Israel - Palestine Discussion

Gehrman

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Oh you mean like the previous thousand years when Jews were a minority and living as one of the best respected minorities in the world?

Either way there would be no Hamas if there wasn't blatant child murdering going on.
Over 160 children have died building tunnels for Hamas. They are the last style of resistance/goverment you want to protect your children.
 

Roane

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When Jews were minorities in these same muslim lands they existed happily, compared to the norms of that time if you consider other minorities throughout the world. For thousands of years they existed so for @Shamana to suggest they'd be wiped out and not a single jew was left is inaccurate but not surprising given his usual complete lack of scholarly knowledge.
There is a very interesting story in Haaretz about the efforts Israel put in to get the 50k Yemeni Jews (unknown tonthe Jewish state at one point) to come to Israel. Also Morocco and other countries. Where Israel literally uprooted people who had lived there for millenia to fulfill a Zionist agenda.

Operation Magic carpet for those interested.

https://www.haaretz.com/life/books/the-frayed-truth-of-operation-magic-carpet-1.5164340

I believe they also airlifted Ethiopian Jews at one point. And then checked them to see if they had been properly circumcised.
 

Raven

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Hamas wouldn't be in certain conversations in the current case if they weren't a convenient excuse for Israel to commit their crimes against the Palestinians.

Also the problem is not talking with Hamas. As I said bring them around the table and put it on them.
Not negotiating with terrorists is literally THE most stupid thing anyone has ever said. Conflicts can be resolved in 1 of 2 ways, dialogue or extermination. Not inviting Hamas to the table is so that people don't develop sympathy for them or their cause.
 

Conor

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Not sure I really understand this line of thinking.

Individuals who've undergone horrific abuse when they're younger are just as able (perhaps even more so) to dish out abuse when they're older as those who didn't.

The modern state of Israel was preceded and succeeded by multiple tragedies meted out to the Jewish people, including one of the worst atrocities humans have ever committed. This comes on a background of a good 2000 years of shoddy treatment by the other two Abrahamic religions.

So while in actuality Israel is a regional military superpower, totally unchallenged by conventional military might by its neighbours, I believe there is still a siege mentality and a fear at the back of minds of some Israelis of this situation.

This is not to again defend Israel in any way (my posts I believe speak for my views) but the fact that a group of people underwent a traumatic event doesn't stop them from unleashing trauma on others, especially if they feel that that trauma is still not totally impossible even now.
I mean it's not exactly rocket science, I personally believe that someone who has been constantly exposed to stories of extreme prejudice and persecution against their people, due to religious beliefs, should be more acutely aware of instances of those actions, when compared to others who haven't. Has this ever stopped people from carrying out violent acts in the past? Of course not. if anything is obvious throughout history, it's that any group of humans can commit heinous acts, if given the right circumstances and power over others.

Given that premise, I really don't think it's too outlandish to suggest that a group of people who's way of life has been hugely shaped by a horrific event, that didn't occur that long ago, should have the self-awareness and presence of mind to be able to step back and recognise when their own people are heading down a bad road, with regards to the treatment of another ethnic/religious group. Certainly, from what I've seen online, and for example from the video of the professor that has been linked multiple times in this thread, there are a lot of Jews out there who are completely aware of this. Not everyone has the ability/upbringing to be able to determine when something is morally wrong straight off the bat; using history, especially recent examples that are relevant to someone is a good way of trying to explain things, particularly if said events would have been used in their lives to draw moral conclusions from before, during education for example.
 

lefty_jakobz

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Not negotiating with terrorists is literally THE most stupid thing anyone has ever said. Conflicts can be resolved in 1 of 2 ways, dialogue or extermination. Not inviting Hamas to the table is so that people don't develop sympathy for them or their cause.
israel doesnt want to negotiate with hamas, its ideal for the occupiers to have the excuse to strip Palestinians of rights, land and life.
 

Raoul

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Not negotiating with terrorists is literally THE most stupid thing anyone has ever said. Conflicts can be resolved in 1 of 2 ways, dialogue or extermination. Not inviting Hamas to the table is so that people don't develop sympathy for them or their cause.
Not negotiating is also byproduct of one or both sides in the conflict believing they have the means to achieve their objectives through violence instead of compromise.
 

Gehrman

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This is just ignorant bullshit to be honest. Can you point to any time in history where Jews have been eradicated en masse at the hands of Muslims simply for being Jews?
There is a reason why I said Israeli jews. I didn't say it happened. Because they lost, it was the rhetoric of the leaders of countries that tried to anihilate Israel in the 1967 war.
 

Raven

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Not negotiating is also byproduct of one or both sides in the conflict believing they have the means to achieve their objectives through violence instead of compromise.
Which would be extermination.
 

Roane

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Not negotiating with terrorists is literally THE most stupid thing anyone has ever said. Conflicts can be resolved in 1 of 2 ways, dialogue or extermination. Not inviting Hamas to the table is so that people don't develop sympathy for them or their cause.
Israel is state sanctioned terrorism so should they be excluded from round the table talks?
 

lefty_jakobz

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This is why I fear that we're headed towards mass extermination.
I think you may be right. Eventually one of the Muslim countries will intervene which will lead to the West getting more involved then we are all fkd
 

Simbo

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Can we stop talking about fecking Hamas? They're an extremist organisation born out of despair. The more bombs that fall on innocents, hospitals and homes, the more members of Hamas there will be. I'm also not convinced they're attacking anything or anyone specifically, they're making home made rockets and firing them into Israel, they don't have B52s or or F16s and can't demolish buildings with sugical accuracy.

I feel like we could genuinely be on the road to death camps and mass extermination, i realise that might sound a little hysterical but I don't ever remember feeling this angry, sad and hopeless as I have over the last few days.
3000 rockets have been fired by hamas in the last week or so, intended to kill, and successfully doing so on both sides of the border (a quarter of them appear to be landing in Gaza killing palestiniens).

There's 10 dead in Isreal and 200+ in Gaza now. If Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket, all these men, women and children would still be alive today. I feel like Hamas should be part of the conversation somehow.
 

africanspur

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When Jews were minorities in these same muslim lands they existed happily, compared to the norms of that time if you consider other minorities throughout the world. For thousands of years they existed so for @Shamana to suggest they'd be wiped out and not a single jew was left is inaccurate but not surprising given his usual complete lack of scholarly knowledge.
I think that's a bit of a stretch. They existed in a better state than Jews did in Christian Europe but did not live anything akin to what we would consider to be equal rights today and I doubt they 'happily' existed. I'm sure you wouldn't want to wear clothes now which marked you out as a Muslim for example or have to pay an extra tax compared to your next door neighbour Bill.

Circumstances have obviously also greatly changed in terms of power in the Middle East and how Arabs and Muslims see themselves compared to the rest of the world.

Do I think the Arabs would actually exterminate the Jews if they had the upper hand? For various reasons, I don't, though you never know the depths of the human mind. It isn't exactly a stretch to imagine why Israeli Jews may be concerned about this though, considering some of the rhetoric which has been used in the past to frame the conflict in the Middle East itself.

@2cents has spoken of the importance of getting both sides to understand andf empathise with each other, if a solution is ever to be found. I can't see how a Palestinian would ever be able to understand the processes that led up to the Nakba, even with the horrible events that preceded it. They can try to understand the feelings before and after though, as well as vica versa.
 

lefty_jakobz

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3000 rockets have been fired by hamas in the last week or so, intended to kill, and successfully doing so on both sides of the border (a quarter of them appear to be landing in Gaza killing palestiniens).

There's 10 dead in Isreal and 200+ in Gaza now. If Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket, all these men, women and children would still be alive today. I feel like Hamas should be part of the conversation somehow.
Hold on...it was the isrealis who started this by the forced evictions, attacking the worshippers in the mosque.
hamas retaliated. israel retaliated.
Both responsible.
But israel started this latest aggression.
 

africanspur

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3000 rockets have been fired by hamas in the last week or so, intended to kill, and successfully doing so on both sides of the border (a quarter of them appear to be landing in Gaza killing palestiniens).

There's 10 dead in Isreal and 200+ in Gaza now. If Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket, all these men, women and children would still be alive today. I feel like Hamas should be part of the conversation somehow.
Hamas should of course be part of the conversation, they're scum in every way.

The issue the Palestinians have though is that in many ways, Israel is killing them by a thousand cuts. Would the world care about the Sheikh Jarrah evictions? Does the world care about the settlements? Does the world care about the house demolitions? Does it care about the horrible circumstances in which West Bank Palestinians live?

I've seen it said that the rockets from Hamas took away from the message of the Sheikh Jarrah evictions. My question is what message? Who apart from the typical hardcore Palestine activists (ie mostly left wingers and Muslims) actually cared or knew about it before this most recent flare up?

The reality is nobody cares.
 

lefty_jakobz

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Hamas should of course be part of the conversation, they're scum in every way.

The issue the Palestinians have though is that in many ways, Israel is killing them by a thousand cuts. Would the world care about the Sheikh Jarrah evictions? Does the world care about the settlements? Does the world care about the house demolitions? Does it care about the horrible circumstances in which West Bank Palestinians live?

I've seen it said that the rockets from Hamas took away from the message of the Sheikh Jarrah evictions. My question is what message? Who apart from the typical hardcore Palestine activists (ie mostly left wingers and Muslims) actually cared or knew about it before this most recent flare up?

The reality is nobody cares.
What youre seeing now is people do care. The narrative has shifted, where before most in the west would side with israel now the Palestinians are getting most support. This time it feels like people are finally waking up to the brutal occupation.
 

JPRouve

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What youre seeing now is people do care. The narrative has shifted, where before most in the west would side with israel now the Palestinians are getting most support. This time it feels like people are finally waking up to the brutal occupation.
People only cared because Hamas launched rockets in retaliation which has led some to wonder what was happening and realized that the israelian government started an other conflict. If Hamas doesn't retaliate most people don't care/know about what Israel does.
 

The Original

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Are you recognizing both sites as sovereign states? Because I don't see that being practiced. In either case, Hamas is labelled a terrorist org. Israel is not accountable for anything. Israel has killed more women and children in a day than Hamas have in what 20 years.
No, I'm not saying that. I would agree with you if I understand your point to be that Israel has a greater responsibility to protect civilian lives. Even at that, any military organization still has responsibilities in the way they conduct hostilities. The fact that hamas doesn't live up to these rules is why it is considered a terror organization and this particular issue is a big problem in my analysis.
 

Mogget

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3000 rockets have been fired by hamas in the last week or so, intended to kill, and successfully doing so on both sides of the border (a quarter of them appear to be landing in Gaza killing palestiniens).

There's 10 dead in Isreal and 200+ in Gaza now. If Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket, all these men, women and children would still be alive today. I feel like Hamas should be part of the conversation somehow.
Because, as we all know, when Hamas aren't firing rockets Israel treat Palestinians with nothing but respect and the utmost care :rolleyes:

How do people peddle this shite?
 

Roane

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I think that's a bit of a stretch. They existed in a better state than Jews did in Christian Europe but did not live anything akin to what we would consider to be equal rights today and I doubt they 'happily' existed. I'm sure you wouldn't want to wear clothes now which marked you out as a Muslim for example or have to pay an extra tax compared to your next door neighbour Bill.

Circumstances have obviously also greatly changed in terms of power in the Middle East and how Arabs and Muslims see themselves compared to the rest of the world.

Do I think the Arabs would actually exterminate the Jews if they had the upper hand? For various reasons, I don't, though you never know the depths of the human mind. It isn't exactly a stretch to imagine why Israeli Jews may be concerned about this though, considering some of the rhetoric which has been used in the past to frame the conflict in the Middle East itself.

@2cents has spoken of the importance of getting both sides to understand andf empathise with each other, if a solution is ever to be found. I can't see how a Palestinian would ever be able to understand the processes that led up to the Nakba, even with the horrible events that preceded it. They can try to understand the feelings before and after though, as well as vica versa.
Speaking as a minority living in UK since the 1970's, about all I can base my experience on, I imagine life would have been similar to mine for any minority, including Jewish folk in some of the Muslim lands.

I have had mainly a good life, with the odd beating in school (race based) the odd beating given and over the years incidents that I feel wouldn't have happened if I was white English. (Input white English as I saw what happened on occasion to Irish etc).

The incidents that have been worse/uncomfortable have been due to things that have occured on a social or political level. So when the NF was around it wasnt always pleasant. When 9/11 happened it was toxic for a while and recently during the run up to Brexit.

I am making the assumption that it would have been similar for Jewish folk living in Muslim lands. It's not right by any stretch, but overall was it same as my own experience? As in mainly good.

I wonder if the creation of Israel made it worse for them? Simply a sort of 9/11 time I witnessed?

All I know is I have a friend of a friend who always said his Gran never forgave the Brits for taking her from Yemen to Israel. She being Yemeni Jewish.
 

Gehrman

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When Jews were minorities in these same muslim lands they existed happily, compared to the norms of that time if you consider other minorities throughout the world. For thousands of years they existed so for @Shamana to suggest they'd be wiped out and not a single jew was left is inaccurate but not surprising given his usual complete lack of scholarly knowledge.
I was talking about Israeli jews post-1948. There was a reason I emphasised Israeli jews and not just jews in general and all of history.
 

Roane

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No, I'm not saying that. I would agree with you if I understand your point to be that Israel has a greater responsibility to protect civilian lives. Even at that, any military organization still has responsibilities in the way they conduct hostilities. The fact that hamas doesn't live up to these rules is why it is considered a terror organization and this particular issue is a big problem in my analysis.
So we accept Hamas is a terrorist organisation because Israel says so? Bit convenient
 

Simbo

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That says something though, doesn't it?
Would people be happier if there were 200+ Israelis dead?
Hold on...it was the isrealis who started this by the forced evictions, attacking the worshippers in the mosque.
hamas retaliated. israel retaliated.
Both responsible.
But israel started this latest aggression.
Are housing evictions enough to justify indescriminate attacks on civilians? Its a grey area.

I find it very difficult to have an opinon on this whole affair, its a conflict that has been going on 70+ years after all, not just one week. Once those rockets start flying however... Israel have to respond, I can't believe anyone wouldn't support their own country doing the same.
 

Raven

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3000 rockets have been fired by hamas in the last week or so, intended to kill, and successfully doing so on both sides of the border (a quarter of them appear to be landing in Gaza killing palestiniens).

There's 10 dead in Isreal and 200+ in Gaza now. If Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket, all these men, women and children would still be alive today. I feel like Hamas should be part of the conversation somehow.
Ah, I'm with you, those dirty Palestinians should just take their ethnic cleansing and shut up. Cool.
 

Roane

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Because, as we all know, when Hamas aren't firing rockets Israel treat Palestinians with nothing but respect and the utmost care :rolleyes:

How do people peddle this shite?
It's all bs to get away from what is the reality of the current conflict. Land grab pure and simple.

Some of the "reasoning" is just made up tripe, whereas those who wish to look can see that Israeli settlers ahve been given legal paperwork to take over some of the Palestinian homes. A legal frameworks that doesn't allow Palestinians to have the same rights.

Hamas is just a convenient method to take away from the actual issues.

I've heard some argue that the attacks were about policing and numbers. Which again is complete rubbish. The 100-200k visitors during Ramadhan has gone on for years. No issue. Israel even built a watch tower recently when it has never been needed. The real reason is that as Ramadhan moves back about 10 days a year it's coincided with Jeruslame day (I think I forget temporarily) and Jewish settlers, specifically right wingers have been causing havoc. Hence the scenes on social media of Jewish gangs intimidating Palestinian worshippers etc. And yeah there has been some fight back but note it hasn't occurred before as there weren't Jewish settlers there due to the days falling seperately.

But yeah Hamas rockets
 

Roane

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Would people be happier if there were 200+ Israelis dead?


Are housing evictions enough to justify indescriminate attacks on civilians? Its a grey area.

I find it very difficult to have an opinon on this whole affair, its a conflict that has been going on 70+ years after all, not just one week. Once those rockets start flying however... Israel have to respond, I can't believe anyone wouldn't support their own country doing the same.
See my above post.

It isn't just about evictions. Walking into a mosque where worshippers are praying and using weopanry and aggressive methods is simply not on.

In this current flair up there is no way Israel shouldn't be seen as the perpetrator
 

The Original

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So we accept Hamas is a terrorist organisation because Israel says so? Bit convenient
Not necessarily because Israel says so. I think you would honestly find that the majority of the world apart from Iran says so. This includes even its regional neighbors.

But ignore all of that and ask, what is a terror group anyway? The defining feature thereof is the use of violence directed at civilian populations.

I don't think it even matters. The point for me is compliance with international humanitarian law which is compulsory for everyone from terror groups to UN peacekeepers.
 

Roane

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My worry is that Iran gets directly involved.
Can't see that myself tbh.

A little known fact about Iran is it used the same method as Israel within Syria. As in placement of Shia muslims there similarly to Israeli/Zionist methods in likes of Yemen.

It's always been a view that Israel has secretly helped Iran during the Iran Iraq war, especially when Saddam went in with his planes. At the time Iran didn't have the arsenal to stop the planes and I believe there have been pictures released of Israeli weapons and operators using ground to air missiles to take out the planes. Iraq should have taken over Iran once it used the planes.


Then again a lot of this is reported in mainly Sunni countries so who knows
 

Raven

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Not necessarily because Israel says so. I think you would honestly find that the majority of the world apart from Iran says so. This includes even its regional neighbors.

But ignore all of that and ask, what is a terror group anyway? The defining feature thereof is the use of violence directed at civilian populations.

I don't think it even matters. The point for me is compliance with international humanitarian law which is compulsory for everyone from terror groups to UN peacekeepers.
How do you expect Palestinians to fight back when their enemy, one of the most advanced militaries on the planet is breaking these laws on an hourly basis?
 

JPRouve

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Not necessarily because Israel says so. I think you would honestly find that the majority of the world apart from Iran says so. This includes even its regional neighbors.

But ignore all of that and ask, what is a terror group anyway? The defining feature thereof is the use of violence directed at civilian populations.

I don't think it even matters. The point for me is compliance with international humanitarian law which is compulsory for everyone from terror groups to UN peacekeepers.
No the defining feature is the use of violence or intimidation to further ideological goals whether they are political, religious, social, racial or anything else. It's often directed at civilians but it's not a definiting feature of terrorism.
 

Raven

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Can't see that myself tbh.

A little known fact about Iran is it used the same method as Israel within Syria. As in placement of Shia muslims there similarly to Israeli/Zionist methods in likes of Yemen.

It's always been a view that Israel has secretly helped Iran during the Iran Iraq war, especially when Saddam went in with his planes. At the time Iran didn't have the arsenal to stop the planes and I believe there have been pictures released of Israeli weapons and operators using ground to air missiles to take out the planes. Iraq should have taken over Iran once it used the planes.


Then again a lot of this is reported in mainly Sunni countries so who knows
I don't know too much about Iran other than the obvious but if any country was going to step in for Palestine, it would surely be Iran, wouldn't it?
 

snk123

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There's 10 dead in Isreal and 200+ in Gaza now. If Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket, all these men, women and children would still be alive today. I feel like Hamas should be part of the conversation somehow.
:lol: I feel sick reading these ignorant comments. Do you know who started the "conflict"? Do you know how many people in Palestine die every year? Do you know how many rockets actually make it to Israel? Do you know how many children have been killed in Israel and Palestine comparatively? Do you know the technological and military difference between Hamas and IDF?
 

Roane

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Not necessarily because Israel says so. I think you would honestly find that the majority of the world apart from Iran says so. This includes even its regional neighbors.

But ignore all of that and ask, what is a terror group anyway? The defining feature thereof is the use of violence directed at civilian populations.

I don't think it even matters. The point for me is compliance with international humanitarian law which is compulsory for everyone from terror groups to UN peacekeepers.
This is a bit selective, as your replies tend to be.

Even UK only sees one wing of Hamas as terrorists and not the whole entity. Plenty of countries apart from Iran don't designate Hamas as terrorists. In 2018 the UN general assembly rejected a US resolution condemning ahamas a terrorist organisation.

With regards to international law and UN etc then I ask you to list the Hamas list of what they have broken etc and list the ones against Israel.
 

Scarlett Dracarys

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Not necessarily because Israel says so. I think you would honestly find that the majority of the world apart from Iran says so. This includes even its regional neighbors.

But ignore all of that and ask, what is a terror group anyway? The defining feature thereof is the use of violence directed at civilian populations.

I don't think it even matters. The point for me is compliance with international humanitarian law which is compulsory for everyone from terror groups to UN peacekeepers.
Israel has the means and intel to cripple this terrorist organization they speak of without killing innocent people. The problem here is they don't want to go that route because it doesn't fit their agenda. They need everything to play out this way because that's how they get what they really want. This is how they stake claim to land that the Palestinians have been inhabiting for generations. Paint them as terrorist, invade and plunder.