dec to Jan hype and fall for representative bias as though he's been fantastic all season.

He started the season well and then Jose had issues with him when he said we should attack more. He wasn't shit before Ole, he just went few levels higher for couple of months.

He was ineffective again as he was dropped deeper to control the game which ended up poorly.

When he doesnt score or assist, it's ineffective game. It's like people expect attacker like numbers from him every game.

 

[Hammondo]

What is the biggest and most important job?

Btw not all CMs play same role. That's why its a team game and team with right balance wins most games.

Alright yes that's true, but his role when there is a DM behind him and an AM in front of him, is to control the game more than anything. Like Xavi. He couldn't run a raffle.

 

[JPRouve]

Alright yes that's true, but his role when there is a DM behind him and an AM in front of him, is to control the game more than anything. Like Xavi. He couldn't run a raffle.

Pogba has never been a player taht controls the game, so how can it be his role? Not all midfielders are Xavi like, most aren't.

 

[roonster09]

Alright yes that's true, but his role when there is a DM behind him and an AM in front of him, is to control the game more than anything. Like Xavi. He couldn't run a raffle.

No, that's not his role. When you play defensive counter attacking football, you don't control the game. You just wait for the opportunity to hit them on the break.

And who decided that controlling the game is his role? I have not seen anyone blaming Kante for not creating chances or controlling the game, I haven't seen anyone blaming Modric for not contributing to goals.

Midfield is all about balance. You have Pogba who is very good at creating chances, play long passes and take on players, you need complimenting players who can do other roles. Thats where we have failed as a team. There is no balance in the midfield and overall team.