Israel - Palestine Discussion

lefty_jakobz

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Not necessarily because Israel says so. I think you would honestly find that the majority of the world apart from Iran says so. This includes even its regional neighbors.

But ignore all of that and ask, what is a terror group anyway? The defining feature thereof is the use of violence directed at civilian populations.

I don't think it even matters. The point for me is compliance with international humanitarian law which is compulsory for everyone from terror groups to UN peacekeepers.
Your second paragraph could be used to describe israel...Palestinians have violence directed at them on a daily basis
 

sun_tzu

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Hamas should
My worry is that Iran gets directly involved.
I personally dont think thats likley - at least overtly / directly
Given the location they are going to struggle to get any meaningful troops or even air support into the area... and a missile strike from Iran would probably not go down well with USA, Saudi or Eygpt... as a minumim they would probably end up with increased sanctions and a disproprtionate military responce - and all they way up to total destruction

Probably better to sit back and hope that Israel takes such a blow interationally over this that it allows Iran to normalise relations with other countries

Perhaps the best result would be these sauid / iranian talks that have apparently been ongoing for a while... between them they could probably muster a joint declaration from pretty much all the surrounding countries and push for unified diplomatic action... it wont stop the bombs tonight or tomorrow but it probably offers the best hope for the region overall if it happens
 

The Original

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How do you expect Palestinians to fight back when their enemy, one of the most advanced militaries on the planet is breaking these laws on an hourly basis?
From a tactical perspective, they have no chance against Israel. I mean, even the current method is not working is it?
 

Halftrack

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How do you expect Palestinians to fight back when their enemy, one of the most advanced militaries on the planet is breaking these laws on an hourly basis?
They obviously shouldn't. They should peacefully protest, because we certainly haven't seen Israeli snipers firing on unarmed protesters and the medics trying to help them before.
Not necessarily because Israel says so. I think you would honestly find that the majority of the world apart from Iran says so. This includes even its regional neighbors.

But ignore all of that and ask, what is a terror group anyway? The defining feature thereof is the use of violence directed at civilian populations.

I don't think it even matters. The point for me is compliance with international humanitarian law which is compulsory for everyone from terror groups to UN peacekeepers.
Yet you seem to be focusing on the crimes of the irregular combatants of Hamas, and seem to only give cursory mention to the crimes of the modern military with sophisticated weaponry.
 

lefty_jakobz

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My worry is that Iran gets directly involved.
If I was guessing id say it would more likely to be Turkey or Pakistan. The Arabs wont as money matters more than life. Iran wont attack israel as it will open up for the Saudis to launch an offensive against them.
 

snk123

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This is a bit selective, as your replies tend to be.

Even UK only sees one wing of Hamas as terrorists and not the whole entity. Plenty of countries apart from Iran don't designate Hamas as terrorists. In 2018 the UN general assembly rejected a US resolution condemning ahamas a terrorist organisation.

With regards to international law and UN etc then I ask you to list the Hamas list of what they have broken etc and list the ones against Israel.
You'll be labelled a terrorist sympathizer soon. No one here is justifying killing of innocents. However, if anything, this latest "terrorism" by Israel and the lack of response from the world just shows that you can not trust what you are told to believe. Hamas is labelled a "terrorist" wing because Israel wants it to be such and the rest of the world complies as always.

If Israel had suffered even 1% of what it inflicts on Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, it would receive 1000% more coverage and condemnation from the world.
 

lefty_jakobz

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I wouldn't disagree...In fact, I strongly agree. My only point has been, how much of the blame does hamas get to share for this?
hamas is a despicable organisation however they are the only ‘army’ the Palestinians have. That being said this is just an opportunity of them to exploit this latest aggression by israel, and to be honest I wouldnt be surprised if bibi and hamas were in cahoots
 

Raoul

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This is a bit selective, as your replies tend to be.

Even UK only sees one wing of Hamas as terrorists and not the whole entity. Plenty of countries apart from Iran don't designate Hamas as terrorists. In 2018 the UN general assembly rejected a US resolution condemning ahamas a terrorist organisation.

With regards to international law and UN etc then I ask you to list the Hamas list of what they have broken etc and list the ones against Israel.
None of the powerbrokers don't view Hamas or its military wing as terrorist organizations. Nevermind the Israeli government's position - if the US and to a lesser extent the EU view Hamas as such then they are obviously not going to be negotiated with, much less appeased.
 

Roane

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You'll be labelled a terrorist sympathizer soon. No one here is justifying killing of innocents. However, if anything, this latest "terrorism" by Israel and the lack of response from the world just shows that you can not trust what you are told to believe. Hamas is labelled a "terrorist" wing because Israel wants it to be such and the rest of the world complies as always.

If Israel had suffered even 1% of what it inflicts on Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, it would receive 1000% more coverage and condemnation from the world.
I'm surprised I haven't been already tbh.

I'm nearly 50 years old and gave seen this scenario played out again and again. The difference being that social media has stopped folk shouting conspiracy theory at some of my arguments and points.

It's interesting to read that Israel has a media black out even in Israel. Because the basically lie to their own population. The analysis is that if Israelis saw the pictures of what's happening to Palestinians they too would be apalled. Not all obviously but moreso.

People forget some of the past too. If anyone wishes to investigate why tight wingers and minority parties get into power just look at the changes made 25 years ago to their political system. You'd be excused for thinking it was planned
 

diarm

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While the US, the UK and much of the EU are actively condoning and supporting apartheid and ethnic cleansing in Palestine, I'm not sure their opinions on how Hamas, or anyone else involved in the conflict should be viewed are worth the steam off the back of my piss.
 

The Original

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Yet you seem to be focusing on the crimes of the irregular combatants of Hamas, and seem to only give cursory mention to the crimes of the modern military with sophisticated weaponry.
I suppose you're correct in your observation but this is because of how the conversation has developed. Remember, you are replying to my reply to someone's reply to my reply to yet another person...with each reply, the issues are changing.

Israel has indeed inflicted too much punishment on the civilian population.
 

Raven

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From a tactical perspective, they have no chance against Israel. I mean, even the current method is not working is it?
Well of course it fecking can't, one side is fighting with stones and fire works, the other fights with fighter jets and has a nuke in the back pocket. Until a proper super power steps in, it'll continue like this.
They obviously shouldn't. They should peacefully protest, because we certainly haven't seen Israeli snipers firing on unarmed protesters and the medics trying to help them before.

Yet you seem to be focusing on the crimes of the irregular combatants of Hamas, and seem to only give cursory mention to the crimes of the modern military with sophisticated weaponry.
Exactly, they should just accept their terrible quality of life and shut up, in some posters views it seems. Pretty abhorrent stuff.
If I was guessing id say it would more likely to be Turkey or Pakistan. The Arabs wont as money matters more than life. Iran wont attack israel as it will open up for the Saudis to launch an offensive against them.
Turkey? They're feck all better than Israel themselves.
 

Ramshock

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Thing is, Israel has been pushing for years the idea that any criticism towards Israel is based on anti semitism.
Yes I am well aware of that. They took lessons on how to murder natives with a smile and loads of charm from the British Empire
 

Roane

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None of the powerbrokers don't view Hamas or its military wing as terrorist organizations. Nevermind the Israeli government's position - if the US and to a lesser extent the EU view Hamas as such then they are obviously not going to be negotiated with, much less appeased.
Let's be honest and just say USA. There power to veto pretty much what all others agree on is a big issue
 

africanspur

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Speaking as a minority living in UK since the 1970's, about all I can base my experience on, I imagine life would have been similar to mine for any minority, including Jewish folk in some of the Muslim lands.

I have had mainly a good life, with the odd beating in school (race based) the odd beating given and over the years incidents that I feel wouldn't have happened if I was white English. (Input white English as I saw what happened on occasion to Irish etc).

The incidents that have been worse/uncomfortable have been due to things that have occured on a social or political level. So when the NF was around it wasnt always pleasant. When 9/11 happened it was toxic for a while and recently during the run up to Brexit.

I am making the assumption that it would have been similar for Jewish folk living in Muslim lands. It's not right by any stretch, but overall was it same as my own experience? As in mainly good.

I wonder if the creation of Israel made it worse for them? Simply a sort of 9/11 time I witnessed?

All I know is I have a friend of a friend who always said his Gran never forgave the Brits for taking her from Yemen to Israel. She being Yemeni Jewish.
We were initially talking about the life of the Jews roughly in the middle ages, which is often put forward as some kind of utopia by many Muslims with regards to minority rights. It was certainly much better than it was in Europe but not a life many would consider dignified now. I assume you wouldn't want to pay an extra tax now for being Muslim, nor to wear clothes marking you as one.

I think we also see the plight of Arab Christians, a significant portion of which have left their countries over successive waves of migration, which I assume can't be put down in any way to zionism or Israel.

We can probably hsve a medium between the Arabs would exterminate the Jews to the Jews would be living a similar life there now as we do as minorities in the UK.
 

Raven

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Yes I am well aware of that. They took lessons on how to murder natives with a smile and loads of charm from the British Empire
Yup. I don't know if anyone caught that show the other night on Channell 4 about the Ballymurphy massacre but the parallels between the troubles and the Israel - Palestine situation is harrowing.
 

Traub

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Israel has the means and intel to cripple this terrorist organization they speak of without killing innocent people. The problem here is they don't want to go that route because it doesn't fit their agenda. They need everything to play out this way because that's how they get what they really want. This is how they stake claim to land that the Palestinians have been inhabiting for generations. Paint them as terrorist, invade and plunder.
How? Genuine question.
 

rotherham_red

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They obviously shouldn't. They should peacefully protest, because we certainly haven't seen Israeli snipers firing on unarmed protesters and the medics trying to help them before.

Yet you seem to be focusing on the crimes of the irregular combatants of Hamas, and seem to only give cursory mention to the crimes of the modern military with sophisticated weaponry.
Or bulldozed American international human rights observers... Oh what's that? You want me to Google Rachel Corrie? Ok, *goggles*... Oh. Never mind.
 

IhabX7

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@Amir - how are you? Hope you’re safe. Is there any opposition to what the Israelis are doing from the left within Israel? Not so much from any political figures but more the people.

@IhabX7 - haven't heard from you for a couple of days. Are you ok and safe?
I’m ok my friend.
 

Raoul

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Let's be honest and just say USA. There power to veto pretty much what all others agree on is a big issue
The "all others" don't have any power to do anything, so ultimately, this is strictly a matter between the US and Israel. If the President of the USA calls the Israeli PM and demands he knock if off, chances are he will do so - or at a minimum begrudgingly wind down what he's doing and not follow through with previously planned operations.

Publicly, Biden isn't going to talk tough against the Israeli side because the American public largely view all of this as a confrontation between an allied nation state and a terrorist organization. Privately, he could cajole Netanyahu to wrap it up and deescalate and/or have his middle east envoy meat with both sides (via the Egyptians) to create ceasefire terms. But that is obviously not going to happen until there's a temporary cessation in violence.
 

diarm

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Yup. I don't know if anyone caught that show the other night on Channell 4 about the Ballymurphy massacre but the parallels between the troubles and the Israel - Palestine situation is harrowing.
The big difference being that in starving, impoverishing and oppressing us, the Brits actually became the architects of their own downfall in Ireland.

So many of us were forced to flee Ireland, especially to the States, that we began to establish ourselves there. People began to realise we were not just the thick, savage terrorists the British have painted us as for centuries, but had something to offer the world. Bigger and at the time, better nations than Britain began putting pressure on them, began taking a closer look at what was going on, until they couldn't keep committing the same old atrocities they had been carrying out for so long. They didn't stop because they suddenly grew a conscience, they stopped because they knew the gig was up.

The problem today in Palestine is that there aren't better countries in a position to put that pressure on Israel. The few countries with any power today, are as morally bankrupt as Britain has always been and they stand behind the wrongdoers, not the oppressed in this and in so many other conflicts.

While the governments, the media and so many of the people in Western and powerful countries are happy to keep painting victims as terrorists or savages, and bullies as the legitimate good, defending themselves, I can't see how we ever get to a position of peace that doesn't involve the complete extermination of Palestinians as a people.
 

VidaRed

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I'm surprised I haven't been already tbh.

I'm nearly 50 years old and gave seen this scenario played out again and again. The difference being that social media has stopped folk shouting conspiracy theory at some of my arguments and points.

It's interesting to read that Israel has a media black out even in Israel. Because the basically lie to their own population. The analysis is that if Israelis saw the pictures of what's happening to Palestinians they too would be apalled. Not all obviously but moreso.

People forget some of the past too. If anyone wishes to investigate why tight wingers and minority parties get into power just look at the changes made 25 years ago to their political system. You'd be excused for thinking it was planned
Israelis dont have access to the internet ? Fearless here has access to every footage that we have and he still isn't convinced.
 

Raven

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The big difference being that in starving, impoverishing and oppressing us, the Brits actually became the architects of their own downfall in Ireland.

So many of us were forced to flee Ireland, especially to the States, that we began to establish ourselves there. People began to realise we were not just the thick, savage terrorists the British have painted us as for centuries, but had something to offer the world. Bigger and at the time, better nations than Britain began putting pressure on them, began taking a closer look at what was going on, until they couldn't keep committing the same old atrocities they had been carrying out for so long. They didn't stop because they suddenly grew a conscience, they stopped because they knew the gig was up.

The problem today in Palestine is that there aren't better countries in a position to put that pressure on Israel. The few countries with any power today, are as morally bankrupt as Britain has always been and they stand behind the wrongdoers, not the oppressed in this and in so many other conflicts.

While the governments, the media and so many of the people in Western and powerful countries are happy to keep painting victims as terrorists or savages, and bullies as the legitimate good, defending themselves, I can't see how we ever get to a position of peace that doesn't involve the complete extermination of Palestinians as a people.
I agree of course that the Palestinians are in a worse spot and have no real end in sight to their plight but the tactics used are fairly similar. Britain after all is the godfather of colonialism.
 

diarm

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I agree of course that the Palestinians are in a worse spot and have no real end in sight to their plight but the tactics used are fairly similar. Britain after all is the godfather of colonialism.
Sorry yes, I wasn't disagreeing with your point. Just pointing out that in many ways, and I don't say this lightly, this injustice is even worse.
 

Raven

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Sorry yes, I wasn't disagreeing with your point. Just pointing out that in many ways, and I don't say this lightly, this injustice is even worse.
I definitely agree with you. I would say that the British and Irish situation was far longer than the troubles, as I'm sure you're already aware, and that things like the famine and the black and tans as well as the troubles have given a blue print to regimes like Israel and South Africa.
 

Fearless

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Israelis dont have access to the internet ? Fearless here has access to every footage that we have and he still isn't convinced.
So what you're implying is that Israeli's (who you know full well have unfettered internet access) are incapable of empathy. There are plenty of human rights groups in Israel, a vocal left-wing and Arab parties in the Knesset.

What utterly fascinates me is how unconvinced you are by the very people you purport to care about.

Again..

 

Fearless

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Yup. I don't know if anyone caught that show the other night on Channell 4 about the Ballymurphy massacre but the parallels between the troubles and the Israel - Palestine situation is harrowing.
Did the IRA call for the entire destruction of the UK?
Did the IRA launch several full scale wars on it and threaten to push every protestant into the sea?

Well did it?
 

diarm

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I definitely agree with you. I would say that the British and Irish situation was far longer than the troubles, as I'm sure you're already aware, and that things like the famine and the black and tans as well as the troubles have given a blue print to regimes like Israel and South Africa.
Certainly. I would go further than simply saying Israel looked to Ireland, Kashmir or the Boer War simply for inspiration - I'd wager that they had first hand input to the regime. Israel creating Hamas as the figurative dragon for it to slay in front of the world is straight out of the British playbook.
 

diarm

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Did the IRA call for the entire destruction of the UK?
Did the IRA launch several full scale wars on it and threaten to push every protestant into the sea?

Well did it?
The IRA committed atrocities when pushed to desperation by an evil oppressor for whom atrocities were an acceptable means of everyday control. If you cannot see the parallels then there is no hope for you.
 

Carolina Red

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I definitely agree with you. I would say that the British and Irish situation was far longer than the troubles, as I'm sure you're already aware, and that things like the famine and the black and tans as well as the troubles have given a blue print to regimes like Israel and South Africa.
You even have Cromwell doing forced evictions.
 

Raoul

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So what you're implying is that Israeli's (who you know full well have unfettered internet access) are incapable of empathy. There are plenty of human rights groups in Israel, a vocal left-wing and Arab parties in the Knesset.

What utterly fascinates me is how unconvinced you are by the very people you purport to care about.

Again..

The Green Prince is just one person though. If this narrative had any legitimacy, why aren't there thousands more Palestinians adopting it ?
 

Raven

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Did the IRA call for the entire destruction of the UK?
Did the IRA launch several full scale wars on it and threaten to push every protestant into the sea?

Well did it?
Do you know much about Irish history?
 

Fearless

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The IRA committed atrocities when pushed to desperation by an evil oppressor for whom atrocities were an acceptable means of everyday control. If you cannot see the parallels then there is no hope for you.
You need a history lesson mate.

What part of the Arabs starting five wars to kill the jews don't you understand?

If anything the Irish plight is nearer to the Jewish plight than the other way round.