Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Fewer Tweets, More Discussion

owlo

Full Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
3,252
I don’t necessarily see the air strikes as an overstep. From a military standpoint, they are massively restrained & targeted. The collateral damage is unfortunate, but expected & inevitable. The air strikes are somewhat proportional to the rocket attacks in their current scope.

If a wider bombing campaign erupts or IDF forces enter into Gaza on the ground, that would definitely constitute a shift in aggression in my mind.

The only effective recourse for me would then be reduction in future financial aid & stopping whatever aid was in the pipeline. That would be the only acute way to affect Israel, it seems.
Fair enough! From a military standpoint it's ok, but some strike targets seem political/punitive, as opposed to strategic. I'm not sure that withdrawing aid is even possible; much like China they are hugely entangled economically, and the US relies on Israel for tech and intelligence in a few areas.

Its about 70/30 in favor of the Israeli side in the US at the moment, although sympathy for the Palestinians has been slowly gaining over the past few years.



I think Netenyahu has a two pronged strategy. First, use the conflict to advance his political survival (mission accomplished apparently). Second, hammer Hamas into submission by taking out as much of their weapons and development infrastructure as possible and in the process kill as many of their members as possible (including where possible, its leaders). Once those two are accomplished, it will probably coincide with growing international outrage and the US nagging him behind the scenes to knock it off, that (assuming the Hamas rockets stop) he will then be incentived to deescalate.
This is the last poll I found: https://www.pewforum.org/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ (My numbers were wrong a bit and it's old as I suspected, it's around a 3% advantage to Palestinians.) I take your point that voting is on a knife edge currently though, and they really can't afford to lose any support over this. Is there any recent polls on this?

I agree with the latter unfortunately.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
129,965
Location
Hollywood CA
Fair enough! From a military standpoint it's ok, but some strike targets seem political/punitive, as opposed to strategic. I'm not sure that withdrawing aid is even possible; much like China they are hugely entangled economically, and the US relies on Israel for tech and intelligence in a few areas.



This is the last poll I found: https://www.pewforum.org/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ (My numbers were wrong a bit and it's old as I suspected, it's around a 3% advantage to Palestinians.) I take your point that voting is on a knife edge currently though, and they really can't afford to lose any support over this. Is there any recent polls on this?

I agree with the latter unfortunately.
Gallup just released a new poll a few weeks ago.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/340331/americans-favor-israel-warming-palestinians.aspx
 

snk123

New Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
2,733
How easy to say these 8 words when you are not on the other side.
Makes me sick - I don't want to say it, but I do hope people doing this and justifying this end up in a similar situation some time in their lives.
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,539
The collateral damage is unfortunate, but expected & inevitable.
Love this line of argument!

Casualty reports are hard to verify because Hamas controls the media (even the international press) inside the Gaza Strip, but it appears that more than 50 Palestinians have been killed. Some of these people are entirely innocent non-combatants, including children. This is an unspeakable tragedy. It is also one of the unavoidable burdens of political power, of Zionism’s dream turned into the reality of self-determination.
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-bad-optics-of-fighting-for-your

Time for an update to an old classic I think.
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
41,577
Location
Florida
Fair enough! From a military standpoint it's ok, but some strike targets seem political/punitive, as opposed to strategic. I'm not sure that withdrawing aid is even possible; much like China they are hugely entangled economically, and the US relies on Israel for tech and intelligence in a few areas.



This is the last poll I found: https://www.pewforum.org/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ (My numbers were wrong a bit and it's old as I suspected, it's around a 3% advantage to Palestinians.) I take your point that voting is on a knife edge currently though, and they really can't afford to lose any support over this. Is there any recent polls on this?

I agree with the latter unfortunately.
Impossible to disentangle war & politics obviously.

The difference in the bombing is when it morphs from tactics to strategy. Targeted surgical bombing could can often be considered tactical because it often doesn’t affect long term change due to its localized effect & its taxation / degradation on the military’s infrastructure.

If the campaign becomes wider & more indiscriminate, then a strategic shift is apparent. That could cause quantitative pushback by allies.

But even then, that pushback could only be superficial & pro forma.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
How many decades have the Palestinians tried? They absolutely need to get rid of Hamas and Abbas. But Abbas and the Americans and the Israelis would not let anyone competent or charismatic get their heads up.
 

VorZakone

What would Kenny G do?
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
32,618
The power structure of the country is such that we're probably a couple of decades off from it being 50/50. It will take a brand new generation of kids growing up and gaining power to see any substantive change.
Yup. Demographic trends are sometimes the only factor that change a country's internal power structure.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,460
Location
The Pink Torpedo Club
Makes me sick - I don't want to say it, but I do hope people doing this and justifying this end up in a similar situation some time in their lives.
Who are you wishing ill on? The Israeli's for defending themselves against Jihad or the Jihadists literally inviting death and destruction on their own people?
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,081
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Its about 70/30 in favor of the Israeli side in the US at the moment, although sympathy for the Palestinians has been slowly gaining over the past few years.
It's not that simple though because over a majority also supports Palestinian statehood and if there was polling on the specific actions of Israel. It's definitely not as simple as saying if a majority of the US population supported Palestine that somehow US policy would change when Israel hardliners have a massively powerful lobby and Palestine has nothing of note.
 

VorZakone

What would Kenny G do?
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
32,618
How many decades have the Palestinians tried? They absolutely need to get rid of Hamas and Abbas. But Abbas and the Americans and the Israelis would not let anyone competent or charismatic get their heads up.
The Palestinian side is bigger than just Hamas. They also have Fatah as another party but if I recall correctly there's been internal rivalry between Fatah and Hamas.

For the Palestinians to become more powerful I reckon they need a unified organisation instead of the current internal strife.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
129,965
Location
Hollywood CA
Impossible to disentangle war & politics obviously.

The difference in the bombing is when it morphs from tactics to strategy. Targeted surgical bombing could can often be considered tactical because it often doesn’t affect long term change due to its localized effect & its taxation / degradation on the military’s infrastructure.

If the campaign becomes wider & more indiscriminate, then a strategic shift is apparent. That could cause quantitative pushback by allies.

But even then, that pushback could only be superficial & pro forma.
Also worth noting that Hamas seem to have developed the capability to manufacture rockets inside Gaza, which if true, means the Israelis are likely to continue bombing until they think they're removed that capability. Its one thing to destroy tunnels and pressure the Egyptians to clamp down on smuggling via Iran and Syria, its another for Hamas to have an organic capability to make everything by themselves.
 

Dr. Dwayne

Self proclaimed tagline king.
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
97,254
Location
Nearer my Cas, to thee
Also worth noting that Hamas seem to have developed the capability to manufacture rockets inside Gaza, which if true, means the Israelis are likely to continue bombing until they think they're removed that capability. Its one thing to destroy tunnels and pressure the Egyptians to clamp down on smuggling via Iran and Syria, its another for Hamas to have an organic capability to make everything by themselves.
I watched this video the other day. Pretty interesting.

 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
129,965
Location
Hollywood CA
It's not that simple though because over a majority also supports Palestinian statehood and if there was polling on the specific actions of Israel. It's definitely not as simple as saying if a majority of the US population supported Palestine that somehow US policy would change when Israel hardliners have a massively powerful lobby and Palestine has nothing of note.
Yes agreed. Even if it was 50/50, it would still be tilted in favor of the political power structure of the US, which would favor the pro-Israel side.
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
41,577
Location
Florida
the word inevitable carries a lot of implicit assumptions.
It’s silly to divorce reality from a situation due to emotions. That’s creating a fairytale, an alternative reality.

Okay, change the term to ‘unavoidable.’ Of course, the quick, almost pedantic response to ‘unavoidable’ will be ‘well, if no bomb was dropped, then there wouldn’t be collateral damage,’ but this situation is past that.
 

snk123

New Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
2,733
Who are you wishing ill on? The Israeli's for defending themselves against Jihad or the Jihadists literally inviting death and destruction on their own people?
I hope you have children one day and you get in a brawl and the other guy goes after your children instead of you - only then you'll understand.
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,539
The Palestinian side is bigger than just Hamas. They also have Fatah as another party but if I recall correctly there's been internal rivalry between Fatah and Hamas.

For the Palestinians to become more powerful I reckon they need a unified organisation instead of the current internal strife.
they had a mostly-unified organisation for a few decades. one of the reasons they don't anymore is because of israeli action to build a religious alternative to rally around:

Apart from the obvious parallels with divide-and-rule from the colonial era, the Indian govt did a similar tactic when facing insurgency in Punjab - funding the most religiously radical faction - this ended up with a siege at the Sikh Golden Temple, and then the PM murdered by her bodyguards.
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
41,577
Location
Florida
World? Just quoted a caf member saying its inevitable.
Collateral damage in a military conflict is inevitable, unavoidable, bound to happen, etc.

Ordnance expended from both sides kills children. We’ve seen evidence of this in the past 48 hours.
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,539
It’s silly to divorce reality from a situation due to emotions. That’s creating a fairytale, an alternative reality.

Okay, change the term to ‘unavoidable.’ Of course, the quick, almost pedantic response to ‘unavoidable’ will be ‘well, if no bomb was dropped, then there wouldn’t be collateral damage,’ but this situation is past that.
I'm saying that you believe that a terror bombing campaign that kills children is inevitable, ignores the structure of the conflict, what precipitated it now (in 2021) and generally. That bombing is inevitable is one point of view, it is not The Truth.
 

snk123

New Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
2,733
Collateral damage in a military conflict is inevitable, unavoidable, bound to happen, etc.

Ordnance expended from both sides kills children. We’ve seen evidence of this in the past 48 hours.
How many Israeli children have been killed in this "conflict"?
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
41,577
Location
Florida
No, if I was emotional about this I'd have been banned a while ago. I'm saying that you believe that a terror bombing campaign that kills children is inevitable, ignores the structure of the conflict, what precipitated it now (in 2021) and generally.

That bombing is inevitable is one point of view, it is not The Truth.
Ordnance expended from both sides has killed children in the past 48 hours. Both of these campaigns are employing terror as a weapon.

You’re simply putting words into my mouth now. I never said ‘bombing is inevitable.’
 

Ali Dia

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
14,133
Location
Souness's Super Sub/George Weahs Talented Cousin
Who are you wishing ill on? The Israeli's for defending themselves against Jihad or the Jihadists literally inviting death and destruction on their own people?
:lol: :lol:

the hypocrisy dripping off the screen

Your country created and sustained these so called enemies through sheer greed. It’s not just Palestine that despises you. The world can see.