Israel - Palestine Discussion

2cents

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Thanks - I was reading up on this last night. They’re absolute underhanded cnuts.
I would wait a bit for this story to develop before judging the new Minister for Health on this. He’s from Meretz and has a good reputation. Talks are apparently still ongoing.
 

2cents

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Fair dos.
Reading between the lines of the various reports, I’d guess that he inherited a deal that was already in place but had been held up under the previous gov for whatever reason. Then saw that some of the vaccines were expiring soon and rushed through the deal and announcement before the PA had a chance to prepare its public. Hopefully it gets sorted and nothing goes to waste.
 

2cents

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According to this tweet, these are the earliest photographs of Jerusalem, taken in 1844:




 

Raven

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It's like seeing racist cops in the US. They turn up with the assumption that the black person is in the wrong and act accordingly. It's the same situation here pretty much.
I think this is worse. They seem to be there to provide protection for the criminals.
 

2cents

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Not sure about one or two of his claims here, but the general point is so obvious by now...

‘Open Gaza immediately,’ says manager of Israel-Gaza crossing
The Erez Crossing manager debunks myth that restrictions on Gaza uphold security, believes Israel should engage directly with Hamas.

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-siege-erez-crossing-manager/
 

VorZakone

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He's courting NY's Jewish vote. Unless of course you actually believe an ex NY cop with no links to the middle east wants to retire in the Golan Heights.
Extreme shamelessness but I shouldn't be surprised.
 

Desert Eagle

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The feck? Why would you say that.
To cater to the very powerful Jewish lobby in America. I doubt he knows much about Israel , probably just looked at the interviewer and figured these were the things that would be most beneficial to say.
 

The Corinthian

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Not true, plenty of people sympathize with Israel.
Students in Israel are to form government-funded "covert units" to defend the country on Facebook and Twitter, it's reported.
The Prime Minister's office is reportedly spending around £540,000 recruiting more than 500 students to respond to social media posts calling for boycotts and sanctions against the country, the Jerusalem Post says. Those with foreign language skills who receive these "scholarships" would not identify themselves as being in the pay of the government. Instead, Israel's Ha'aretz newspaper says, the plan is to make the programme appear to be based on the activity of politically-neutral students, with the Prime Minister's Office also hoping to recruit from pro-Israel student groups from around the world.
Israel certainly won't be the first country to pay internet users to defend its interests online. China' so-called 50 Cent Party comprises people who are paid by the Beijing government to help sway public opinion by posting pro-China messages on internet forums. They're named after the sum they're reportedly paid: 50 cents per post, the equivalent of 5p.

——
its an old article but it still happens
 

lefty_jakobz

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Not true, plenty of people sympathize with Israel.
More and more people are seeing israel as an apartheid state.
All over the globe there have been demonstrations against their treatment of the Palestinians.
I was actually shocked to see demos taking place against israel in the US, it wasn't expected at all.
This time it just feels different.
There seems to be a recognition, that wasnt there before, of the horrible policies israel is using against the Palestinians.
 

Raoul

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More and more people are seeing israel as an apartheid state.
All over the globe there have been demonstrations against their treatment of the Palestinians.
I was actually shocked to see demos taking place against israel in the US, it wasn't expected at all.
This time it just feels different.
There seems to be a recognition, that wasnt there before, of the horrible policies israel is using against the Palestinians.
The only people with any power to do anything about it - the US, Israel, and to a much lesser extent, the Egyptians - aren't going to do anything. As in the past, the entire story has faded away from the media cycle and been replaced by other news.
 

neverdie

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The only people with any power to do anything about it - the US, Israel, and to a much lesser extent, the Egyptians - aren't going to do anything. As in the past, the entire story has faded away from the media cycle and been replaced by other news.
The story of the "war" has faded away because of the ceasefire but the treatment of the story in the media cycle was markedly different this time. Every new flare up will be a retrial of Israeli apartheid until they find a solution. That's a big difference.
 

Raoul

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The story of the "war" has faded away because of the ceasefire but the treatment of the story in the media cycle was markedly different this time. Every new flare up will be a retrial of Israeli apartheid until they find a solution. That's a big difference.
There's no "retrial "of Israel since there's no change in US or Israeli policy. Social media campaigns quickly fizzle away as the news cycle changes to newer stories. The only way for any tangible change would be if Israel changes its own policy, which won't happen as long as Hamas are around.
 

neverdie

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There's no "retrial "of Israel since there's no change in US or Israeli policy. Social media campaigns quickly fizzle away as the news cycle changes to newer stories. The only way for any tangible change would be if Israel changes its own policy, which won't happen as long as Hamas are around.
I mean a retrial in the court of public opinion, the consensus of which has undergone a paradigm shift. I think Israel will change its own policy because it's in their own interest long-term. And you're right that Israel/US/Egypt are the only state actors who count right now but public opinion and consensus is what drives state action (in theory) in at least two of these countries. Small storms can be weathered, but a prolonged saga over some years (and I don't see how the Palestinian situation can go differently) will have impact at the level of state decision making. That's true even within Israel. If it gets worse and worse we have no idea how Israelis will respond electorally.

So it's a waiting game as to whether public opinion shapes policy but to write it off happening would be naive seeing as that's why states all over the world make use of propaganda in the first place: to control public opinion in their favour.
 

africanspur

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I'm not so sure that its really changing all that much or, more importantly, changing that much where it actually matters.

My friends/colleagues who are pro-Palestine are still the same. My friends/colleagues who lean towards Israel have not really changed their opinions. My Jewish friends/colleagues who are Zionist but would class themselves as liberal continue to agonise over the situation.

I happened to walk through the protest in London a few weeks ago and seemed like pretty much seemed like the same groups of people that would turn up when I was still attending these protests. Quite a bit of Islamic chanting which I found quite disappointing and exclusionary.

I'd love to believe the tide of opinion is changing but I can't help but feel that social media bubbles help us feel things that aren't necessarily true. I don't use much anymore other than YT and the algorithms are intolerable. I watch 2 or 3 videos of a certain topic and my entire feed is flooded with that.
 

africanspur

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Students in Israel are to form government-funded "covert units" to defend the country on Facebook and Twitter, it's reported.
The Prime Minister's office is reportedly spending around £540,000 recruiting more than 500 students to respond to social media posts calling for boycotts and sanctions against the country, the Jerusalem Post says. Those with foreign language skills who receive these "scholarships" would not identify themselves as being in the pay of the government. Instead, Israel's Ha'aretz newspaper says, the plan is to make the programme appear to be based on the activity of politically-neutral students, with the Prime Minister's Office also hoping to recruit from pro-Israel student groups from around the world.
Israel certainly won't be the first country to pay internet users to defend its interests online. China' so-called 50 Cent Party comprises people who are paid by the Beijing government to help sway public opinion by posting pro-China messages on internet forums. They're named after the sum they're reportedly paid: 50 cents per post, the equivalent of 5p.

——
its an old article but it still happens
Of course it still happens but I think the point is that not everyone who sympathises with Israel is a paid Hasbara operative and believing so is not particularly conducive to changing peoples' opinions on the whole conflict imo.
 

neverdie

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I'm not so sure that its really changing all that much or, more importantly, changing that much where it actually matters.
There have definitely been changes. A survey of non-social media tells us that attitudes have shifted, and HRW/B'Tselem/Israeli ambassadors classifying the situation as apartheid is novel. The situation will only get worse, too, which means all of these problems of eviction and lack of human rights will recur exponentially unless something is done to relieve the pressure in both Gaza and the WB.

Social media bubbles are misleading but so are personal testimonies (a survey of friends is the same thing as a judgment made of a news feed). Sticking to actual metrics of public opinion such as internal Israeli dissent, lack of support for Israel in the US except amongst the Evangelical right, and the international community's media/legislative agenda is the only way to go. Mainstream news were not discussing Israel and "apartheid" in the same sentence only five or six years ago. Now they can't avoid it. That's a change which mirrors deteriorating facts on the ground as well shifts in public opinion more broadly.
 

2cents

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Sticking to actual metrics of public opinion such as internal Israeli dissent, lack of support for Israel in the US except amongst the Evangelical right, and the international community's media/legislative agenda is the only way to go.
Israeli “internal dissent” has been largely directed at Netanyahu, a convenient and worthy villain for sure - but without him they would very likely currently have their most right-wing government in their history in power right now. I’m not sure how else to measure it other than by elections, and there’s been a lot of those in recent years. The results aren’t promising for anyone looking for change from within, although there’s a small chance the inclusion of the Arab parties as legitimate players may provoke unforeseen results. That’s where I’d pin my hope, but it’s slim.

I’d be interested to see evidence of this dramatic drop in support for Israel in the US (outside the evangelicals). For sure elements of the Democratic Party have found themselves increasingly uncomfortable with the blatant nationalist triumphalism of the Netanyahu years, and his blunt partisanship in US politics. But Lapid appears quite conscious of and concerned with this, and a few years of his face-friendly bridge-building (assuming this coalition holds) may stem that particular tide, though policies are unlikely to change in any meaningful way. Meanwhile stuff like this proceeds:


As for the “international media”, I’m not sure I find whatever change you perceive to be particularly significant, and I’d wonder how we’d ever be able to measure its significance in any case?

I’d also question why these are the “only way to go”? There are surely other important factors at play. There has never been a time in its history that Israel has been less isolated and less under-pressure diplomatically. From Sudan to China, Israel has been strengthening its international position and standing. Even the EU response to the latest crisis was so blatantly pro-Israeli, especially when compared with its response to previous rounds such as the Second Intifada. The global right-wing shift of recent years may not be irreversible, but it has certainly strengthened Israel’s hand in ways that probably don’t seem explicitly apparent among the Western left.
 

neverdie

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Israeli “internal dissent” has been largely directed at Netanyahu, a convenient and worthy villain for sure - but without him they would very likely currently have their most right-wing government in their history in power right now. I’m not sure how else to measure it other than by elections, and there’s been a lot of those in recent years. The results aren’t promising for anyone looking for change from within, although there’s a small chance the inclusion of the Arab parties as legitimate players may provoke unforeseen results. That’s where I’d pin my hope, but it’s slim.
I'm characterizing "internal dissent" in terms of Israel's political class acknowledging an internal state of apartheid.

https://www.sapeople.com/2021/06/08/israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-say-its-apartheid/

The inclusion of the minor Arab parties is interesting but I'm more concerned with Israeli attitudes about Israeli policy, and even then from within a specific class. More research needed here but time will tell.


I’d be interested to see evidence of this dramatic drop in support for Israel in the US (outside the evangelicals). For sure elements of the Democratic Party have found themselves increasingly uncomfortable with the blatant nationalist triumphalism of the Netanyahu years, and his blunt partisanship in US politics. But Lapid appears quite conscious of and concerned with this, and a few years of his face-friendly bridge-building (assuming this coalition holds) may stem that particular tide, though policies are unlikely to change in any meaningful way. Meanwhile stuff like this proceeds:
Decline in overall American support for Israel and corresponding rise in favourable attitudes toward Palestinians:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-p...-israel-declines-to-lowest-point-in-a-decade/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/340331/americans-favor-israel-warming-palestinians.aspx

As for the “international media”, I’m not sure I find whatever change you perceive to be particularly significant, and I’d wonder how we’d ever be able to measure its significance in any case?
You don't find large media companies mentioning the terms "Israel" and "apartheid" significant? I don't recall that being common practice in the past. We can measure its significance by a combination of qualitative and quantitative methods. It would require research analysis but it isn't overly difficult to produce a study of the media landscape that tries to comprehend shifts in framing when dealing with Israel/Palestine (the shift in frame, such as the more explicit acknowledgement of asymmetry, hints at a shift in opinion). Will have to wait for such studies to take account of the latest hostilities but my guess is the shift is significant.

I’d also question why these are the “only way to go”? There are surely other important factors at play. There has never been a time in its history that Israel has been less isolated and less under-pressure diplomatically. From Sudan to China, Israel has been strengthening its international position and standing. Even the EU response to the latest crisis was so blatantly pro-Israeli, especially when compared with its response to previous rounds such as the Second Intifada. The global right-wing shift of recent years may not be irreversible, but it has certainly strengthened Israel’s hand in ways that probably don’t seem explicitly apparent among the Western left.
Indexes of public opinion as mined through public discourse are the only way to go insofar as we're talking about public opinion and attitudes. Israel cultivating economic ties with Sudan, China, and whoever else, is not indicative of public opinion but rather indicates economic pragmatism. Was the EU as blatantly pro-Israel as you suggest? They typically are, but I think that might require more analysis. We must also remember that China forced that UN Security Council maneuver which hints at economic, strategic, political, and cultural interests not being monolithic in Chinese terms.

I'd be interested to see your analysis of Israel's position as being more solid now than it was prior to May of this year, though.
 

Raoul

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I'm characterizing "internal dissent" in terms of Israel's political class acknowledging an internal state of apartheid.

https://www.sapeople.com/2021/06/08/israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-say-its-apartheid/

The inclusion of the minor Arab parties is interesting but I'm more concerned with Israeli attitudes about Israeli policy, and even then from within a specific class. More research needed here but time will tell.




Decline in overall American support for Israel and corresponding rise in favourable attitudes toward Palestinians:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-p...-israel-declines-to-lowest-point-in-a-decade/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/340331/americans-favor-israel-warming-palestinians.aspx



You don't find large media companies mentioning the terms "Israel" and "apartheid" significant? I don't recall that being common practice in the past. We can measure its significance by a combination of qualitative and quantitative methods. It would require research analysis but it isn't overly difficult to produce a study of the media landscape that tries to comprehend shifts in framing when dealing with Israel/Palestine (the shift in frame, such as the more explicit acknowledgement of asymmetry, hints at a shift in opinion). Will have to wait for such studies to take account of the latest hostilities but my guess is the shift is significant.



Indexes of public opinion as mined through public discourse are the only way to go insofar as we're talking about public opinion and attitudes. Israel cultivating economic ties with Sudan, China, and whoever else, is not indicative of public opinion but rather indicates economic pragmatism. Was the EU as blatantly pro-Israel as you suggest? They typically are, but I think that might require more analysis. We must also remember that China forced that UN Security Council maneuver which hints at economic, strategic, political, and cultural interests not being monolithic in Chinese terms.

I'd be interested to see your analysis of Israel's position as being more solid now than it was prior to May of this year, though.
The slight decline in US support as suggested in one of your links could simply be anti-Trump sentiment creeping into small segments of the public. A vast majority of people in the US neither neither know about or care about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Some of the numbers may also be reflective of a bit of organic drift in American society gradually becoming a bit less homogenous and more multicultural, which is going to cause variances in public attitudes towards on range of social and political issues. None of this will change US policy and so it won't in any way affect Israel or the Palestinians.

The US aside, the only thing that can move the needle in the conflict are the Israelis and Hamas, which isn't likely given the current direction both sides are headed in. In fact, we are probably more likely to see a full on war where Israel invades Gaza to expel Hamas than we are a peace deal.