Is Sterling the best english player at the moment?

Maluco

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I still think Kane is a better footballer, to answer the thread title. He has a great range of passing, as well as being a clinical finisher. His agility looks to be on the decline though. Sterling has such good movement and is so quick and agile, it’s a tough call.

I think Kane would be filling his boots in a team like City, probably close to what Aguero is putting up when fit and playing.
 

1966

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I think one thing you can add is the 'quality' of chances/shots a player like Sterling has at City compared to your other players.

It's not quantifiable (or is it with those XgFtabclolbbq!11 +/- stats?) but that's the point a few are trying to make when they're trying to judge his effectiveness.
Yeah. The following isn't all necessarily aimed at you (more the thread in general) but you've accurately represented the basic thrust of my perspective and here I'm going to expand on it.

Measuring "clinicalness" in a quantitative way remains very difficult, even more so if you want to be objective about it. In fact, I'd argue that it's an intractable problem, almost by definition. But some ways are clearly better than others.

If you require determinism from your football statistics - I don't think there's a convincing justification for that but if it's just one's subjective preference, fair enough - then goals/shots ratio is the best metric you can get using easily accessible data. But for any sample size upwards of about half a season of matches, G/xG kicks the shit out of G/S using any modern xG model (which are getting better all the time as feature selection is refined). As I've said before in this thread, G/xG is the gold standard measure of clinical finishing for any sample size large enough to smash the margin of error inherent in derived/stochastic models (half a season, as above, is a conservative estimate of the required data; you can probably make accurate predictions from far fewer games).

Personally, I derive all my conclusions with respect to "clinicalness" from G/xG ratios (since those are, as I say, the best numerical estimates we have available to us). If G/xG ratios from the last six seasons are taken a step further (beyond what's available to most people) and the question becomes "whose record is least likely to belong to an average player?", the only finisher in the world more clinical than Harry Kane is Messi (hence I always use Kane as my default epitome of clinical striking in talking about, especially, the PL). (I can't explain p-values and everything else involved in the validity of the question/conclusion because I'd have to somehow give a university stats lecture - with lots of prerequisites - in a forum post! The important thing is that G/xG itself is not hard to understand: read as "the ratio between the number of goals a player scored and the number of goals they were expected to score" [this reading has the clear benefit of illustrating exactly why G/xG is the gold standard in the first place].)

Regardless of whatever post-hoc manipulation you perform on G/xG, Kane still comes out as one of the 3 or 4 most clinical finishers on the planet. Although not close to surpassing Kane overall, players like Vardy, Salah etc. are also elite finishers who typically outperform their xGs significantly (hence my constant use of them as examples of other excellent finishers).

G/xG produces results that surprise a lot of people, even when they shouldn't be surprising. For example, I don't really think it should be surprising that Aguero isn't actually that clinical (none of City's forwards are). If Aguero, playing for a team that has oscillated between dominant and terrifyingly dominant while breaking team goal records, still only has the same overall GPG as Kane, playing for a good side that has never been close to dominant, why wouldn't Kane come out to be much more clinical than Aguero? That's common sense to me.

Other titans of the game like Lewa and CR7 are also not particularly clinical. Last season, Lewa had one of the worst G/xGs I've ever seen from a top-tier striker. Those guys have never really had to be clinical, and they can still score bags while not being clinical. That's the difference the quality of your team makes: fecking enormous, and G/xG is the only stat that very obviously discriminates between a great finisher and a finisher with a high volume of easy chances. The only titan of the game who lives up to his reputation in these objective terms is Messi (and Kane, if you count him -- I'd argue that if one's counting Lewa, Kane should be there too).

In most years, Sterling glances his xG (and thus has a negative, i.e. <1, G/xG ratio overall). He never significantly outperforms it. The best fitting interpretation of his xG data is that given the quality of chances he gets, he scores about as many goals as you would expect a professional footballer to score. (Nonetheless, it's not a huge deal: his G/xG is 0.97 but Aguero's is only something like 1.04 so the difference is hardly chasmic -- for reference, Kane's is approximately 1.20.)

As you say, this is what people like me are suggesting about Sterling: that his raw finishing ability when he has the ball in a shooting position is just mediocre. I'm not trying to suggest anything else on top of that, however, and would distance myself from his more general critics. I think he's a great player overall -- albeit one with important flaws, including his finishing, which neither looks good statistically nor passes the eye test (IMO). I think the eye test (which, even despite my advocacy for stats and objectivity, I still regard as the single most important factor) corroborates the picture created by G/xG: you never see Sterling score - or even look like scoring - the kind of screamers that would match up well against Kane's best goals.

I find myself being misrepresented on here too often. I've never said that Sterling wasn't/isn't a great player. I merely contribute most to the discussion of his finishing ability, which may seem like a focus on his flaws and therefore seem like criticism. In reality, finishing is just the part of football that interests me the most, and the part on which I have related expertise to share that few others will offer in comparable depth.
 
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Eddy_JukeZ

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I still think Kane is a better footballer, to answer the thread title. He has a great range of passing, as well as being a clinical finisher. His agility looks to be on the decline though. Sterling has such good movement and is so quick and agile, it’s a tough call.

I think Kane would be filling his boots in a team like City, probably close to what Aguero is putting up when fit and playing.
Kane would probably be better than Aguero.

Though I think Kane has declined the past year or so.
 

1966

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Kane would probably be better than Aguero.

Though I think Kane has declined the past year or so.
No doubt about it in my mind. Kane in that City team would be challenging the PL record for most goals in a season every season.

Kane hasn't declined so much as he hasn't had the chance to fully recover from injury and develop full match fitness for a very, very long time. A big problem has been that Spurs need him and have no backup (as is widely known), so Kane's been getting repeatedly put back to work earlier than he ideally should've. It all took its toll until he looked like a shell of himself out on the pitch.

I said months ago that the coronavirus break may well save (or have saved, now) Kane's career, by giving him time to not only fully recover but to get up to speed again at an appropriate pace. Despite the gruelling post-restart fixture schedule, Kane was looking fitter at the very end of the season than he has in probably two years (suggesting that he needed this break and the time to build up match fitness, and also that he can still play football requiring elite fitness going forward).

He's had a dip but he's far from finished or even in decline as far as I'm concerned. He was never the right player if you needed someone to consistently win foot races.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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No doubt about it in my mind. Kane in that City team would be challenging the PL record for most goals in a season every season.

Kane hasn't declined so much as he hasn't had the chance to fully recover from injury and develop full match fitness for a very, very long time. A big problem has been that Spurs need him and have no backup (as is widely known), so Kane's been getting repeatedly put back to work earlier than he ideally should've. It all took its toll until he looked like a shell of himself out on the pitch.

I said months ago that the coronavirus break may well save (or have saved, now) Kane's career, by giving him time to not only fully recover but to get up to speed again at an appropriate pace. Despite the gruelling post-restart fixture schedule, Kane was looking fitter at the very end of the season than he has in probably two years (suggesting that he needed this break and the time to build up match fitness, and also that he can still play football requiring elite fitness going forward).

He's had a dip but he's far from finished or even in decline as far as I'm concerned.
Fair points.

I am surprised he's still at Spurs(though Levy isn't easy to deal with).

I don't think he'll move anywhere now. No team will have the $$$ to afford him.
 

1966

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Fair points.

I am surprised he's still at Spurs(though Levy isn't easy to deal with).

I don't think he'll move anywhere now. No team will have the $$$ to afford him.
I don't know if I'm surprised or not. My feelings on the matter are conflicted. I posted about it elsewhere:

On a completely unrelated general note, this is a difficult topic for me. I started watching Spurs religiously because of how much I love Kane (my only real team, as such, is England), and I've developed a soft spot for the club over the last six years. But ultimately I want Kane to have the career his talent deserves more than I want Spurs to win something. If they happen to coincide, fecking fantastic, but there's only one winner in my mind if those two priorities conflict.

I hope Kane doesn't give Spurs too many more of his peak years if there aren't real signs of very significant improvement in the near future. He's just too good to end his career without a single trophy, unless he wants to go for the oddly distinguished honour of being the greatest player of all time never to win anything, which he undoubtedly would be if he did go trophyless until the very end.
Basically, Kane is too good not to be winning trophies. And, as fond of Spurs as I've become, he's too good for that Spurs squad as well. I'd like to see him move if Spurs don't show significant ambition and improvement during this coming season. As for where, I'm not too sure. Somewhere he'll be appreciated (e.g. not RM) and surrounded by quality to match his own (which is realistically only about 6-8 teams in the world).

He'll only have two years left on his contract at that point, and if he explicitly requested a transfer, I don't think Spurs would be quite as successful at holding him hostage as some people believe.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I don't know if I'm surprised or not. My feelings on the matter are conflicted. I posted about it elsewhere:



Basically, Kane is too good not to be winning trophies. And, as fond of Spurs as I've become, he's too good for that Spurs squad as well. I'd like to see him move if Spurs don't show significant ambition and improvement during this coming season. As for where, I'm not too sure. Somewhere he'll be appreciated (e.g. not RM) and surrounded by quality to match his own (which is realistically only about 6-8 teams in the world).

He'll only have two years left on his contract at that point, and if he explicitly requested a transfer, I don't think Spurs would be quite as successful at holding him hostage as some people believe.
I'm not even sure where he'd go though?

Real and Barcelona don't need him.

I think Woodward would have been all over Kane before Martial's progression this season(though I highly doubt Levy would sell Kane to a Prem team).

Doubt any Serie A team have the $$$ to afford Kane. Bayern don't need him.
 

1966

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I'm not even sure where he'd go though?

Real and Barcelona don't need him.

I think Woodward would have been all over Kane before Martial's progression this season(though I highly doubt Levy would sell Kane to a Prem team).

Doubt any Serie A team have the $$$ to afford Kane. Bayern don't need him.
That's the £150m question.

I'm not sure either. I could see him moving to another PL club. Obviously Arsenal would be off-limits (and would be a sideways move anyway) and I think he'd prefer not to go to a London rival (though he might consider Chelsea, I suppose).

My guess would be one of the Manchester clubs. He wants those PL records and both clubs could afford him. City could 100% use him as Aguero's replacement. Kane's already better as far as I'm concerned (and has been for the overwhelming majority of the last six years), and the gap between them is likely to get bigger as Aguero continues down the slope of age. Aguero would be 33 by the earliest possible opportunity for the transfer and Kane would still be a peak 27.

Who do you support? Would you take Kane if he manages to get himself on the market for a reasonable price? (Let's say 100m, which I think is very reasonable for IMO the best striker in the world. If he stayed injury free this season, I think even clubs that don't really "need" Kane, like RM or Barca, would go in for him at that price.)
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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That's the £150m question.

I'm not sure either. I could see him moving to another PL club. Obviously Arsenal would be off-limits (and would be a sideways move anyway) and I think he'd prefer not to go to a London rival (though he might consider Chelsea, I suppose).

My guess would be one of the Manchester clubs. He wants those PL records and both clubs could afford him. City could 100% use him as Aguero's replacement. Kane's already better as far as I'm concerned (and has been for the overwhelming majority of the last six years), and the gap between them is likely to get bigger as Aguero continues down the slope of age. Aguero would be 33 by the earliest possible opportunity for the transfer and Kane would still be a peak 27.

Who do you support? Would you take Kane if he manages to get himself on the market for a reasonable price? (Let's say 100m, which I think is very reasonable for IMO the best striker in the world. If he stayed injury free this season, I think even clubs that don't really "need" Kane, like RM or Barca, would go in for him at that price.)
I root for Manchester United mate.

I don't know if I'd want Kane now. I would have 2 years ago.

I think our team has more pressing needs. I'd rather spend 100m on Sancho than Kane.
 

Carlsen19

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I have never met a player quite like him. Scores bucketloads but you can always count on him to miss an absolute sitter every game.
 

SilentWitness

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Is everyone forgetting his work for their first goal?

Awful miss but at least he's contributed tonight compared to others who have shrunk this evening.
 

Raees

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Is everyone forgetting his work for their first goal?

Awful miss but at least he's contributed tonight compared to others who have shrunk this evening.
You know you can still be a good player without being a good finisher as well as being a good goalscorer without being one of the most clinical players in the world?
 

Bwuk

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I dread to think what this forum would look like if Rashford missed that
 

dbs235

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Was planning on posting how good he'd been tonight and then 2 minutes later he does that....
 

VorZakone

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I'm still amazed by that miss. The stakes were sky high, it would have been the equalizer.
 

Fortitude

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Going to be a massive test of his character and constitution, this. Can easily blame himself for City going out.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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If there's 1 player in world football with quality you'd back to blow that chance, I think everyone would pick Sterling.

Shocking miss.