Israel - Palestine Discussion

Fearless

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Seems they cant see having two different laws in country is the literal definition of Apartheid. Theres really no racism in Israel or the world unless its against Israelis it would seem.
Please provide an exact list of the shared identical policies that apartheid SA has with Israel re your accusation.

The key word being 'identical'.

Don't give me any 'in spirit' bollox.
 

Carolina Red

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Please provide an exact list of the shared identical policies that apartheid SA has with Israel re your accusation.

The key word being 'identical'.

Don't give me any 'in spirit' bollox.
Once again, your attempts to alter history fall short of convincing...

International criminal law has developed two crimes against humanity for situations of systematic discrimination and repression: apartheid and persecution. Crimes against humanity stand among the most odious crimes in international law.

The international community has over the years detached the term apartheid from its original South African context, developed a universal legal prohibition against its practice, and recognized it as a crime against humanity with definitions provided in the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (“Apartheid Convention”) and the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The crime against humanity of persecution, also set out in the Rome Statute, the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights on racial, ethnic, and other grounds, grew out of the post-World War II trials and constitutes one of the most serious international crimes, of the same gravity as apartheid.

Apartheid as it is presently defined:

The Apartheid Convention defines the crime against humanity of apartheid as “inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them.” The Rome Statute of the ICC adopts a similar definition: “inhumane acts… committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.” The Rome Statute does not further define what constitutes an “institutionalized regime.”

The crime of apartheid under the Apartheid Convention and Rome Statute consists of three primary elements: an intent to maintain a system of domination by one racial group over another; systematic oppression by one racial group over another; and one or more inhumane acts, as defined, carried out on a widespread or systematic basis pursuant to those policies.

Among the inhumane acts identified in either the Convention or the Rome Statute are “forcible transfer,” “expropriation of landed property,” “creation of separate reserves and ghettos,” and denial of the “the right to leave and to return to their country, [and] the right to a nationality.”

The Rome Statute identifies the crime against humanity of persecution as “the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights contrary to international law by reason of the identity of the group or collectivity,” including on racial, national, or ethnic grounds. Customary international law identifies the crime of persecution as consisting of two primary elements: (1) severe abuses of fundamental rights committed on a widespread or systematic basis, and (2) with discriminatory intent.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...orities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution#
 

Fearless

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Once again, your attempts to alter history fall short of convincing...

International criminal law has developed two crimes against humanity for situations of systematic discrimination and repression: apartheid and persecution. Crimes against humanity stand among the most odious crimes in international law.

The international community has over the years detached the term apartheid from its original South African context, developed a universal legal prohibition against its practice, and recognized it as a crime against humanity with definitions provided in the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (“Apartheid Convention”) and the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The crime against humanity of persecution, also set out in the Rome Statute, the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights on racial, ethnic, and other grounds, grew out of the post-World War II trials and constitutes one of the most serious international crimes, of the same gravity as apartheid.

Apartheid as it is presently defined:

The Apartheid Convention defines the crime against humanity of apartheid as “inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them.” The Rome Statute of the ICC adopts a similar definition: “inhumane acts… committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.” The Rome Statute does not further define what constitutes an “institutionalized regime.”

The crime of apartheid under the Apartheid Convention and Rome Statute consists of three primary elements: an intent to maintain a system of domination by one racial group over another; systematic oppression by one racial group over another; and one or more inhumane acts, as defined, carried out on a widespread or systematic basis pursuant to those policies.

Among the inhumane acts identified in either the Convention or the Rome Statute are “forcible transfer,” “expropriation of landed property,” “creation of separate reserves and ghettos,” and denial of the “the right to leave and to return to their country, [and] the right to a nationality.”

The Rome Statute identifies the crime against humanity of persecution as “the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights contrary to international law by reason of the identity of the group or collectivity,” including on racial, national, or ethnic grounds. Customary international law identifies the crime of persecution as consisting of two primary elements: (1) severe abuses of fundamental rights committed on a widespread or systematic basis, and (2) with discriminatory intent.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...orities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution#
https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/336519/israel-apartheid-the-big-black-and-white-lie/
 

Carolina Red

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That article is right up there with the “definition” of antisemitism including criticism of Israeli government policy.

Specifically, this is absolute bullshit
HRW, therefore, was wrong to claim that “The international community has over the years detached the term apartheid from its original South African context.” That term’s potency, and its sting to Israelis and Jews, stems from the South African analogy: From the oppressive, anti-democratic mechanisms required to enforce the crime to the regime’s well-deserved end.

While promising “detailed legal analysis” of the apartheid charge, HRW actually proved Israel’s innocence. According to the report, “The crime of apartheid under the Apartheid Convention and Rome Statute consists of three primary elements: an intent to maintain a system of domination by one racial group over another; systematic oppression by one racial group over another; and one or more inhumane acts, as defined, carried out on a widespread or systematic basis pursuant to those policies.”

Nowhere does HRW prove that either Israeli Jews or Palestinians constitute a “racial group.” HRW simply assumes that in a world obsessed with race, those who seem weak and popular are “Black” or “Brown” while those who seem strong and unpopular are “white.”
1) HRW clearly showed the definitions of Apartheid. I posted them above from the report. What they’re claiming as “wrong to report” is something that has quite literally happened. They’re pulling a “you in this thread” and conveniently ignoring aspects of reality that they don’t like.

2) It would take some special kinda stupid to not see the difference in ethnicities going on in the Arab-Israeli conflict and then type something like what the author of that article wrote.


By the way, you gonna respond to the rebuttal about article 80 or have you given up on that line of propaganda?
 
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2mufc0

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Sorry that's horseshit and you've just avoided answering the questions. Q3 and 4 weren't even about the past, they're about the present day situation.

What's happened is a travesty of justice, and if you were on the receiving end of it, you would, as expected, resist the notion of your land that you've lived on being taken away and being given to a foreigner just because they're Jewish. Similar to the BLM protests last year, in the fall out there was some accountability by the slave trade nations. This acceptance of accountability goes some way. Until the Israeli or British accept some accountability for what they've done, this cycle of violence will just carry on. If IDF apologists like yourself are too blinkered to accept that as well, then you're just part of the problem.

The creation of Israel was done on false premises, bribery, and threats and it's a joke that people think saying "well, it's done now just deal with it" is an acceptable excuse. Why should anyone have to accept it? Does anyone else accept their land being stolen?

Do you think the evictions in Sheikh Jarrah for illegal settlers should just be accepted?
It's just an easy cop out to a very uncomfortable question for the apologists.
 

2cents

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@2cents @berbatrick How can that be applied now though? In a modern world, is Jabotinsky still correct that there can be no peace and no acceleration of a state of affairs that could entail it? Open ended questions...
Apologies for the long post:

My opinion is that there is no foreseeable Palestinian acceptance of Zionism as it has existed up to now. The Palestinians are a beleaguered, oppressed, exiled people. If that was the end of it you might expect them to be compelled to submit to colonization and take what they can (e.g. a “two-state solution” which is really a surrender in which they are entirely at the mercy of the stronger party).

However they are also the proud inheritors of an Islamo-Arab civilization and identity that ties them to hundreds of millions of their neighbors - by language, culture, religion, and they believe by a shared destiny. So their dignity is not simply dependent on survival on a section of their homeland, but tied to the fortunes of the broader Islamo-Arab peoples. These may be divided among themselves today (and throughout history), but like the Palestinians and indeed much of the non-Western world, they are also striving in their own ways for dignity in a world shaped to a large degree by Western power. So the Palestinians feel that they need only wait for history to turn until the various machinations which divide them from their brethren near and far are defeated, and a coalition emerges which can undo the wrongs committed against them (the Israelis understand this instinctively, which is why they fight every escalation with the Palestinians with one eye on Tehran; or Baghdad and Cairo in the past; or Ankara in the future?).

This may make it seem like a fatalistic clash of civilizations scenario, whereby the Palestinians are too tied to their history to concede what’s necessary for peace. But this is no more true than it is for Israeli Jews who will remain Zionists tied to their own history for the foreseeable future. And I do not mean to suggest that the Islamo-Arabic civilization I spoke of above, or indeed Zionism for that matter, are static unchanging concepts. They do enshrine some core identitarian concepts and symbols, but they have also proved adaptable and pragmatic under different conditions, with shifting sets of priorities and politics. And there are many people who reject, are uncomfortable with, or dilute the claims to their loyalties made by these concepts. If a new, unforeseen form of politics, free of the nation-state model, were to emerge globally, we might see Zionism evolve in its direction (or transform completely, since Zionism is itself a product of the age of the nation-state), and hard-edged territorialism become less of a priority for Israelis. In the Middle East we could see the nation-state model supplanted by novel forms of Islamic political solidarity which make space for Jewish life just as the classic forms did to a relative degree in medieval times, only with a more modern, liberal, and egalitarian quality. Of course things could go many other ways. For Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs to co-exist peacefully under any new circumstances, however, will always require an honest account of the past.

But I get that this will seem like fatalistic, self-indulgent claptrap to many on here, given what’s actually happening right now. There is much the Israelis can and need to do to improve the lives of Palestinians regardless of the seemingly intractable nature of their conflict. That they have not done so is the primary, immediate cause of this current conflagration IMO.
 

VidaRed

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There will only be peace and mutual acceptance if mutually assured destruction is guaranteed and sane people are at the helm of affairs. I suggest to give nukes to both of them and make peaceniks the prime minister of both countries and 1967 borders restored. Im sure thats a satisfactory resolution, neither side will be entirely happy with that but neither side got fully fecked over and thats what a deal is supposed to be.
 
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Mr Pigeon

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It's difficult to understand what's going on when articles report the "conflict" like this.

The conflict began on Monday and followed weeks of spiralling Israeli-Palestinian tension in East Jerusalem. The increased hostilities culminated in clashes at a holy site revered by both Muslims and Jews. Hamas - the militant Islamist group which rules Gaza - began firing rockets after warning Israel to withdraw from the site, triggering retaliatory air strikes.
"It all started when he punched me back."
 

lefty_jakobz

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Please provide an exact list of the shared identical policies that apartheid SA has with Israel re your accusation.

The key word being 'identical'.

Don't give me any 'in spirit' bollox.
One rule for one people another rule for the other...

Palestinians cant travel on certain roads only Israelis can

Israel is an apartheid state you trying to whitewash it wont change that.

The problem Israel now has is the groundswell of people realising that Palestinians are getting so badly treated, after the forced evictions and the attack on the people praying in the mosque has become a major PR disaster to the supposed only democracy in the region.
 

lefty_jakobz

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Dock workers in Livorno Italy, today refuse to load a ship with supplies bound for Israel, they stand for solidarity with Palestinians
 

dumbo

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If the concept of Never Again is to have any instructional value upon the future, then ethnic persecution from the past must be invoked as a warning of the dangers.

Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, American genocide, the African holocaust, British and European colonialism, genocide and fascism.

The Israeli government and its supporters (who are often not Jewish) engage in ongoing and blatant ethnic persecution, of the killings and displacement variety. It is evident in the actions and language used.

Invoking the Nazi regime can accompany anti-Semitism and can be a form of anti-Semitism itself (both seem to exist in this thread at times). It can also be used clumsily and inaccurately. It can also be a useful comparison and an alert to the extreme depths of depravity that specific ideologies can lead to. I get that it can be frustrating sometimes to separate the legitimate criticism of Israel from the anti-Semitism couched within it, just as it is frustrating when any and all criticism of Israel is entirely dismissed as anti-Semitic. That's language for you.

I don't give much weight to lousy, poorly reasoned, politically partisan definitions.
 

lefty_jakobz

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The other two guys are like, "What are you on?"
Anyone critiquing Israel for their various violations is immediately called an anti-semite. Even when that person is of Jewish origin. Its actually crazy.

I saw the Israeli ambassador to the UK on Sky give an interview where she said we have to go to shelters because the missiles are coming we cant go about our daily life...I bet the Palestinians would give anything to take their children and old ones a bomb shelter instead of waiting for a bomb to drop on their houses!

What happened to all the moderate voices in Israel? Where are the Israelis who dont want to watch the innocent children of Palestine being blown to smithereens because their corrupt prime minister is waging and ethnic cleanse of a people?
 

Amir

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What happened to all the moderate voices in Israel? Where are the Israelis who dont want to watch the innocent children of Palestine being blown to smithereens because their corrupt prime minister is waging and ethnic cleanse of a people?
We're here, just not heard enough. Some fear to talk, those who do are mostly on the periphery of things. Most of the media toes the line of the right wing - which is the majority - and avoids confrontation on that matter as it's only interested in ratings and income. There are also more and more representative of the right - or simply Netanyahu supporters - in the media and panels.

And yes, tons of Israeli's also don't care. Some of them see anyone who isn't Jewish as a lesser person. Others can't let of the bombings and terror attacks following the Oslo agreement.
 

calodo2003

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We're here, just not heard enough. Some fear to talk, those who do are mostly on the periphery of things. Most of the media toes the line of the right wing - which is the majority - and avoids confrontation on that matter as it's only interested in ratings and income. There are also more and more representative of the right - or simply Netanyahu supporters - in the media and panels.

And yes, tons of Israeli's also don't care. Some of them see anyone who isn't Jewish as a lesser person. Others can't let of the bombings and terror attacks following the Oslo agreement.
Hmmm. Interesting.
 

Fluctuation0161

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We're here, just not heard enough. Some fear to talk, those who do are mostly on the periphery of things. Most of the media toes the line of the right wing - which is the majority - and avoids confrontation on that matter as it's only interested in ratings and income. There are also more and more representative of the right - or simply Netanyahu supporters - in the media and panels.

And yes, tons of Israeli's also don't care. Some of them see anyone who isn't Jewish as a lesser person. Others can't let of the bombings and terror attacks following the Oslo agreement.
Sounds like the UK to some lesser degree.

Reading some of the posts by Fearless and some others is both truly saddening and concerning, of equal measure.
 

lefty_jakobz

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We're here, just not heard enough. Some fear to talk, those who do are mostly on the periphery of things. Most of the media toes the line of the right wing - which is the majority - and avoids confrontation on that matter as it's only interested in ratings and income. There are also more and more representative of the right - or simply Netanyahu supporters - in the media and panels.

And yes, tons of Israeli's also don't care. Some of them see anyone who isn't Jewish as a lesser person. Others can't let of the bombings and terror attacks following the Oslo agreement.
Is this latest conflict just a way of Netanyahu trying to stave off the corruption case and hold onto power? I mean is it more politically motivated?
 

Amir

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Is this latest conflict just a way of Netanyahu trying to stave off the corruption case and hold onto power? I mean is it more politically motivated?
It worked, didn't it? Within three of four days, the govenment that was about to replace him fell through.

I do think Netanyahu tried to create an escalation in Jerusalem and to cause some conflict between jewish and arabs in Israel, as that new govenment - which was headed by a right wing man - was going to enjoy the support of one of the Arab parties.

Did he know exactly what will happen? No. Did he expect it to go this far? I'm not he didn't, and that the Hamas response was a surprise. But he was desperate and that was the last throw of the dice for him. He got what he wanted, and I'm sure he doesn't care about the cost. It's all about his survival, and feck everything else. He's been hampering the country for years now, but he's still got tons of support from idiots who see him as king and the only one who can lead Israel (As after 12 years of him in office, so many don't really know anything else).
 

Carolina Red

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It worked, didn't it? Within three of four days, the govenment that was about to replace him fell through.

I do think Netanyahu tried to create an escalation in Jerusalem and to cause some conflict between jewish and arabs in Israel, as that new govenment - which was headed by a right wing man - was going to enjoy the support of one of the Arab parties.

Did he know exactly what will happen? No. Did he expect it to go this far? I'm not he didn't, and that the Hamas response was a surprise. But he was desperate and that was the last throw of the dice for him. He got what he wanted, and I'm sure he doesn't care about the cost. It's all about his survival, and feck everything else. He's been hampering the country for years now, but he's still got tons of support from idiots who see him as king and the only one who can lead Israel (As after 12 years of him in office, so many don't really know anything else).
This is valuable insight here. Thank you.
 

lefty_jakobz

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It worked, didn't it? Within three of four days, the govenment that was about to replace him fell through.

I do think Netanyahu tried to create an escalation in Jerusalem and to cause some conflict between jewish and arabs in Israel, as that new govenment - which was headed by a right wing man - was going to enjoy the support of one of the Arab parties.

Did he know exactly what will happen? No. Did he expect it to go this far? I'm not he didn't, and that the Hamas response was a surprise. But he was desperate and that was the last throw of the dice for him. He got what he wanted, and I'm sure he doesn't care about the cost. It's all about his survival, and feck everything else. He's been hampering the country for years now, but he's still got tons of support from idiots who see him as king and the only one who can lead Israel (As after 12 years of him in office, so many don't really know anything else).
Sad to see one mans vain hope of clinging to power resulting in so much death and destruction in a country.
I just hope for both sides that there is better days ahead.
 

VidaRed

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We're here, just not heard enough. Some fear to talk, those who do are mostly on the periphery of things. Most of the media toes the line of the right wing - which is the majority - and avoids confrontation on that matter as it's only interested in ratings and income. There are also more and more representative of the right - or simply Netanyahu supporters - in the media and panels.

And yes, tons of Israeli's also don't care. Some of them see anyone who isn't Jewish as a lesser person. Others can't let of the bombings and terror attacks following the Oslo agreement.
What you describe is happening all around the world. Moderate, liberal and leftists have been smashed to pieces. Whenever loony right wingers take hold of enough countries expect a world war or something because these twats can only thrive in times of hatred and killing.
 

dumbo

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@lefty_jakobz did you make any such accusation that Israel has identical policies with Apartheid South Africa or that the two governments were in anyway 'identical'? as Fearless seems to be suggesting. I can't seem to find any.
 

lefty_jakobz

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@lefty_jakobz did you make any such accusation that Israel has identical policies with Apartheid South Africa or that the two governments were in anyway 'identical'? as Fearless seems to be suggesting. I can't seem to find any.
No I just said Israel is an apartheid state as thats what I believe they are. One rule for Israelis (Jews/Arabs/Christian Israelis) and an entirely different rule for the Palestinians.
 

dumbo

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Please provide an exact list of the shared identical policies that apartheid SA has with Israel re your accusation.

The key word being 'identical'.

Don't give me any 'in spirit' bollox.
I did a thread search for the term "identical" and I see no accusation made by @lefty_jakobz .

I'm not sure if it is obfuscation, poor comprehension or something else on you behalf but none of your demands are necessary or even helpful in the drawing of parallels (or in making any criticisms of such parallels) between Israel and Apartheid South Africa. The very idea that a system of government in South Africa from almost 30 years ago would have 'identical policies' to a government in the Middle East today regardless of their shared or differing ideologies displays a weird ignorance. The Apartheid South African government itself had policies that were not 'identical' 'policies to previous iterations of the same system.

Your post makes you look arrogant, petulant, puerile and a fool. However I will not suggest you are any of those things, and I will give you the good grace of believing your errors were in good faith and were simply a product of you being out of your depth.
 

space

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Dock workers in Livorno Italy, today refuse to load a ship with supplies bound for Israel, they stand for solidarity with Palestinians
So cool.

I will be joining one of the many marches across the UK tomorrow (today technically!) too. The tide is changing!
 

lefty_jakobz

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So cool.

I will be joining one of the many marches across the UK tomorrow (today technically!) too. The tide is changing!
I think people saw the forced evictions and realised that that wasnt right and with it being all over social media the groundswell of feeling just grew and grew.

Even with MSM biased covering of the news the real truth is getting out to people and they do not agree with what is happening over there. Maybe this time change for the Palestinians will come.
 

Foxbatt

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I just saw the BBC video where a building collapsed while they were filming. The fire bomb that was seen would have evaporated anyone there. It's so inhumane.
The Austrians are flying the Israeli flag on their Chancellery. It's a fecking disgrace.