Is the diamond formation the answer after all?

[Dolf]

I know that many of you don't like diamond because we supposedly don't have the fullbacks for it or because it's not the united way, or because it would never work in the Premier League. However, in my opinion it would be the easiest and cheapest way of making a team with Pogba work.

Pogba

Pogba is a creative mastermind but the past has shown that he doesn't always feel like defending and he can be seen 'jogging' around on numerous occasions. If we want to keep him, and I think we should, then we need to adapt our midfield to him. The past has shown that he needs reliable defensive players in his back to do the dirty work for him.

Fullbacks

The argument that we don't have the fullbacks for it might be true, but I still think it will be easier to train Shaw, Dalot and Meunier for this system than it would be to train Pogba to play consistently well in a midfield 3. Shaw is only 23 years old and he is getting fitter every day. I truly believe he has it in him to cover the entire left flank. Dalot is still young and he needs to work on his defending which is why we need a new fullback until he is ready. Meunier is a realistic and not too expensive option. At 27 years old he is exactly the right age and he has the experience to slot right in.

Defensive midfielder

We desperately need a defensive midfielder. Every top team has someone to do the dirty work and get the ball to the attack. Look at the following teams and their defensive midfielder:

Chelsea - Kanté
Real Madrid - Casemiro
Manchester City - Fernandinho
FC Barcelona - Rakitic / De Jong
Juventus - Matuidi
PSG - Verratti
Liverpool - Fabinho
Ajax - De Jong

And what do we have? Matic. And Herrera who might leave.

To fix this we should go for one of Partey, Ndombele or Ndidi. These might not be spectacular names but they are realistic options (except Partey) and they all are specialist in working hard and getting the ball back.

Transfer #3

Bruno Fernandes would be a brilliant signing because it would add more creativity and also give us someone for free kicks and corners, which we have been terrible at.
He's someone who can drive the team and someone who would sprint back to help defend when needed.
Put him in front of the midfield 3 to help connect midfield and attack.

The strikers

I still believe in Lukaku because he has proven himself in the Premier League and has the strength and presence of a top striker. Mix that with a fast and nimble striker like Martial and you have the perfect combo. Martial has said in the past that he would like to play as a striker and this system gives him that opportunity. If needed Martial can fall to the left and Lukaku to the right as they have already shown they can play well from the flanks. We would also have a left footed striker in Lukaku and a right footed in Martial. All in all a perfect combo if you ask me. They would get plenty of supply from Pogba and Bruno, plus some crosses from the fullbacks.

Attack

When attacking it would look something like this.
The front 3 + Pogba could attack in a fluid way where Martial could start from the left, leaving space for Bruno to go in who could in turn link up with Pogba creating a triangle. Ofcourse this is only one of many possible situations but in the end it comes down to the fact that it's a fluid front 4.

Defending
To prevent counters we have our defensive mid as a fail-safe, which is why he should be someone with great stamina and workrate. He is in charge of intercepting and distributing the ball as quickly as possible. If that fails, we fall back to the formation below where we form a block of 3 in front of the defenders. Our defensive mid prevents shots from outside the box while Bruno puts pressure on whoever has the ball. When we regain possession we can either go for a quick counter via Bruno --> Martial/Lukaku or go for build-up by passing it back to the def mid.

The costs

Solskjaer has said before that he doesn't expect more than 4 or 5 signings. For this system to work we only need 3 signings and since they aren't the most expensive either it would leave room for a new CB.

Bruno - €50 - €85 million
Defensive Mid - €50 - €85 million
Meunier - €30 - €45 million

Total: €135 - 215 million but realistically it will be close to 150 than to 215.

This would mean we could also buy Alderweireld or really splash out for a top CB.

Conclusion

The real conclusion is that this thread is way longer than I wanted but here we are...
Personally I think that this system is one of many options but if we want to make full use of Pogba this or a back 5 would work best.
We get 3 players in 3 positions we currently lack a good player in for a reasonable amount of money. Worst case scenario it doesn't work and you can still use those players. Plus, atleast in this system the players actually play in their positions instead of playing Lingard or Mata as a RW.

I'm not saying we should use the diamond, i'm just curious what you guys think.

 

[MikeKing]

If we do what you propose here and next season ends up selling Pogba, we'll again have a very unbalanced side with random players in random positions not fitting into standard formations, which we realistically will be playing most of the time.

 

[charlenefan]

I don't think the diamond in suited to week in week out in the PL, especially in the games where teams park the bus 10 men behind the ball and you need width and flair from those wide positions

 

[FerociousCorgis]

Good teams force you to defend across the backline. Would be imperative fullbacks play as essentially wingers or else would just be basic to defend against with how narrow we could end up.

 

[noodlehair]

We've looked awful nearly every time we've used this system, as has Pogba.

Also you don't build a team around someone who turns up for 2 months of each season.

I can't get my head round why people still think building a team around Pogba isn't a stupid idea. Concentrate on building a team full stop ab d we might get somewhere.

 

[STYLOISRED]

If we do what you propose here and next season ends up selling Pogba, we'll again have a very unbalanced side with random players in random positions not fitting into standard formations, which we realistically will be playing most of the time.

I disagree. i feel this system not only gets the best out of Pogba but also isn't heavily reliant on him as we could move Fred to the left, Bruno to the right and play someone like Lingard in the hole.
Also, if we look at our younsters coming up, we have Scott who has shown he can be reliable cover in central midfield and loves to play on the front foot. we also have Gomes whose less imposing profile can be catered for by the other Midfielders. he is currently being groomed by Butt to play central as well as attacking midfield so he can become backup to Pogba, Greenwood who i feel will get even more involved next season will also shine as this system doesnt require a target man and involves fluidity in attack which suits him.

 

[André Dominguez]

The narrow diamond formation is one of the most difficult ones to implement, simply because it is very difficult to properly instruct the midfielders, since now you have a lot of players who can override each other on the pitch.

Now troubles:
this formation requires fullbacks with high technical and passing skills, because they are the one who will give us width and they can't really afford to misplace many passes.

Other difficulty of this formation is that you need to prepare your team to play against opposition that effectively use fullbacks overlap, because if the team is not properly drilled against this strategy, you are going to be ripped apart against a 4x3x3 / 4x2x3x1 / etc well drilled team.
This happens because once the opposition fullback has the ball, you really need to define who has to close him down or follow him down the flank.

Instructing one of the forwards to close one of the corridors is the best solution, but that guy will get exhausted really fast, unless he has tons of stamina. In Jose Mourinho's Porto 4x1x3x2, they used Derlei to close one of the corridors and usually worked pretty well because Derlei could run tirelessly all game.

If you use one of the midfielders to close the full backs, that means one of the forwards will need to help on the midfield battle, so our midfield won't get outnumbered. But this solution might be more risky since you can get more exposed to the counter.

The defensive midfielder and the offensive midfielder are the key players of this formation. They need to be very disciplined to keep the team as a unit.

I really like the narrow diamond / 4x1x3x2 system, because if you have the right players for it, this system is extremely flexible in the way you can quickly adjust to your opponent's strategies, gives you enough presence on the last 1/3 of the pitch and you have a very solid midfield presence.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Rashford/Martial - - Greenwood/Bale

Sancho​

Shaw - Pogba - Fernandes - Wan Bissaka

Rice
​

Ake or De ligt - Lindelof
​

This is how I want to see the diamond formation.

A player like Rice drops in to the 2 CB's creating a back 3 on the defence & shaw and Wan bissaka get a level of freedom to attack. The wingbacks are defensive minded wingers who start out wide on the pitch but drop back to create a back 5 but leave a back 3 on the attack which can also turn on to a back 4 as the wingback only needs to drop back on the side in which the attack comes.

Rice provides the CDM cover to enable two attack minded CM to play together & there's no need for a midfielder who does the dirty work and transitioning of the ball.

Much like Rice drops from CDM ( the bottom tip of the diamond) to create a back 3 - the top tip of the diamond - Sancho plays centrally but takes the ball out in to the wide positions to turn the front two in to a front 3 with Sancho providing crosses to the strikers who subsequently find them centrally.

A diamond with a false CB & a False 9.
. @deafepl

 

[Jib]

Funny how it isn't the best system for Pogba but some people claim that if you want to build around him, we should play like that...

 

[Dolf]

We've looked awful nearly every time we've used this system, as has Pogba.

Also you don't build a team around someone who turns up for 2 months of each season.

I can't get my head round why people still think building a team around Pogba isn't a stupid idea. Concentrate on building a team full stop ab d we might get somewhere.

Well the point of this system is to get the best out of him so he shows up consistently. We've already tried so many things but we just can't seem to get the 'jogging' casual kind of thing out of him. At Juventus he had players to do the dirty work for him in his back. He excelled, we bought him and then didn't give him the same kind of midfield.

I disagree. i feel this system not only gets the best out of Pogba but also isn't heavily reliant on him as we could move Fred to the left, Bruno to the right and play someone like Lingard in the hole.
Also, if we look at our younsters coming up, we have Scott who has shown he can be reliable cover in central midfield and loves to play on the front foot. we also have Gomes whose less imposing profile can be catered for by the other Midfielders. he is currently being groomed by Butt to play central as well as attacking midfield so he can become backup to Pogba, Greenwood who i feel will get even more involved next season will also shine as this system doesnt require a target man and involves fluidity in attack which suits him.

Exactly. Pogba would be easy to replace and if you buy the players I listed in OP you can also easily switch systems and still make use of your new players.

 

[LiamMillerBC]

If we do what you propose here and next season ends up selling Pogba, we'll again have a very unbalanced side with random players in random positions not fitting into standard formations, which we realistically will be playing most of the time.

This this so much this. It seems like that’s been our issue the last 5 years, trying to find one key player to fit the puzzle. United needs to build a new culture with new players. Re build takes time but this club has the passionate supporters required .

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Why do people think Pogba needs a specific system? I don’t get where that idea comes from.
He needs better team mates, much better. That is all.

 

[Pavl3n]

It's a good system.

I disagree that it will be hard to break teams down. Actually the opposite.

You are playing with two strikers, you have 2 FB delivering crosses and 3 midfielders on the edge of the box. The full backs would have a lot to aim at, the midfielders could play balls in the corridors between full backs and center halves and also try long shots.
However if the defending team bypasses the high press we would be very exposed to counter attacks.

But right now we don't have the personnel to employ that system. Lingard is not good enough for the 10 role, Rashford is not that dangerous in the box, we have no right back and I'm not convinced on Fred. Also, McT is not experienced enough to cover the DM role.

We still could pull it off, but we won't be optimal in this system.

 

[The UTD Way]

I’ll always come back to top class wingers...I know teams have wingers cutting in all of the time now which can be effective, but the sheer danger of a left footed or right footed winger on their correct side of the pitch beating a man has been lost. Stretch teams to each byline and create more space in the middle, always the way I was bought up and think it’s been lost a little in the modern game.

 

[el3mel]

At this point you should be starting to think our problem is bigger than just choosing the formation.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Whatever the formation, if we put all our players in those Arsenal kits from the OP and send them to London, that's a damn good answer.

 

[STYLOISRED]

It's a good system.

I disagree that it will be hard to break teams down. Actually the opposite.

You are playing with two strikers, you have 2 FB delivering crosses and 3 midfielders on the edge of the box. The full backs would have a lot to aim at, the midfielders could play balls in the corridors between full backs and center halves and also try long shots.
However if the defending team bypasses the high press we would be very exposed to counter attacks.

But right now we don't have the personnel to employ that system. Lingard is not good enough for the 10 role, Rashford is not that dangerous in the box, we have no right back and I'm not convinced on Fred. Also, McT is not experienced enough to cover the DM role.

We still could pull it off, but we won't be optimal in this system.

Which is why an imposing CB who knows how to command his backline and play on the front is a must. Also,The I agree Lingard is not good enough to be a starter in the hole. Prime Mata would have been perfect but alas, i would take Dybala on a cut price Juve beat us to Joao Felix's signature because I believe he would shine playing between two strikers who work the channels and drag the opposition defenders. he is excellent at finding space in the opposition area and has very good finishing. Even this season which hasn't been his best stats wise, his has shown intent and workrate.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I like using the wings more and high press which is not as easy with this system. Attacking fullbacks could get more space to use potentially and there could be some nice combinations in the center. Having two forwards can certainly help in terms of creating chances on both counters and from crossing.

 

[sparx99]

I’ve felt that the way our squad is constructed this is our best option.

Personally I’ve liked McTominays performances as holding midfielder as he has the stamina for it as well as height and will get stronger.

I’d prefer Felix as our no 10 and then Bruno alongside Pogba.

 

[MadMike]

I got two questions:
1) Why are we wearing Arsenal kits? and
2) If diamond is the answer, what is the question?

 

[sparx99]

If you look at the way City play then there is often shades of a diamond formation. Sterling tucks in and plays off of Aguero in lopsided kind of front two. Then when Bernardo plays from the wing he drifts into the hole with walker overlapping.

Sane is so effective as a sub as he suddenly comes on to stretch defences wide.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Why do people think Pogba needs a specific system? I don’t get where that idea comes from.
He needs better team mates, much better. That is all.

This. The world cup showed he can play a more conservative roll very well provided his team mates are good too.

Regarding a diamond: Our full-backs are awful going forward. I like Shaw but he's limited in attack and if the new right back is Wan Bissaka he's also limited going forward.

 

[Pavl3n]

Which is why an imposing CB who knows how to command his backline and play on the front is a must. Also,The I agree Lingard is not good enough to be a starter in the hole. Prime Mata would have been perfect but alas, i would take Dybala on a cut price Juve beat us to Joao Felix's signature because I believe he would shine playing between two strikers who work the channels and drag the opposition defenders. he is excellent at finding space in the opposition area and has very good finishing. Even this season which hasn't been his best stats wise, his has shown intent and workrate.

Whether is Felix, Dybala or even Coutinho, someone with vision, agility and technical ability is instrumental for that system.

We have players for that position, but no one ticks all the boxes.

 

[STYLOISRED]

Whether is Felix, Dybala or even Coutinho, someone with vision, agility and technical ability is instrumental for that system.

We have players for that position, but no one ticks all the boxes.

Dybala fits the bill perfectly for me. vision, agility and technique plus the tenacity to go with it.
And i have seen enough of Dalot to know that if he improves his defending, he is going to be one hell of a player- he is strong, agile, and a very good crosser and dribbler.

 

[kouroux]

We've looked awful nearly every time we've used this system, as has Pogba.

Also you don't build a team around someone who turns up for 2 months of each season.

I can't get my head round why people still think building a team around Pogba isn't a stupid idea. Concentrate on building a team full stop ab d we might get somewhere.

That is what I have been saying for years. Pogba has never been the type of players to warrant such a setup but he can shine on a fully functionning team.

 

[Florida Man]

Pogba is so world class, he not only needs world class midfielders around him but he needs a specific system

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

We've done pretty well with a diamond, especially when setting up on the counter, but I like wingers. Of course it's something we lack at the moment, but the so called 'United Way' that Ole keeps talking about is built on wingers.

Next season I want to see wingers beating players and getting the crowd on the edge of their seats.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Pogba is so world class, he not only needs world class midfielders around him but he needs a specific system

Well not really because he performs perfectly well in a 4231 for France. Performed perfectly fine in a 3142, 442 diamond and flat 442 at Juventus.

Fact is, we haven't got the quality the teams above have got and Pogba has hardly any help in the creative department.

 

[VP89]

Pogba is so world class, he not only needs world class midfielders around him but he needs a specific system

I see your card and I raise you the "He's our most talented player" argument

 

[Casanova85]

I got two questions:
1) Why are we wearing Arsenal kits? and
2) If diamond is the answer, what is the question?

1) Because these days Utd are Top4 strugglers like post-2006 Arsenal.
2) How many new Top Players we must buy?

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Ole is already using this system a fair number of times this season, with Lingard at #10.

Did Pogba played his best in all of the games?
Nope, some games yes, some no.

Personally, diamond formation is my fav. With the proper specific settings and player-determinant roles, it'll work wonders.

Anyway, formation is not the problem. Any players can work in any formation, I think the settings of that formation eg. specific roles and overall team play like team press or strategic team movement, etc etc, are far more important. How well a player can do specific roles, and then there's the chemistry among players, and team balance that need to be considered. All make up a system.

Formation is just a simple template.
Shit settings will ruin the formation.
Players matching roles can amplify it, and the opposite will ruin it.

Anyhow, This isn't Pogba United.
And Pogba can excel in any formation with the proper settings, doesn't need diamond to play his best.

Also, I think some of you guys are giving Pogba too much of the prince treatment, he's not Prince Pogba at United...
...and seems like you guys are underestimating his capabilities -- he's actually that good and can do any midfield roles if required.

The only qs is -- is he professional enough to seriously try to do it and play for the team and for the shirt and not only when he feels like doing it even if he dislike the roles?
Not a problem with France isn't it, him playing more like a deep-lying playmaker with clear defensive and holding roles + license to attack at specific opportunities.
He sure can hold and defend well alright, playing for his team, and we see him try to do it consistently.

So it's fine for France, but special royalty treatment need to be given for him at United?

 

[Florida Man]

Well not really because he performs perfectly well in a 4231 for France. Performed perfectly fine in a 3142, 442 diamond and flat 442 at Juventus.

Fact is, we haven't got the quality the teams above have got and Pogba has hardly any help in the creative department.

I’ll take your word for it. I’m merely amazed at the comments about how a top talent midfielder needs a specific system in addition to the already known thought that he needs super talented midfielders around him doing all the hard work. People are literally making the case that he’s a luxury player. The guy’s good, but he’s not for us and I’ve learned to accept that. Others should too. We need players who are not only talented, but can be relied upon to be good no matter what.

 

[prateik]

4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 is the best one for me..

2 deep midfielders.. a 10 with 2 wingers and a striker.

 

[Tarrou]

why do people keep going on about this? does it work on FM or something?

 

[ErranMorad]

The answer is having a definite style of play. How we press, pass between the lines, our creativity, our industry, our commitment in defense and attack are much more important. Formations are secondary to that. Most of the time they are fluid in a game and change as per the in game situation.

 

[In Rainbows]

I’ll take your word for it. I’m merely amazed at the comments about how a top talent midfielder needs a specific system in addition to the already known thought that he needs super talented midfielders around him doing all the hard work. People are literally making the case that he’s a luxury player. The guy’s good, but he’s not for us and I’ve learned to accept that. Others should too. We need players who are not only talented, but can be relied upon to be good no matter what.

Who is that though? Who doesn't need other great players around them? 2013 Bale and Messi?

 

[haram]

The answer is sign better players.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I thought the diamond 4-4-2 would be the way to go, but from seeing Ole use it on several occassions I have since changed my mind. We lack width. We need to play with wingers. And I'm sorry, but Pogba is holding us back. What good is having a midfielder if he can only play in certain formations? I would like to see a 4-2-3-1. traditional 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. Pogba only fits in the 4-3-3. Sorry, but it's time to cash in on him...

 

[caid]

442 diamond is basically a 352 which we've been playing for weeks. It has its uses but it isn't a solution to ... whatever your suggesting? (magically fixing pogba? the entire club?).

 

[Invictus]

I'm not saying we should use the diamond, i'm just curious what you guys think.

I prefer a diamond with a deep-lying playmaker or midfield sweeper instead of the archetypal defensive midfielder because it gives you better control over proceedings and allows you to be more proactive, especially in a team like United that is not particularly accomplished on the ball in the defensive-third (and has struggled in the department since the decline/retirement of Carrick).

Even if we think back to some of the best midfield diamonds over the years, the likes of Redondo and Pirlo (or indeed Guardiola in Cruyff's diamond 3-4-3 with Carlos/Eusebio/Bakero) excelled in similar quarterback roles where they were difficult to mark unless the opposition manager instructed a midfield spare or the #10 to follow them around — and flanked by a central/attacking midfield hybrids who could peel wider (Pogba was quite good in this role at Juventus), and maybe a high-workrate terrier who can disrupt the opposition and win balls for the #6 to recycle — they were perfectly capable of playing teams off the park by controlling the ball (and consequently the general direction of the game).

Spoiler

Young midfielders shouldn't be thrust into critical roles, and prodigious performers like Fàbregas are few and far between, but Tonali is a special talent as a holding midfielder or deep-lying playmaker (and arguably the best central midfielder Italy has produced since Verratti), and would be a good addition in the summer, IMO — bringing an expansive range of passing to a team that can struggle with defense-midfield transitions.

Quite combative, too — frequently compared with Pirlo, and while there are some similarities, he plays with a physical edge to his game like Torreira or Neves (which would suit the style of the Premier League). From your formation graphic, Tonali would occupy this position and frequently drop between the centerbacks to facilitate the vertical/diagonal movement of the ball...

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/player-analysis/sandro-tonali-brescia-tactical-analysis

Spoiler: Obligatory Youtube video