Is this one of the worst PL seasons in recent times?

Eddy_JukeZ

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The quality of the teams subjectively, the way everyone is taking points off everyone. Other leagues don't even have a "top six", let alone have teams like Leicester, wolves and Sheffield who can mix it up with them.
Perhaps, but I don't think Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea and United collectively have ever been worse in the Premier League.

Would say it negates those 3 teams being decent/good and making the overall league quality poor.

And there's still some dross sides towards the bottom(like every season).
 

Eckers99

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We're still close to the top 4 despite having one of the worst United teams in modern times. That's how bad it is.

Plus, the fact that a Liverpool team with a midfield of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho could win the Champions League shows that the lack of quality isn't limited to England.

There are no great sides but the scousers will be called one by virtue of being the best of a very mediocre bunch.
 

B20

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Perhaps, but I don't think Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea and United collectively have ever been worse in the Premier League.

Would say it negates those 3 teams being decent/good and making the overall league quality poor.

And there's still some dross sides towards the bottom(like every season).
My original point was that the top six outside of Liverpool and City are poor and the teams below them as good as ever. So what is the disagreement?
 

B20

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We're now at a point where just the fact that we win stuff means not only the league but all of Europe is an all time low. Rodger that.
 

PickledRed

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We're now at a point where just the fact that we win stuff means not only the league but all of Europe is an all time low. Rodger that.
The world is going through a transition right now...Liverpool are filling the void.
 

Pexbo

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The quality of the teams subjectively, the way everyone is taking points off everyone. Other leagues don't even have a "top six", let alone have teams like Leicester, wolves and Sheffield who can mix it up with them.
The fact everyone is taking points off everyone else shows how weak it is, not how strong it is. If you go below the Top 3 or 4 it's an absolute quagmire of mediocrity, United, Tottenham and Arsenal included in that. Looking at the bottom 10 teams in the league this season and it's really tough to pick your relegation candidates bar Norwich. Pick any 3 of those teams and put them into any other season and they would be your favourites for relegation.
 

Righteous Steps

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We're still close to the top 4 despite having one of the worst United teams in modern times. That's how bad it is.

Plus, the fact that a Liverpool team with a midfield of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho could win the Champions League shows that the lack of quality isn't limited to England.

There are no great sides but the scousers will be called one by virtue of being the best of a very mediocre bunch.
How does that midfield show there is a lack of quality?

2 of those 3 are top class midfielders in any era.
 

jderbyshire

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Of course is it.

Liverpool are about to win the League for fecks sake!
 

PickledRed

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The fact everyone is taking points off everyone else shows how weak it is, not how strong it is.
I would contend that this is a logical fallacy steeped in confirmation bias. In fact, either can be true.
 

OverratedOpinion

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I have enjoyed loads of games this season. Even last night I thought the Chelsea-Arsenal game was brilliant.
 

Raj70

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All this nonsense about the league being poor because 4 of the other 'big six' sides are weak. Could you enlighten me in what season it was there were 6 strong sides in the league.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Any season without a race at the top is a bad season. You'll always have a couple of teams with the quality to win the league and at least a couple in rebuilding phase.

The blame lies entirely with Guardiola considering the team he has. One can argue that Liverpool is having a blinder of a season but that City squad is no where near a 20 point deficit quality wise. If the difference was 7-8 points or even 10, we'd still have a race and it's not unheard of the gap being covered after Feb.
 

B20

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It's us being really really good that means we can roll over all the lesser teams. We aren't the first to do that either.

It's the top six being poor that means we're anomalously far ahead. We're not impervious to quality sides.

Napoli could beat our press and defend well against us to beat us in Europe.

Chelsea won the midfield battle against us earlier in the season thanks their press resistance and Kante bossing it. Had their been less of a youthful plucky team that should have given them something from it.

City obviously can still go toe to toe with us.

The only league fixture this season where we'll face a team that are favourites to beat us is at the etihad. If the top six were better some of them should be taking points off us, at least away from home.
 

Eckers99

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How does that midfield show there is a lack of quality?

2 of those 3 are top class midfielders in any era.
Individually it's one of the worst midfields to ever win a Champions League. As a unit they're hard to play against but that's more about work rate than quality.
 

B20

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Individually it's one of the worst midfields to ever win a Champions League. As a unit they're hard to play against but that's more about work rate than quality.
This isn't 2016 anymore.

Fabinho is world class, probably the best defensive midfielder in the world. and whilst Wijnaldum and Hendo aren't, they are still very good players having great seasons.

Edit. Also, Owen Hargreaves started the 2008 final. Nicky butt and fecking Jesper Blomqvist the 99 final.
 

JPRouve

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Newcastle, Blackburn, Liverpool, Chelsea and even Leeds never pushed United as a collective group of sides - one off seasons where they would be strong but they weren't all strong at the same time looking to pip United to the title. There seems to be a suggestion that the league is weak because the 'big 6' aren't all doing well.

I do think there is a narrative being developed from certain rivals about a 'weak' league as it's a way of dismissing Liverpool's achievements - not suggesting that is the only motivation.

Liverpool are slotting some good teams but I would argue that's because they are such a complete and balanced side with few weaknesses that has been rarely seen in the PL era.
Strangely enough, I was going to say that Liverpool are genuinely very strong while the rest are weaker than during the PL best seasons. This season feels like some of the years where United were by far the best team and the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal were fighting for second place like in 2001. The league is obviously good but not at its best.
 

PickledRed

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Strangely enough, I was going to say that Liverpool are genuinely very strong while the rest are weaker than during the PL best seasons. This season feels like some of the years where United were by far the best team and the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal were fighting for second place like in 2001. The league is obviously good but not at its best.
Fair enough
 

Rooney in Paris

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2 top posters in this thread so far are scouse fans. Throughout the board, it's impressive how desperate they are to be seen as an all time great side and get defensive anyone suggests otherwise. Just enjoy your league title, you weirdos.
 

Stadjer

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I'd say all three are top class right now. Fabinho, however, has confortably the highest ceiling.
And Henderson confortably the lowest. I am always a bit suprised to see the reaction to Wijnaldum here on this forum. He is a Liverpool player so people almost refuse to accept that he is a very good midfielder but look at how he also performces for our Dutch national team. He really is a great midfielder.
 

Offside

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These things go in circles. One year it might take only 80 points to win the league and another 100. One year it might take 30 points to stay up another 40. The quality of the crap teams fluctuates massively. 2015/16 is a good example where West Ham had a world class player and a Newcastle team which would stay up easily this year went down. Yes this year the quality aside from the top 2 is poor but that could change and come back round within just 2-3 years.
 

B20

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And Henderson confortably the lowest. I am always a bit suprised to see the reaction to Wijnaldum here on this forum. He is a Liverpool player so people almost refuse to accept that he is a very good midfielder but look at how he also performces for our Dutch national team. He really is a great midfielder.
I think Henderson has outperformed him this season.

I know Gini scores goals for your lot, but it is his lack of composure in the final third that stops him from being truly great for me. Everything else is top notch and I don't think you can find a more press resistant midfielder than him anywhere these days.
 

Eckers99

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This isn't 2016 anymore.

Fabinho is world class, probably the best defensive midfielder in the world. and whilst Wijnaldum and Hendo aren't, they are still very good players having great seasons.

Edit. Also, Owen Hargreaves started the 2008 final. Nicky butt and fecking Jesper Blomqvist the 99 final.
You do know that Roy Keane and Paul Scholes were injured in '99? I mean, it's fairly common knowledge. They got cards in the semi against another midfield that was miles better than yours: Conte, Davids and Zidane.

Also Hargreaves played at RB in '08. We had Carrick and Scholes in 08, who were also much better footballers than your current bunch.

You've got a great manager, a solid back 4 and great forward line. You don't need to get testy about your 'willing' midfield 3 lacking quality on the ball.
 

Righteous Steps

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Individually it's one of the worst midfields to ever win a Champions League. As a unit they're hard to play against but that's more about work rate than quality.
Don’t agree, Wijnaldum has been Netherlands best player above De Jong who many on here call a generational player for a reason.

He is a less technical more tactical Seedorf, he has played number 10 8 and 6 all to a high level, he can dribble can score goals has a great touch and close control and never loses the ball, there are a host of midfielders who have won the CL who are worse in quality.

Fabinho is top class full stop.
 

Enigma_87

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Yep, definitely. For the top teams at least.

City are practically without a defensive unit due to injuries and should've reinforced that area before the season started. Arsenal are in transition and already changed managers, Spurs too, whilst Chelsea having a transfer ban and young manager themselves are inconsistent. Can't remember the last time at this stage having 30 odd points leaves you with a good chance of top 4 finish.
 

Righteous Steps

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You do know that Roy Keane and Paul Scholes were injured in '99? I mean, it's fairly common knowledge. They got cards in the semi against another midfield that was miles better than yours: Conte, Davids and Zidane.

Also Hargreaves played at RB in '08. We had Carrick and Scholes in 08, who were also much better footballers than your current bunch.

You've got a great manager, a solid back 4 and great forward line. You don't need to get testy about your 'willing' midfield 3 lacking quality on the ball.
Scholes was injured in 99?

It depends how you define quality, Carrick was a much better passer than Wijnaldum for example, but he couldn’t dribble like him couldn’t score goals like him, and isn’t as press resistant, horses for courses, neither could he tackle like Fabinho, there are different types of midfielders, you can be world class for example with great dribbling and limited passing, same way you can be world class with great passing and limited dribbling, it all depends on the system tactics and how managers get the best out of you.
 

PickledRed

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You do know that Roy Keane and Paul Scholes were injured in '99? I mean, it's fairly common knowledge. They got cards in the semi against another midfield that was miles better than yours: Conte, Davids and Zidane.

Also Hargreaves played at RB in '08. We had Carrick and Scholes in 08, who were also much better footballers than your current bunch.

You've got a great manager, a solid back 4 and great forward line. You don't need to get testy about your 'willing' midfield 3 lacking quality on the ball.
It's not a midfield of gifted craftsmen but what they do is to suffocate the opposition and use the ball smartly. Aesthetically there are better midfields but operationally they are incredible. See the opening 10 minutes of the second half against United on Sunday - the midfield were absolutely crushing it.
 

giorno

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I'd say it's been one of the weirdest rather one of the worst

Spurs and Arsenal got significantly worse, the newly promoted sides are significantly better, and everything else is more or less the same, except for really weird variance that has liverpool keep winning the kind of games they'd normally draw, City keep drawing/losing games they'd normally win, ditto for chelsea, and United are really feeling the lack of WC players, plus De Gea going through a vertiginous cliff(De Gea is a bad goalkeepet right now. Not just no longer an elite one, he's been outright bad this season) in their weird transitional season. All 4 are good sides though. Not much different from last season(in fact United have been better, though given the shitshow with Mou that's not a very high bar to clear)
 

Righteous Steps

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You do know that Roy Keane and Paul Scholes were injured in '99? I mean, it's fairly common knowledge. They got cards in the semi against another midfield that was miles better than yours: Conte, Davids and Zidane.

Also Hargreaves played at RB in '08. We had Carrick and Scholes in 08, who were also much better footballers than your current bunch.

You've got a great manager, a solid back 4 and great forward line. You don't need to get testy about your 'willing' midfield 3 lacking quality on the ball.
Incidentally in that side you mentions midfield only Zidane was an outright technician, the other two were pretty similar to Wijnaldum/Fabinho actually.
 

Eckers99

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Scholes was injured in 99?

It depends how you define quality, Carrick was a much better passer than Wijnaldum for example, but he couldn’t dribble like him couldn’t score goals like him, and isn’t as press resistant, horses for courses, neither could he tackle like Fabinho, there are different types of midfielders, you can be world class for example with great dribbling and limited passing, same way you can be world class with great passing and limited dribbling, it all depends on the system tactics and how managers get the best out of you.
You know what i meant, I qualified it a sentence later.

It's a midfield 3 without a single top class passer of the ball, which is fairly limited in my book. Klopp is a top manager who makes the system function like clock work but, in isolation, I'd struggle to name a less expansive midfield to win the Champions League.
 

Eckers99

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Incidentally in that side you mentions midfield only Zidane was an outright technician, the other two were pretty similar to Wijnaldum/Fabinho actually.
Zidane is a pretty fecking big 'only'!

And Davids was comfortably better than any of your midfielders.
 

giorno

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This whole "football is going through a transition" is skewed by the last decade where Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich managed to be consistently historically great sides. The truth is at no other point in history have we seen 3 teams as great simultaneously. What is happening now is not a transition from normal to poor, but one from unprecedented to normal