Israel - Palestine Discussion

Brown Toothpick

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Anyway @Fearless, apologies for getting into a tit for tat on the schools curriculums. More distraction.

Could I please request you find out more on the Israelis digging under Masjid Al Aqsa as posted several times before. Thanks, will check in with you on this again.
It's not in the pack they provided him.
 

space

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Such horrifying news coming from Gaza.. whole families murdered. Cruelty at this scale then you see Biden giving more missiles to Israel. Cannot wait to march on the streets again. End the occupation, end apartheid.
 

Roane

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I don't think it really offers freedom for all tbh but we'll probably have to agree to disagree. I would certainly hope we can agree on the fact that in modern times, it would not be a way to live.

No they haven't been political. They have been borne of the impression that some Islamists have both fomented and I'm sure some believe themselves, that the Copts were the primary drivers behind Morsi's overthrow, a statistical impossibility considering that they only make up 10% of the population and are spread out across the entire country. This is a view unfortunately shared by some of my wife's family, who also hold such opinions as 'Why do the `christians come out on eid? They should just stay in and leave us in the parks on that day'/'Copts live a much better life here than they ever would in any western country or if they had their own country' and some more...fiery stuff too.

It also ignores that attacks on and discrimination towards the Copts have been going on for decades and predate any real widespread recent popular political activism in Egypt.

No popes were allies for Morsi, who himself smartly avoiding making comments about the Copts but shared stages with Islamists who made horrendous comments about the Copts, both as a presidential candidate and as President. Its relatively difficult for the religious leaders in Egypt to stand too strongly against Sisi and his thugs sadly and its been that way in Egypt since the military took over in the 50s.

Perhaps the last mufti/pope to really try it was pope Shenouda the 3rd, who openly criticised Sadat over the camp David accords and earned himself an exile in the desert until Sadat was assassinated.

There is no communal violence in Egypt, in the same way as there is in Iraq, Lebanon, or even India, whereby two or more roughly even groups spend time beating each other, shooting at each other and blowing each other up. The Muslims in Egypt are almost uniformly sunni, with a small sufi population. The Copts are not equal players in a conflict. There are no Coptic armed groups, no coptic bombs or rockets. I can't think of a single time a Coptic group has targeted a mosque or a Muslim group in any way, shape or form. Copts undoubtedly generally support the status quo in Egypt, the same as the Christians in Syria tended to do the same, because Islamists have given them no reassurance that they won't feck them up if they spend a sustained period in power.
I'll keep it brief and expand if you need me to. Just got caught up in something.

Yeah I meant Mubarak not Morsi. I so get mixed up with names sometimes as I'm usually writing from memory. Think even copts and Christian groups attest to taking sides.

Think in modern times we take for granted something's in our own countries but use it as an obstacle in others. Eg foreign nurses having to pay 400-600 pounds pa, I believe, to work here. Issues with attire in most settings. Even Hijab for police women discriminates as it's not just head covering so many don't apply. I couldn't wear a thobe or shalwar kameez in some of my roles, even public ones. Had to be shirt and tie etc. Even when I do in private life I get comments and/or questions.

Think I mentioned before I have lived in UK for over 40 years and still get the "why did you come here" in polite conversation.

This is the context I meant my comments in. Obviously where there is clear atrocity then we call it out no matter who, when or where. Just think sometimes there are certain issues used to beat others with when they are similar if not same in modern times in our own countries.
 

Brown Toothpick

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Even their twitter handle is on a full blown meltdown. Embarrassing.
 

Dumbstar

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Anyway @Fearless, apologies for getting into a tit for tat on the schools curriculums. More distraction.

Could I please request you find out more on the Israelis digging under Masjid Al Aqsa as posted several times before. Thanks, will check in with you on this again.
Dear @Amir , @owlo or any other Israeli in here, please help Fearless and us out in getting this answer from the Israeli point of view. Many thanks.
 

glazed

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You need a history lesson mate.

What part of the Arabs starting five wars to kill the jews don't you understand?

If anything the Irish plight is nearer to the Jewish plight than the other way round.
Both sides argue that they were there first and the other side started it.

Interestingly in Hebrew and (I think) Arabic the word Palestinian and Israeli are the same word as Israelite and Philistine. So this goes back quite a long way.
 

Conor

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I’m not too sure what the relevance is whether they’re a “practicing” Jew or not, but anyway.

I’m saying while we are all free to draw our own strong conclusions regarding the meaning of the Holocaust, it is unfair to expect there to be a uniform, Jewish conclusion about the meaning of such an event. It is also unfair to then use Jewish victimhood in the Holocaust as an extra stick to beat those Jews who you deem have failed to take the correct lesson from it and apply it in a vastly different context many decades later. The Holocaust wasn’t an ethical educational experience with a clear message imparted, and Jews are not collectively obliged to respond to it in the exact way you might want them to. This is because they are humans who, like all humans, respond to their experiences in different ways depending on any number of factors. Being victims does not automatically confer some special status or responsibility above that which should apply to humanity as a whole (though many Jews are happy to assume such a burden).

I think this thread probably articulates what I’m trying to say better than I am:

Well my point was that there could be ethnic Jews(not sure even that is the correct term?) that don't follow religion in any way, who may not have grown up in an overtly Jewish environment; my assumption being that otherwise you would have been pretty much frequently exposed to discussion of the Holocaust and things of that nature over the course of your life.

Of course, there are plenty of people that can just determine that what is happening in Palestine is bad, without the need for any lessons from the past to confirm it, but it's not exactly a hot take to suggest that it would help a lot of people to empathise in this scenario, if they were to look back on the learnings of a previous tragedy that they probably had family be part of, and maybe gain some awareness of what is going on from an objective perspective in this current situation. I really don't see how it's 'unfair' to expect that from any human capable of compassion.
 

MDFC Manager

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Could I please request you find out more on the Israelis digging under Masjid Al Aqsa as posted several times before. Thanks, will check in with you on this again.
The feck? Why would they be digging under historical monuments?


...whilst simultaneously bombing gaza for their tunnel building?
 

Foxbatt

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I'll keep it brief and expand if you need me to. Just got caught up in something.

Yeah I meant Mubarak not Morsi. I so get mixed up with names sometimes as I'm usually writing from memory. Think even copts and Christian groups attest to taking sides.

Think in modern times we take for granted something's in our own countries but use it as an obstacle in others. Eg foreign nurses having to pay 400-600 pounds pa, I believe, to work here. Issues with attire in most settings. Even Hijab for police women discriminates as it's not just head covering so many don't apply. I couldn't wear a thobe or shalwar kameez in some of my roles, even public ones. Had to be shirt and tie etc. Even when I do in private life I get comments and/or questions.

Think I mentioned before I have lived in UK for over 40 years and still get the "why did you come here" in polite conversation.

This is the context I meant my comments in. Obviously where there is clear atrocity then we call it out no matter who, when or where. Just think sometimes there are certain issues used to beat others with when they are similar if not same in modern times in our own countries.
I entirely agree with you. I have issues here too forgetting which Berba or what Giggs, I am replying to. :)
 

Conor

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@Conor might be of some interest to you

It's not that I don't understand this point, I just think it's a very sad way of looking at things. I would like to believe that people who hold these sorts of thoughts about others can learn to overcome them, and trying to find common experiences to help them do that is a way of achieving this. Maybe it's not realistic to expect everyone to be able to do this, but certainly it exists as a mechanism to overcome prejudices.
 

e.cantona

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Kind of them to report on the intentions behind the Hamas rockets.

Have they also clarified that their own bombs are actually just "terms of endearments"?
Sure. They do seem to need their rocket defence system
 

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The feck? Why would they be digging under historical monuments?
There is a very serious reason for this. In fact, looking past all the distractions of bombings and wars, the real reason why Israel was created and is supported by non-Jews beyond all reprehension. It's got nothing to do with Judaism or Jewish holy land. Never was. It's more sinister. And no it's not only just a mosque being destroyed and replaced with something else (that too is only just part of the saga).

But I don't want to cloud anything our Israeli friends here can tell us. I would really, really like to know their side as I have no other way of finding out other than on here. @Amir, @Fearless, @owlo I continue to urge you to find out what you can from your side. This is a genuine request.
 

glazed

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The British left have a century long history of opposing zionism. And it has nothing to do with the Palestinians. It all stems from the way Zionism was promoted by the British and European establishment as a means of stopping Jews playing an instrumental role in communist revolution. To quote Churchill in 1922:

Zionism has already become a factor in the political convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing influence in Bolshevik circles with the international communistic system. Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal. The struggle which is now beginning between the Zionist and Bolshevik Jews is little less than a struggle for the soul of the Jewish people.

Zionism_versus_Bolshevism


So when you see Corbyn and friends (@lefty_jakobz ?) attacking Israel and not devoting the same energy to other human rights violations in the same region, it's important to understand the history of their emnity to Israel. Without Zionism (they think just like Churchill did) they would have ruled in London as well as Moscow.

Which is not to say Israel should be doing what it is doing to Gaza. Just that it is a much more complicated situation that goodies and baddies.
 

Sweet Square

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Think you missed the point of that one.

It's arguably disingenuous but it's not triumphalism.

Oh I got that they were talking about Hamas rockets, it was more that it was a crazy thing to tweet from the official Israel account.

Edit - My bad I did leave the last tweet out.
 
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Mogget

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Dear @Amir , @owlo or any other Israeli in here, please help Fearless and us out in getting this answer from the Israeli point of view. Many thanks.
There isn't a tangentially related YouTube video explaining this so he won't answer your question.
 

Dumbstar

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There isn't a tangentially related YouTube video explaining this so he won't answer your question.
That's fine, he/they will ask genuinely in-the-know people in Israel which we don't have access to. It will be a learning exercise for all of us.
 

owlo

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There is a very serious reason for this. In fact, looking past all the distractions of bombings and wars, the real reason why Israel was created and is supported by non-Jews beyond all reprehension. It's got nothing to do with Judaism or Jewish holy land. Never was. It's more sinister. And no it's not only just a mosque being destroyed and replaced with something else (that too is only just part of the saga).

But I don't want to cloud anything our Israeli friends here can tell us. I would really, really like to know their side as I have no other way of finding out other than on here. @Amir, @Fearless, @owlo I continue to urge you to find out what you can from your side. This is a genuine request.
I replied a few days ago with this:

The archeological whitewashing is a disgrace. There’s been a lot of “judification” there.(turning an ancient Muslim hall into a museum exhibit is not ok) If I recall correctly a right wing jewish group are behind it. That said, the Palestinian side have also caused complete carnage and disregard for archeological treasures (For example excavating to the al Aqsa vault.)

If you’re actually interested in the archeology of Jerusalem I have a cool article somewhere on my pc.
Just to add, due to my large collection of Muslim/Jewish coins from that era, I've been asked to go look at some of the finds and promptly told them to feck off. Iirc Steven Album (big islamic/oriental auction house in the USA have told them the same.) Neither the Jews nor Muslims have followed correct archeological protocol, nor shown proper respect or regard for either history or the other side.

They are STILL buying houses specficically to dig, knowing where the access to ancient tunnels are. I've been in some, it's a fecking disgrace. (I could go on all day about this as it's kinda my passion)
 

Dumbstar

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I replied a few days ago with this:



Just to add, due to my large collection of Muslim/Jewish coins from that era, I've been asked to go look at some of the finds and promptly told them to feck off. Iirc Steven Album (big islamic/oriental auction house in the USA have told them the same.) Neither the Jews nor Muslims have followed correct archeological protocol, nor shown proper respect or regard for either history or the other side.

They are STILL buying houses specficically to dig, knowing where the access to ancient tunnels are. I've been in some, it's a fecking disgrace. (I could go on all day about this as it's kinda my passion)
Thanks, appreciate it. Taking out the emotion from both sides, are you sure the digging is simply for trinkets? If so, fair enough.