Israel - Palestine Discussion

Roane

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We were initially talking about the life of the Jews roughly in the middle ages, which is often put forward as some kind of utopia by many Muslims with regards to minority rights. It was certainly much better than it was in Europe but not a life many would consider dignified now. I assume you wouldn't want to pay an extra tax now for being Muslim, nor to wear clothes marking you as one.

I think we also see the plight of Arab Christians, a significant portion of which have left their countries over successive waves of migration, which I assume can't be put down in any way to zionism or Israel.

We can probably hsve a medium between the Arabs would exterminate the Jews to the Jews would be living a similar life there now as we do as minorities in the UK.
Yeah I appreciate we are talking of different times. I was just using my own experiences to get a feel of what it may have been like for some folk. Even in my generation some folk had it worse or better depending where they lived. I'm probably way off but I don't know any other way to try and understand the situation that was so long ago.

With regards to minority rights I'm thinking you are talking about the Jizya or tax for non muslims?

If so it's something that gets used a lot but isn't really looked into. So for example muslims in Muslim lands were all paying 2.5% of their total wealth (so properties livestock etc is all considered) but the "dhimmis" or non muslims are not liable for that. They pay Jiziya which even today would be less than £20 a year. Obviously excluded widows/elderly and children. It also excluded any non muslim joining the military. FYI some muslims in Pakistan claim to be Shia so they only pay the lesser amount to this day.

I'm not suggesting everything was a bed of roses however I do believe the majority of issues leading to migration etc were in large part to geo-political reasons. So for example who had heard of the Yazidis before ISIS?

Also I think depending on which part of history you read it can give a different view. So for me as a Muslim who studied some parts outside of UK my views on likes of Salahuddins and Richard were different to howni was taught in school. Similarly the view of muslims by muslims isn't always what we hear in UK. So the Ottomans for example have critics in the Muslim world and they existed for a long while. You won't get those on CNN when discussing the Caliphate. But this isn't down to them more the media want a foaming at the mouth Islamist or a complete sell out.

The tragedy for me is that the truth is somewhere in between what muslims and non muslims believe or are taught but unless we sit and discuss, in a manner where accusations are off the table, we won't get to the truth.
 

Raven

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Certainly. I would go further than simply saying Israel looked to Ireland, Kashmir or the Boer War simply for inspiration - I'd wager that they had first hand input to the regime. Israel creating Hamas as the figurative dragon for it to slay in front of the world is straight out of the British playbook.
No doubt. I feel Britain is fighting the same figurative Dragon itself.
 

Raven

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Fearless

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The Green Prince is just one person though. If this narrative had any legitimacy, why aren't there thousands more Palestinians adopting it ?
One person who happens to be the son of a Hamas founder. There are others, but you know what happens to the majority.
 

Halftrack

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Did the IRA launch several full scale wars on it and threaten to push every protestant into the sea?
:lol: at the idea that Hamas can launch "full-scale" wars. Full-scale war involves air, land and sea capabilities.
 

Deery

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You need a history lesson mate.

What part of the Arabs starting five wars to kill the jews don't you understand?

If anything the Irish plight is nearer to the Jewish plight than the other way round.
It’s not the loyalists adopt the Israeli flag simply because they’re on the side of oppression from the British and Nationalists adopt the Palestine flag because they can associate themselves with the treatment of Israel on the Palestinians. It would be a major insult to republicans to say you have more in common with Israel.
 

Fearless

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The Irish got guns off everyone, and have helped the Palestinians many times. I see in a previous post that you've compared the plight of the Irish to the plight of Israel and I'm honestly a little insulted.
Did not both suffer at the hands of British colonialism?

Please read that article - I meant no offence.
 

Fearless

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It’s not the loyalists adopt the Israeli flag simply because they’re on the side of oppression from the British and Nationalists adopt the Palestine flag because they can associate themselves with the treatment of Israel on the Palestinians. It would be a major insult to republicans to say you have more in common with Israel.
Why?

Both argue that they are native to their land.

Read that article.
 

Roane

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Israelis dont have access to the internet ? Fearless here has access to every footage that we have and he still isn't convinced.
Think someone posted a news item on here earlier where it was a Jewish person who was saying that if Israelis saw what was happening there maybe outrage or more outrage internally.

I'm assuming this would be the "left" leaning folk rather than the right leaning ones who are involved in some of the skirmishes.

Ultimately we can only go on what we are told. But tbf Israel has taken certain steps to "intimidate" it's own citizens if they don't follow the narrative. Dating back to the guy who was drugged and kidnapped and imprisoned for saying something about nuclear weapons to the rabbi in 2014 who the Israeli PM isolated as he said rockets can't or won't fall on certain part. As this contradicted the narrative. Of course a rocket then did hit the city so we can read into that what we want. Was rabbi wrong or coincidence? We won't know for sure but I suppose if we look at the area and it's coverage by rockets before and after we may get an idea who was right.

I also read a piece a while back that one other reason for the blackouts is that Israel's defences aren't as they claim to be. So the iron some is good but depending on rockets it can't cope, so Israel does the blackout to protect it's citizens to minimize the negative impact and/or frustrations at claims that their defences aren't in fact as claimed.
 

Roane

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You need a history lesson mate.

What part of the Arabs starting five wars to kill the jews don't you understand?

If anything the Irish plight is nearer to the Jewish plight than the other way round.
Can you name the 5 wars. Would be interested in reading up
 

diarm

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You need a history lesson mate.

What part of the Arabs starting five wars to kill the jews don't you understand?

If anything the Irish plight is nearer to the Jewish plight than the other way round.
I am not discussing the plight of Jews throughout history. I am discussing the war crimes, apartheid and atrocities being committed by Israel unto Palestine today. There is nothing about what Israel are doing that is even remotely similar to anything Ireland has ever done to anyone else.

One person who happens to be the son of a Hamas founder.
Your current Prime Minister is a Hamas founder. Can we have some videos of him please?
 

Deery

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Why?

Both argue that they are native to their land.

Read that article.
Mostly because of Gerrymandering and being treated like second class citizens and the human rights violations.
 

JakeC

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Did the IRA call for the entire destruction of the UK?
Did the IRA launch several full scale wars on it and threaten to push every protestant into the sea?

Well did it?
The Provisional IRA, or atleast certain cells within it, were in fact secterian, but were ultimately brought about to protect an abused poppulation.

This is where you lose your argument. Just like the actions of Hamas don't remove the fact that the Palestinian People are being opressed by Israel.

Nobody here likes Hamas, but it's the absolute whataboutism you're spouting that's making you look so callous.

Edit: comparing the foundation of an Ethnostate that actively persecutes people based on their race and religion, to the struggle the Irish people have, and in many ways continue to have is not only fractaly incorrect, it's ridiculously insulting.
 
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Roane

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Just for information the word dhimmi never had negative connotations as it literally meant people of the covenant or book. Or a protected person.

It's use in modern terms of seen as an almost "them and us" but it's origin is more us, as in people of the same covenant
 

Ali Dia

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You need a history lesson mate.

What part of the Arabs starting five wars to kill the jews don't you understand?

If anything the Irish plight is nearer to the Jewish plight than the other way round.
I’m an Irish nationalist and you are talking out of your hole as per usual.

Ireland stands with Palestine and we all see your war crimes and your oppression and your downright theft.
 
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Roane

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You need a history lesson mate.

What part of the Arabs starting five wars to kill the jews don't you understand?

If anything the Irish plight is nearer to the Jewish plight than the other way round.
Israel and it's proxy lebonese christian units killing Irish soldiers on UN peace keeping duty would suggest the plight is not that near. Kidnapping and executing Irish soldiers would suggest shared experiences with Palestine.

Using Irish passports to kill people would also be more in line with Muslim countries experiences
 

Giggsyking

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Over 160 children have died building tunnels for Hamas. They are the last style of resistance/goverment you want to protect your children.
@Shamana @shamans
Either one of you change his username or one of you stop writing in the thread, you are fecking confusing me. I thought for a moment you were one person having an argument with himself.
 
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Raoul

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Jews were one of the richest and most respected minorities in arab countries. They were famous actors, ministers

@Shamana @shamans
Either one of you change his username or one of you stop writing in the thread, you are fecking confusing me. I thought for a moment you were one person having an argument with himself.
[/QUOTE]

It is confusing. Should we merge them into one poster ?
 

Deery

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[/QUOTE]

It is confusing. Should we merge them into one poster ?
[/QUOTE]
The fusion dance!
 

Roane

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“I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."

Ariel Sharon
 

RedTiger

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“I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."

Ariel Sharon
Don't you just love the giving of olive branches.
 

JakeC

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calodo2003

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Jews were one of the richest and most respected minorities in arab countries. They were famous actors, ministers

@Shamana @shamans
Either one of you change his username or one of you stop writing in the thread, you are fecking confusing me. I thought for a moment you were one person having an argument with himself.
It is confusing. Should we merge them into one poster ?
[/QUOTE]
This would totally recalibrate multiple threads.
 

Gehrman

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I did actually pm @Raoul to get my username changed , but never got a reply.

I quite like having confusing back and forths with my alter ego though.