Israel - Palestine Discussion

africanspur

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It's one piece of an extremely complex situation and therefor lacks (enormous amounts of) relevant context to be anywhere near a perfect summary. The way in which it is done feels like typical propaganda.
So what do you feel is the relevant context in the threatened Sheikh Jarrah evictions which makes it a more complicated situation?
 

Rektsanwalt

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So what do you feel is the relevant context in the threatened Sheikh Jarrah evictions which makes it a more complicated situation?
The other side of the story, obviously. No situation in the world that involves (simplifying here) two conflict parties could be "summed up perfectly" if just one perspective is shown. You might say the other perspective is flawed/bad/wrong/despiseful (whatever categories you think in here) but it is never irrelevant.
 

Raven

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Bloody hell, out of the fire. Into the fire.

China! Uighars!
I read their 4 point plan, and it's sensible but you can't help but feel strange that they're so sensible on this but so inhumane with regards to the Uighurs.

We live in a strange world.
I have no love for China but this is at least sounds like a sensible groundwork to build on. Certainly beats having the US as a mediator with their laughable lack of impartiality (gifting all of Jerusalem to the Israelis anyone?). Fully expect the US to veto or hamstring any attempts at a just peace though. A settlement based on 1967 lines does not benefit the Israeli hardliners (nor Hamas), so can see the US stepping in to sabotage this at every step.
I dount they could do worse than the USA in terms of leading a peace process... that said I dont see the USA or Israel accepting it at all

Good soft power / spin though... putting themself on the world stage an a counter balance to US dominance... and in a way where they know they almost certainly wont have to get involved in any meaningful way

That said long term if Gaza was fully soverign / part of a fully soverign palestine it would be a great place to build some ports and airstrips for china (though the USA would probably think anybody else having major military bases / infrastructurein the middle east was an act of war).
This is the problem with the USA and UK being under such evil leadership, it leaves spaces for the like of China to walk into and score easy PR points. When the traditional powerbrokers allow civilians to die by the hundreds, people will stop looking to them. China have done and continue to do horrible things but they're going to come out of this looking like the good guys.
 

Fredo

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The other side of the story, obviously. No situation in the world that involves (simplifying here) two conflict parties could be "summed up perfectly" if just one perspective is shown. You might say the other perspective is flawed/bad/wrong/despiseful (whatever categories you think in here) but it is never irrelevant.
What is the other side of the story? Kindly share with us so we see your point of view as it seems you are a clear advocate of throwing people out of their homes.
 

Spoony

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This is the problem with the USA and UK being under such evil leadership, it leaves spaces for the like of China to walk into and score easy PR points. When the traditional powerbrokers allow civilians to die by the hundreds, people will stop looking to them. China have done and continue to do horrible things but they're going to come out of this looking like the good guys.

Which I why I think it's a win win for the boys from Beijing.
 

Rektsanwalt

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What is the other side of the story? Kindly share with us so we see your point of view as it seems you are a clear advocate of throwing people out of their homes.
The only thing I am a clear advocate of is that presenting a onesided 1min 25sec piece of propaganda video as the perfect summary is wrong. Hell, showing more context might show that Israel's action are even worse than shown there. It's just a bad summary and has nothing to do with my personal views, to make that clear. I am pro palestina, generally speaking, in this conflict. I just hate unnecessary simplifications and propaganda.
 

Fredo

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The only thing I am a clear advocate of is that presenting a onesided 1min 25sec piece of propaganda video as the perfect summary is wrong. Hell, showing more context might show that Israel's action are even worse than shown there. It's just a bad summary and has nothing to do with my personal views, to make that clear. I am pro palestina, generally speaking, in this conflict. I just hate unnecessary simplifications and propaganda.
Still waiting for the other side of the story...
 

2cents

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Thought this was an interesting read. How accurate is it, @2cents ?

It’s just the standard Israeli line on the way the conflict has progressed. Truth mingled with dubious assertions which at the very least demand some qualification, all stripped of any context. It’s not history, it’s propaganda. If I’ve time later I might go through each tweet to show why.
 

esmufc07

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It’s just the standard Israeli line on the way the conflict has progressed. Truth mingled with dubious assertions which at the very least demand some qualification, all stripped of any context. It’s not history, it’s propaganda. If I’ve time later I might go through each tweet to show why.
Thanks, appreciated.
 

rimaldo

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And so more radicals are created, people more open to extremist messages, continuing the conflict and giving Israel/Likud a ready made excuse, easily swallowed by the gullible, to continue theft and brutalisation.
can’t say i blame people. easy to take the high road and say you should stop adding to the endless cycle but if i ever had to go through the same i can guarantee i would want my own version of justice.
 

Fearless

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The only thing I am a clear advocate of is that presenting a onesided 1min 25sec piece of propaganda video as the perfect summary is wrong. Hell, showing more context might show that Israel's action are even worse than shown there. It's just a bad summary and has nothing to do with my personal views, to make that clear. I am pro palestina, generally speaking, in this conflict. I just hate unnecessary simplifications and propaganda.
The agreed simplification is this: A bunch of unwelcome European Jews, under the instruction of the West, invaded another peoples country, ethnically cleansed them and continue to oppress and murder them for fun. Worse still, the oppressors should know better.
 

Fearless

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It's pretty obvious symbolism for what's happened in Sheikh Jarrah and what's happened elsewhere wrt Palestinian property and land.
Exactly. Palestinians refusing to pay rent for a house that was always owned by Jews pre 48, then stolen by Jordan in an act of war, won back by Israel when Jordan attacked again with the case still going through the courts.
 

Fredo

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Exactly. Palestinians refusing to pay rent for a house that was always owned by Jews pre 48, then stolen by Jordan in an act of war, won back by Israel when Jordan attacked again with the case still going through the courts.

In East Jerusalem, Jews are allowed to reclaim property that was under Jewish ownership before 1948. But Palestinian families have no legal mechanism to reclaim land they owned in West Jerusalem or anywhere else in Israel.

Israelis defend the policy on the grounds that changing it would undermine the Jewish character of the world’s only Jewish state.

Double standards as usual.
 

Realist81

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can’t say i blame people. easy to take the high road and say you should stop adding to the endless cycle but if i ever had to go through the same i can guarantee i would want my own version of justice.
Definitely, my point was more that this kind of indiscriminate violence only helps Likud and Hamas maintain power.

My heart goes out to that man, if someone killed my son in an airstrike I'd be angry and bereft enough to consider doing unspeakable acts in revenge.
 

Fearless

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Fearless

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Can you pinpoint in the article where it states that Palestinian families have the same right to reclaim their homes in West Jerusalem?
I'm not aware of any difference in legal approach - but I could be wrong. Re your double standards:

In 2015, PA PresidentAbbas amended the law to impose “life imprisonment with forced labor for the duplicitous transfer, leasing or selling of lands to a hostile country or its citizens” while the Palestinians Supreme Fatwa Council declared that selling land to Israelis also violates Islamic law.
 

Fredo

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I'm not aware of any difference in legal approach - but I could be wrong. Re your double standards:

In 2015, PA PresidentAbbas amended the law to impose “life imprisonment with forced labor for the duplicitous transfer, leasing or selling of lands to a hostile country or its citizens” while the Palestinians Supreme Fatwa Council declared that selling land to Israelis also violates Islamic law.
If you are not aware then you cannot share that article and see one side of the story only...

For me personally, I understand your point (from a pro-Jewish perspective) regarding reclaiming the land that was taken by Jordan, but in terms of fairness, the same should be applied to the Western part of Jerusalem for the palestinians. In terms of logic, I think it's all bullshit because your claim means the Christian orthodox are also allowed to reclaim Turkey and re-establish the Byzantine empire, the Mongolians should probably also ask to reclaim half of Europe, the native Indians should reclaim the USA etc...

As for Abbas, Abbas is the end-product of Hamas, you cannot expect him to say anything against their doctrine otherwise they remove him. Hamas staying in charge is key to Israel's expansion and taking over Palestinian lands because that is their alibi, and when I say Israel, I mean the government not necessarily the Jewish people (because some of them do oppose this government or the doctrine behind it, they are just too little in numbers/have no effect in altering electoral campaigns), just to avoid the anti-semitic debate all over again.
 

lefty_jakobz

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I'm not aware of any difference in legal approach - but I could be wrong. Re your double standards:

In 2015, PA PresidentAbbas amended the law to impose “life imprisonment with forced labor for the duplicitous transfer, leasing or selling of lands to a hostile country or its citizens” while the Palestinians Supreme Fatwa Council declared that selling land to Israelis also violates Islamic law.
Do you get paid per word or by post?
 

rotherham_red

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Thought this was an interesting read. How accurate is it, @2cents ?

That's a one-eyed analysis. Al-Husseini was certainly not the leader of the Palestinian Arabs, and he conveniently ignores the history of Zionist terror attacks from the likes of Irgun in the lead up to the creation of Israel.
 

rotherham_red

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The other side of the story, obviously. No situation in the world that involves (simplifying here) two conflict parties could be "summed up perfectly" if just one perspective is shown. You might say the other perspective is flawed/bad/wrong/despiseful (whatever categories you think in here) but it is never irrelevant.
I mean, the other side of this story is a Jewish settler who is relying upon often Biblical and doctored evidence to say that he has the rights a piece of land that a family has lived within for generations. These Jewish settlers are then further backed up by a judiciary and legal system which is heavily skewed in favour of them. Is that the other side? Cos, from my vantage point that isn't making a drastic difference in the perception of the situation to me.
 

esmufc07

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That's a one-eyed analysis. Al-Husseini was certainly not the leader of the Palestinian Arabs, and he conveniently ignores the history of Zionist terror attacks from the likes of Irgun in the lead up to the creation of Israel.
Thanks, it seems so hard to get a balanced view of the conflict.
 

The Corinthian

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What would've happened to that Palestinian family?
Forcefully removed, I'd guess.

I'll add - the Israeli courts have already said there is no recourse for those evicted from Sheikh Jarrah to get their homes back. So, if they stay put, I'd assume they're going to get forcibly removed.
 

Roane

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Definitely, my point was more that this kind of indiscriminate violence only helps Likud and Hamas maintain power.

My heart goes out to that man, if someone killed my son in an airstrike I'd be angry and bereft enough to consider doing unspeakable acts in revenge.
I went to Kashmir when very young, 11 years old, in 1983 and heard a discussion between a man who had taken up arms and joined some movement (too young to understand).

This man apparently had his home attacked by Indian army and seen his 6/7 year old daughter and wife raped and killed by Indian forces in non military clothing

The thing that stuck out to me was his "dead" eyes and insistence that he was shooting first and asking questions later. Iirc correctly it was with regards to Hindu civilians and military and differentiating between the two. As an adult I have had discussions on this with family and friends and although many see it as wrong, as in can't kill civilians I always wonder what the view would be if we/they had seen what he did.

In the 2014 "war" in Palestine I recall a reporter in full protective gear doing a report on the ground when a noise was heard in the distance. He fell to the ground and was visibly scared (rightly so). But what stuck with me was the Palestinian kids around him. Looking amused at his reaction and not even flinching. It was a rocket that had gone off.

What struck me was these kids growing up in these conditions see warfare as a way of life. If they ever picked up arms killing would be like buying an ice cream for my kids. Scary
 

Roane

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I'm not aware of any difference in legal approach - but I could be wrong. Re your double standards:

In 2015, PA PresidentAbbas amended the law to impose “life imprisonment with forced labor for the duplicitous transfer, leasing or selling of lands to a hostile country or its citizens” while the Palestinians Supreme Fatwa Council declared that selling land to Israelis also violates Islamic law.
Imposter earlier that Israelis can take the matter to a court and claim land. Palestinians are not allowed the same process
 

Fearless

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I mean, the other side of this story is a Jewish settler who is relying upon often Biblical and doctored evidence to say that he has the rights a piece of land that a family has lived within for generations. These Jewish settlers are then further backed up by a judiciary and legal system which is heavily skewed in favour of them. Is that the other side? Cos, from my vantage point that isn't making a drastic difference in the perception of the situation to me.
It's a mess, but I'd appreciate if you could leave the religious side out of it - you know as well as I do that many claim it's Muslim land as both a starting and end point.