Israel - Palestine Discussion

africanspur

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
7,559
Supports
Tottenham Hotspur
You can't compare an era 300 years ago to today. It was a totally different time. BTW, I am not sure till how long the "different clothes" practice lasted either but we are talking about a time when the enlightened western countries would slaughter every other citizen of the land they now owned/conquered. Compared to that Jews had a much better status and for the time it was much better than the norm. To me that makes it seem quite obvious if tables were turned, palestinians would not eliminate every jewish person.

As for the "feelings before", the growing anti Jewish sentiment (even before holocaust) was primarily in Europe, not Middle East.
You can do when you're using it as an example of what would happen now.

As I said, Jews were far better off in the Muslim world than the Christian world hundreds of years ago but this is of course patently not the case now and regardless, they were not equal citizens in the modern sense (of course, no minorities were at that time).

There's nothing quite obvious about it. Again, I don't think the Palestinians/Arabs would do it but they've spent decades with...let's say fiery rhetoric coming from all sides, both religious and secular. I don't say this as some Western outsider but as someone who's worked in Egypt before, has a half Egyptian wife, regularly visits Egypt to see her family, speaks Arabic and watches Arabic TV on dish at home.

Ultimately, there isn't going to be resolution until the sides can begin to understand each others' concerns even a little bit. That includes understanding that perhaps Israeli Jews may have some valid apprehension if their military edge is dampened and that for Mizrahi Jews, many of them did not choose to leave their home countries voluntarily. For the Israelis, it of course means understanding the Palestinian experience of the Nakba, the displacement, the violence, the bombs, the checkpoints, soldiers, settlers, permits, demolitions, expulsions etc etc etc.
 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
6,937

Its crazy how John Oliver as a Jew, could be so much more straightforward and honest on this situation than the self-styled son of Apartheid Trevor Noah was last week.
 

jeff_goldblum

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
3,114
I think it is possible that the two are connected even if not the same, the reasons for current actions and beliefs embedded in the past. The aims never rest, any ceasefires or negotiated peace only results in settlers taking more, any protest including violence from Hamas, which let's be honest is a fraction of the response, sees the process repeat and around we go again. At some point Israel will run out of victims.
Yeah I wouldn't argue they're unconnected, obviously the acceptance and defence of Israel's existence as an overt and unapologetic ethnostate, whether from the Israeli right, mainstream voices in the US and UK or the German left, has a lot to do with the Holocaust and the general fact that Jews in non-Jewish states, particularly in Europe, have historically been persecuted.

But that wasn't really my point. I don't have any issue with discussion of the Holocaust and how it has influenced the current situation. I definitely don't have issues with people comparing the situation in Palestine to historical events, as long as the comparison has more to it than 'both are racist things involving Jewish people'. My point is that the Holocaust isn't a valid comparison and I'm uncomfortable with it being invoked in the same way I'd be uncomfortable with someone saying "He's raped him there" to describe a footballer dribbling past someone. Regardless of whether it's done in good faith or not, invoking the Holocaust inappropriately can understandably be read as downplaying it's seriousness, or as an attempt to weaponise the suffering of Jews against the Israeli government.

In the case of East Jerusalem and the West Bank the Israeli aim is basically to enable and encourage illegal land grabs, use the backlash to justify de facto annexation of the territory and eventually push all the Palestinians off their land and into Jordanian refugee camps. In Gaza the tactic appears to be to make it as awful a place to live as possible and to use backlash as propaganda and pretext for more oppression, all with the aim of stopping Gaza developing into a functioning entity which might lead to louder calls for a two-state solution. Clearly this is morally reprehensible.

Generally speaking it's clear that the Israeli government sees little worth in the lives of Palestinians and they're more than happy to kill innocents to achieve their goals, but it's not the same as killing 6m people in a very clear attempt to wipe their entire race off the earth. 'Not as bad as Hitler' is a low bar and it's certainly not a compliment.
 

oates

No one is a match for his two masters degrees
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
21,535
Supports
Arsenal
Yeah I wouldn't argue they're unconnected, obviously the acceptance and defence of Israel's existence as an overt and unapologetic ethnostate, whether from the Israeli right, mainstream voices in the US and UK or the German left, has a lot to do with the Holocaust and the general fact that Jews in non-Jewish states, particularly in Europe, have historically been persecuted.

But that wasn't really my point. I don't have any issue with discussion of the Holocaust and how it has influenced the current situation. I definitely don't have issues with people comparing the situation in Palestine to historical events, as long as the comparison has more to it than 'both are racist things involving Jewish people'. My point is that the Holocaust isn't a valid comparison and I'm uncomfortable with it being invoked in the same way I'd be uncomfortable with someone saying "He's raped him there" to describe a footballer dribbling past someone. Regardless of whether it's done in good faith or not, invoking the Holocaust inappropriately can understandably be read as downplaying it's seriousness, or as an attempt to weaponise the suffering of Jews against the Israeli government.

In the case of East Jerusalem and the West Bank the Israeli aim is basically to enable and encourage illegal land grabs, use the backlash to justify de facto annexation of the territory and eventually push all the Palestinians off their land and into Jordanian refugee camps. In Gaza the tactic appears to be to make it as awful a place to live as possible and to use backlash as propaganda and pretext for more oppression, all with the aim of stopping Gaza developing into a functioning entity which might lead to louder calls for a two-state solution. Clearly this is morally reprehensible.

Generally speaking it's clear that the Israeli government sees little worth in the lives of Palestinians and they're more than happy to kill innocents to achieve their goals, but it's not the same as killing 6m people in a very clear attempt to wipe their entire race off the earth. 'Not as bad as Hitler' is a low bar and it's certainly not a compliment.
Maybe I misunderstood your post. No, I wouldn't attempt to directly compare the two but I think we agree on the historical fear. When you see some speak about Palestinian Arabs you begin to wonder about the relationship between the two events, that's all. Not that I'd want to come across as suggesting that all Israelis or Jews are the same.
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
10,499
Location
Florida
Not for me. Mealy-mouthed and bullshit impartiality, when in previous segments he's spoken truth to power.
One can have perceived impartiality regarding this while discussing real issues on both sides. He does seem to have a stance, though.

Perhaps just not as vitriolic as you would like.
 

Frosty

Logical and sensible but turns women gay
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
13,155
Location
Legacy Fan
Anyway perhaps HBO allow for more editorial leeway than Comedy Central?
 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
6,937
I would think it would be listed on the early childhood part of his Wiki, as it is for most.
The thing is, I've read his Wiki before and it previously did state that he was Jewish - this was a long time ago though, so likely would not have been legit.
 

africanspur

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
7,559
Supports
Tottenham Hotspur
Yeah I appreciate we are talking of different times. I was just using my own experiences to get a feel of what it may have been like for some folk. Even in my generation some folk had it worse or better depending where they lived. I'm probably way off but I don't know any other way to try and understand the situation that was so long ago.

With regards to minority rights I'm thinking you are talking about the Jizya or tax for non muslims?

If so it's something that gets used a lot but isn't really looked into. So for example muslims in Muslim lands were all paying 2.5% of their total wealth (so properties livestock etc is all considered) but the "dhimmis" or non muslims are not liable for that. They pay Jiziya which even today would be less than £20 a year. Obviously excluded widows/elderly and children. It also excluded any non muslim joining the military. FYI some muslims in Pakistan claim to be Shia so they only pay the lesser amount to this day.

I'm not suggesting everything was a bed of roses however I do believe the majority of issues leading to migration etc were in large part to geo-political reasons. So for example who had heard of the Yazidis before ISIS?

Also I think depending on which part of history you read it can give a different view. So for me as a Muslim who studied some parts outside of UK my views on likes of Salahuddins and Richard were different to howni was taught in school. Similarly the view of muslims by muslims isn't always what we hear in UK. So the Ottomans for example have critics in the Muslim world and they existed for a long while. You won't get those on CNN when discussing the Caliphate. But this isn't down to them more the media want a foaming at the mouth Islamist or a complete sell out.

The tragedy for me is that the truth is somewhere in between what muslims and non muslims believe or are taught but unless we sit and discuss, in a manner where accusations are off the table, we won't get to the truth.
I'm trying not to derail this thread this much because I think Israel's conduct since the beginning has been horrific but will carry it on for a little bit longer.

I think regardless of the amounts, you, I and pretty much any other minority in this country would not be happy with being marked out as different to the 'native' population, especially if that difference is marked by religion.

The Middle East has an incredible patchwork of ethnic groups and religions and I've used that myself in the past as a rebuttal to Islamophobes claiming Islam has a tendancy to simply absorb/ slaughter anyone in its way (certainly seems from a non-historian's perspective to have more diversity in that field than Europe did for instance) but I'm not referring to them. I'm referring to the increasing pressure on Christians across the Middle East, including their largest community in Egypt. This has nothing to do with Israel and yet I have seen (and heard) first hand the rhetoric used against them by the Muslim Brothers for instance, the Salafis or sadly, some of my own in-laws.

I genuinely don't mean this in a snarky way but I'm not toally sure what the rest of the post is regarding, unless its to say that Islam and its history is often misrepresented in the West, which I would generally agree with but which I'm not totally sure is relevant to our discussion at present, as I haven't made any general comments about Islam as a religion in this thread.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
115,129
Location
Los Angeles
Anyway perhaps HBO allow for more editorial leeway than Comedy Central?
I think its more so down to the fact that rules and norms are rapidly changing about what can be discussed on shows. Five or ten years ago, Oliver's piece would've resulted in a lot more pushback.
 

The Corinthian

Full Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
1,176
I'm trying not to derail this thread this much because I think Israel's conduct since the beginning has been horrific but will carry it on for a little bit longer.

I think regardless of the amounts, you, I and pretty much any other minority in this country would not be happy with being marked out as different to the 'native' population, especially if that difference is marked by religion.

The Middle East has an incredible patchwork of ethnic groups and religions and I've used that myself in the past as a rebuttal to Islamophobes claiming Islam has a tendancy to simply absorb/ slaughter anyone in its way (certainly seems from a non-historian's perspective to have more diversity in that field than Europe did for instance) but I'm not referring to them. I'm referring to the increasing pressure on Christians across the Middle East, including their largest community in Egypt. This has nothing to do with Israel and yet I have seen (and heard) first hand the rhetoric used against them by the Muslim Brothers for instance, the Salafis or sadly, some of my own in-laws.

I genuinely don't mean this in a snarky way but I'm not toally sure what the rest of the post is regarding, unless its to say that Islam and its history is often misrepresented in the West, which I would generally agree with but which I'm not totally sure is relevant to our discussion at present, as I haven't made any general comments about Islam as a religion in this thread.
The key detail which you're missing is that this system worked (by in large) before the advent of nation states. With large non-homogenous groups of people loosely falling under one empire, these groups were given considerable autonomy to rule according to their own doctrines, and largely stayed within their own 'tribes'. Within a modern lens, it does look vastly different to what we're used to now, but there's a certain logic therein (imo).
 

africanspur

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
7,559
Supports
Tottenham Hotspur
The key detail which you're missing is that this system worked (by in large) before the advent of nation states. With large non-homogenous groups of people loosely falling under one empire, these groups were given considerable autonomy to rule according to their own doctrines, and largely stayed within their own 'tribes'. Within a modern lens, it does look vastly different to what we're used to now, but there's a certain logic therein (imo).
I'm not missing anything. I didn't claim that the system is completely transferrable to now but there is little point in judging how Jews lived in Islamic countries 300 years ago and using that to judge how the Arab countries would deal with them now, without at least a significant and persistent detoxifying of the rhetoric which has pervaded much of the Arab-Israeli conflict in Arabic media in the past 70 years.
 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
6,937
One can have perceived impartiality regarding this while discussing real issues on both sides. He does seem to have a stance, though.

Perhaps just not as vitriolic as you would like.
If he's a news broadcaster, then by all means, be as impartial as you like. But, he's a commentator, and someone who has written and spoken at length on injustices around the world, and most especially in his own country and America when it comes to the subjugation and historic plunder of black people, where he well and truly spoke truth to power.

If he can do it there, he should have done it here. He knows full well, the parallels of the experiences between the two causes, and he also knows full well how close the two movements are ideologically.

Also, vitriolic? :lol:

If speaking out against the senseless murder of children is vitriolic, then call me vitriolic. That would be a badge of honour for me.

Though, it seems you like to make false equivalences between a besieged population and an nuclear armed, occupying force who is bombing said besieged region to kingdom come. So, maybe I shouldn't be surprised at your response.
 

Ali Dia

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
6,899
Location
Souness's Super Sub/George Weahs Talented Cousin
Which makes me laugh when posters like @The Original say that the resistance should be through 'acceptable' channels and not through any means necessary :houllier:
it always gets dragged into it when there’s nowhere else for a Zionist to go, it’s their ace in the hole. Israel actions are a disgrace to humanity, whatever the ethnicity of the populations involved. Big Love and respect to all the reasonable people standing up to them, especially the Jewish protestors in Israel. Takes massive balls to stand up in what is basically a right wing dictatorship where your friends could probably have you arrested or worse. Reasonable people know this is pure crime and ethnic cleansing and the right wing Israelis are total hypocrites and thieves