Could you post some quotes from the last few pages of anyone saying any of the following, excluding the lobbying point?
Do you think it's also racist to say that the Saudis for instance have a disproportionate influence on American policy?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Do you think it's also racist to say that the Saudis for instance have a disproportionate influence on American policy?
This is a WUM post, surely?
The Israelis will never accept that and to be totally honest, I don't blame them.
That isn't really the only solution though. They do things now which would not have been acceptable just a few decades ago and the Arabs have given up seemingly on any kind of sustained pressure.
If Israel takes more land, it won't be with Palestinians with equal rights, that's for sure.
I'm sure you must have heard it a thousand times, but your posts in these threads are great. Much appreciated, keep it up.
There's a great deal of support amongst Israelis and Palestinians for land swaps and something akin to pre-67 lines. Also growing support amongst Palestinians for a one state solution, but this would not be feasible with hardliners on each side.
The only barrier to a two-state solution is the remittance and removal of settlements. Compensate settlers and withdraw to a demilitarized zone. It's very doable but it lacks any kind of international pressure.
Of all the problems in Israel/Palestine, settler colonialism which has continued post-1967 is really the only one that bears attention. It lacks support even amongst vast amounts of Israelis.
I don't think the Saudis are considered in the same way as 'The Jew' which seems to encompass both the people and Israel. I don't think it's true in any event, even if people were to say it. [in either case]. It's a standard anti semitic trope to claim the Jews exercise power on global politics etc.
Here's a few:
- Investigated by who Einstein? Israeli investigators? The Supreme Court (again the Israeli supreme court) are forcing residents out of Sheikh Jarrah. They don't give a shit if their IDF are killing kids. Use your head, ffs.
Read: Jews/Israelis dont give a shit, unless it's their own kids.
- Lovely people, the Israelis.
Read: The Jews. As they obviously mean the Jews in Israel, not the Muslims.
- The holocaust was a genocide against The Jews by the Nazis. Isn't it what the Israeli government is trying to do? Wipe off the Palestinians off the face of the Earth? Different period, different methods? The moral right to question The Chinese or The Russians by the US, EU or the UK is now lost.
Read: The Nazis did this to the Jews. Now the Jews are trying to do it to the Palestinians (Why bring up the Holocaust at all if not directing this at jews - that was nothing to do with the Israeli Government)
- No you can't say that or Rachel Riley will put your face on a T-Shirt.
Read: The Jews will shame you.
What a fecked up state. Nothing on CNN about it either.
I will never respect or consider anyone from Israel as having a nation. Illegal occupier of Palestine and scum.
Read: Jewish scum.
-Standard Zionist response to any criticism of Israel wrongdoings.
-Tell me you’re Pro-Zionist without telling me you’re Pro-Zionist.
Read: The mention of anti semitism of a modicum of support for Israel makes you a Zionist scum, a twat, and whatever other insults they threw at him.
- All this cause of some pro Israel lobby that has outsized influence.
Any other country and Israel would have been under sanctions for decades.
Read: The Jews are too powerful. They control the US government.
Ive seen way too many dead and mutilated children on twitter the past 24 hrs. feck the Israeli government.
Jerusalem and the refugees are also major obstacles. Perhaps more so than the settlements.
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Simply stating the truth about the Israeli Government's lobbying is not racist whatever tropes you want to throw around. But I am sure the lobbies love the way you can call any genuine discussion or opinion about their lobbying racist as a means to keep people quiet.
This actually really annoys me. Someone stating that the Pro-Israel lobby has outsized influence, which is actually verifiable fact. This is antisemitism? It's absolute BS.
Simply stating the truth about the Israeli Government's lobbying is not racist whatever tropes you want to throw around. But I am sure the lobbies love the way you can call any genuine discussion or opinion about their lobbying racist as a means to keep people quiet.
What in the feck did I just read? Truly brain melting.
Or, read poster reading into things which aren't there?
Also, the Israeli lobby is powerful but only because Israel operates as a vassal state for the United States. Israel does what the US wants it to with regard to Iran. A mutually beneficial relationship. Israel gets funding and ideological protection and the US gets a proxy army to do lots of its dirty work.
It's because you're bringing anti-Semitism into a debate in which it has no place. You're drawing false equivalences. If others have done that too, with Nazism, or whatever, it doesn't make your attempts any more correct. And then there's the fact. unpalatable though it is, that anti-Semitism has been weaponized by certain parts of the Israeli state itself.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/investigations/2017/1/10/the-lobby-young-friends-of-israel-part-1/
Have a look at that. Then there's the whole Corbyn smear which was about as manufactured as you could wish for. That served British/American/Israeli state interests as Corbyn was, as everyone knows, quite against colonialism.
But you're literally "reading into" words and intentions which aren't there but you suspect as being there and subsequently diverting attention from asymmetrical violence carried out by the Israeli state in the past week.
Yes, that's true. I can only see Jerusalem as being a shared capital which suits neither side. Israel won't give up its share.
Some disgusting deflection in this thread.
Read: Reaching deflective nonsense.
The Israeli regime along with their US counterparts are the biggest terrorists in the world. I'm not surprised one bit with what's happening to the Palestinian people.
The deflection, my word. End the occupation, end apartheid.
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The occupying, racism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing really should be addressed at some point imho.
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Ok. Then how would you distinguish between any legitimate criticism of the Israeli state and use of this as an attack on Jews as a whole? Or would you consider the substitution of Israel or Israeli for jew or jewish in any critical (or even non-critcal?) usage?
The issue I have with the reasoning above is that, whilst it is undoubtedly true that there will be both conscious and unconscious anti-semitism masked in use of language similar to that you have highlighted in your post, using the logic you apply it is difficult to see how any sort of conversation about Israeli policy and behaviour can occur without collapsing into accusations of anti-semitism.
For instance: the final point you highlight regarding US support and funding for Israel. How might that be expressed without being interpreted as veiled anti-semitism? What language is immune to the substitution of "Israel" for "the jews"?
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This zeroes in on my issue with BBC reporting and their one eyed ness. Really good from Zomlot that he called them out on it.
First thing on CNN is about Cheney. This was the same when I checked yesterday. The media coverage is pathetic. If precious, more valuable, western children were being slaughtered instead we wouldn't hear the end of it on the news along with condemnations.
Heck, even posters like yourself who are swift to action on threads regarding cartoon protests are no where to be seen.
Classic reducing it to a "conflict" sort of statement. Enjoy defending a criminal "state".
9 children killed. That is disgusting and not defendable.
I've emailed my local MP. It's sod all but it's impossible to read and see what's going on and not want to do something.
It's a really difficult question to address honestly. For example, in many places [such as this thread] I feel there's a constant undercurrent of accepted anti-semitism. Nobody will talk about it, but it is just 'as is.' On the other hand, you have Israelis jumping up and down claiming anti semitism at every criticism.
As an example: I'm from brexit britain, but I'm not a brexiter or anti immigration. Say I was from Israel and was Jewish, no matter my views I'd just be viewed as 'the Israeli' (synonymous with 'the Jew') - There seems to be very little effort at differentiation between the average Israeli who wants to live in his country safe and secure, and the one who wants to take everything from the Palestinians. Unless you are an 'activist' and 'against israel' you're just the 'scum.' And that obviously is bucketed with 'The Jew,' as Israelis are Jews. And any Jew who has any sort of support for Israel also becomes, 'the scum.' Whereas I'm lucky, not every European I meet sees me as a far right brexit loon. Not every American is stereotyped as a Trump loving loon. Not every Chinese person who is supporting China is 'scum'
So on the final point: Criticising US support/funding for Israel, (whilst in my opinion hypocritical), isn't anti-semitic. (to me). Nor is choosing not to consume products of the country. The anti-semitic aspect would be pushing a narrative that the Israel lobby control the US government, and that Jews have outsized influence over the US or financial systems. This is simply conspiracy theory nonsense. Although, if one was simply targetting Israel, one could reasonably ask why he was targetting US support of Israel and not 100 other nasty regimes like say, Turkey or Saudi Arabia.
Targetting specific policies of the Israeli government is how I tend to do it. Criticise settlements, overreach, overreaction by the military etc etc. (For example: If 200 rockets are fired at cities from known civilian centres, is it acceptable to simply respond with airstrikes and feck the lives of the 9 kids. In my opinion it's not.) Is it acceptable to kick people out of their homes of many decades? They do a lot wrong, especially under the corrupt criminal that leads them now. But I react in the same way as I do with say China; I criticise the government and the machinery, not damn an entire country and culture.
Same and it's the right thing to do - I'd encourage you to get your friends and family to write to their MP also. Here's the reply from my MP...
I don't believe it's anti semitic, no. The Palestinians have genuine grievances, and a right to protest. The Israelis have provoked and handled it very badly. He criticised the Israeli government, not the people or existence of the State of Israel.
He should have condemned the Hamas rocket fire though and understood it's a concern of Israelis. (My stake in this is as follows. When I was a teen, I was in love with an Israeli girl. She died in a nightclub suicide bombing. Many Israelis are terrified of this, so support such horrible and disgusting retaliation like airstrikes. It hardens people, on both sides. It entrenches positions against the 'other side'.)
Although he's also right she approached it wrong. Hamas [And Islamic Jihad] simply took advantage of the unrest to further their agenda. The Israeli provocation empowered them, yet again.
Absolute nonsense. So annoying saying "the Israeli" basically means "the jew"? The only Israeli thing you're doing here is trying to suppress people from even speaking up against the murder of 9 children. And trust me, any Chinese person who defends or has an apologetic tone towards Xinxiang atrocity would be labelled as such.
You came to this thread making excuses for Israels action as if there was some rouge bad apples who stormed al-aqsa and now you don't even want to get criticized. This has nothing to do with anti-semitism and it's just you're attempt to dilute the topic.
I've got to say of all the things I've read on the Caf over the years, suggesting that if you substitute one word for another in peoples posts, it shines a light on an undercurrent of antisemitism has to be up there as the best case of reducto ad absurdum i've seen.
Absolute argument winner that. Up there with "well you can prove anything with facts can't you?"
Absolute argument winner that. Up there with "well you can prove anything with facts can't you?"
Can you pinpoint any examples? If so you should flag it since any form of bigoted rhetoric on this forum should and would be dealt with.
Where do you see examples of Israeli's not being differentiated? From what I can see the condemnation seems to be directed towards the Israeli government and settlers who see fit to displace and uproot Palestinians to make room for themselves.
Have a look at the Jamal Kashoggi thread, or even any United thread alluding to United's next potential owners and you'll see what people think of the Saudi regime. Having said that I don't see it being racist to point out the influential role certain lobbies play (I'm not humouring the conspiracy theory behind the international Jewry seemingly manipulating the markets in their favour, I consider that anti-semitic nonsense).
Again I'm not seeing a blanket attack on Israeli culture and their way of life. The condemnation (at least on this forum) seems to be reserved towards the Israeli government and the ultra zionists hellbent on their settlement program at the expense of Palestinians, as well as expressing a frustration with the apathetic sentiments being echoed by major western powers.
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Posted above in that same thread. His reply was to my examples. I don't believe it needs flagged though; it's a 'normal' undercurrent and in an emotive thread. It wouldn't change any views in a positive way to report it. I also feel comparisons to the holocaust are directly anti-semitic.
Example the poster almost directly above you (shamans less than 12 hours ago) - Fairly common view I'd imagine here. Nobody even blinked.
"I will never respect or consider anyone from Israel as having a nation. Illegal occupier of Palestine and scum."
Oh yeah, people definitely target other wrongs; it simply seems targetting of Israel is somewhat disproportionate. I agree with the bolded, though I think in general [most] lobbies are less effective than people imagine. What *is* racist, would be to claim that Jews are all powerful lobbyists because they control the levers of government behind the scenes.
We see it differently then. I see [here] many people want the state of Israel to cease existing (either by force or implosion or a '1 state solution', in favour of a Palestinian controlled country. Not everybody obviously, but a significant number.
Tbf I saw Emily talking with the Israeli spokesperson or Ambassador last night on Newsnight and she gave her no room at all either, really made the spokesperson squirm. Emily completely went against the spokespersons attempt to use the child shield line and it got pretty heated.
It's hard for the BBC because they have to try maintain neutrality, especially given how strong the Israeli lobby is within the UK.
You have a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding the topic at hand. A one state solution has been touted by Israelis for decades (and some Palestinians, particularly in recent years as the two-state solution became less and less viable due to settler colonialism).
Educate yourself and you might not have to project and infer what doesn't exist except in your own subjective reading.
It would be akin to claiming the Caf is racist by replacing the word "Martial" with the "black man" in his player performance thread. It's absolute, 100%, unbridled nonsense.