Israel - Palestine Discussion

rotherham_red

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it always gets dragged into it when there’s nowhere else for a Zionist to go, it’s their ace in the hole. Israel actions are a disgrace to humanity, whatever the ethnicity of the populations involved. Big Love and respect to all the reasonable people standing up to them, especially the Jewish protestors in Israel. Takes massive balls to stand up in what is basically a right wing dictatorship where your friends could probably have you arrested or worse. Reasonable people know this is pure crime and ethnic cleansing and the right wing Israelis are total hypocrites and thieves
100% mate. I've been to Jerusalem and Ramallah. I've seen the apartheid up close and personal. And being online, I know that not all Jews believe in what is happening in their name, and the brave ones that speak out deserve so much credit. They are allies in every sense of the word.
 

Gehrman

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Thought Trevor Noah handled this discussion pretty well.

Never really found Trevor funny or that insightful. John Oliver is better but John Stewart was in a different league in general. It's in general a bit tragic that we expect comedians more than anyone else to produce important political commentary.
 

calodo2003

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If he's a news broadcaster, then by all means, be as impartial as you like. But, he's a commentator, and someone who has written and spoken at length on injustices around the world, and most especially in his own country and America when it comes to the subjugation and historic plunder of black people, where he well and truly spoke truth to power.

If he can do it there, he should have done it here. He knows full well, the parallels of the experiences between the two causes, and he also knows full well how close the two movements are ideologically.

Also, vitriolic? :lol:

If speaking out against the senseless murder of children is vitriolic, then call me vitriolic. That would be a badge of honour for me.

Though, it seems you like to make false equivalences between a besieged population and an nuclear armed, occupying force who is bombing said besieged region to kingdom come. So, maybe I shouldn't be surprised at your response.
Calm down, I never said that you were vitriolic in your assertions. Noah is clearly making a point in that clip & is taking a side, but it doesn’t appear to be vitriolic enough for your tastes. You have every right to be vitriolic & rightfully so, just as Noah has every right to be measured

Commentators can be measured in their stances. They don’t need to always be uber-emotive. Perhaps this issue doesn’t hit as close to home for him as other issues. But he is displaying a stance in that video.

I’ll pass on biting on your last assertion.
 

calodo2003

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Never really found Trevor funny or that insightful. John Oliver is better but John Stewart was in a different league in general. It's in general a bit tragic that we expect comedians more than anyone else to produce important political commentary.
Different styles, different audiences, different approaches. To each their own.

But your second sentence is spot on.
 

Ali Dia

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100% mate. I've been to Jerusalem and Ramallah. I've seen the apartheid up close and personal. And being online, I know that not all Jews believe in what is happening in their name, and the brave ones that speak out deserve so much credit. They are allies in every sense of the word.
It’s a pity us Europeans can’t do more apart from boycott goods. Our governments don’t give a shit. They sold out a very long time ago. Our president (I’m Irish) Micheal D Higgins was pro Palestine and one of our most vocal critics of the apartheid in the region long before election and now he’s been pretty much silent on the issue since he took office. No comment on the recent trouble at all. Money money money. Israel and America are bullies at every level.
 
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shamans

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Calm down, I never said that you were vitriolic in your assertions. Noah is clearly making a point in that clip & is taking a side, but it doesn’t appear to be vitriolic enough for your tastes. You have every right to be vitriolic & rightfully so, just as Noah has every right to be measured

Commentators can be measured in their stances. They don’t need to always be uber-emotive. Perhaps this issue doesn’t hit as close to home for him as other issues. But he is displaying a stance in that video.

I’ll pass on biting on your last assertion.
Take a more "nuanced" approach during South Africa's aparthaid was also probably a thing.
 

calodo2003

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Take a more "nuanced" approach during South Africa's aparthaid was also probably a thing.
There were commentators doing so on the medium of the time.

But not every commentator shares the same level of emotion on a topic in which they believe.

Is he wrong for being more muted?
 

rotherham_red

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Calm down, I never said that you were vitriolic in your assertions. Noah is clearly making a point in that clip & is taking a side, but it doesn’t appear to be vitriolic enough for your tastes. You have every right to be vitriolic & rightfully so, just as Noah has every right to be measured

Commentators can be measured in their stances. They don’t need to always be uber-emotive. Perhaps this issue doesn’t hit as close to home for him as other issues. But he is displaying a stance in that video.

I’ll pass on biting on your last assertion.
@shamans pretty much nailed it. Things like this transcend both sides and impartiality, as John Oliver quite rightly said in his segment last night. Noah, as someone who lived through and came of age during Apartheid should know this intimately and should have brought that message forward. That he didn't is a shame.
 

rotherham_red

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There were commentators doing so on the medium of the time.

But not every commentator shares the same level of emotion on a topic in which they believe.

Is he wrong for being more muted?
And history hasn't judged them well. At all.
 

Fearless

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I’m an Irish nationalist and you are talking out of your hole as per usual.

Ireland stands with Palestine and we all see your war crimes and your oppression and your downright theft.
An Irish nationalist insulting a Jewish nationalist because he's nationalist.
 

Gehrman

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You boycotting Chinese products?

Thought not.
Boycotting everything made in China is freaking hard. Comparing Israel to China is a bit like shooting yourself in the foot as well.
 

The Corinthian

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I'm not missing anything. I didn't claim that the system is completely transferrable to now but there is little point in judging how Jews lived in Islamic countries 300 years ago and using that to judge how the Arab countries would deal with them now, without at least a significant and persistent detoxifying of the rhetoric which has pervaded much of the Arab-Israeli conflict in Arabic media in the past 70 years.
But that is the point (bolded). There's a clear precedence that they aren't subjugated to the degree you're saying. Especially to posters saying that if roles were reversed, they'd wipe off Jews / Israelis from the land. It's why we should illustrate the point that that's not the case.

I agree with you, the rhetoric from both sides these days is pretty vile, but it's looking at the symptom as opposed to the cause. Would this rhetoric exist if the events surrounding Israel happened the way they did? Probably not. (Not saying it wouldn't exist at all as there are idiots in every facet of society).
 

calodo2003

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@shamans pretty much nailed it. Things like this transcend both sides and impartiality, as John Oliver quite rightly said in his segment last night. Noah, as someone who lived through and came of age during Apartheid should know this intimately and should have brought that message forward. That he didn't is a shame.
Yes, it is odd how he couldn’t see clear similarities, but perhaps he just doesn’t.
 

Gehrman

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But that is the point (bolded). There's a clear precedence that they aren't subjugated to the degree you're saying. Especially to posters saying that if roles were reversed, they'd wipe off Jews / Israelis from the land. It's why we should illustrate the point that that's not the case.

I agree with you, the rhetoric from both sides these days is pretty vile, but it's looking at the symptom as opposed to the cause. Would this rhetoric exist if the events surrounding Israel happened the way they did? Probably not. (Not saying it wouldn't exist at all as there are idiots in every facet of society).
I was talking about possible scenarios from 1948 onwards specifically about Israeli Jews. I elaborated on some of this in post #4,393
 
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Ramshock

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An Irish nationalist insulting a Jewish nationalist because he's nationalist.
You are clearly taking the piss in this thread. You are very aware of the paralells between Ireland and Palestine. Unfortunately for us we didnt have 4 billion dollars worth of military aid every year from our big mucker Uncle Sam so we can bully the people we share land with.
 

Ali Dia

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An Irish nationalist insulting a Jewish nationalist because he's nationalist.
Nope. Nothing wrong with being a nationalist, that’s your right. There’s something very wrong with justifying murder, bullying and theft though. The rest of the world knows. You won’t be able to hide behind the anti semitic rhetoric for ever. History will eventually be your judge.

If Ireland was attempting to break every international law going I would protest and pull them up on it. I would call them on their bullshit 100%.but that’s not what Ireland do. We’ve been oppressed by a world class army for 900 years so we can sympathise with the Palestinians. If the roles were reversed I’d sympathise with the Israeli side. It’s about what is fair and unfair.

Today it’s just more racism, murder, theft and hyprocisy under the name of yet another bloodthirsty right wing government and nothing that happened 50 or 90 years ago or a YouTube video of an angry Arab is going to change that.

 
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Nani Nana

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Do you guys know which footballer defends the Palestinian cause the most?

Hamas Rodriguez
 

Roane

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I'm trying not to derail this thread this much because I think Israel's conduct since the beginning has been horrific but will carry it on for a little bit longer.

I think regardless of the amounts, you, I and pretty much any other minority in this country would not be happy with being marked out as different to the 'native' population, especially if that difference is marked by religion.

The Middle East has an incredible patchwork of ethnic groups and religions and I've used that myself in the past as a rebuttal to Islamophobes claiming Islam has a tendancy to simply absorb/ slaughter anyone in its way (certainly seems from a non-historian's perspective to have more diversity in that field than Europe did for instance) but I'm not referring to them. I'm referring to the increasing pressure on Christians across the Middle East, including their largest community in Egypt. This has nothing to do with Israel and yet I have seen (and heard) first hand the rhetoric used against them by the Muslim Brothers for instance, the Salafis or sadly, some of my own in-laws.

I genuinely don't mean this in a snarky way but I'm not toally sure what the rest of the post is regarding, unless its to say that Islam and its history is often misrepresented in the West, which I would generally agree with but which I'm not totally sure is relevant to our discussion at present, as I haven't made any general comments about Islam as a religion in this thread.
At different times there have been different treatment of minorities. Think we can agree on that.

The premise for some of the earlier times was not forceful difference, as in green number plates or yellow stars, it was difference with the view of freedom for all. A sort of wear what you want, eat what you want, even have your own institutions. There were limits applied and I'm not sure some are different to modern times in any country. I'm thinking Christmas holidays are a given here whereas Eid wasn't etc.

With Egypt currently I'm happy to be educated, however and please note I don't support the victimisation of any sect or person, haven't modern attacks against copts been political?

After Morsi wasn't some of it sectarian groups who supported Morsi v those who supported sisi?

A past pope for the copts was seen as an ally if Morsi but the one during the Arab spring was a Sisi supporter (pope Tawadoros).

Other attacks were IsIs related and I don't think they were just targeted at Copts but Egypt in general
 

Fearless

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Nope. Nothing wrong with being a nationalist, that’s your right. There’s something very wrong with justifying murder, bullying and theft though. The rest of the world knows. You won’t be able to hide behind the anti semitic rhetoric for ever. History will eventually be your judge.

If Ireland was attempting to break every international law going I would protest and pull them up on it. I would call them on their bullshit 100%.but that’s not what Ireland do. We’ve been oppressed by a world class army for 900 years so we can sympathise with the Palestinians. If the roles were reversed I’d sympathise with the Israeli side. It’s about what is fair and unfair.

Today it’s just more crime, murder, theft and hyprocisy under the name of yet another bloodthirsty right wing government and nothing that happened 50 or 90 years ago or a YouTube video of an angry Arab is going to change that.
The roles are reversed. But you don't like it cause if doesn't fit your victim based, left wing narrative. The Jews are the Irish, suffering European and Arab oppression and massacres. Is that they fought back that disturbs you?
 

The Corinthian

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I was talking about possible scenarios from 1948 onwards specifically about Israeli Jews. I elaborated on some of this in post #4,393
That's fair enough, but there's other posters in this thread who have that view. Hint: the username rhymes with Cockless.
 

Fearless

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You are clearly taking the piss in this thread. You are very aware of the paralells between Ireland and Palestine. Unfortunately for us we didnt have 4 billion dollars worth of military aid every year from our big mucker Uncle Sam so we can bully the people we share land with.
I assure you I am not taking the piss. Your omission of the genocidal Arab wars that led to where we are now is very convenient and soothing for you.